Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Friday 16th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I want to make one brief point. I agree with the speakers who have contributed so far that we need clarity and truth. The issue here is the decision to be made. If someone wants to commit suicide, they are deciding whether or not they wish to die. This Bill is not about that at all. It is about people who are dying, and the only question for them is how they die and whether they can die with dignity. That is an entirely different question, and it is extremely important that the Bill is absolutely clear about that distinction.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I hate to cross swords with the noble Baroness, for whom I have enormous respect, but frankly she is wrong. This is about accelerating a death by wilful means, and there is no case for ambiguity here. The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, has made a powerful speech and I endorse all that he said. There is no case for ambiguity. We are talking about terminally ill people who have decided— often, I imagine, after long and careful thought and in consideration of their families—that they want to bring forward the termination. That is suicide, and they are going to be assisted. It would be in the interests not only of clarity but of honesty to make the Bill the “assisted suicide Bill”, because then we would know what we are talking about and people in the country would know what we are talking about. There is a powerful case for the Bill and a powerful case against it, but there is no case at all for fudging it.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to speak on this issue and against the amendment. Some colleagues will know that shortly before I entered this House, my partner died of a very aggressive cancer known as angiosarcoma. It came back swiftly and his death, I am certain, was assisted. During that period at the brilliant Royal Marsden Hospital, I was absolutely clear that if my husband of six years and partner of 31 years was to die, I wanted to die with him. I raise this not out of any sentiment or emotion, but for the very clarity that we need when dealing with assisted dying. I was healthy and wanted to commit suicide to end a healthy life. My partner—my husband—was facing a death that could happen in a week, three days or three months. To see him almost completely out of his senses because of the morphine, but still aware that he was unable to breathe, offered me clarity enough that I wanted to commit suicide and that my husband, who was dying, needed his death accelerated. With respect to noble Lords who are proposing this amendment, it will not bring clarity; it will, sadly, do the reverse.

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[Lord Dobbs]

Far from deliberately ignoring the word, I would like to turn to another point that I think will answer the noble Baroness’s question precisely. If we insist on using the word “suicide”, as required by the amendment, we could end up with entirely unintended and counterproductive consequences. When the Bill becomes law—as I believe eventually it will—if it legalises suicide rather than assisted dying, might that not tend to make all forms of suicide more acceptable? It would become the thin end of the wedge, the slippery slope, by making suicide in general more acceptable. That is not what I want. “Suicide” is the wrong terminology because this is a different matter from the other types of death that come under the determination of suicide.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord Dobbs]

May I just finish this sentence? It might help bring about the very outcome that the opponents of the Bill seek to avoid.

[Lord Cormack]

If I ask my noble friend to give me a cup of hemlock, telling him that I am going to drink it, and he gives it to me and I drink it, have I committed suicide or not?

[Lord Dobbs]

The Bill is nothing to do with going off into a corner and getting someone to assist you in a death like that. This is a totally different legal and medical environment. We will all die.

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[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

My Lords, I have added my name in support of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but I also support the other amendments in this group. I do not intend to go over the reasons already stated so fluently by both noble Lords; I just want to emphasise the point of this whole range of amendments, which is quite simply to make this Bill much safer. If it is eventually passed, with these amendments people will have much more confidence in it than they have as it stands at present.

As we know, a great number of doctors—probably the majority—are opposed to any Bill such as this and therefore we are bound to get a situation where people who are sympathetic to what is proposed will look round for a doctor who shares their point of view. Clearly, we need to avoid that. Therefore, instead of just one doctor, we need two doctors, as the amendment says. One of the doctors needs to know the patient very well and needs to be not just registered if retired but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, currently licensed. These kinds of safeguards will ensure that the Bill, if eventually passed, has the confidence of the public.

There is also the very difficult question of diagnosis. I am a member of the review body of the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger—the Liverpool care pathway. It has certainly been brought home to us that diagnosing a person’s death is a very inexact science, and indeed we are calling for more research on this.

Perhaps, on this very subject, the Committee will allow a brief moment of levity in relation to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Winston, on the Lockerbie bomber. He had three months to live but, as someone said, it was three months in Scotland—with due apologies to all Scottish noble Lords here. I apologise for levity on what is a very serious matter. However, I very much hope that the supporters of the Bill will accept the majority of the amendments in this group, as they will undoubtedly give the general public more confidence in it.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, if we are to have this Bill, it is very important, as the noble and right reverend Lord said, that there should be confidence in it. I just want to address a few brief remarks to the amendment of my noble friend Lord Carlile of Berriew, to which the noble and right reverend Lord is also a signatory.

I remember as a young Member of Parliament in Staffordshire talking to a rural general practitioner who had been there for many years. He made the point to me—I have quoted it before—that a doctor can only truly know his patient if he knows him in his home as well as in the surgery. I know that things have changed a lot since then but I treasure my relationship with my general practitioner—it is one of the most important relationships that I have. I like to feel that I can talk uninhibitedly to him, and indeed I can.

It is very important that we avoid falling into a trap. Because of the widespread reluctance among the medical profession to support the Bill, we could fall into the trap of certain doctors being available for hire. That is the last thing that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, would want. I have never at any stage doubted for a single second his utter sincerity and his honourable motives. That should be taken as read throughout the House, and I believe that it is. However, where a large number of medical practitioners feel, for the best reasons of conscience, that they cannot sign up to this Bill, there will be a danger—I put it no higher than that but one has seen it in the field of abortion—that some doctors will in effect be for hire. That has to be guarded against and one of the best ways of doing so is to ensure that there is an amendment similar to that moved by my noble friend. I hope that, when he comes to respond, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will accept that.

I have grave reservations about this Bill. I do not want the Bill but I understand why many do. Therefore, if it, or a Bill like it in the next Parliament, is to go on to the statute book, the safeguards must be real, comprehensive and absolute. If a doctor is to sign a document, that should happen only after lengthy conversations with the patient concerned—after a real discussion. I would like to feel that during that discussion the doctor, whatever his or her personal views, can play devil’s advocate and point out all aspects of this ultimate decision that the patient is on the verge of making. However, that can happen only if there is a real knowledge of the patient and a proper relationship between the doctor and the patient. Six months is a short enough time. I have been registered with my general practitioner for over 30 years. Many noble Lords will have had similar long relationships and others will have had shorter ones. But before you talk to a doctor you feel the need to know him, and he or she needs to know you. The amendment moved by my noble friend is modest but it helps to provide a safeguard which, if a Bill such as this is to go on to the statute book, we would all like to feel is in place.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton]

My Lords—

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I could not agree more with the approach that underlies what the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, has said. That is why, although I accept and admire the spirit in which it is offered, I do not think that it is a sensible amendment, because it would lead to so many situations that would then not have been covered by a Bill which, on this hypothesis, had been passed. It would therefore be a very bad idea to accept it. I acknowledge and accept the idea that you should not pass a Bill that then leads to problems, which is exactly what the amendment would do. However, I anticipate that the noble Lord would say that he had the precise reverse in mind.

[Lord Cormack]

I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving way, and particularly for the references that he has made to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, my noble friend Lord Jopling, and me. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, he understandably poured some cold water on the four-year limit, but would he accept that a limit of a reasonable time would help allay the fears that my noble friend Lord Jopling, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and I all have?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

As I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, I am more than happy to talk about it. The example of the cancer specialist or the motor neurone disease specialist makes me instinctively, having considered it quite carefully, against the idea of any limit, but I am more than happy to discuss it.