Lord Chancellor and Law Officers (Constitution Committee Report)

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 20th July 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I am slightly taken by surprise to be speaking now.

Like others, I begin by saying that this is the one thing that unites us all. I am absolutely delighted that my friend the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, is here today; he made a typically concise, precise and witty speech, and we long for him to make more.

For me, one of the key remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, who began the debate with a very measured and compelling speech, was about a previous Lord Chancellor—who has been referred to several times, but named, I think, only twice—communicating thoughts by tweet. Does not that say it all? Does not that illustrate why my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier talked about many able lawyers regarding Parliament as poison and not feeling able to follow a vocation in public service, as he most notably has done?

I take a slightly more worried view of the state of the constitution and democracy than my noble friend Lord Howell, for whom I have enormous respect and whom I first met at a Conservative Party conference in Lincolnshire as long ago as 1962. I believe that our democracy and constitution stand at a crossroads. One of the reasons for that is the subject we are discussing today: the role of the Lord Chancellor and the Justice Secretary following the abolition of the old role of Lord Chancellor and the creation of a new department which is perpetually—it almost has to be—under tension.

Prisons are very important, but they are a highly political subject. One has to think only of the debates in which I took part in another place, in which I strongly opposed the privatisation of prisons. There is of course a role for someone—call him the Justice Secretary, if you like, but I would not—in charge of prisons. It is a very important role, because we have consistently failed with our prisons; they are not, for the most part, places of rehabilitation, but rather colleges of crime.

For me, the Lord Chancellor should be one of the two ultimate Ministers. My noble friend Lord Norton, in a very thoughtful speech, talked about the Prime Minister having all these responsibilities. I believe that ultimate responsibilities, following the most solemn oath taken by any politician in our country, should rest with the Lord Chancellor. I believe that he should be a lawyer, and that it is important that he is learned in the law. I also believe that he should be, so far as it is possible, an apolitical and undivisive figure. At the end of the day, we all depend on the observance of the rule of law, and that should be the ultimate responsibility of the Lord Chancellor. So, while I of course welcome, applaud and pay genuine tribute to this report, I believe that the committee should have gone a step further and recommended the division of responsibility.

My noble friend Lord Sandhurst said that you cannot undo the past. Sadly, you cannot, but you can atone for it. I thought that, in his remarks, he coined the most wonderful oxymoron that I have heard in many a year when he talked about a “pure politician”. However, it is important that whoever is Lord Chancellor is as close to a pure politician as you can be, in the sense that he should be devoid of the acrimony and infighting of party politics.

Infinite damage has been done to our country by a neglect of the Tom Bingham principles—what a marvellous little handbook that is. I had the great good fortune to know Tom Bingham well. I worked closely with him on the Royal Commission on Historical Manuscripts, where he was chairman and I was the senior commissioner. He really nailed it in that book. However, we cannot get away from unfortunate recent events: the illegal Prorogation of Parliament and that extraordinary moment in the other place when the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland stood at the Dispatch Box and said that the Bill would go against the international rule of law, but only a little bit. It reminded me of a marvellous scene in one of the books of my childhood, Mr Midshipman Easy by Captain Marryat, which some noble Lords may remember. In that wonderful Victorian moral tale, a maid gave birth to a child outside wedlock. Her excuse was, “It was only a little one”. You cannot get away with that when you are talking about the rule of law.

I always feel uncomfortable when I talk, as I did in the House the other day, about the abrogation of an international treaty by China over Hong Kong. We cannot give lectures unless we are in a position to say, “We do not do that”. We will get nearer to not doing that in the future if we have a Lord Chancellor who is outside the realm of party politics to a large degree, a member of the Government but an ultimate member, as I said, and one who can indeed step aside and be looked up to.

In his time on the Woolsack, Lord Mackay of Clashfern was looked up to. Yes, he took the Conservative whip, but was he a creature of a Conservative Government? No, he was not. He was an ultimate Minister. We much miss him. We need someone cast in that mould in the future, and I very much hope that that is what we will get.

I am delighted to have had the chance to listen to some fascinating speeches and to take part in this debate. I very much hope that, when my noble and learned friend Lord Bellamy comes to reply, he will be able to give us some comfort and encouragement that the Government really are going to produce an answer very different from, and much more comprehensive and more precise than, the one from which my noble friend Lord Norton quoted so tellingly.

Parole Board Recommendations: Open Conditions

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 25th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

The Secretary of State will of course abide by the recent decision of the High Court and will entirely respect the constitutional position of the Parole Board. I should add that what we are talking about today in relation to the 76 decisions is 32 prisoners serving a mandatory life sentence for murder, 11 serving a discretionary life sentence for rape and various other sexual offences, eight on an IPP sentence for serious sexual offences and another 25 for serious offences, all involving violence against the person.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble and learned friend share my concern that too many people are going to prison? Has a recent assessment been made of the effects of community restorative justice, which I saw in Northern Ireland when I was chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in the other place and which was extremely effective?

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My noble friend makes a very fair point. That is a matter primarily for the Sentencing Council, but the Government will of course keep it under review.

Prisons: Education

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 23rd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, the Government currently spend about £125 million a year on the core programme and a further £30 million on special development strategies. In relation to the future, we are developing new contracts from 2025, and I am sure the question of the budget will arise in that context.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Blower, made the point about rehabilitation being so vital. Can my noble and learned friend publish statistics to show the variable reoffending rates between those who do not get qualifications and various other things from education in prison, and those who do? I think this could be very interesting and salutary information.

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to improving the statistics in this area, and I will investigate whether we can publish that further information.

Prisons: Chaplaincy Service

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

The answer to that, my Lords, is yes.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, bearing in mind that the whole purpose of prison is rehabilitation and that chaplains have a very important role to play in that context, can my noble and learned friend tell me how many prison chaplains of each faith there are at the moment, and whether he is satisfied that this number is sufficient to accomplish the very important task before them?

Probate: Waiting Times

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, I think that I have already conceded that there have been difficulties and some degree of failure in the registry. I understand that the 10-day limit is not intended to apply to the grant of probate, where often complex documents have to be examined and a formal grant of probate issued. My understanding is that the average for digital grants in a straightforward case is currently two to four weeks, although I accept that it is a bit higher with paper applications. The 16 weeks mentioned on the website is a classic and usual example of the Government avoiding overpromising and underdelivering—I would much rather overdeliver and underpromise—but I anticipate that that period will come down. Every effort is being made to correct the issue.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, how far is this bad example of the law’s delay due to more and more people still working from home? If that is a factor, why on earth are the Government introducing a Bill that will allow every newly appointed person to whatever job to opt to work at home for certain parts of it?

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, as far as I am aware, the problems in the probate registry are not related to persons working at home, but I will make further inquiries for my noble friend Lord Cormack. As I say, processing times are coming down. If noble Lords and others involved would care to report to me or my colleague in the other place, Minister Freer, their personal experiences, we are on the case and we will address this issue.

Prison Capacity

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, in relation to the comment from Rhyl in north Wales, I entirely take the point that is being made. Unfortunately, the courts sometimes feel that a short sentence is the only available, or the best, option in those circumstances—and that, as I have already said, is a matter for the courts. As far as IPP prisoners are concerned, the Government will respond to the recent report from the Justice Committee of the other place, I hope next week.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend said that female prisoners were not involved in today’s announcement, and I completely understand that. However, is it not time to move to a stage where men who are physically male are not allowed to share or be incarcerated in women’s prisons? Surely, we can have enough respect for women to end this deeply unfortunate practice.

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, action is being taken on transgender issues in the prison estate. I do not have the details with me, but I will write to my noble friend with the up-to-date position.

Humanist Marriages

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Tuesday 29th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, in a nutshell, the Government’s position is that to lay an order under the 2013 Act solely in favour of humanists would discriminate against other groups—Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and so forth—in permitting them to have a particular form of marriage not available to other groups. The Government’s position is that we must go forward together and solve the whole problem. I will elaborate in a moment on what the problem is.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, we need to get a move on here. As one who believes very fervently in Christian marriage but even more in the institution of marriage, I ask: how can it be sensible to allow a wedding to take place in a registry office but not to allow humanists, who have their own ethics, to have a proper marriage ceremony? We need to get a move on. We had an almost identical Answer last time. Let us have a better one next time.

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

The Law Commission, in a very detailed and well-argued report, took the view that we should proceed as a country to solve the whole problem across all faiths at the same time and not favour a particular group. That is the Government’s position, and we will publish our position shortly.

Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Saturday 10th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is always a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews. When she was talking of her role as a receiver of distinguished foreign visitors, I immediately thought of one of the most unforgettable Members of your Lordships’ House who often did a similar job and told hilarious stories about the encounters that she had. That was, of course, Baroness Trumpington, of whom we all have such affectionate memories.

It has been an extraordinary period since Thursday lunchtime, when that difficult news came through. We all knew from the first moment that we had to expect the worst. I must say that I felt a great privilege in being a Member of your Lordships’ House yesterday. There were some very moving and splendid speeches, as there have been today. I have never, in my nearly 12 years in your Lordships’ House, nor in my 52 years in Parliament, heard better Front-Bench speeches than I heard yesterday in this House. However, the most moving moment for me was when we assembled informally in your Lordships’ Chamber to listen to the first words of our new King, who spoke with a quiet, moving dignity, suffused with deep affection for a wonderful mother.

Not being privileged to be a member of the Privy Council, I had to watch this morning’s Proclamation on television, as did most of us. The King spoke again and he used a few words that I want to dwell on for a moment:

“Even as we grieve, we give thanks.”


That is very important indeed. We are mourning the departure of a Christian monarch who believed in the afterlife. We are mourning the departure of one of the most remarkable women who ever lived, but who died in really wonderful circumstances, in the place that she loved, surrounded by people whom she loved, having just accomplished constitutional duties with panache and good humour, in instituting her last Prime Minister.

We have a lot to be thankful for. Having such a respectable bevvy of Bishops on the Benches, I appeal to them. Of course, what happens in 10 days’ time will be a great state funeral, but can it not also be designated on the service sheet as a service of thanksgiving, since that is what we will be doing? We will be not just mourning but giving thanks for someone who has done her duty better than anyone I can think of.

We have been talking of personal memories. I cannot pretend that I knew Her Majesty, but I had the very great good fortune to meet her on a number of occasions. Two stick in my memory. The first was in 2002. I was the treasurer of the CPA, the senior Opposition position in the CPA. We decided that we would have a conference of Commonwealth parliamentarians. We had an immediate affirmative answer from the Palace that Her Majesty and Prince Philip would be delighted to come, and they came. We met in Lancaster House.

I had two duties. One was to take round Prince Philip while the chairman took round the Queen. Then we all four gathered. I had the job of making a presentation to Her Majesty of a wonderful paper knife, crafted by perhaps our finest female silversmith. The knife had the mace at the end of it. She wielded it and said, “By Jove, that’s got a very good feeling.” Before the end of the day, I had a letter from her office saying that she was already using it and much enjoying it.

We were talking to her about the Commonwealth. As has been mentioned many times—particularly movingly today by the noble Lords, Lord Robertson and Lord Boateng—in a sense she lived for the Commonwealth. From going round with the two of them and talking to Commonwealth parliamentarians, I saw that there was not a country that they had not been to. They knew the intimate history of many of the people who were there and they both manifested a love for this greatest of international organisations.

My other memory is a very personal one. On 20 April 2010, I was at a farewell party at Windsor Castle for the Surveyor of the Queen’s Pictures. The Queen was there, mingling with us. Of course, the next day she was due to be 84. I said what I thought were some appropriate words and also said, “My grandson is six tomorrow and is very thrilled that he shares your birthday.” “Please give him my warmest wishes”, she said. Edward thought this was an extraordinary leg-pull when I rang him up and told him, but it was just typical of her ability to relate not only to significant Commonwealth parliamentarians but to a little boy whom she certainly never met. She cared about her family, as has been said so often.

How do we best thank her and how do we best encourage our new King? We do it, as was touched on last night in a very interesting and powerful speech by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester, by trying to demonstrate the sort of unity for which she always stood. We have a particular responsibility in your Lordships’ House, where party politics is not as acerbic as it is in the other place. She was a person who brought others together. It is clearly the manifest desire of our new King to do the same. We must play our part in doing that.

I end on a note that I never thought I would end on this year, in emphatic agreement with Boris Johnson. He said, in some very remarkable words the other day, that he thought she should go down in history as Elizabeth the Great. I endorse that and I hope that, in due course, that will come to pass. God save the King.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I was three years old when, in a little village in Uganda called Masooli, we all gathered round a very small transistor radio and listened to the broadcast from the abbey of the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth. From then on in every school in Uganda on Empire Day we sang “God save the Queen”. We continue to do it; some still do it now. I stand here as somebody who is quite surprised that this little boy out in Uganda would today be part of the Accession Council and the confirmation of King Charles III. I have mixed emotions.

I want first to echo the words of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York, because on Thursday, as soon as we heard the news that Her Majesty had died, I put on Twitter this message:

“Today Churches Celebrate the Birthday of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II on this day is a great shock & Mary’s Magnificat should be our response: MY SOUL DOTH MAGNIFY THE LORD: & MY SPIRIT HATH REJOICED IN GOD MY SAVIOUR; REGARDED & MAGNIFIED HER”.


I have stood, on a number of occasions, near Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth as she sang the Magnificat. She did not need the words; she knew them. In a real sense, that was her song too. She sang it from the heart because it expressed who she was. Her true greatness was her deep humility in knowing that the Lord in many ways “regarded” her “lowliness” and, by divine providence, made her Queen. For her, being Queen was an act of nobody but God.

Humbleness was, for her, born out of having Jesus Christ at the centre of her living, her thinking and all her goals, her rejoicing and even in moments of sadness. She knew the holy scriptures well and sang many hymns without needing to look at the words. She really imbibed the whole tradition. Therefore, it was also comforting to hear our new King say the same thing about the services that shaped him.

When in her presence, you were the person who mattered when you spoke to her. She never looked around. It was as if you were the only person in the room, and until that conversation ended her eyes were fixed on you and your smile.

Forgive this testimony. I had an audience with her to ask for her permission to step down from my role after an extra year. Her response was, “The decision is yours and yours alone—not me, not anyone else. Give me the date and so it shall be.” I took that to be a command. There was a matter that was causing me great heartache. I told her, and I asked for her prayers. I knelt down and put my hands together. She put hers outside mine. There was this deep moment of silence. I think it lasted about two to three minutes. It was ended by Her Majesty saying, “Amen.” I got up and, friends, whatever burdens I had come with were lifted. It was as if I was with my grandmother, who had a similar effect on me. If you want to know more, you have to wait until my autobiography is published next year. You will get a bit more story because permission has been given to me to write some of those words down.

Her hospitality was amazing. I stayed at Sandringham and at Windsor. I will tell your Lordships a bit about Windsor. At Windsor on her birthday, after dinner she and Prince Philip guided us to the library. They had already arranged with the archivist the section on Uganda. The books were opened and copies were made so that we could take some of this material with us. The thing that most surprised me was to see writing dictated by King Muteesa I requesting Queen Victoria to send missionaries to Uganda, and subsequently a request that Uganda became a protectorate. Those documents are there. I was speechless, really. We ended up in the restored chapel at Windsor. Again, there were silent prayers. I cannot remember how long.

The death of Queen Elizabeth has left all of us with mixed emotions. I want to end with the experience of our eight year-old granddaughter, Abigail. When she saw the news that the Queen had died she cried, uncontrollably and inconsolably. When she calmed down, she said, “I will never see a queen in my lifetime”. She then said, “Long live the King”. Queen Elizabeth rests in glory. Long live King Charles III.

Judicial Review and Courts Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Report stage
Thursday 31st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry but one of the problems of doing this online is that, when the system freezes, you do not have any notes.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Put not your trust in tablets.

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

Keep taking the tablets, my Lords. When we last debated these clauses, a number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, invited and urged me to meet Inquest. I am grateful for that urging, because I had a very productive and informative discussion with it last week on the measures in the Bill and some wider measures. In fact, Justice also attended the meeting. While it is fair to say that there are differences of opinion between us, I assured them that the Government’s priority remains to make certain that the bereaved are at the centre of the coronial process. The measures in the Bill support this priority. We seek to reduce unnecessary procedures in the coroners’ courts and that will, in turn, reduce delays in the inquest process, and reduce again the distress to bereaved families.

The amendments in my name in this group are minor and technical. They are consequential on Clause 39, which allows a coroner to discontinue an investigation should the cause of death “become clear”, and they remove some obsolete references to post-mortems from existing legislation.

Those are the government amendments. However, I am conscious that the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans have other, more substantive amendments in this group. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, will speak on the noble Baroness’s behalf. I will let them propose their amendments before I respond to them.

Nationality and Borders Bill

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

It seems to me that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, and indeed all those in this group have to be right. The idea of offshoring is immoral and it would not be in line with the traditions of this country. It is also impractical; for one thing, it would be horrendously expensive, as the Australian experience shows. Offshoring in Australia has proved as damaging to its exchequer as to the reputation of Australia. Of course, that is not what the high commissioner said. I used to be a diplomat and one tends not to say that sort of thing about one’s own country when on diplomatic duty.

However, the real and biggest reason I am against this provision is that it is illegal. It is a clear breach of the refugee convention. We had this argument before, so I can do it in shorthand: there is no provision in the refugee convention that fits with proposed new subsection (2B)(b) of Schedule 3, which is at line 20, where a safe country is defined as

“a place from which a person will not be removed elsewhere other than in accordance with the Refugee Convention”.

The refugee convention, however, says nothing about removal to third countries, safe or not. It says that a refugee is a refugee in a place when he says he cannot go home, because he will not be protected at home and would like to ask for the protection of the host state in the country where he is. That is what the refugee convention says. It says nothing about how he got there, nothing about a “first safe country” and nothing at all about exporting him somewhere else, so the language of new subsection (2B) in Schedule 3 is a misreading of that convention.

Of course, we know that the Government are deliberately misreading the refugee convention. I still think it would assist our debates greatly if the Government would change their mind and let us see the legal advice which has caused them to take the eccentric view that they take of the convention, and hence to propose Clause 11 and all that follows.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I intervene briefly and for the first time in this debate, provoked into doing so by what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, has just said. It is fundamentally wrong to legislate in a way that obliges you to break international law. It is very simple, but that is it. We do not have islands around our shores where we can gather together vast groups of potential refugees and asylum seekers.

The other day I was reading a review of a book, which has just come out, about the Isle of Man in the Second World War. There was of course great panic about people of German origin—although most of the poor people were of Jewish origin as well—domiciled in this country. They were rounded up and taken there. There are some fairly inspiring stories but also some very depressing stories. We have to tread exceptionally carefully here. We have gone on a lot about global Britain, but if I am to be proud of global Britain, I want to be proud of a country that is upholding the highest international standards.

Although I take on board what my noble friend Lord Horam said a few moments ago—he made a gently forceful speech that deserves consideration—I just cannot for the life of me think that to herd people into encampments in Rwanda and other far distant places is anything other than a repudiation of our standards as a great country. It would be fundamentally wrong for us to go along this line. Treat thy neighbour as thyself. There is a lot of wisdom in the 10 commandments. A bishop should really be saying this rather than me, but I really believe that it is essential that whatever we do is consistent with our record as the great nation that abolished slavery throughout its dominions and before that abolished the slave trade. There were battles in Parliament for both, but my parliamentary hero is William Wilberforce and I do not want to see his reputation traduced.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I have been sitting on my hands because whenever you tell a personal story, it looks as though you are not pleading what the noble Lord talked about—law. We arrived in 1974 and were treated with such great respect, love and care. For about 20 years we travelled on a British travel document. That kind of hospitality was of great help to us all.

The way I read this clause is almost as a revisitation of Guantanamo Bay—a very bad piece of work—or voluntary rendition, whereby people were taken from one country to another to sort out whether they were terrorists or not. This country should not use offshoring. The word “offshore” already does not have a good reputation in terms of money and offshore investment. This is a country that has been the mother of parliaments and the mother of legislation and where the rule of law is what governs all of us. How can we get a third country to take what we call refugees?

I can assure noble Lords that there will be many countries in Africa that will volunteer to do it. The question we have to ask is: how do those seemingly wonderful countries treat their nationals? Do they treat them in the same way that this country does? I would be very doubtful. For the sake of the rule of law, for the sake of this great Parliament and for the sake of the British people who have been very good in welcoming the likes of me, this clause should—please—not become part of the legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I am not trying to avoid it; I am saying that that is about as far as I can go. However, I will try to outline any further detail that I can in writing to noble Lords. Noble Lords will know—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I will not take the intervention just yet. I do not generally make misleading comments standing at the Dispatch Box. I will further write.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I am most grateful and apologise. Can my noble friend say whether she expects that, by the time we reach Report, she will be able to answer that question? Can she also say whether there are any countries with which we are close to agreement and, if so, what countries those are?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I cannot say what countries we are in discussion with, other than confirming to my noble friend Lady Stroud that we are having some very positive discussions with France. On the other question, I cannot acquiesce to going further at this point, because I do not want in any way to make comments that might put children in danger. As I have just said to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, I will write in as much detail as I can following Committee.