Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Cashman Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)]

My Lords, as a former Chief Whip, I am all too well aware of the dangers of listening to a debate. However, I have to tell my noble friend Lord Camrose that I have been persuaded by what I have heard so far, and I am afraid that he may have a great deal of work to do to persuade me not to vote for this amendment.

[Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I have reluctantly stayed out of this debate precisely because I am a copyright holder with copyrights stretching back over several decades. But, having listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and others, it would be entirely wrong of me to remain silent.

I have to express deep concern and disbelief that the Labour Party of Jennie Lee and of Chris Smith is proposing such a way forward. You cannot on the one hand talk about the importance to every single member of our country—whether at school or going to the high arts of opera—of the importance of the creative industries, and then, with legislation, begin their demolition.

The Government’s approach is entirely wrong. Yes, they can strip away my rights. Indeed, only last week I received the huge sum of £1.76 for a performance. But that £1.76 represented a contract between an artist and someone who used the artist’s material. We are destroying that principle of contract.

These amendments seem sensible, rational and reasonable, and they open the door for the development of AI in exactly the same way as when, as one of the offices of the British Actors’ Equity Association in the early 1990s, we were tasked with negotiating with the BBC, ITV and Channel 4 on the brilliant and new innovation of cable and satellite. We negotiated in order to try to protect artists, some hugely successful and some not so successful. Those negotiations took two years—although we do not have two years now—and at the start of them we were told that we would never reach an agreement. We reached an agreement, which has been adapted and adopted for all other forms of the use of television and audio material.

Are the Government seriously telling us that we do not have the wit, intelligence or drive as a country to come to an adequate negotiation that protects copyright and advances AI? If they are seriously telling us that, I urge noble Lords to disregard it. I urge your Lordships most of all to vote not for the Elton Johns or the Paul McCartneys but for that one person who might be relying on that £1.76, and support these amendments.

[Baroness Cavendish of Little Venice (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on a barnstorming speech.

Many of the points that I wanted to make have already been made by others, so I will be brief. I declare my interest as a rights holder. I am slightly worried that this is beginning to sound like special pleading, and I hope that is not the effect it has. I am also the daughter of two writers, and I recognise that £1.76, because sometimes that was it. That £1.76, as the noble Lord has just said, is a contract. There are many artists, musicians and writers in this country who get money for their books in libraries or tiny amounts of royalties, and those royalties are keeping them alive. They enable them to create original work and earn their living.

I believe that generative AI will be transformational and largely for the good. However, it is perfectly possible to distinguish between meaningful progress that advances humanity—we heard in an earlier debate about AI tracking naval ships, and brilliant advances are being made in medicine—and plain theft of intellectual property. That theft has been going on now for several years, and the people who are being stolen from are not even aware that their work has been stolen.

For that reason, I do not actually believe it is necessary to seek a balance. This is not about balance; it is about implementing and upholding the rule of law. The proposed rights reservation from the Government would reverse the fundamental principle of UK copyright law, which, as others have said, was established in 1710—I think it was 1710, not 1709, but we may differ. My mother wrote the Handbook of Copyright in British Publishing Practice in 1974, so I have some visceral memory of all this. The Government are proposing to reverse the fundamental protections that have made us a gold standard in the world. The amendments propose to make UK copyright law enforceable in an age of generative AI—to respond and expand our laws, in what is in my view an extremely proportionate way, to recognise the rights of creators.

We have all learned something in this debate that is astonishing to me: apparently the Government have not conducted an economic impact assessment of their proposals on one of our most successful industries. I find that completely shocking. It suggests a lack of seriousness on the part of this Government and those who are making these proposals, which I hope the Minister will address later.

If artists, musicians and creators cannot earn a living, there will be no original content and no more content for AI to build on. That is surely in itself an economic argument that somewhat undermines the vague idea that innovation cannot happen without the wholesale abolition of our proud tradition of copyright. Chris Bryant said last night that something must change and that we cannot do nothing. I agree, but what we must do is double down.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Cashman Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 19th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Dundee (Con)]

My Lords, here is a very useful amendment proposed by the noble Baroness at this stage of the proceedings.

For the creative industries, it offers certainty that a transparency regime will be in place within 18 months of Royal Assent. Within a timetable of their own choosing, it also leaves the Government free to provide new legislation on the wider issues of personal likeness and other connected matters.

I will reiterate how this amendment, thereby already consistent with government policy, is also consistent with various articles and conventions of the human rights affiliation of the 46 member states of the Council of Europe, of which the United Kingdom remains a prominent member and of whose education committee I am a recent chairman.

First, Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights protects the right to privacy, including of personal data. Article 1 of its initial protocol protects property rights, including intellectual property rights and copyright.

Secondly, Article 5 of the Council of Europe Convention on Cybercrime prohibits system interference by, for example, the transmission of computer data, while its Article 10 stipulates:

“Offences related to infringements of copyright and related rights”.


Thirdly, Article 11 of the 2024 Council of Europe Framework Convention on Artificial Intelligence and Human Rights, Democracy and the Rule of Law safeguards privacy and personal data.

As has been much emphasised, the noble Baroness’s amendment not least achieves consistency with our UK tradition of protecting copyright as well—notably evident as early as the Statute of Anne 1710 granting legal protection to publishers of books.

Here and abroad, the United Kingdom must continue to assist that good practice. We are enormously grateful to the noble Baroness for this further proposed amendment. We must strongly support it.

[Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I speak reluctantly on the issue because, as I have said before, I am a rights holder. I refer to my register of interests. Following the speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, very little needs to be said. It was absolutely brilliant and searing.

I say to the Government Front Bench, as a member of the creative industry, I do not want to be told how much we are cherished and then see legislation that will begin to destroy us. We have heard much about the rights of those large rights holders, such as Paul McCartney and Elton John. I inform the House that I once received a housewarming present from Elton John, but it was 25 years ago, so it holds no influence over me.

I have thought long about this since my previous contribution. Many years ago, a dear friend of mine who is no longer with us, the wonderful character actor, Claire Davenport, had a very early and successful career. Then, like for so many other creatives, it waned. She used to ring me and say, “Chuck, I can’t believe it. My day’s been made. I’ve got a cheque”. A cheque would arrive from something that she had done maybe 10, 15 or 20 years ago. Claire, who was famous for her ample bosom, used to take the cheque, rub it across the ample cherished parts of her talent and say, “Now I can eat”.

That is the reality of what happens to people who receive repayment for the use of their creative material. If you strip that away, you are stripping away rights often from those most in need.

The creative industries have long taken on board the challenges and we have worked to find the technology to turn them around. We can do so again. This amendment is a brilliant, sensible way forward and I urge every single Member of your Lordships’ House to stand firm with the creative industries, and those yet to come, and support this amendment.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, I support Motion C1 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I applaud her tenacity and dogged determination to make a difference to the future of our creative industries. She has fought tirelessly to get the Government to consider and accept her amendments.

This amendment, if accepted, will tell the British creative industries that the Government understand their concerns and worries for the future. Most of all, it will secure our children’s future and not sell them down the river. It will show them that there will be future opportunities for employment open to them, that their creativity will be not stolen but compensated for, and that their copyrights will be respected. I hope the Government will listen and put in place the safeguards that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is asking for. Transparency is key. Creators need to know whether they are being ripped off, and by whom, when their work is being used. Transparency will give them confidence.

I have been fortunate to have carved out a career in the creative industries over the last 55 years, and I am still benefiting from it. I feel it is my duty to ensure that those just starting off can have the opportunity to achieve the same. I urge the Government to listen to the huge concerns of those in the creative industries who look to the Government to protect their world. Our award-winning, highly acclaimed British creative industries are considered the best in the world, but they are on the brink of falling apart if they are not protected. We also need to protect the possibility of creative work for the next generation, and not steal their future—something I am sure the Government would not like to have on their conscience. I hope the Government will listen to my plea, and those of Members from around the House, and act on the noble Baroness’s vital common-sense amendment before it is too late. I declare an interest as per the register.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Cashman Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

One of the things that I believed then and still believe now is that people have a right to a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work, that people have the right to be able to own their property and that they have the right to sell their labour in a fair and reasonable manner. I am afraid that the Government are running headstrong against that basic principle, which again I would have thought could be accepted on both sides of the House.

What are we dealing with here? We are dealing with something we are absolutely brilliant at. I do not know how many noble Lords have seen the Channel 4 programme “The Piano”, where people turn up at railway stations and play the piano. The talent in this country that we do not know about is amazing—unbelievable talent, people who can compose and play the piano to a level that is just extraordinary. Those people will have no chance to develop their careers if their work can just be scooped up by big tech.

Now I am going to say something that will upset the Minister, and she will say that I am being unfair to the Government. It just looks to me as though crony capitalism and the Government have got into bed together and the Government are being told, “Just give this away and we will give you data centres outside your main cities”—quite where the electricity is going to come from to run this is another issue, but I will not divert—“and you will be leaders in the world”. Only a very naive Minister would believe that kind of nonsense. Where does it end?

What makes the Government think that the other place, or the Government, have the authority to give away people’s property and their right to earn a living? That is the issue raised here today. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that, although I deprecate extended ping-pong, on this occasion, the House of Lords is doing its duty, which is speaking up for the interests of the country. I hope that the Government will listen, that the noble Baroness’s amendment will be carried with a good majority, and that the Government will think again.

[Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I find it worrying that I agree with every word of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, but it is probably more worrying for him.

Now is not the time for long speeches but for commitment. I support this amendment, and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, on so brilliantly moving it. I refer to my registered interests as a rights holder. To the Government Minister, for whom I have the greatest respect, I say that, as a rights holder and a royalties holder, reassurances do not, sadly, pay the rent, but royalties do.

When it comes to technology, creatives have embraced every single challenge of developing technology—from the printing press to cable and satellite television, television on demand, streaming, Spotify and so on. We have always proceeded on the basis that the user must pay. Now is not the time to deflect from that principle and now is not too late for the Government to embrace that principle.

It is incomprehensible for me to believe that jobbing actors, singers, writers and other creatives—people at the beginning or at the end of their careers—will be able to police the internet in such a way as to find those using their material so that they can then opt in or opt out. That is not part of the reality of people in the creative professions.

It is for those most in need of the protection of copyright that I speak—it is they who will lose the most. It is for them that I urge your Lordships to support the amendment. It is reasonable, and I believe any reasonable Secretary of State should welcome and indeed embrace it.

Finally, for the record, much has been said about Minister Peter Kyle. He is a good, decent, fair and highly intelligent person, and a friend of many years. I say to him and to the Government that the art of compromise is to give a little in order that we all win a lot—and I am not talking about the dog food. Therefore, I think it is in the Government’s domain to move forward, to compromise and to accept the amendment as—to quote the Minister—a workable solution, because it makes sense.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her opening statement. Once again, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, in her mission to protect the future of our creative industries, its rights and its intellectual property. Technological progress does not always make things better for humanity and it often comes with hidden long-term consequences. That is why the Government have to be wise and put measures in place to protect us, before it is too late.

So many people have contacted me to express their anger that the Government are selling them down the river. I feel it is my duty, once again, to voice their concerns. This includes those in the publishing world. Many publishers are deeply worried that their content has already been stolen and that there is no provision in current copyright law to stop this happening. They are anxious that, if the tech companies are allowed to freely steal content, it will destroy the publishing world as we know it and take away their long-term livelihood.

It is not just those in the publishing world, but people across our world-class, highly respected and admired creative industries: film, television, music, photography, arts, performers—the list is endless. This sector is one that brings in billions to the economy. That is why it is essential that, even as we embrace the benefits of AI, we must also enforce the long-standing UK copyright law, first established at the beginning of the 18th century, which formed the basis of worldwide copyright law. We cannot allow this to be undermined.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Cashman Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 4th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Knight, misses one or two points. My noble friend Lady Kidron has made it clear that this is her last stand, so nobody is suggesting that noble Lords are going to try to defeat this Bill. Indeed, I do not think any of us would want to do that.

The Government have said that there is no change to copyright law—I think that is correct—and that copyright law will be upheld. So far, so good. But if we cannot see how copyright is being transgressed, how can we enforce the law? How can we take people to court to get back our royalties? I should mention my interests as listed in the register. In order, it would seem, to appease the American big tech companies and quite possibly President Trump himself, what we have actually done is locked the front door of our creative mansion but left the back door wide open. That is why, in a nutshell, the creative industries are up in arms. It is why I will support the noble Baroness, should she decide it wise to seek the opinion of the House, and I will support her on behalf of all those writers, artists and musicians who stand to lose out through this lack of transparency.

I know many composers, writers, painters and film-makers who earn a pittance from copyright—£2, £3, £50, £100. But however small it is, it is an acknowledgement that they created something, and that that intellectual property belongs to them and should be rewarded.

[Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am an unaffiliated Member of this House, even though I sit on Labour’s Benches—some may say an “unbalanced” Member of this House. I refer to my registered interests. I, like the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, am saddened that we have reached this point. The Bill will not be destroyed should she divide the House this afternoon and should noble Lords vote in favour of her amendment. That is purely within the power of the Commons.

The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, referred to friends in the industry, and we have many. I say to the Government: are the creative industries, unions, associations, writers, directors and painters all wrong and the Government are right? If so, what do the Government have to fear from an approach that is absolutely transparent and allows us, the creators, to hold those who use our work accountable?

I believe the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has said everything that needs to be said at this juncture. Valiantly, she has marched us to the top of the hill. It is the moral high ground, and it is not a hill I am going to march down from.

I had the Whip suspended from me by the Labour Party nearly a year ago, and on a point of principle, I subsequently resigned. I believe, like everybody else here, we are here to pursue the principles we believe in—yes, the democratic principles—high amongst which is holding accountable the Members of the other place and the Government.

[The Earl of Dundee (Con)]

My Lords, I join with others in supporting the noble Baroness in exercising her right to insist upon Amendment 49F. Three months after the Government’s own report, this allows Parliament to be informed of the scale of the theft and the loss of revenue to United Kingdom companies, as it also enables a draft Bill on copyright infringement, AI models and transparency of input.

Your Lordships may consider that these measures are relevant for three reasons. First, they offer a degree of competence and protection, otherwise so far insufficiently provided, to and for the creative industries in the United Kingdom.

Secondly, they give an example internationally, including within the 46 states affiliated to the Council of Europe, of which the United Kingdom remains a highly regarded member and of whose education committee I am a recent chairman.

Thirdly, both within and beyond Europe, and starting with the 1710 Statute of Anne, granting legal protection to publishers of books, they continue to set a copyright protection standard, which in this case is expected of the United Kingdom and is also consistent with Article 11 of the 2024 Council of Europe Framework Convention on Artificial Intelligence, human rights, democracy and the rule of law, safeguarding privacy and personal data.