Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th October 2025 Grand Committee

So we must resist these amendments, for my nephew and his cohort and now for younger children, who are not faced, as my nephew is, by the apparently insuperable challenge of breaking from addiction.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on this group of amendments, which are regrettable, in my view. The previous Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, is to be applauded for what he did, as are the previous Government and this Government. This measure should be nothing to do with party politics.

Interestingly, this is a measure on health, but the proponents of the amendments have not so far mentioned the word “health”. We have heard many arguments, some of which I understand—I will address them briefly in a minute—but, in essence, this is a health measure and we have our own Health Minister, quite rightly, responding to this set of amendments. It is her measure and the Government’s measure. This is a health measure and we should not shy away from the fact that it will save lives.

Those proposing the amendments said they were in favour of bringing in restrictions—there is an age limit now—but they did not say that to me when they were proposing this. It did not sound like that. When I was preparing for this debate, I looked at this set of amendments and, at the back of my mind, I was vaguely reminded of something. I remembered what it was—and they will not like this comparison, so forgive me. It was when Jeremy Corbyn was supposedly in favour of Remain and went around giving speeches on it. Similarly, this proposal seems very half-hearted.

At the core of the current legislation is an age limit. This alters only the way that the age limit applies. The suggestion, in its hyperbole, is that we are going to face a Wild West of people opposing this and so on. Perhaps we need more resources on enforcement, and we certainly need to put in resources to anticipate what small businesses will be doing, but do not forget that this will be a gradual ban; it will not happen overnight. We also need to spend money on cessation services. All of that comes up in a later group of amendments.

These amendments address something outstanding that the Government are doing, which the previous Government were committed to. We should not shy away from it. We can improve this legislation, but this set of amendments would drive a coach and horses through what is necessary.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I find myself in difficulty in this debate. As many noble Lords will know, my party will have a free vote on the generational ban if any amendments are pushed on it. At Second Reading, I made my view about it very clear. I reaffirm my commitment to the aim of the Bill to reduce smoking and have a healthier nation, which is a crucial public health objective, and I support greater regulation that helps people quit and prevents addiction. I say that as somebody who saw both parents die of smoking-related illness, so I understand the effect that it has.

My worry about the Bill, and the reason I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Murray, is the assumption that by banning something, demand will automatically go. It will not go; it will just be shifted to a different market: the black market. That is what will happen; evidence throughout history always shows that. The question is: will the Bill therefore be enforceable to the shift in demand to different markets?

At Second Reading, I raised the issue of proxy demand. Where people are legally able to buy, how on earth will trading standards and the police be able to police every single household in this country, where adults will share tobacco and cigarettes? That is what will happen. I ask the Minister directly whether it will be legal if someone in England who is not able to buy tobacco because they are deemed below the age threshold goes to Jersey, buys tobacco, brings it back and smokes it. Will they be deemed to be carrying out an illegal activity in the UK? Where we had booze runs in previous generations, will we have ciggie runs for this generation? It is a real question.

If somebody goes to France, buys cigarettes and then gives them to somebody back in the UK who is not deemed able to buy them in the UK, will the fact that they have bought them in France but given them to somebody in the UK be an illegal act? Smoking will not be illegal; it is the buying, so if somebody buys in a foreign country, will that be deemed illegal? These are really important questions. The whole enforcement of this relies on those kinds of questions being asked. I do not know the answers, so I ask these genuine questions.

I also worry about trading standards. I heard what the noble Lord said about trading standards, but I declare an interest as vice-president of the Local Government Association. Trading standards officers and organisations I speak to are very happy with what is being proposed but raise great questions about how enforcement will be carried out. They welcome the extra £30 million over the next five years but make it very clear that, in their view, three times that amount will be required to effectively enforce this. They also worry about rolling age verification, particularly as this goes into the future—distinguishing between a 30 year-old and a 31 year-old, as the noble Lord, Lord Murray, said. There will be a rolling issue of enforcement.

Finally, I made clear my fundamental philosophical issue at Second Reading and I shall not dwell on it today. The illicit trade already accounts for one in four cigarette sales. That is according to figures in Civil Service World. They are not HMRC figures. The Civil Service World article stated that, historically and to date, HMRC still underestimates the illegal trade and suggested that it is more like one in four sales. My view is that, by moving demand, we will move more of this into the illicit trade and therefore the enforcement will be even more.

I come back to my central point. Legislation in itself is useless if it cannot be enforced and I have no idea how proxy buying will be enforced in individual homes. People may say that they are not buying for somebody but then pass it on. I therefore believe that the Bill will not create the smoke-free generation that some want by having a generational ban. A cut-off point of an age, followed through with better regulation and better smoking cessation policy, with money paid by the tobacco industry for those things—there are amendments further down that we will come to on that—will be more effective than this view that a generational ban will magically stop the demand and stop younger people smoking throughout their lives.

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[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 24 and 25 in this group. They were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, who is unfortunately unwell today; I am speaking at his request.

These amendments would apply mandatory age-verification procedures for the sale of tobacco, vapes and non-medicinal nicotine products across England and Wales. Such provisions are in line with the provisions set out for Scotland in the Bill. Also in this group are the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Lansley, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, about which we have just heard. The amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, are, in his view, different.

First, they would apply to all tobacco products and not just vaping devices, as the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, would. Secondly, they would require decisive action on the policy to be applied for age verification, rather than an evidence review. The amendments do not prescribe specific methods for age verification; they simply state that age verification would be required.

Since these amendments were tabled and debated in the other place, the Government have announced plans for digital ID cards. This Bill defines “identification” in a broad way to make space for the option of digital ID—it is understood that that option will be used for alcohol sales soon—but it is separate from any kind of mandate on such forms of ID.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, wishes to point out that the successful implementation of the policy in this Bill will require a consistent, practical and enforceable approach to age verification. In his view, this should be in the Bill. He points out that, in Scotland, there is already legal underpinning to the Challenge 25 policy; the Bill adapts this for the rising age of sale. However, there is no such legal basis in England and Wales. These amendments would remove this inconsistency by extending such an underpinning to England and Wales; he feels that it should also be extended to Northern Ireland, although that is not covered in the amendments currently tabled.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, is, therefore, seeking to provide across Great Britain consistency, clarity for both retailers and consumers, and protection for retailers who, as other noble Lords mentioned earlier, might be on the front line in implementing the policy and finding the challenges in that. He points out that, if age verification is a legal requirement, retailers can say, “It’s not me. It’s the law”, rather than shouldering the burden of difficult conversations with customers.

The Bill already creates an offence for retailers who sell tobacco to those born in or after 2009. The defence in law is that all reasonable steps were taken to ensure that the law was being followed. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, points out that this does not mean that retailers will be required to ask every customer for ID from 2027 onwards if, as in Scotland, the age of sale is obviously such that they do not need to proceed with an ID. He says that these amendments have the backing of retailers themselves. Polling shows that 83% of retailers in England support mandatory verification for under-25s, rising to 91% in Scotland where it is already law, and it provides them with clarity, protection and reassurance. The noble Lord also says that public support is equally strong, with 72% of adults in Great Britain favouring this approach.

This is not just about future generations; it is also about tackling a current problem. Despite the ban on sales to under-18s, data shows that around half of the young people who vape are buying them in shops. In fact, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said that the figure is actually higher than that. The amendment would make it clear to retailers that ID is required for not just tobacco but vapes and non-medicinal nicotine products. The Bill already allows flexibility; regulations can specify a wide range of acceptable forms of identification, including digital ID, as is already being introduced for alcohol sales.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, is acutely aware that the enforceability of this part of the Bill has been raised. He hopes that his amendments provide a practical solution that is a proportionate measure. Given that he could not be here, it seemed important to me that his amendments were spoken to so that the Minister can address these issues. I look forward to her response and I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Davies, will be very interested as well.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, I support the amendments proposed by my noble friend Lord Moylan on having the affirmative resolution procedure for statutory instruments. That seems wholly sensible.

On age verification, I strongly support the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham. Dealing with online sales is a real issue. We have the overseas experience of countries such as France, Mexico, Brazil and so on to look at, but this seems a neat solution to what could otherwise become a very real problem.

On the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Lansley, considerable work has been done on age gating in relation to vaping sales and, as he said, those who are vaping strongly support having some kind of process. We have the system being developed by IKE Tech in the USA, currently awaiting FDA approval, which provides a very neat and quick method of age verification via a smartphone app. It will enable adults to remain protected—it will take them only 90 seconds for the initial process and six seconds for every subsequent vape, so it will not take long. That seems a very sensible way of proceeding and I am interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that.

In relation to what the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said about what the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, would have said, there is certainly an issue to be looked at. I strongly support looking at what has been working in Scotland. It seems sensible to look at what they have been doing, learn from their experience and follow it where appropriate. Again, I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that issue.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I do not think it is fair to ask a courier driver to verify the age of a person, so the noble Lord, Lord Young, has a very good point, and age verification online is very poor. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, spoke about age gating. I can see why it is popular with retailers, because it would take some of the burden away from them.

It has been claimed that the Bill may not currently keep up with technology. Can the Minister say whether the wide powers in the Bill would allow powers to be taken in future to mandate age-gating technology if the evidence indicates that it is needed? Clearly, there is a problem even now with underage children buying vapes. A briefing that I—and I think quite a few other noble Lords—received from something called IKE Tech said that 71% of underage children buying vapes get them from retailers. That indicates that we need a really vigorous enforcement regime. It also said that 76% said they are buying them online, which indicates support for the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Young.

On the whole, when people buy from a retailer, I think that I am in favour of a wide range of means of age verification being acceptable. Both these amendments aim to reduce opportunities to start vaping underage, which is a very good thing, because young people who start vaping may not be killed by tobacco but they will be made addicted and very poor by the addiction to nicotine that they will get hooked on. I look forward to the Minister’s reply on that. I would not want to prevent an adult who could not obtain digital age verification buying an effective quitting tool, so we have to be a bit careful about unexpected consequences.

One thing that I saw in the briefing was interesting. The claim is that similar tech can also prevent circulation of illicit products by embedding low-cost NFC tags into product packaging so that every legal vape can be instantly verified; this stops fakes at the border and on shop shelves. That is something that we should all be concerned about, because drugs could well be inserted into vapes—and I understand that this is happening already—so people are getting things that they do not expect to get. Of course, something like that would not be legal and, if there was a tag on them to identify anything that is legal, you would only want to buy those. I know that teachers have reported problems with children being drugged by things that have been inserted into vapes, so that is something that we should consider.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, very briefly, I support the ambition of the amendments in this group, particularly my noble friend Lord Bethell’s amendment on tobacco extinction 2040, which is the level of ambition that we should be looking for. The Government are to be applauded for this measure, but we need not just a direction of travel but a destination, which this provides. I also very much agree that the end-point legislation that we have seen on asbestos and leaded petrol are examples of two very successful approaches that we could replicate here.

I also support the amendments in the names of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham and the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Grey-Thompson, from whom we have just heard. It is very important that we seek to tackle those areas that have the highest deprivation and suffer most from smoking. These amendments seek to do just that. I also agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on the need for a clear communications strategy. That is central and should be led by the department, as she so rightly said.

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, I want briefly to offer a slightly different perspective.

I understand the intent behind the Bill and my noble friend Lord Bethell’s Amendment 4 in this group. However, I believe that this amendment and the Bill as a whole lack some nuance in separating cigarettes from cigars and other tobacco products, which I will hereafter refer to as OTPs. If this were the cigarettes and vapes Bill, I would not have much issue with it, but there is a vast difference in mortality impact between cigar smokers and cigarette smokers. Cigars are not inhaled and are made from natural tobacco, while cigarettes are inhaled, are habitual, are used with high frequency and are often made with additives and chemicals.

I implore noble Lords and the Government to recognise this difference. The reason why is that we risk destroying a 500 year-old business with products that are made by artisans and are often, or almost exclusively, sold by independent family retailers who do not stock or sell cigarettes because cigars and OTPs are the only products that they sell. I draw attention to subsection (3)(b) of the new clause proposed by my noble friend’s Amendment 4, which refers to

“supporting tobacco retailers and businesses in transitioning away from tobacco product sales”.

If that said, “cigarette sales”, I would have no issue with it. If you are a large retailer such as Tesco, you can easily put something else in that shelf space; if you are a family business that sells only cigars, however, the impact of this measure is that you will go out of business.

By including cigars and OTPs in this amendment, we risk putting these family-owned, responsible traders out of business for a very negligible health gain; we also risk losing tourism and tax revenue at the same time. So can my noble friend and the Minister look again at separating cigarettes from cigars and OTPs, both in the Bill in general and in this amendment specifically?