Employment Rights Bill

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 21st July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I want to intervene very briefly to reflect on the difference between the debate this afternoon and the debate we had at the time of the P&O disaster—I call it a disaster for all the people who were basically sacked. It was very difficult to get information about what was right and what was wrong, and who was their employer. We were fed a load of, frankly, bad information from the company, and we got some good information from the trade unions.

Let us just reflect, however, on what my noble friends Lord Hendy and Lady O’Grady said about how things have changed. It would have been wonderful if we had heard their speeches before we debated P&O, because the problem is still just as bad and still needs resolving. I am very glad to welcome these two people in particular, and I hope we will hear much more from them.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

Will noble Lords allow me to say a word in support? I was a little late coming in because I misread the screen; I thought we were on Amendment 122. I support my noble friend’s Amendment 125 because it would reinforce the individual freedom of the workplace and the freedom of contract, and it would protect access to statutory rights. I say this in response to some of the points made about what other arrangements could be in place. I will refer to one law firm commenting on the importance of freedom of contract in our laws. It reflected—

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[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I have played no part in this Bill, but I have come in especially for this amendment—although I voted on an earlier one. However, my elder brother was a passionate railway supporter, and he would have been horrified if he had realised that any support that he could give would have been illegal. Respectfully, it is no use the Minister saying that guidance shows that they will not prosecute. The fact is that the law forbids it. Speaking as a former lawyer, if the law forbids it, no respectable organisation should allow it to go forward.

It does not matter that the advice is that you will not be prosecuted. If, in the future, a 13 year-old is a passionate supporter and a different member of the organisation who looks after this says, “We must prosecute”, the fact that they have been told they would not be prosecuted would not be the slightest defence in a court of law. This is the important thing. It is anachronistic, as has been said, and it is time it was changed. I hope the Minister is not going to offer the bromide that it does not matter because it will not happen. The law has to be obeyed, and we cannot have government departments saying that you can shut your eyes to a piece of law.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I support this amendment wholeheartedly. I have attended many meetings of the heritage rail group, and I congratulate my noble friend on the way he has taken it forward.

One thing we have not mentioned is the quite regular reports from members who run the small railways about the fear of breaking the law and the effect it could have if there are legal cases and they run out of money. Most of them are very short of money, and they rely on as much voluntary work as they possibly can. The thought of being taken to court—whether it is by the regulator, which is unlikely, as my noble friend says, or others—really puts them off welcoming younger people. It is the fear of legal action against a voluntary organisation which is the most serious part of this debate.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, the incredible thing about this amendment is that it has signatures and support from the Conservative Benches, the Labour Benches, the Liberal Democrat Benches and the Cross Benches. It is something the Government should take into account. It is not some weird idea from one part of this House, it is across the House. I applaud the initiative which started with my old friend, the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner—if he would allow me to say that. The principle here is to try to stop unintended consequences. The law is as it is, and it cannot be ignored. We have an opportunity to tweak the employment rights legislation to put that right.

We are dealing with young people who are doing voluntary work on the railways. There was an incredible programme on television recently—which I referred to in a previous speech—where the young people were doing all the jobs on this heritage railway, except running the engine, which was dangerous and they were not allowed to do; they were the porters, the inspectors, et cetera. We all gain from it: the young people gain from it and the community gains from it. However, there is a possibility that someone could be prosecuted because the law says what it does.

We are not talking about one small heritage railway. As the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, said, there are many; he mentioned the Ffestiniog Railway—if I pronounced that correctly. There is also the North Yorkshire Moors Railway, the Bluebell Railway, the West Somerset Railway, the Middleton Railway, the Spa Valley Railway, and many others. There is a long list.

This is a very understated thing. People have asked me why I signed the amendment from the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner and Lord Parkinson; I told them it was because we are dealing with real matters of the moment in the employment rights legislation. This is an opportunity to put right a small error in history. I invite everybody, if we go to a vote, to support this.