Work Capability Assessment

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Wednesday 5th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in his reply to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, the Minister said that the new contract between Maximus and the DWP had now been signed. In view of the phenomenal sums of public money which are involved in this, can the Minister tell us when that contract will be placed in the public domain, whether it will be possible properly to scrutinise it and whether it will be possible for the public to see the operating systems and all the other issues involved, in contrast to way in which the Atos Healthcare contract was administered?

[Lord Freud]

Details of the new contract will be published on Contracts Finder by the end of November.

Personal Independence Payment

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

One can do some funny things with mathematics and that 42-year figure is one of them. Clearly in the opening period of any new policy of this sort there is a ramp-up, and we need to get that ramp-up right. As I said, the position of this process is not satisfactory and we are taking a lot of steps to make sure that we get the improvement that we must have. We are pushing up the numbers of staff, improving claimant communications in this process, getting more paper-based reviews which will speed the process up, and taking a series of other initiatives to get this right.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, given the view just expressed by the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons that the introduction of personal independence payments has been a “fiasco”, and that in securing the contract ATOS gave,

“incorrect and potentially misleading information”,

does the Minister have any plans to re-examine the ATOS tender documents? Does he believe that ATOS should be able to bid again in future for DWP contracts?

[Lord Freud]

The build-up of PIP was done in a controlled and phased way, and that was acknowledged by the NAO. ATOS won that contract in fair, open competition and we have no plans to reopen that process.

Diffuse Mesothelioma Payment Scheme Regulations 2014

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Monday 17th March 2014 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, I thank all those who worked so closely with me while the Bill was being considered by the House. We had a series of valuable debates and I am indebted to all those who followed and studied the Mesothelioma Act with such great dedication and focus on the detail. It was a collaborative act to get this legislation on to the statute book. Noble Lords will remember that there were quite a few significant adjustments made as a direct result of those debates. I was pleased to receive those ideas and to apply them in real time. Without the efforts of everyone the Act would be in poorer shape. To the extent that I did not do everything that noble Lords asked, I apologise, but I suspect that they all know how these things work.

As Members of the Committee will know, the problem of untraced employers or insurers in mesothelioma cases has for many years left sufferers and their dependants without recourse to the compensation that should be their due. It is a huge step forward that we now have concrete provision for those people who fall foul of the insurance industry’s market failure to keep proper records. The Act finally guarantees that they will be able to access payments that will support them in a most difficult and distressing time. The Mesothelioma Act represents a huge achievement and I hope that noble Lords will share my pride in that achievement.

We are here today to debate the substance of the regulations that dictate how the scheme will be run. I will briefly outline what the regulations set out but, first, I would like to mention the recent announcement that payments have been increased from 75% to 80% of the average civil damages. On 6 March, the DWP announced that payments would move from 75% to 80% and that this was possible because scheme administration costs were now confirmed to be lower than expected. This means that we can afford to pay people more while keeping to a levy of no more than 3% of employers’ liability gross written premium. I hope that noble Lords will welcome this good news.

This announcement posed a slight problem in timing. The draft regulations had already been laid in Parliament, including a payment tariff of 75%. I give my commitment that as soon as these regulations come into force a negative instrument will be laid to amend that tariff. For the purposes of today’s debate, however, I hope we can continue as normal.

The payment tariff is a schedule of these regulations and has no material impact on the substance of the regulations, which deal with how the scheme operates. To withdraw and relay amended draft regulations at this stage would simply rule out the possibility of having the scheme operational by April of this year. I know that noble Lords are sympathetic to the need to get the scheme running as soon as possible and I hope they are assured that our debates will not be affected by the increase in payments. I will of course share with noble Lords a copy of the revised table that we intend to bring forward with the higher tariff.

I come now to the reason why we are here: the regulations. These regulations deal with the duties of the scheme administrator and with the duties of the applicant. They set out details relating to making an application, how that application will be decided on, and the right to ask for a review and a subsequent appeal. They also deal with slightly more specific issues that may arise during the scheme’s running, such as repayments in the case of misrepresentation of information in an application and imposing certain conditions on a payment—for example, requiring it to be put into a trust fund for a person who cannot manage their own financial affairs. I am sure that we will go into much more detail on the key points during our debate but, before that, I hope to clarify a couple of possible questions and mention three points.

First, noble Lords who have kindly commented on draft versions of the regulations will notice that they no longer deal with the £7,000 contribution towards legal fees. I give an assurance that successful applicants will still receive a fixed contribution of £7,000 included in their payment. Following internal legal checks, we have removed mention of the legal fees payment and will instead include these in the regulations that deal with compensation recovery.

Secondly, I wish to mention the date of commencement. Regulation 2 explains that Regulation 7(2)(c) will not come into force at the same time as the other regulations. This is simply because that regulation refers to another enactment—the third parties Act 2010, which has not yet come into force. This does not affect the rest of the regulations or the commencement of the scheme.

Finally, I should like to give a little more detail relating to the chosen scheme administrator. The commercial process to select the administrator was a topic that occupied much debate in this House last summer. I assure noble Lords that a full and open tender process was conducted—indeed, I distinctly remember giving assurances on a number of occasions that that would be the case. Gallagher Bassett won the contract because, of all the bidders, it scored highest against the published commercial criteria. Gallagher Bassett is a claims-handling company well used to delivering government contracts and it has been carrying out personal injury claims-handling on behalf of the MoD for several years. I am confident that it will deliver the high-quality service that this scheme requires, and I am delighted that, as a result of its appointment, we are able to raise scheme payments.

I hope that I have helped a little here with my introduction, and I will endeavour to answer as many questions as I can as we have this debate. Of course, where I cannot do so from the Dispatch Box, I commit to write with a full account. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has been generous in thanking Members of the Grand Committee for the work they put in when the 2014 Bill was being considered on the Floor of the House. However, it would be churlish at this juncture if Members of the Grand Committee did not pay tribute to the Minister for the work that he did tirelessly throughout. Although we had our differences on details of the Bill, we all committed to seeing it through its stages here and in the other place because we knew that this legislation was long overdue. It sets in place a scheme that will respond compassionately to people who are given a death sentence when they learn that they have mesothelioma. It is also based on justice, and I know through the contact that I have had with the Minister that he is always keen to see that things are dealt with expeditiously. He deserves warm thanks for the personal efforts that he has made. It is not easy to get legislation through Parliament, and he has done that deftly, while also working with the insurance industry. I think that all of us are sufficiently worldly wise to know that balancing all of those things at once is no mean achievement.

The United Kingdom, as we have heard, has the highest rate of mesothelioma in the world, with a further 60,000 people in the UK predicted to die from this disease in the next 30 years—as the Minister said, more than 2,000 people annually. The need is paramount constantly to urge greater attention to how we assist victims and keep focus on the insurance industry as well as how we better fund and pool research in finding causes and cures for this lethal disease. I was struck by a reply that the Minister gave to me in response to Parliamentary Question HL3144, where he said:

“The statistical model suggests an uncertainty range of 55,000 to 65,000 deaths on that estimate. However, the true uncertainty range may be wider as longer-range predictions are reliant on assumptions about asbestos exposures that cannot currently be fully validated”.—[Official Report, 19/11/13; col. WA194.]

We can add to that the trends in many of the developing BRIC countries, which are going through many of the same experiences that we have gone through, although the figures worldwide are not collected; in answer to another Question that I tabled asking for worldwide statistics, I was told that none were available. Given our own experience as the country with the worst rate of mesothelioma in the world, we should be at the cutting edge or, to mix my metaphors, in the driving seat in insisting that there is a collaborative global approach to this horrendous problem.

The Minister will be aware that I have tabled a Private Member’s Bill, the Mesothelioma (Amendment) Bill, on research. Today gives the Minister the opportunity to say whether the Government intend to facilitate the Bill’s progress and accept the principles that underpin it. The Bill mirrors the all-party amendment defeated here on a whipped vote by a mere seven votes, which was tabled again in the House of Commons by the late Paul Goggins and the Conservative Member of Parliament, Tracey Crouch. On 7 November, the Minister in reply to a Parliamentary Question recognised the importance of research, saying:

“As you are aware there is a cross-Government commitment to support more quality research into mesothelioma. The work that the Department of Health are taking forward on this issue is designed to encourage researchers to pursue projects that will hopefully benefit sufferers of this terrible disease”.—[Official Report, 7/11/13; col. WA69.]

Can we be told today how that work is progressing? Inter alia, I commend to the Minister Early Day Motion 995, moved by Tracey Crouch in another place, which has now been signed by more than 60 Members of the House of Commons. It says:

“That this House notes with concern that mesothelioma is an invasive form of lung cancer caused primarily by prior exposure to asbestos”.

It goes on to give the kind of statistics that I have just given and ends by paying tribute to the,

“great work of the former hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe and Sale East, the late Paul Goggins, to raise the profile of the need for long-term investment into mesothelioma research; and calls on the Government to facilitate the establishment of a long-term sustainable mesothelioma research scheme funded by the insurance industry”.

I would simply add to that the point that I made in the previous debate. Given that some £71 million will come into the Government’s coffers in the next 10 years, less the £17 million that will be given to insurers, surely it will be possible to use some of that money to create a pound-for-pound research fund, where we work collaboratively with the insurance industry.

On the Floor of the House, I recently asked the noble Earl, Lord Howe, about a breakthrough in mesothelioma research which has taken place in Canada. In reply, he said:

“Mesothelioma is a devastating disease, and I certainly undertake to look at the material that the noble Lord has sent me”.—[Official Report, 27/2/14; col. 1005.]

This is probably the most hopeful small breakthrough that I have seen over the years that I have been following this and I wonder, having spoken privately, very briefly, to the Minister, whether he is in a position today to tell us what follow-up has been done by the Department of Health in looking at that breakthrough and what the initial conclusions are. Will he say whether his department and the Department of Health are not only collaborating across government in the United Kingdom but working with others to try, not to duplicate work that has already been done or to reinvent the wheel, to bring together the best practice and knowledge that there is worldwide?

Perhaps I may ask about a reply that the noble Lord gave to me to Parliamentary Question 14/5095, which concerned the extensive tables he produced for the House about the occupations of people who die from mesothelioma. In that reply he said:

“The latest available analysis of citizens dying from Mesothelioma in Great Britain is based on deaths between 2002 and 2010 at ages 16-74. Only the last occupation of the deceased is routinely recorded”.

It is not the last occupation that we need but the data on all the occupations that someone has had. If we are going to get any kind of idea about tracking the causes of mesothelioma we need to know where the hot spots are with this disease.

The Minister continued:

“It is important to note that, for those Mesothelioma cases that are caused by occupational exposure, the last occupation of the deceased which is recorded on the death certificate may not reflect the source of exposure due to the long latency of the disease.—[Official Report, 11/2/14; col. WA 122.]

That begs the question of what use are the tables in those circumstances. Would it not be better to acquire data that would help us?

I was about to turn to the Questions from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, but as he is about to intervene, perhaps he will save me doing so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for a highly informed debate and for the kind words that were addressed to me personally, which I appreciate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. Without the little present that he left me on my arrival, things would perhaps not have been sorted out with quite such alacrity.

A number of noble Lords asked about the timing. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, was the first. Our intention is that applications will be accepted from April with the first payments in July. These regulations will come into force on 6 April, subject to this process. We intend to lay the negative instrument the next day, 7 April.

I shall now deal with research, on which we spent a lot of time. Noble Lords around the Room are very sympathetic to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about improving it. That debate, which I shall not replay because it is a long and complicated situation, as noble Lords know, stimulated a substantial increase in research activity in this country on mesothelioma. I shall go through the four things that we committed to do. First, we set up a partnership to identify the priorities in research. A survey has now begun and is currently open, asking patients, families and healthcare professionals for their unanswered questions about mesothelioma treatment. The partnership will then prioritise the questions, and the end result will be a top 10 list of mesothelioma questions for researchers to answer. It is planned that that list will be ready by the end of this year, when it will be disseminated and work will begin with the National Institute for Health Research to turn the priorities into fundable research questions.

Secondly, the national institute will highlight to the research community in the spring of this year that it wants to encourage research applications in mesothelioma. Thirdly, the national institute’s research design service continues to be available to help prospective applicants to develop competitive research proposals. Finally, the National Cancer Research Institute has made excellent progress in planning a workshop for leading researchers to discuss and develop new proposals for mesothelioma studies. This event will take place on 2 May.

I know that we are not going along with the specific structures suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, but I want him to feel that we are really pursuing this with energy, getting results and getting this focus within the structure of how research is managed in this country. Just because his specific proposals may not have been accepted, he should not feel that we have not taken his point thoroughly on board or that we are not grateful to him for keeping up that pressure.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I urge the Minister to add a fifth point to his four other points with regard to the remarks that I made earlier about the importance of global collaboration through the World Health Organisation, also looking at best practice and innovations being promoted elsewhere in the world and the need to draw that information together. We may have the highest rate of mesothelioma in the world but many other countries face the same challenges as we do.

[Lord Freud]

That is a very powerful point from the noble Lord. I have not yet had a chance to talk to my colleagues in the Department of Health but I shall pick up that issue specifically.

On the suggestion as to where to spend the recoveries money, it is the same core point. There is a process for funding research, and it does not work to direct other moneys around in that mechanical way. The money will go into research as the right propositions come up. That is the reason why, fundamentally, we will not be able to provide support for his Private Member’s Bill. It is a difference not in aspiration but in the structures that we can accept. I know that he will be disappointed in that, but he may not be surprised.

The point that the noble Lord raised on the causes of mesothelioma and the last occupation is one that requires reflection, and I shall write to him on that particular set of points. I will also pick up the related point from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on the technical issue of the MoD advising tenants. On the noble Lord’s point about widening the coverage of the 2014 Bill, clearly we will continue to operate the 1979 scheme, but I have dealt in enormous detail with why we would not widen this scheme and why we are in no position to make any such commitments now.

[Lord Freud]

I have been in discussion with the insurance industry. There is currently no commitment to go ahead with its funding, but I do not think that this is the end of the story. We are still talking about various options.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

Before the noble Lord leaves that point, I do not want to return to the arguments that we had on the amendment that I moved in the House, but he will recall that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in replying to those debates, made a number of substantive remarks about the important role that the industry was playing in supporting research into mesothelioma through financial contributions. If we had been aware at that time that the industry was not going to step up to the plate and provide those resources, I wonder whether some noble Lords might have voted in the way they did having been given those assurances.

I shall not press the Minister further today but I hope that he will return to the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, perhaps by writing to keep us informed about the progress he has made. Certainly, I know from my own meetings with the industry as recently as last week that it would much rather have a scheme where the cost is shared beyond the six companies that previously funded research. Those six companies feel that the whole burden should not just fall upon them.

[Lord Freud]

We are in danger of rerunning the debate. Clearly, we were not able to help the insurance industry to spread the burden using this mechanism, for complicated reasons which are on the record. Discussions are going on with those companies that have a sense that contributing to research is desirable and we shall see what comes out. On the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about the extent of recoveries, over 10 years according to the impact assessment we are expecting £72.2 million.

In response to the leading and very clever question from the noble Lord, Lord Howarth—I would expect nothing less from him—we have committed to keeping the tariff under review and we will carry out a review of it after four years, once the smoothing period has finished.

Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2014

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Monday 17th March 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as ever, noble Lords have asked a set of sizzling questions, which I shall do my best to address, although they are getting so technical now, because we have gone round this subject so many times, that I think that I shall end up writing quite a bit of it out, if noble Lords will excuse me for doing so.

On the question from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on the breakdown of the figures for the latest year, 2012-13, there is a total of 3,180 cases due to the 1979 Act. That represents the bulk of the expenditure, at £43.6 million. The 2008 scheme figures are 500 cases and £9.6 million of expenditure. I think that we have the breakdown figures that the noble Lord requested from 2002-03 onwards, but not to hand; I shall need to write with them. I did not anticipate that particular run of figures. I think that that will tie up with the recovery figures for the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and how they relate to the 2008 figures. I think that I will tie that up—I shall aim to do some tables.

On the split between sufferers and dependants, again, I shall use the latest year. Under the 1979 Act, of the total the bulk were the sufferers—2,900 out of the total—and 280 were the dependants. With the 2008 scheme, 450 were sufferers and 50 were dependants. That testifies to the speed with which the money gets out, given the sad mortality expectation that we were discussing. I am in no position today to move much further on making any progress in closing that gap between dependants and sufferers, but it is something that we keep under review. Clearly, we have been looking very closely at this whole area over the past year, and we will keep it under review. That is the best that I can do, speaking today.

I hope that I have covered everything, except for the HSE questions, with the awareness-raising scheme. I will write on the actual cost of what it would be to close that differential on the figures that I have just provided, which will give a baseline on what we are keeping under review. I shall also need to write on the detail of the HSE awareness-raising campaign. I feel somewhat embarrassed that I have resorted quite so much to the written word. If there is anything else at all, I shall include that in the letter. These are two important schemes. I commend the uprating of the payment scales and ask approval to implement them.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

When the Minister comes to write his epistles to the Members of this Grand Committee, I wonder whether he will also be good enough to come back to us about the three anomalies that I specifically raised with him.

[Lord Freud]

Yes, my Lords. As I understand the questions, they concern, first, dependants being paid less, on which I have already committed; secondly, the age between 67 and 77; and, thirdly, the 10% enhancement. I shall be pleased to deal with those as well. With that, I ask for approval to implement the regulations.

Disabled People: Mobility Benefits

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Monday 2nd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are handling an extraordinarily difficult economic and financial position. As noble Lords are of course aware, we have had a decline in GDP of 7.2% from its peak in 2008-09. That is more or less the same level as what happened in the 1930s. Handling that decline has been enormously difficult and one of the most interesting things about the way we have handled it generally is that, unlike every other developed country, we have spread the inevitable difficulties across the whole economy, rather than, as elsewhere, the poor being hit far worse than the rich. That has not happened in the adjustment that we have made in this country.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, pursuing the point made by the noble Baroness about the role of Atos Healthcare, in confirming the amounts of money that are involved in this process, will the Minister confirm to the House that in the past 12 months alone, £114 million has been paid to Atos Healthcare; that, over the distance, more than £700 million has been paid to it; and that he has had to call in PricewaterhouseCoopers in order to assess its role? Will he tell us what that has cost and when the National Audit Office will now report on the tendering arrangements involving Atos Healthcare that it has decided to investigate?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, that is a series of very specific questions, some of the answers to which are not yet in the public arena. I will have a look at which of those I can answer appropriately in that context.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]: Impact

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

Let me make it absolutely clear that we have been acting as the agents of the sufferers in our discussions with the insurance industry. The idea that there is some kind of cosy relationship between government and the insurance industry is absolutely not true. It has been a really tough business to get a deal through. I talk regularly to victims’ groups and lawyers. I get their support and as we develop the next stage, which is a practical process, I will be getting their views and having them very much in mind.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

Will the Minister confirm that with people dying of mesothelioma at a rate of 2,000 a year the Government have predicted a further 56,000 deaths over the next 30 years? Will he tell the House the total level of compensation that will have to be paid out during that period to meet those claims? Will he contrast that with the not a penny piece that is currently being spent on research into finding cures for mesothelioma? In that context, will he give further consideration to the letter sent to him by more than 20 Members of your Lordships’ House from all sides of the House asking for public and insurance industry money to be used in order to do more to find a cure for this terrible disease that will take a further 56,000 lives in the next 30 years?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, that is precisely the point. This is a terrible disease. It is about to peak in the next couple of years. That is why I have been in such a hurry to provide a scheme for those who cannot get compensation. I cannot do the sums in my head, but the payments are clearly in the many hundreds of millions. We have had much discussion about the lack of research in this area compared with other cancers. It is something that I and my noble friend Lord Howe are concerned about. We are going to try to launch that. There are two aspects: whether the Medical Research Council will find it valuable to do the research, and the insurance industry, which has been providing the only substantial source of funding until now in this terrible area.

Social Security (Disability Living Allowance, Attendance Allowance and Carer’s Allowance) (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Monday 24th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I do not think we have time to debate what heavily adapted comprises. However, the figure for cars heavily adapted for a disabled person is 2%. Clearly, we all personalise cars to some extent. I can let the noble Baroness have some more information on that to the extent that I have it, but that is the figure that I have. I confirm that the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, is looking carefully at how Motability can help to mitigate the impact for those who may be affected by the move to PIP.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

Before the Minister leaves that point, will he tell us a little bit more about what he is doing to create joint transitional arrangements, if that is what they are to be, with Motability, and when they will published? When will opportunities occur for people to be consulted and to respond to the consultation?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are working with Motability currently on what the arrangements might be. I have no information at this stage on where we are with those discussions between the department and Motability, but clearly we are in discussions. I am not informed as to when I can update the House on that matter.

On the judicial review, as noble Lords have seen, there is a consultation on the 20 metre/50 metre issue. I can assure my noble friend Lady Thomas that this is a genuine consultation which we are entering with an open mind and we will be looking to hear the views of individuals and organisations. Once that consultation is closed, we will publish our response, including how we intend to act.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred to changes to Atos’s supply chain since the tendering stage of the PIP. I assure noble Lords that the department’s decision to award the contract was not based on the mention of any particular organisation in the bids to deliver the PIP. It is usual for there to be changes between contract award and delivery. Indeed, we expect Atos’s use of supply chain sites to rise and fall in line with referral numbers. The department made a change to the reassessment timetable after Atos submitted its tender, which means that there will be significantly fewer assessments in 2013-14 than it had originally planned. However, it is important to note that Atos has kept the department informed about changes and we are confident that Atos and its partners are able to deliver successfully.

The noble Lord asked about the £391 million that the Government are said to have given Atos over three years. I do not have that information to hand but I will write to him on that matter.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. He will recall that I also asked him specifically whether the 60 minutes’ travelling distance which Atos had said would be the maximum that people would have to travel to an assessment centre will be maintained or whether it will now be extended to 90 minutes, as has been alleged. Will the total number of assessment centres be reduced from the number I cited earlier to just a handful?

[Lord Freud]

I remind noble Lords that Atos tendered for four of the contract areas and received two, so it is not surprising that the 22 sites it was looking at have been reduced, given that it has a smaller number of contract areas. My information is that the 22 figure has gone down to 14. I will add to my letter any information I have on travel times estimates.

In summary, this issue is about balance and fairness—fairness to those who have a Motability vehicle and to the substantial majority of mobility component recipients who do not. However, this is fairness tempered with appropriate mechanisms to ensure that the impact on existing and future users of the scheme is minimised. Specific transitional arrangements are in place for those directly impacted when the measure was introduced and there will remain appropriate and generous provisions in the future. I commend the hospital in-patient arrangements to the House and trust that they have reassured the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and that as a consequence he will not press the Motion.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, as always, I am grateful to the Minister for the way in which he answered the questions that were put to him, although I think he would be the first to agree that a number of questions raised during the debate remain unanswered. However, he will also understand that, although the measures may be narrow, parliamentarians have to take their chances. If they can find a hook on which to hang their coat, they are obliged to do so. That is surely part of our role as scrutineers. Your Lordships will be glad to know that I do not intend to drag this out although there is no time limit. Even though this is a dinner hour debate, we could have gone on for much longer. I think those taking part in the following debate will recognise that we have been pretty disciplined in the way that we have gone about this.

The issues that we have covered range from the disproportionalilty in the way that these changes will affect rural areas and poorer areas and concerns about the statistics that have still not been shared with us. We do not know the number of people who will be impacted by these changes and the cost of the vehicles, which was a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins. Will it cost between £8,000 and £12,000 for someone to purchase one of these vehicles—a vehicle that had been made available to them previously by an Act of Parliament? It was an Act of Parliament that laid down the criteria under which people qualified. Surely we are guilty of behaving without due concern for the effect of the changes that we have put in place.

I repeat what I said in our deliberations earlier this year. It is our duty to understand the impact of the decisions we make. The Minister has just said that we cannot reliably estimate the impact; we do not know. That is not a good position for us to be in. Decisions will affect the mobility and independence of people with disabilities. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, put it very well when she said that you turn a person from being independent to being dependent when you take such decisions.

Just as we found a way of encouraging the Minister to come to the House this evening, I know that I and other Members of your Lordships’ House will look for other ways of holding the Government to account to ensure that we mitigate the worst effects of these changes. On the basis of the reply that has now been given, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Homeless People: Night Shelters

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Tuesday 11th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what provision they are making for homeless people left without access to night shelter provision following the Anglesey judgment on housing benefit and the funding of night shelters.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, local authorities are best placed to make local provision for homeless people and have been allocated £470 million from 2011-12 until 2014-15 to prevent homelessness and tackle rough sleeping.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, if there were no material changes in the Government’s regulations concerning night shelters, why are homeless people who were in shelters now on the streets? In the light of the Anglesey judgment is there not an urgent need for the Minister to issue new guidance to close a revolving door which has sent vulnerable people, many of whose lives were, in any event, in freefall, back on to the streets, sleeping rough on park benches or in shop doorways or seeking hospital beds, and which in Salford precipitated the closure of Narrowgate, the only night shelter serving Manchester and Salford, which has, in the past, helped more than 2,000 people? To protect the homeless, do we not need to rapidly hammer out a humane and just solution, with new guidelines issued to local authorities and to charities working with the homeless?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, clearly homelessness is a priority of this Government and we are putting a lot of resource into prevention. The most important area in which we are doing that is the No Second Night Out policy, which is proving very successful and is being run out across the country this year. This is an isolated example of how particular shelters are funded.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Monday 10th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

The noble Lord must be very careful about making remarks like that. I think that we should strike them from the record.

The noble Lord was clearly referring in particular to those working in the boiler rooms of those three ships—HMS “Britannia”, HMS “Furious” and HMS “Albion”—a great many of whom would have been exposed to asbestos during the course of their service. We all in this Committee, I know, are deeply sympathetic to a tragic situation. However, as the noble Lord acknowledges, it is not possible for this Bill to be the solution for that, mainly because the MoD was not and is not covered by employer liability insurance. It would not be appropriate to raise finds for such a scheme from the employer liability insurance markets; they are entirely different issues. I know that the noble Lord has particular issues with the arrangements which the MoD has in place for compensation, so I will not go into those. They are dealt with by the MoD and I suspect that they will be the subject of conversation tomorrow.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

Before the Minister goes any further on that, would he accept that there is a parallel between people who slipped through the insurance arrangements for people with mesothelioma—and for whom there is therefore no known legal authority and so the Bill has been brought forward to plug that gap—and servicemen who have also fallen through a gap because there is no liability accepted by the Ministry of Defence and no insurance arrangements in place for them either? In parallel with this scheme, surely we should at least accept a moral responsibility for the obligations of the Government to people serving in our Armed Forces and risking their lives in the service of this nation, and therefore accept that it should in due course be met. Can the Minister at least tell us how many people are in those groups to which he has just alluded?

[Lord Freud]

My intelligence on this comes from my noble friend Lord James, who told me that the estimate was 300 people. However, I stand to be corrected by him.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

Ah, I might say a few words. I hope that in my earlier intervention in the interests of saving a little time I effectively dealt with our approach on Amendments 1, 2, 4 and 5. I will turn to Amendments 3 and 6 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth.

Amendment 3 requires that before the scheme is established,

“the Secretary of State shall publish his proposals and make a statement to Parliament about them”.

This falls into the area of the recommendations from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee to make the scheme rules subject to negative resolution. The result of those considerations may serve to enhance in practice the level of parliamentary scrutiny, which would make this amendment unnecessary.

One or two questions were raised. I apologise for the late arrival of the scheme rules—everything seems to be just in time today—but I was keen to get them to Committee Members before we started. Of course, we will have another day of Committee, and further stages. They are a draft at this stage and a work in progress and we will be continuing to refine them during the passage of the Bill and indeed afterwards.

I ought to deal with the question from my noble friend Lord Avebury on the meeting with the insurance industry. Bluntly, this was a negotiation with the insurance industry and you have to meet people to negotiate with them. To get a working scheme going, that was an essential job. I would have liked to have done it with rather fewer meetings, but that is what it took.

Amendment 6 requires that:

“The Secretary of State must report annually to Parliament on the performance and progress of the scheme”.

I argue that it is not necessary to include this in the Bill. Scrutiny and reviews are already planned for the scheme without the need to include those in legislation. Indeed, we cannot know at this stage whether it is necessary or appropriate to report annually. We are aiming to determine the details of the reviews at a later stage. I am happy to commit to making a Statement to the House on the scheme’s performance. We will keep this under review as, over time, we expect the volume of scheme cases to reduce and for further information on the schemes to be readily available. The kind of information that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, was talking about may become transparent effectively on a daily basis. I urge the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

Before the Minister sits down, perhaps he could put on the record a bit more about the imbalance of the meetings that he held with the industry and the victim support groups. He may recall that I raised this issue at Second Reading. I heard from the victim support groups afterwards and they said, quite categorically:

“We met the Minister three times, however at no time were we involved in any discussions about the scheme which was unveiled on 25 July 2012. The detail and architecture of the scheme was devised by the insurers and DWP”.

That has been a source of some discontent among those who represent the victims of this awful disease.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

On that point, has the Minister seen the ABI briefing, where it says:

“There will only be a very small category of people who have been solely self-employed and therefore not eligible for a payment from the untraced scheme”?

Clearly the ABI has the data. Before we come back to this issue on Report, perhaps the Minister will discuss with the ABI what it based that statement on and what the numbers are.

[Lord Freud]

Well, my Lords, if I am cleared to speak to the insurance industry again by this Committee, I will ask it for those data, and supply them to your Lordships.

The noble Lord, Lord Moonie, made the point about those who had washed the clothes. Again, that is not covered by employer’s liability. It could be a case of public liability, so there may be something to pursue. I will look into that before the next Committee day to see if I can get a little bit more information. I do not have very much information on the legal differentiation and what actually happens there. The same question was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Browne.

On the Northern Ireland question asked by my noble friend Lord Empey, the Northern Ireland legislation mirrors the legislation in the rest of the UK, with the 1979-2008 legislation prevailing, and the plan is to run this there as well.

I think that I have dealt with all the questions, but possibly not to everyone’s satisfaction.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

I have actually got round to asking that question already, so I can answer it now. The reason is that it is an unfashionable area because it was believed that there was no hope. We caught it late, it was happening over a very short period and it was fatal. It was an unfashionable area to go into and therefore the people who wanted to make their careers in research turned to other cancers. As a result, good-quality research proposals were not coming in and therefore the research council did not feel that it could supply funds. That is the reason and it has been the reason for decades. With regard to breaking that cycle, the insurance industry and the voluntary groups working with the BLF have started rolling the stone down the hill, and I think that we are now in a position to get something moving. However, it is a bigger issue than just getting a little bit of money through this device.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, the Minister said that he feels like a mad mouse going round in a wheel. Fortunately, we have some good medics on hand this evening, who, I am sure, will be happy to diagnose the problem. Whether they can come up with a cure, I am not sure, but it is the job of parliamentarians to come up with a cure to help Ministers who are clearly committed to the underlying principles enunciated in the amendment actually to achieve them. He said that he has been banging his head against a brick wall and that he has been dismayed at the failure to provide adequate resources to deal with these things. The one thing we can do for a Minister in that situation is to provide him with an amendment to the Bill, which he can then take back to the other departments involved, to the Treasury and to everybody else, saying, “In Committee, they gave me a hard time over this. We need to find some way forward”.

Although I am of course not pressing this to a Division today, the fact that 10 noble Lords participated in this debate and have spoken with such experience and conviction, all being in favour of the principles underlying the amendment, means that surely the Minister now has some ammunition in the locker to take away and use to try and promote this case.

I am indebted to everyone who has spoken in the debate. My noble friend Lord Walton of Detchant said that the amendment could be strengthened and suggested two ways of doing that. I particularly liked what he said about the National Institute for Health Research and the role that it might play. I will certainly consult him in redrafting this amendment between now and Report.

My noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss said that if we could do it for gambling, why on earth can we not do it for this? The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, reminded us, as did the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that many other precedents can be invoked in such circumstances. Perhaps the Minister could ask his officials to look at the whole battery of precedents when going away to persuade those who, somewhere in the system, are clearly opposed to us putting these powers into the Bill.

My noble friend Lord Wigley reminded us of the scale and number of people affected by this horrible disease. He recognised, as did others, that a variable approach might be the right one to adopt as we recast the amendment.

My noble friend Lord Kakkar said there had there had been no strategic approach. He is right. He reminded us about the role of the meso-bank, which, as he says, will have global significance. He also referred to the possibilities that genetic research produces, but said that research has to be kick-started. In other words, there has to be some kind of seed funding—in the absence of state funding. Of course, austerity will inevitably be one of the reasons given when the Minister goes back to the Treasury or elsewhere. Other people will have their own priorities and projects, which they say that the money should be spent on. Again, we need to provide the Minister with something that overcomes those objections. The approach adopted in this amendment of a levy is one way of doing that. My noble friend Lord Kakkar also reminded us about something that I had not thought about previously: the importance of research into appropriate palliative medicines and palliative care, and the way in which we care for people during the last months of their lives. That was an important point for us to consider.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, reminded us of the stark numbers, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, who, along with others, signed a letter sent to the Times, told us about the importance of leverage and asked why a greater volume of resources was not made available for research. I was prompted to think about this issue by two Questions asked in another place by a Member of Parliament, Mr Bob Blackman. I was surprised when I saw on one of his Questions just three dotted lines where figures should have been, detailing the resources available for research into mesothelioma. When he tabled a further Question, the column simply showed three sets of zeros. I was absolutely staggered that that could be the case, given that 56,000 British people will die of this disease before it is over.

My noble friend Lady Masham said that research means hope, and she is absolutely right about that. Without research, we can offer no hope. My noble friend Lord Pannick said that there is nothing novel about this approach and that it would be quite fanciful to suggest that the Human Rights Act could in some way be invoked. That Act ought to be invoked against the state authorities in this country for not having done something about this problem for so long.

My noble friend Lord Avebury was very generous in his remarks, but in fact I am just an apprentice compared to my noble friend. He and I have been friends for a very long time. He published a pamphlet on the subject of mesothelioma in the 1970s and has campaigned on this issue throughout the whole of his parliamentary life. I stand in awe of him on this and many other matters.

The purpose of my amendment was to start the debate. There are moments when Parliament, rather than the Government, can shape policy, and this is one of them. The Minister said that there is a chicken-and-egg cycle. In that case, let us break that cycle. Although I beg leave to withdraw this amendment now, I am sure that noble Lords would expect me to bring it back on Report.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Monday 20th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

Virtually all noble Lords mentioned the start date. The trouble is that, in principle, this is a sheep and goats situation. Any date, wherever it is set, as the noble Lord, Lord Monks, mentioned, is always arbitrary at one level. To pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, this concerns dependants as well, so if there was no start date and the date went back indefinitely, we really would be talking about a huge amount of money. We will spend a lot of time talking about this, but let us flesh out the areas of discussion.

I think that we might look in Committee at the point made by my noble friend Lord German and reinforced by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, about a cap or a different structure. Noble Lords can see my constraints, but we can look at shaping the structure in different ways. The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, asked when we would have the report on payments. It will be ready in the summer. In response to my noble friend Lord Courtown, I will say that we will have the scheme rules ready to be looked at by the time we reach Committee.

Extending this to other asbestos-related diseases was the other big issue of concern to virtually all noble Lords. The point about mesothelioma is that if you have it, you will essentially have contracted it doing a job in which there was negligence, and that it is fatal. You can fix a figure with a tariff level and you can go very fast. The objective is to reach a point within five months as compared with a typical period now of two years. Noble Lords will be conscious of the meaning behind those periods, given the prognosis of survival for up to 15 months. Getting something this quickly is really important. There may be schemes for other types of asbestos-related illness, but they could not be set up within this structure. We would have to look at something else; it could not be a simple extension.

My noble friend Lord Avebury and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked how many meetings have been held. Out of amusement, I counted them. There were 15 meetings with representatives of the insurance industry, of which seven were held in quite a tight period. You can imagine that they were being held during a time of heated negotiation. A total of 11 meetings were held with representatives of victims’ groups, lawyers and members of the all-party parliamentary group. It is not a complete balance but I took on board as much as I could as we built this.

I will not spend a lot of time tonight on the MoJ process. We will have time to do a bit more. The fundamental point is that the MoJ will launch a consultation shortly. It will go through all these issues and then come up with a scheme on the balance, taking on board all the responses. This is a major process and we will just wait for it to happen.

The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, raised the question of the scheme administrator. We are in control of this scheme and the DWP will drive the scheme rules. The scheme administrator will therefore be answerable to the Secretary of State, who will monitor whether it is doing the job that needs to be done. It is not a done deal with the ABI at this stage, though it is setting up a shadow company. If it does this successfully and if it is the administrator, it means that we can go very fast, but it is open at this stage.

My noble friend Lord German raised a key point about the assumption of negligence. What distinguishes mesothelioma from some of the other diseases is that there is no reason for it other than being exposed to asbestos in employment. There has been a general acceptance that if you were exposed to asbestos in the workplace it would be through negligence. The decision has typically been made on a balance of probabilities. We will spend more time in Committee on the important legal context of why one can do such a straightforward and rapid scheme.

I have had good warning from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that I will get an amendment proposing that some of this levy should effectively go into research. I cannot tell the noble Lord how hard I have tried to produce that result for him. I have failed to do it and we will spend time on this in Committee. There are some really complicated technical reasons why that cannot happen, mainly because, formally, a levy is a tax and it cannot go to anyone but the victims. I have tried every single route round this. If noble Lords are cleverer than me and can work their way through it differently, I will be delighted.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I am grateful to the Minister, who is obviously coming to a conclusion, for giving us a lot of his time in replying. Has he noticed that the British Lung Foundation proposal is not asking for money from the levy? It is suggesting a membership scheme for every insurance company, who would then contribute £10,000 as part of that scheme. This would raise £1.5 million each year. He will also recall that I made a point about the amount of money coming into the Treasury as a consequence of the proposals before your Lordships tonight.

Social Security (Personal Independence Payment) Regulations 2013

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

Before the Minister sits down, would he be kind enough to answer the question that my noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson and I put to him about the numbers of people who will be affected by these regulations? Before asking the House to agree them, it is surely not unreasonable for us again to put the question to him, not for the first time, of whether he disputes the figure of more than 40%—perhaps as many as 200 people in every parliamentary constituency in this country—standing to have their vehicles repatriated or sequestrated. Does the noble Lord agree with those figures? If he disputes them, what figure would he give the House?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we know how many people will get the higher mobility component, a figure that will clearly be fewer under PIP than under DLA. I have provided those figures but, just for the record, the figure of roughly 1 million people on the DLA component in a steady state will reduce to roughly 600,000. That is the decline. What we do not have, and therefore find it difficult to comment on, is a read-across from how many people are on the full mobility allowance to those who have a Motability contract, because that is a private matter. Motability runs its operation separately from us; it is a charitable operation. It is therefore impossible for us or anyone to calculate a read-across of the percentage of people on Motability contracts who will be affected.

Welfare: Personal Independence Payment

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Thursday 24th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effect of the proposed introduction of the Personal Independence Payment on the mobility of sick and disabled people; and of the omission of the words “reliably, safely, repeatedly and in a timely manner” from the text of the Regulations setting out the qualifying criteria for the payment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, the mobility component of the personal independence payment is designed to support those disabled people who face the greatest barriers to mobility. The principle that individuals must be able to complete activities safely, reliably, repeatedly and in a timely manner is integral to the assessment. We do not believe that this needs to be dealt with in regulations. However, we are looking urgently at whether it is possible to do this in a way that will achieve the outcomes that noble Lords and the Government want.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he accept that, with one-third of disabled people living in poverty and an estimated 42% fewer being eligible for mobility support—many fearing that they will become prisoners in their own homes—his admission that under the new regime some disabled people will have their specially adapted vehicles taken away from them or offered to them to buy has caused widespread disbelief and considerable distress? Will he say how many repatriations will be involved and at least ensure that those four words he has referred to—“reliably”, “safely”, “repeatedly” and “timely”—remain in the regulations, as almost every single disability rights organisation in the country have urged him and the Government to do?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I recognise the strength of feeling around retaining those words, and we are very actively looking at how to put them into the regulations in a way that works legally. I am planning to update Peers next week, on 31 January, on exactly where we have got to. We are looking to incorporate them in regulations and have a device for doing it in that way.

Workers’ Memorial Day

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Freud

Monday 23rd April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are very supportive of the report by Professor Löfstedt. He made the point in the report that legislation,

“can contribute to the confusion, through its overall structure, a lack of clarity, or apparent duplication in some areas”.

That is why we are driving through reforms designed to make the system easy to understand, easy to administer and easy to enforce.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the cruellest industrial diseases is the asbestos-related lung cancer mesothelioma, which can strike up to 40 years after exposure and has thus far claimed the lives of 30,000 workers? Is not one of the best things that the Government can do to support such workers is to respond positively to the all-party calls made in both Houses for mesothelioma victims not to have to face surrendering up to 25 per cent of their much-needed compensation to pay legal costs—compensation which they need in facing the last nine months to one year of their lives?

[Lord Freud]

I am spending considerable time on mesothelioma currently and I hope to sort out the real problem, which is the large number of people suffering from the illness who are getting no compensation at all because they cannot trace who was insuring them. I hope to see some real progress in this area—looking at the whole area of mesothelioma, both those who have been traced and those who are untraced—and to report back on that in the not too distant future, certainly before the summer.