Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd June 2020 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

I am reliably informed that, in actual fact, there has been a great deal of consultation with the Welsh Government on university numbers and, of course, shielding is a devolved matter and the hon. Lady surely would not expect us to trample all over the devolution settlement. But it is important to say that the people of the United Kingdom—Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England—expect politicians to put aside political grandstanding at the time of this crisis and work together, and the UK Government are committed to doing that.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Office for National Statistics figures show that the number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance and universal credit in Dwyfor Meirionnydd has increased by 124% since the start of lockdown. This is the biggest increase in any Welsh constituency. A pattern is appearing across Wales and the UK, with regions heavily dependent on tourism and hospitality seeing a desperate increase in unemployment. We will see a corresponding increase in rural poverty if these businesses are left defenceless and facing a three-winter scenario. Will the Minister commit today to working with the Welsh Government to create a tailored long-term package to guarantee the long-term future of the Welsh tourism and hospitality sector?

[David T. C. Davies]

I thank the right hon. Lady for the question. It is quite obvious that the lockdown will have a huge impact on our economy and it will increase unemployment figures. That is why the UK Government are committed to coming out of lockdown as quickly as it is safe to do so, and I hope that the Welsh Government and members of Plaid Cymru will also support that. I said earlier on that we look forward to rolling out a red and green carpet for visitors from across the United Kingdom, and we want to make absolutely certain that we do not see signs going up in parts of rural Wales saying, “English people are not welcome here”. We welcome tourists from all parts of the United Kingdom and beyond to see what Wales has to offer. I hope the right hon. Lady will talk to members of local authorities across north Wales to emphasise that message.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I think some more specific support would have been more useful than political points. The Minister says that both Governments will work together, but we know that this week’s student number controls announcement in response to the covid-19 pandemic was brought out without any consultation whatsoever with the Welsh Government. Given his role in the Government and his role representing Wales, what is he doing to protect the interests of the Welsh higher education sector from such potentially damaging effects and decisions made by his Government?

[David T. C. Davies]

I discussed this very issue with my officials this morning. I am assured that there was consultation between the Wales and the UK Government and that this is a UK-wide scheme that is being put in place to protect universities and to stop people poaching students from each other across the United Kingdom. I can only say once again that the UK Government are completely committed to consultation with Welsh Government. We have made it clear that Welsh Government Ministers are welcome at Cobra meetings and the ministerial implementation groups, and we have actually asked if we could attend Welsh Government meetings in the same way; thus far we have not had a response. If the right hon. Lady can put pressure on her friends in the Assembly to allow UK Welsh Government Ministers to attend Welsh Government meetings, we would be happy to do so.

Welsh Affairs

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 27th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hart]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, this issue has come up a number of times in the decade in which we have been in this House. The answer to his question is yes, but it is never as simple as it seems. All sorts of contributory factors are involved, with planning being one, but I assure him that we will take that issue seriously and look into it.

I had wanted to mention financial assistance, because it was raised during yesterday’s Welsh questions and Prime Minister’s questions. It is an important moment to restate what the Prime Minister said yesterday about money being “passported through” in relation to this. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is not here, but if he were, he would talk about this as being a Union issue, as he did yesterday. We agree that it is a Union issue, which is why we are working so closely with the Welsh Government to make sure that we know precisely what they need and when they need it, while not interfering with the devolution settlement.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Bearing in mind that the Rivers Severn and Wye have an impact on communities in England, if the Welsh Government were to approach the UK Government for additional support specifically to address that flooding, how would the Secretary of State respond?

[Simon Hart]

We will respond in the way we always do to Welsh Government requests for assistance, in whatever form it might be requested, by taking it extremely seriously and respecting the views that they express. However, in the two meetings I have had with the First Minister so far, it is clear—this is no criticism of him—that we are a long way off being able to measure precisely what that request might consist of. When it comes, we will take it seriously.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr, Madam Dirprwy Lefarydd. It is an honour to follow the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), and I join him on many of the issues he has raised about infrastructure and the potential for a tidal lagoon in north Wales. I am sure he would join me in asking the Department and the Ministers to consider the funding required and the potential for an innovation power purchase agreement in relation to funding tidal lagoons, as was presented to the Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth yesterday.

Of course, I should say: Hoffwn gymryd y cyfle hwn i ddymuno Dydd Gŵyl Ddewi hapus iawn i chi i gyd. I am sure all Members will realise from the context that I was, entirely appropriately, wishing everybody a happy St David’s Day in Welsh. For Welsh people and those of Welsh descent all over the world, no matter where we happen to be St David’s Day is a chance to come together to celebrate what it means to bear the mantle of being Welsh, whether by birth, luck or design. Many hon. Members will have taken part in excellent events this week to celebrate St David’s Day as part of Wales Week London. The best in Welsh music, art, food, tourism and heritage is proudly on display here in this city for Cymry tramor—the diaspora of Wales—in London to enjoy. This is an opportunity to showcase what we have to offer to the world. This year, for the first time, Wales Weeks are occurring in 21 places around the world, including New York, Ohio, Paris and Melbourne.

Of course, this is the first St David’s Day since our departure from the European Union, which makes flying the flag for Wales the world over more important than ever. Leaving the EU demands a discussion about what the future holds for Wales; and with our position in the world being redefined around us, we owe it to the people of Wales to set out a positive vision for the future. In the last few years, the political tectonic plates have shifted dramatically across these islands; in Ireland and in Scotland, we have seen a radical realignment of identity and politics. People are no longer willing to accept the old notion that the Celtic fringes are a colourful, cultural indulgence, humoured at best and otherwise tolerated, with the meaningful powers—I say that with an element of sarcasm—shored up where they have always been, in south-east England. With both Irish reunification and Scottish independence now discussed more widely and in more forums than ever before, it is important for us, Welsh politicians of all colours, to be under no illusion about what the future holds for Wales. In the event of the reunification of Ireland and an independent Scotland, the default setting will be the emergence of an England and Wales entity that would surely be the most imbalanced, inequitable so-called Union in the world: one nation would comprise 56 million people, the other 3 million. One would have its devolved Parliament, which would inevitably feel the strain without a wider context of devolution across the state, as the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) mentioned powerfully earlier.

Even as things currently stand, despite 20 years of devolution there are those who seek to mock, denigrate and deny the people of Wales the institutions and the powers that normal countries take for granted. There is clearly a failure on the part of the current Welsh Government, whose Ministers have failed so spectacularly to capture the hearts and minds of the people with whose Parliament they have been entrusted for 20 years. They are a Government marked by a lack of ambition, by managerialism and by a reluctance to face scrutiny—all tragically evidenced by a decline in education standards and a failing health service. Welsh Labour were given the tools to build a nation; it has kept those tools in the toolbox.

The recent floods raise questions about the performance of both the Welsh and British Governments. There has been chronic under-investment in flood-defence infrastructure and a shameful lack of response. The Prime Minister failed to call a Cobra meeting in response to the floods. The Welsh Government do not even have a Cobra-style national emergency response system. Our First Minister deemed it “too dangerous” to send in the Army to flood-stricken areas, despite their being called in to help in Yorkshire three times in seven months. It is 30 years to the week since the Towyn floods in north Wales, and the message that only preparation can prevent an emergency from turning into a disaster remains unlearned in those 30 years.

The UK Government are already acting to claw back powers to Whitehall. Take, for example, the UK shared prosperity fund. During the election campaign, the Prime Minister said that there should be a strong Conservative influence over how money that replaces EU structural funds is spent in Wales, despite the Welsh Government having controlled that EU funding over the past two decades. The Secretary of State said earlier that shared prosperity investments have to be meaningful and not vanity indulgences. Let us recall Boris’s bridges: the garden bridge in London and the bridge to Northern Ireland. To put this in context: investment in Wales must be decided in Wales. I put it to the Government that not only is the precedent intolerable, but they are setting down a short-termism precedent that may return in future. Investments for Wales should be made and decided in Wales.

Of course, an England and Wales entity already exists across key policy areas: despite 21 years of devolution, our national Parliament has no powers over policing and justice and we still lack a legal jurisdiction—the only nation in the UK to do so. I therefore wish to explore how treating Wales as an appendage of England in this respect is bad for the people of Wales, because that is exactly how we should look at and evaluate it. The issue is particularly timely because we have the upcoming police and crime commissioner elections in May, when the two excellent Plaid Cymru PCCs, Arfon Jones and Dafydd Llywelyn, will be seeking re-election.

Let us look at some specific problems in Wales in relation to policing and justice—problems to which the solutions are out of the hands of the people of Wales until the powers are devolved. Since the creation of the system of PCCs, we have seen the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice hiving over more and more responsibilities to commissioners to carry out new functions. But—this is the important point—rather than seeing a corresponding level of additional funding, we have for 10 years seen an abdication of duty on the part of the UK Government to fund the police service. It is all very well to talk about additional thousands of police officers now, but we are talking about 10 years of underfunding and what politicians with the interests of the people of Wales in mind have had to do in Wales to provide some remedy.

The PCCs have been forced to rely on raising the local tax precept. The precept for the four Welsh forces as a proportion of the overall funding increased from 32% in 2008-09 to 47% in 2019-20. They did that for good reason: to keep the police on the streets and to keep the public safe. This increase in police precepts meant that Welsh police funding was £34 million greater in 2018 than it would have been had it risen in line with that of England. We have had to find the means to do it ourselves without the sufficient powers to do so, but we have done it anyway. That is a message for all of us. None the less, this is clearly an unfair funding system, demanding a stark choice between increasing the precept and cutting services, neither of which would need to be done if the Home Office addressed the issues with a comprehensive and equitable funding formula.

The prison system in Wales is also let down by the current framework. Research carried out by Dr Robert Jones of Cardiff University’s Welsh governance centre found that in 2017 Wales had the highest prison population rate in western Europe, with 154 prisoners per 100,000 population. That is equivalent to one in every 650 people, and this is despite the fact that recorded crime in Wales was lower than in England in every year between 2013 and 2017. I wonder whether this is something to do with the fact that we have had to put our money where our mouth is in Wales. We have had to do that, and it has had an effect.

Women are more likely to receive an immediate custodial sentence than men. That is despite the fact that there are no women’s facilities in Wales. In 2016, 623 women were sentenced to immediate custody, 86 of whom were convicted for non-violent offences. They were sent to facilities in England, far away from their families—and we know the effect that that has on the children—when a more rehabilitative programme based in their communities would have been better for everyone. Wales was promised a residential unit for female offenders back in 2018, but we have yet to see it even in 2020.

Imprisonment rates among black, Asian and minority ethnic communities are even more disproportionate relative to population in Wales than in England. For every 10,000 white people in Wales, 14 are in prison. For every 10,000 black people in Wales, 91 are in prison. Further to that, BAME people have the highest average sentence length. Therefore, a person of colour in Wales is both more likely to be imprisoned and to receive a longer sentence.

Prisons are perhaps the clearest example of how an England and Wales approach simply does not work. We need to build a system that fits our purpose and is suitable for the people of Wales. Devolving policing and justice for Wales must now be a priority if we are to do better for the people of Wales, and we will, of course, be arguing for that strongly. At the same time, we will also be arguing about the specific ways that we can improve the lives of the people of Wales with the powers that we already have, because that is part of being ambitious. This includes the establishment of an economic crime unit for north Wales, dedicated to investigating fraud against the most vulnerable, and protecting those who are being increasingly exploited by fraud. That would include things such as implementing the victims’ code of practice and implementing changes to systems to provide a seamless service and support, so as to give victims increased confidence in coming forward with evidence. We will have a focus on reducing reoffending—by mainstreaming Checkpoint Cymru and the Early Action Together team, which relates to adverse childhood experiences, in the work of North Wales Police. We will also pledge, across Wales, to increase the capacity of our rural crime team to address rural criminality and wildlife crime, which is something that I am sure every Member here would agree should be a priority in Wales.

No matter what one’s position is on devolution, it is clear that designing policy on an England and Wales basis does not work at the moment. There is a chance that, in future, more policies will be designed without Wales’s specific needs taken into account—that irresistible urge to centralise powers here in Westminster.

We often hear about Brexit being a chance to bring power closer to the people, but I do fear, whatever the Conservatives say, that the reality will be the exact opposite. None the less, let us look to the future. This is Saint David’s Day. Let us look to our future and our role—all of us—in growing a stronger, more confident, more wealthy, more equitable Wales. That is what we can do here until we get the powers back home to do it properly. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 26th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hart]

I have to say that, if I was a business or individual affected by the events of the last few days, the last thing I would expect to hear in this House is the politicisation of a very difficult situation. The conversations I have had in face-to-face meetings with First Minister Drakeford in Cardiff have been constructive. He has at no stage made the observations the hon. Lady has made to me. We have made it absolutely clear that as soon as the damage is assessed we are ready to assist, notwithstanding the fact that this is a devolved responsibility, and it is absolutely right that we as a UK Government should respect the devolution settlement. I will just finish by saying that local authority leaders—[Interruption.] I will leave it at that point.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

HS2 will do next to nothing for north Wales and worse than nothing for south Wales. Yet only six miles of HS2 railway line will cost more than the crucial, first-of-its-kind tidal lagoon in Swansea, rejected by the Minister’s Tory Government. I am sure the Secretary of State agrees that low-carbon electricity generated in Wales should power the transport of the future. What will he do to get Wales-wide tidal lagoon projects back on track?

[Simon Hart]

As the right hon. Lady knows—she may even have been at the debate that I hosted in this Chamber where we discussed the matter into the early hours of the morning—it is undisputed that a tidal lagoon has a future in the UK, and in particular in Wales. The difficulty that we had over the tidal lagoon project in Swansea was in relation to the company proposal itself. So I hope that she can be reassured that this is part of the energy mix—it is part of the renewable commitment that we have made. The tidal lagoon is still under discussion.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I hope the Minister will join me in congratulating Wales Week co-founders Dan Langford and Mike Jordan on again providing excellent opportunities to celebrate Welsh business and culture in London and 21 other places around the world. I am sure the Minister will also agree that his Government have a crucial part to play in supporting Welsh businesses by ensuring that they are not undermined by future trade negotiations. Will he reassure us that, in pursuit of trade agreements with both Trump’s America and our nearest trading market, the EU, the Government will not trade off Welsh animal welfare and food standards in favour of chlorinated chicken?

[Simon Hart]

I can absolutely offer that guarantee; it is a repeat of the guarantee that has been offered by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and, indeed, the Prime Minister himself.

St David’s Day

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch, Madam Ddirprwy Lefarydd. It is a delight to follow the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) and his singing the praises of bilingualism and the other great points of Wales. I also wish to add my voice in expressing respect for those colleagues whom we have lost: Paul Flynn, who was so welcoming to me, as he had been to everybody here; and Steffan Lewis, the Assembly Member whom we lost at the desperately young age of 34. I greatly appreciate the fact that mention has been made of him. He was a great politician and a great man, whose loss we definitely feel in Wales.

I extend my sincerest thanks to the schoolchildren of Ysgol Gymraeg Llundain and Only Boys Aloud. Those of us who were lucky enough to be there this morning know that they sang absolutely wonderfully at this morning’s St David’s Day service. Only Boys Aloud’s rendition of “Nearer my God to Thee” will remain with me. Mae eich gwlad yn falch iawn ohonoch chi—your country is very proud of you.

This St David’s Day, we celebrate our nation, its culture, its people. We all know that Westminster continues to recognise Wales’s contribution to the United Kingdom; however, we cannot simply close our eyes to the fact that Westminster’s contribution to Wales still leaves us very much wanting.

Cyfiawnder—justice. Some Members of this House may not be entirely familiar with the medieval Welsh ruler Hywel Dda. His name is particularly linked with the codification of traditional Welsh law, which was thenceforth known as the laws of Hywel Dda. The latter part of his name, Dda, or da, transalates as “good”, and refers to the fact that his laws were perceived as being just that: just and good. In fact, one sees in them compassion rather than punishment, common sense and recognition of the rights of women. Fast forward to the 16th century. The last recorded case to be heard under Welsh law was in Carmarthenshire in 1540—four years after the 1536 Act of Union, which stipulated that only English law’s writ would run in Wales.

Since then, we have seen the coming of age of devolution, and this year is of course the 20th year of the National Assembly for Wales. Wales has had for 20 years its own Senedd: a Parliament and legislature, creating laws in relation to health, education and the economy. However, cyfiawnder—justice—or the lack thereof, continues to be controlled by Westminster. Although my party’s ultimate aim is to restore the true meaning of cyfraith dda—good law—handing to Wales the reins over criminal justice in its entirety, the crux of my contribution today will focus on the more immediate shortfallings of Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service and opportunities for improvement under the current model. Indeed, the Welsh Affairs Committee is currently holding an inquiry on this very subject that is due to finish soon.

The prison estate in Wales is currently controlled, managed and paid for by the Ministry of Justice, while the responsibility for providing healthcare, education, housing and emergency services sits with the Welsh Government—with no extra funding from Westminster, of course. The incoherent interaction between devolved and reserved competencies results in disjointed policy making.

First and foremost, we need improved and accurate statistics to inform proper planning in the provision of Ministry of Justice prison and probation services alongside service provider partners. We need disaggregated statistics specifically for Wales in relation to both Wales-addressed offenders and prisons in Wales, to inform scrutiny at UK and Welsh parliamentary levels. Such scrutiny has been sadly lacking, and it has proven difficult even to get information. We need statistics on reoffending rates; on offender health outcomes; on prison staff recruitment and detainment; on the use of experienced staff from Wales across the wider prison estate, otherwise known as detached duty; and on violence rates, including deaths in custody, self-harm and violence towards staff. It has in the past proven difficult to get such information. All the information should be provided for scrutiny annually to both the Welsh Affairs Committee and the relevant National Assembly for Wales Committee, and the relevant responsible Ministers from both Parliaments should be called to account.

Currently, the prison estate in Wales caters only to male prisoners, and there is only one young offenders institution in Wales. Given the geography of Wales, at the very least two residential centres should be developed for female prisoners. As we know, large-scale super-prisons simply do not work. HMP Berwyn opened in February 2017, and when it is completed and at full capacity, it will hold more than 2,000 inmates. It will be the largest prison in Europe. Not all its inmates are appropriately placed. Sixteen prisoners who were previously categorised as the most dangerous to society were held at HMP Berwyn in 2017. The prison was intended for low-risk offenders to be on a regime designed to reward good behaviour.

We were also told that HMP Berwyn would hold suitable north Wales prisoners, but evidence shows that they are still being sent to distant prisons, remote from the rehabilitation benefits of being close to home, family and potential employers. The best rehabilitation results are found in prisons located close to the communities from which offenders come and to which they will return for employment, so the Ministry of Justice should not propose another supersize prison anywhere in Wales. It would inevitably require a high percentage of English inmates to be transported considerable distances for the sake of ease and the cost of warehousing, rather than the prioritising of effective rehabilitation.

As well as the prison estate, the probation service requires immediate attention. The proposed Wales probation model still involves significant contracting out, although the proposal to bring it back into public management is to be welcomed. It is to be hoped that that will be a future model for England, too. Only yesterday, I found that in the four years since key parts of the probation system were privatised, there have been 225 charges of murder against offenders monitored by private probation contractors in the four years since their creation. That far outnumbers the 142 murder charges against high-risk criminals managed by the Government probation service over the same period. These shocking statistics show the urgent need to bring probation back into the public sector. As we have experience of in Wales, with Nadine Marshall and the tragic Conner Marshall case of 2015—the offender was managed by Working Links, which has since gone into administration—victims and for that matter offenders, too, are being failed by a system that is putting profit before public safety.

To close, I wish just to say that the word for justice in Welsh, cyfiawnder, means to make good, to make right and to make just for all. Let us make cyfiawnder Welsh for Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Even the Welsh coach, Warren Gatland, said to Eddie Jones that he would never have travelled through Newport at that time of day because of the congestion in the area. That might be light-hearted, but the reality is that the problem is causing serious reputational damage to Wales. The plan is available and makes a positive recommendation, and the money is available from the Treasury. I wish that the Welsh Government would just get on and deliver the road.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I am sure the House will join me in welcoming the serendipity of the alignment of stars whereby in every year ending in “9” since 1949, Wales has beaten England.

Wylfa Newydd was a key development underpinning north Wales growth deal projects. Now that Hitachi has pulled the plug on Wylfa, what is the Secretary of State doing to secure additional funding, specifically infrastructure investment, over and above the £120 million currently committed by the Government?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady has asked an important question, but Hitachi has paused the project and is maintaining the development consent order. It has not pulled the plug. When I met the chairman last week, he was keen to continue to engage. We will look open-mindedly at the north Wales growth deal, but it is of course a matter for local authorities and businesses to submit bids to me so that I can consider them in due course.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the potential use of Crown Estates revenue income from Wales, or other Treasury funds to support the development of energy infrastructure, and specifically to develop the tidal stream energy sector in Pembrokeshire, Llŷn and Ynys Cybi?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady has given some excellent examples of projects that could well gain support through the north or the mid Wales growth deal or the Swansea city deal. Those are the sorts of projects that I should like to explore, but of course they are bottom up. Working with the hon. Lady and with local partners, I shall be happy to see what we can do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Nigel Adams]

I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that there is no greater champion for Wales than my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. However, the hon. Gentleman raises a very serious and important point regarding Wylfa. This does affect the whole region. The Government were willing to offer a significant and generous package of potential support, but despite that, Hitachi decided that the project was still too great a commercial challenge. We are still committed to nuclear sites as part of the UK’s future energy mix, and we will also continue to support the Isle of Anglesey with initiatives such as the north Wales growth deal.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I understand from my colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth AM that, given the economic uncertainty now surrounding Hitachi’s future at Wylfa Newydd, the Welsh Government have indicated that they are prepared to commit further funds to the north Wales growth bid if Westminster makes the same commitment. Will it?

[Nigel Adams]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. We are certainly open-minded. Commitments such as this must be project-led. I reiterate that we recognise the significant impact that Hitachi’s decision will have on the region and planned investment, some of which could be co-dependent on the growth deal. We are committing £120 million, as the hon. Lady knows, and we will certainly talk to our partners in Wales. In fact, I am going there next week to talk with Ministers and stakeholders.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I greatly appreciate that the Minister sees the importance of the north Wales growth bid, particularly in relation to the news at Wylfa. It is interesting that the British Government offered Hitachi a one-third equity stake in the £20 billion nuclear power development in Ynys Môn. Now that Wylfa Newydd looks set to be the latest project to join the Welsh infrastructure scrapyard, will the Minister guarantee that his Government will use the previously promised equity to create 850 alternative, permanent and well-paid jobs in north-west Wales?

[Nigel Adams]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. We are certainly not abandoning that area of Wales. I reiterate that this was a commercial decision. We are committing £120 million to the north Wales growth deal, which we hope to get over the line as soon as practically possibly. The Government’s decision to agree to take an equity stake, to secure a strike price and to underwrite the debt on that project, was incredibly generous.

Welsh Affairs

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I would hope that the hon. Lady recognised that we have listened to the Welsh Government and the other devolved Administrations by bringing forward the amendment in the other place. We are still working with the Welsh Government to get to a position of agreement where we can gain a legislative consent motion. That we have a robust relationship is demonstrated by the fact that the First Minister and the Finance Minister, Mark Drakeford, have said that we are very close to a deal, although we are not there yet and further challenges remain.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I understand that one of the 24 areas relates to procurement, but there appears to be no formal way of negotiating on and agreeing how these powers will actually be transferred.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. As we talk about the 24 areas, we will of course want to apply the Sewel convention. That is the basis on which devolution has worked since the change to the UK constitution back in 1999. We will always want to get there by agreement, but that is the basis on which the Sewel convention works. Whatever legislation there is in the 24 areas of law that we want to use to protect the UK market, we will always seek agreement with the devolved Administrations under that convention. That demonstrates the level of co-operation between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations, and I have already mentioned my positive relationship with the Welsh Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christina Rees]

I totally agree. My surgery is full of people who are desperately trying to make ends meet and who have been subject to the terrible PIP measures.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

If the hon. Lady and her party have the best interests of Wales at heart, surely they should get behind calls for permanent membership of the customs union and the single market, because that is where the economic interests of Wales lie.

[Christina Rees]

The Labour party advocates a customs union.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I do believe that my hon. Friend, in his own manner, is agreeing with what I have just said, but I am straying from the subject I want to discuss—improving the synergy between north Wales and the north-west of England.

One of the most important areas in which that can be achieved is transport, specifically rail transport. It is a sad fact that the rail network in north Wales is, frankly, not up to dealing with the employment conditions that prevail on both sides of the border. We have previously debated the Wrexham to Bidston railway line in the House. That line is incredibly important to the people of north-east Wales, and its importance is growing, as it now links the two enterprise zones at Deeside and Wirral Waters. As north Wales Members will know, the sad fact is that if someone wants to travel from Liverpool to Wrexham, they have to get off the train at Bidston. That is an incredible inconvenience—actually, it is more than an inconvenience, as it is holding back the north Wales and north-west economy—so I was very pleased when we recently had the launch in this House of the “West and Wales Strategic Rail Prospectus”, which was attended by the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew). I was also pleased that it was attended by the Secretary of State for Transport.

It is important that we aim for a much more closely integrated transport system in that part of the world. I believe that the prospectus that was put forward at the meeting earlier this month in the House lays out a very sensible blueprint for travel in north Wales. Furthermore, it provides connectivity to the new HS2 hub that will be constructed at Crewe. My plea to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is that he works very hard with the Secretary of State for Transport on pursuing the vision of the prospectus and achieving something that will provide for the sort of rail transport that we require in north Wales.

I wish to touch on two other issues, one of which has been raised by the hon. Member for Neath: the question of the Swansea tidal lagoon. I fully accept my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s point about the importance of achieving value for money in a project of this scale. I also appreciate that it will be an expensive development, but it is fair to say that the technology that could be developed if the lagoon were constructed would give the United Kingdom, and Wales in particular, a world lead. We need an answer fairly soon on when the Government will respond to the recommendations of the Hendry report. The lagoon not only would provide a hugely important facility in terms of the generation of clean energy in Swansea, but would be a pathfinder for similar developments right around the western coast of Britain, not least in my constituency and that of the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), where a proposal for a lagoon with five times the generating capacity of Swansea is being considered. It would be possible to work this up into something that would be genuinely valuable for the United Kingdom, and I really hope that the Government will not miss this opportunity.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Does the right hon. Gentleman concur not only that Wales needs to be an exporting nation in the future and that energy gives us that potential, but that with tidal lagoons, we are looking at a situation in which our energy security could be that much safer?

[Mr Jones]

Yes, I would agree. In fact, the proposals from the developers of the Swansea lagoon are for a chain of lagoons from Lancashire right through to Somerset. That would provide virtually 24-hour-a-day generation so, again, it would be an important development for energy security. There would be other benefits too, such as for sea defences on vulnerable coasts such as that of north Wales. I again plead with my right hon. Friend to consider carefully the recommendations of the Hendry commission and to ensure that a response is made reasonably soon.

In connection with that, I also make the case, as I am sure that the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) will, for the consideration of Wylfa Newydd, which would be a hugely important element of the north Wales economy. We should also listen to suggestions for the development of small modular reactors in Trawsfynydd which, again, I suggest would represent a hugely beneficial element of the north Wales economy. 

I am conscious of your strictures about time, Madam Deputy Speaker. Despite the somewhat downbeat assessment of the Welsh economy that we heard from the hon. Member for Neath, I, as a north Wales Member, am very optimistic about the future. I think that the Government are investing strongly in the north Wales economy and I am very proud to be a Conservative Member of Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady). I did not agree with much he said, except for his comments about real ale, but I support the fact that all Members of this Parliament can be proud to be part of one great United Kingdom and be welcome to speak, which is why I am proud to be wearing my Union Jack cufflinks today.

I am grateful to all members of the Welsh Affairs Committee, past and present, not least because we all have worked diligently to reach consensus on a range of issues. Over the past few years we have examined many topics, from defence and the care of veterans in Wales to agriculture, transport, which I will return to, and the state of the economy. I have noticed that members of the Committee always get promoted extremely quickly, and it is remarkable how many are now sitting on the various parties’ Front Benches, with the exception of myself, of course, but—who knows?—the call may one day come.

Labour Members have raised their concern that they cannot discuss certain issues that affect their constituents because they are now dealt with only by English MPs. I recognise their concern, but of course that has come about because of the devolution settlement that they championed. Nobody can have their cake and eat it in a devolved fashion: they cannot, on the one hand, stop MPs in London having any say over what happens to the health service or education in Wales and, on the other hand, have that influence over what happens in England.

I share the concern, however: many constituents in the Forest of Dean have to have their primary health services delivered by Welsh GPs and are taking court action because they are unhappy with the state of the health service in Wales. They are taking court action because they want to be treated by Jeremy Hunt’s national health service. [Interruption.] Hon. Members may boo and yah, but it is a fact. They all have smartphones—they can whip them out and have a look themselves if they wish to. The reality is that where people have the choice of being treated by a Conservative-run NHS in England or a Labour-run NHS in Wales, they want to be treated by the NHS in England. It is not in the least bit surprising, because in Wales we wait longer for ambulances and in accident and emergency units; we wait much longer for surgery—26 weeks as opposed to 18 weeks; and we do not have the same access to cancer drugs.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The hon. Gentleman makes a disingenuous argument. It is not a matter of being treated in England; the problem in Wales is with being treated by a health service run by the Labour party.

[David T. C. Davies]

That is actually a very fair point, and it cannot be put down to money either, because more money is spent per head on the population in Wales than in England. Of course, Members of all Opposition parties want to talk about what they call austerity. I call it trying to balance the books. I call it a recognition that, when we have a debt of £1.7 trillion and are adding to that by borrowing £50 billion a year, the Government are quite right to get spending under control. They have done so very successfully and have reduced the deficit from £100 billion a year in 2010 to just £50 billion a year now. Every time they suggest spending reductions in any area, of course everyone jumps up and complains, and then when it turns out that the national debt has grown a little, hon. Members want to complain about that as well.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), who talks a lot of sense in a very consensual way. I know that he is a strong supporter of devolution and that he has worked with Members from across the parties here in Westminster and in Wales to make it happen. I want to join him and the Secretary of State in paying tribute to Lord Crickhowell and to Lord Richard, both of whom died recently. I have lobbied both of those guys, and I did not agree with some of the things that they did, but they listened to me. They did not always deliver, but they were true servants of the Welsh people in their respective roles.

I also want to join the Secretary of State in thanking the Backbench Business Committee for allowing us our original debate on Thursday 1 March, which was co-sponsored by the hon. Members for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) and for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts). We did not have the debate on that day, however. It was put off because of Storm Emma, which had a devastating effect on Wales. In my own constituency, huge storms ripped apart the harbour in Holyhead and caused untold damage to 80 vessels. The cruel sea really was cruel on that occasion. I am sure that the House will join me in paying tribute to the emergency services for the work that they did during Storm Emma. They dealt with snowdrifts and high winds in my constituency, and the coastguard and lifeboat services were also involved. I declare an interest as vice-president of the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. The emergency services went out and took staff to the hospitals as well as delivering essential medication and care to people in rural constituencies, and that is worth putting on record.

We are celebrating 100 years since the Representation of the People Act 1918, and I want to put on record the work that the suffragettes from Wales did in getting the vote for women. The first woman MP to be elected in Wales, in 1929, was Megan Lloyd George, in my own constituency. That showed the pioneering spirit of the county of Anglesey, which has also been seen in the field of education. Megan Lloyd George was the first Member of the House of Commons to lead a Welsh affairs debate, in the 1940s. She is historically important in that way.

Since we last met for a Welsh affairs debate in the House of Commons, we have had a general election, and there is a Welsh dimension to that, because the Prime Minister went for a walk in the hills of north Wales and thought that it was a very good idea to have a general election. We called it the hard Brexit general election, because she was seeking a mandate and an increased majority in the House, but the people of Wales and the people of the United Kingdom took away her majority.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Does the hon. Gentleman recall the story about sleeping on the slopes of Cadair Idris? It goes that one will awake either inspired or mad.

[Albert Owen]

I will take the hon. Lady’s word for it. However, I will say that the Prime Minister had told the House on several occasions that she was not going to hold a general election, but she did. She said that she wanted to put her trust in the people of the United Kingdom, and they voted overwhelmingly against a hard Brexit.

Before moving on to Brexit, particularly the links with the Republic of Ireland, I am sure that the House will join me in congratulating the island of Ireland on winning the grand slam this weekend, Wales for being the runners-up and a third Celtic nation on coming third. Eddie Jones’s smirk was wiped off his face.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mr Dirprwy Lefarydd. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) for securing the debate, which I was proud to sponsor, and it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds).

This is my first Welsh affairs debate, and I hope to uphold tradition. I am only 19 days late in taking a lead from Dewi Sant himself, and I would like to take the opportunity today—I am sure I will get away with it, as we did in the Welsh Grand Committee—to entreat all present: “Frodyr a chwiorydd, byddwch lawen a chedwch eich ffydd a’ch cred, a gwnewch y pethau bychain a welsoch ac a glywsoch gennyf i.—[Translation: Brothers and sisters, be joyful and keep your faith and belief, and do the little things you saw and heard from me.]”—It looks like I got away with it!

Dewi preached that we should remember the little things, and this evening I would like to take the opportunity to celebrate the good done on a small scale by voluntary organisations. As many Members have mentioned fluently, we are in a time of uncertainty and change. We are also still in a time of austerity and cuts to local authority budgets. I have seen in Gwynedd how important community initiatives are to maintain services and many activities in local communities.

Those in the voluntary and charitable sector in Wales fall into two categories: the voluntary and the voluntary-voluntary. The first kind are the biggish voluntary organisations, which are often the Welsh representative of a larger body. They might employ staff, run national campaigns and contract-in to provide services on behalf of public bodies. They might well have the trappings of a business and, as such, be registered as a charity. On the whole, they can look after themselves, and their misfortunes are those that can befall any large organisation but are not intrinsic to their structure. Those charities do excellent work on the national stage and also locally.

I must not fail to give a call-out to the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and the lifeboat crews of Porthdinllaen, Abersoch, Pwllheli, Criccieth, Barmouth and Aberdyfi and all their supporters. They provide an essential emergency service to leisure and commercial seafarers alike. Another essential emergency service is provided by the mountain search and rescue teams of Aberglaslyn, south Snowdonia and Aberdyfi. Those dedicated men and women often find themselves working alongside the salaried emergency services in horrendous conditions.

I would also like to make a special mention of an international charitable organisation, Rotary. Across the world, its supporters have played a magnificent role in bringing down polio as a major cause of human suffering, to the point where it is possible to track individual cases with a weekly update. Locally, dedicated volunteers like Mr and Mrs Horwood ensure that not only does the Rotary Santa float makes a festive noise around Llŷn villages before Christmas but the moneys collected are distributed among a host of local charities, including cylchoedd meithrin, youth football teams, playgrounds and school parents’ associations.

I would like to turn now to the second sort of voluntary organisation—the very local set-up, generally based in one village or community and dedicated to one particular aspect or cause, from providing lifts to a local hospital to running an eisteddfod. They include O Ddrws i Ddrws, with its on-call bus services and round-Llŷn summer bus route, to Eisteddfod Ceidio and scores of other tiny eisteddfodau in village halls, chapels and vestries across Wales.

Those small organisations are the bread and butter of the voluntary sector—the essential glue of communities. They encapsulate the spirit of Dewi Sant’s endorsement of the importance of the little things—y pethau bychain—and yet they sometimes struggle to survive from year to year. One reason is that they often have no status and no legal personality, with charitable status being in their eyes inappropriate and too big and bureaucratically burdensome a step to take. If and when the committee secretary retires, the charismatic founder moves on or dies, the committee falters because of age or ill health or there is a combination of all those factors, the organisation falters and may cease to exist. We are all too familiar with that scenario. The handover from one generation to another is fraught with obstacles and risk.

I propose that we need an intermediate status for these organisations in Wales, which is more than a collection of interested individuals who may come and go, and less than a registered charity. Such a status exists in other countries, allowing “associations”, as they are called, to register locally with municipalities and with the minimum of red tape. They then have the status needed to apply for grants and reclaim VAT, and when members cease to be involved, the association itself is more likely to continue, as it has a certain amount of formal supportive structure to carry it through times of change such as we are in now. We have an opportunity to enable a slightly more structured approach to community activity that is suitable for the voluntary-voluntaries, with the prospect of greater continuity allowing communities to identify and redefine themselves over time—the people who do the charity bike rides, the mountain races, the lifts to hospital or the eisteddfod.

To close, as I illustrated earlier, many local initiatives could benefit from such a provision in my constituency and, I would venture, in constituencies across Wales. It is a model for ensuring a modicum of public accountability, without too much of an administrative burden, that is particularly suited to the way Welsh local life is constituted. We are, after all, as a community of communities. The way we organise our civic society should reflect this, and I recommend the association model to the House for further consideration. It encapsulates what St David—Dewi Sant—said: “Gwnewch y pethau bychain”.

Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales (Morning sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[Alun Cairns]

Rydw i’n falch fod y Foneddiges anrhydeddus wedi gofyn y cwestiwn. Y peth sydd wrth wraidd y cynlluniau twf a’r bargeinion dinesig yw bod y grym yn nwylo’r awdurdodau lleol a busnesau lleol. Felly, rydym yn rhoi cyfle at ei gilydd ac, yn amlwg, yn gobeithio bydd y Foneddiges anrhydeddus yn fodlon cydweithio gyda’r cymunedau a’r busnesau er mwyn eu bod yn cyflawni’r cynlluniau ac i ddod â realiti i’r broses wrth ei bod yn datblygu.

Fel Aelodau Seneddol o bob cwr o Gymru, mae’n bwysig ein bod i gyd yn rhan o’r broses hon. Felly, rwyf yn falch iawn y llwyddodd gymaint ohonoch i ymuno â Swyddfa Cymru cyn y Nadolig i glywed yn uniongyrchol gan ein partneriaid lleol ynglŷn â’u cynnydd yng ngogledd Cymru. Yn amlwg, mae angen mwy o waith i gefnogi’r gwaith da sydd wedi mynd o’i flaen.

(Translation) I am glad that the hon. Lady asked that question. What lies at the heart of the growth and city deals is that the power lies in the hands of local authorities and local businesses, so we are giving them an opportunity to come together. We hope that she is willing to work with communities and businesses to achieve the deals and to make them a reality as they develop.

It is important that Members of Parliament from all parts of Wales are part of the process. I was therefore delighted that so many of the Members present were able to join us before Christmas to hear directly from local partners on the progress that they are making in north Wales. Obviously, we need more work in that regard to support the good work that has taken place already.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Mae angen i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol fod yn effro i’r perygl o weithio’n drawsffiniol: y bydd yr ardaloedd tlotaf, sef yr ardaloedd yn y gorllewin, o hyd yn olaf yn y dewisiadau. Rydym wedi cael yr un profiad gyda chysylltedd, lle mae dechrau gyda’r prif drefi yn golygu bod y cymunedau pellaf i ffwrdd yn cael eu anghofio erbyn y diwedd.

(Translation) The Secretary of State must be alive to the dangers of working on a cross-border basis: that the poorest areas—those in the west—will be left behind. That is the same problem we have had with connectivity, which started in the main towns, so the most remote communities were ultimately forgotten.

[Alun Cairns]

Rwyf yn falch iawn fod y cwestiwn yna wedi cael ei ofyn. Rwyf yn deall y peryg ac yn ymwybodol o’r sensitifrwydd. Mae’n rhaid bod y partneriaid lleol yn ymateb i hyn, er mwyn bod setliad gan bawb. Os nad yw pawb yn gytûn, yn amlwg, bydd y bargen dinesig a’r bargen twf ddim yn cael cefnogaeth gen i na’r partneriaid lleol eraill. Mae’n rhaid fod pawb yn gytûn yn y broses. Rwyf yn awyddus i weld busnesau ledled y rhanbarth a thu hwnt yn hybu'r bargeinion hyn, gan adeiladu ar gryfderau'r ardaloedd—pob ardal—gweithio'n drawsffiniol a rhoi hwb i'r economi lleol.

Roedd y Gyllideb hefyd yn cydnabod bod angen gwella ein rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd, gan roi hwb i gysylltiadau a gwella teithiau i gwsmeriaid ar y trenau mwyaf diweddar.

(Translation) I am very glad that that question was asked. Obviously, I understand the risk, and I am aware of the sensitivity that arises. Local partners must respond to that to ensure that the settlement is for everyone, because if everyone is not agreed, obviously the city or growth deal would not be supported, whether by me or by other local partners. Everyone must be agreed on the process. I am keen to see businesses across the region and from further afield driving the deals, building on the strength of the regions—that is all regions, cross-border too—and boosting the local economy.

The Budget also recognised the need to see further improvements to our rail network, boosting connectivity and delivering better journeys on the newest trains.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

Mae’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus yn gwneud pwynt cywir iawn a byddaf yn dychwelyd i’r pwyntiau hynny yn hwyrach yn fy araith.

(Translation) The hon. Gentleman makes a very valid point, and I will return to the issues he raises.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

A fyddai fy Nghyfaill anrhydeddus yn cydymdeimlo gyda ffermwyr fyddai’n disgwyl gyda’r bunt wan y byddai defaid o faint bach yn gwerthu’n dda ar y cyfandir? Nid dyma’r neges a glywaf gan fy ffermwyr i ym Meirionydd.

(Translation) Does my hon. Friend sympathise with farmers who would expect smaller sheep to sell well on the continent, even though that is not the message that I am hearing from farmers in Meirionnydd?

[Jonathan Edwards]

Mae hynny’n wir. Roeddwn yn darllen rhywbeth ddoe bod disgwyl y bydd pris defaid, yn enwedig, a chig yn syrthio’n ddifrifol os mae Cymru’n ffeindio’i hunan y tu allan i’r undeb tollau. Mae’r peryglon ar gyfer y sector amaethyddol, sydd yn ein gwynebu yn y dyfodol agos, yn beryglus iawn. Mae ein arweinydd seneddol yn codi pwynt dilys iawn.

(Translation) That certainly is the case. I was reading something yesterday that said that the price of sheep, and of meats in general, is expected to fall significantly if Wales finds itself outside the customs union. The risks for the agricultural sector in the very near future are huge. Our parliamentary leader raises a very valid point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

Mae’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus yn codi pwynt dilys. Ces i ddim y cyfle i wneud y pwynt yma yn ystod y ddadl, ond yn bersonnol byddwn i wedi moyn symud y Senedd allan o Lundain. Rydw i’n credu byddai hynny wedi bod yn symbol o’r angen i ddatganoli’n economaidd y Wladwriaeth Brydeinig. O ystyried bod y penderfyniad bellach wedi cael ei wneud—rwy’n llongyfarch y Bonheddwr anrhydeddus ar ennill ar ei welliant—dylem nawr fanteisio ar y cyfle i sicrhau bod y buddsoddiad hynny yn cael ei wasgaru ledled y Wladwriaeth Brydeinig. Rwy’n credu bod yna job wirioneddol i’w wneud ar hynny, ac rwy’n edrych i’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus i gynnig arweiniad, o ystyried mai fe sydd wedi arwain y ddadl i aros fan hyn—dyna job fach iddo fe dros y blynyddoedd nesaf.

(Translation) The hon. Gentleman raises a valid point. I did not have the opportunity to make this point during the debate, but I wanted to move Parliament away from London, because that would be a symbol of the need to devolve the British states economically, too. Given that a decision has been made—I congratulate him on getting his amendment to that motion through—we should take every opportunity to ensure that that investment is spread across Britain. There is a real job to be done there, and I look to him to give leadership on that over the next few months, given that he has led the debate for remaining here.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Ar destun yr ardoll brentisiaethau, onid yw’n amser i ni gael mwy o eglurdeb ynglyn â chwmnïau gyda’u prif swyddfeydd tu allan i Gymru a gyda gweithwyr o Gymru, a’r arian sydd yn cael ei drosglwyddo o’r Trysorlys fan hyn i Gaerdydd? Yn enwedig, mae’r ardoll o 0.5% yn cael ei chodi ar gyflogres pedwar Heddlu Cymru, ond nid yw hynny o ddewis Llywodraeth Cymru ac nid ydyw’n cael ei rhoi tuag at hyfforddiant yr heddlu.

(Translation) On apprenticeships, is it not time for us to get greater clarity on businesses that are headquartered outside Wales but have workers from Wales, with respect to the money that is transferred from the Treasury to Cardiff? In particular, the levy is raised on the four police forces of Wales, which can apply to their wage packets, but it does not come under the responsibility of the Welsh Government and it does not reach the police’s training budgets.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Mae hynny’n bwynt hollol deg o ran prentisiaethau plismona. Yn sicr, bydd Aelodau ein plaid ni yn ei godi yn y ddadl ar Lawr y Tŷ prynhawn yma. Y cwestiwn sylfaenol yw: pam y dylid gwario arian trethdalwyr Cymru ar brosiectau yn Lloegr tra bod Llywodraeth Prydain yn gwrthod buddsoddi mewn prosiectau Cymreig ac mewn gwirionedd yn torri addewidion megis trydaneiddio’r rheilffordd i Abertawe? Rydym ni wedi clywed lot yn barod am y pwnc hynny yn ystod y ddadl.

Os yw Llywodraeth Prydain eisiau codi cynhyrchedd mewn ardaloedd daearyddol sydd yn perfformio’n wael, rhaid iddynt ailgyfeirio buddsoddiad i’r ardaloedd hynny yn hytrach na lluchio popeth at Lundain. Mae pawb bellach yn cytuno bod buddsoddiad estynedig, tymor hir mewn seilwaith yn un o ragofynion llwyddiant economaidd. Os edrychwn ar fuddsoddiad o’r fath dros y degawdau aeth heibio, yr hyn a welwn yw cyfran anghymesur o fuddsoddiad o’r fath yn mynd i Lundain a de-ddwyrain Lloegr. Gallwn edrych ar HS1, lein y Jiwbilî, lein Victoria, Crossrail 1, Crossrail 2, yr M25 a HS2. Ni fu buddsoddiad cyffelyb yn unrhyw wlad na rhanbarth arall o’r Deyrnas Gyfunol. Pam? Oherwydd nifer o ffactorau, gan gynnwys agwedd Lundain-ganolog y pleidiau Unoliaethol. Gall hefyd fod oherwydd y modelau economaidd a ddefnyddir wrth werthuso buddsoddiadau o’r fath.

O ystyried y swyddi sydd wedi eu canoli yn Llundain, mae’r elw tymor byr ar bob punt a fuddsoddir mewn seilwaith yn debygol o fod yn uwch yno na mewn rhannau eraill o’r wladwriaeth Brydeinig. Mae hyn yn ei dro yn arwain at sbiral lle mae symiau cynyddol o fuddsoddiad trafnidiaeth yn mynd i Lundain, ac yn eu tro mae’r rhanbarthau tlotaf yn mynd a’r sbiral tuag at i lawr. Mae yma wers inni yng nghyd-destun Cymru. Fel dywedodd fy Nghyfaill anrhydeddus dros Geredigion, mae’r buddsoddiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru wedi’i anelu’n fwyfwy at Gaerdydd a’r de-ddwyrain yn hytrach na chael ei wasgaru ar draws ein gwlad.

Yn 2015-16, yr oedd gwariant cyhoeddus ar drafnidiaeth yn £973 y pen yn Llundain o gymharu â £444 yng Nghymru. Petai lefel y gwariant yng Nghymru yr un fath ag yn Llundain, buasem yn derbyn £1.6 biliwn yn ychwanegol y flwyddyn i’w fuddsoddi. Mae’r anghydraddoldebau cyfoeth mor ddifrifol yn y wladwriaeth Brydeinig fel y dylid anfon swyddogion y Trysorlys i’r Almaen i ddysgu gan yr Almaenwyr sut y gwnaethant ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau cyfoeth daearyddol yn dilyn cwymp wal Berlin.

(Translation) That is an entirely fair point. Members of our party will return to that point on apprenticeships in policing in this afternoon’s debate on the Floor of the House. The fundamental question we must ask is why Welsh taxpayers’ money should be spent on English projects while the British Government refuse to invest in Welsh projects, and renege on promises such as the electrification of the main line to Swansea. We have heard much about that already. If the British Government want to raise productivity in low-performing areas, they must redirect investment into those areas, rather than throwing everything at London.

It is widely agreed that sustained long-term investment in infrastructure is a prerequisite of economic success. In recent decades, a disproportionate amount of that investment has been made in London and the south-east of England, such as that on HS1, the Jubilee line, the Victoria line, Crossrail 1, Crossrail 2, the M25 and HS2. There has been no comparable investment in any other country or region of the UK. Why? It is due to a number of factors, including the Unionist parties’ London-centric approach. It may also be because of the economic models employed in evaluating such investments.

Given the concentration of employment in London, the short-term return on every pound invested in infrastructure is likely to be higher there than in other parts of the UK. That, in turn, leads to a spiral, in which ever-increasing amounts of investment in transport go to London, and the poorest regions spiral downwards. I believe there is a lesson there for us about the Welsh context. My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion made the point that Welsh Government investment is targeted more and more at Cardiff and the south-east, rather than being spread across the nation.

In 2015-16, identifiable public expenditure per capita was £973 in London, compared with £444 in Wales. If the level of spending in Wales were the same as it is in London, we would receive an extra £1.6 billion per annum for investment. The wealth inequalities are so important that Treasury officials should be sent to Germany to learn how it went about addressing the geographical wealth inequalities following the fall of the Berlin wall.

Essentially, Germany made a strategic decision to deal with the wealth inequalities in the reunified Germany, which was based on operating aids and tax incentives for the poorer regions, and the deliberate redirection of foreign direct investment into the poorer parts of the state.

Yn niffyg hynny, rhowch inni yng Nghymru yr arfau i fwrw ymlaen â’r dasg o adeiladu ein gwlad ein hunain, oherwydd dengys hanes nad yw aros am Lywodraethau San Steffan—o ba bynnag liw—i gyflawni pethau ar gyfer Cymru yn debyg o ddelio â’n problemau. Mae Cymru wedi dioddef nid yn unig o ddiffyg sylw a buddsoddiad gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ond o flerwch llawer Llywodraeth Lafur yng Nghymru a’u hanallu i gyflawni. Mae eu hymdrech ddiweddaraf i greu strategaeth economaidd yn rhyfeddol am ei bod heb unrhyw ddangosyddion perfformiad allweddol i fod yn ganllaw i’r sawl sydd i fod i weithredu’r strategaeth ac i alluogi’r gweddill ohonom i fesur pa mor llwyddiannus yw’r strategaeth.

Roedd y Gyllideb yn wan iawn. Ystyriwn y gwyliau treth stamp. Dywedodd Pwyllgor Dethol y Trysorlys, Swyddfa Cyfrifoldeb y Gyllideb a’r Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid y bydd polisi’r Llywodraeth o roi gwyliau treth stamp, y buont mor uchel eu cloch yn ei gylch, yn gwthio prisiau tai i fyny o ryw 0.3%, gyda’r rhan fwyaf o’r cynnydd yn digwydd eleni. Yn y Gyllideb, neilltuwyd £3 biliwn yn ychwanegol i gynllunio am Brexit. Felly yn hytrach na £350 miliwn yr wythnos i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, yr ydym yn gwario yn agos i £58 miliwn yr wythnos ar fiwrocratiaid y wladwriaeth Brydeinig—ac nid ydynt hwy, hyd yn oed, fel petaent yn rhoi’r atebion mae’r Llywodraeth eisiau eu clywed i’r cwestiynau nad oeddent eisiau eu gofyn.

Er iddynt gynnig rhyw godiad pitw o £2.8 biliwn i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn Lloegr dros y tair blynedd nesaf, mae hyn yn edrych fel rhywbeth rhy fach yn rhy hwyr, gan ystyried y storïau yn y wasg dros y misoedd diwethaf. Yng nghanol argyfwng y gaeaf, gwelwn effeithiau tan gyllido cronig yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn Lloegr. Mae’n amlwg na allwn ymddiried yn y Ceidwadwyr i ofalu am y gwasanaeth iechyd yn Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, dyw record Llafur yng Nghymru ddim llawer gwell. Fel gyda’r rhan fwyaf o bethau, maent yn siarad digon o eiriau teg yn San Steffan, ond lle maent mewn grym, mae’r stori yn wahanol iawn.

Mae’r newidiadau i’r credyd cynhwysol—universal credit—a chynlluniau i wneud i ffwrdd â’r cyfnod cychwynnol o saith diwrnod i hawlwyr pan na fuasent wedi bod yn gymwys i gael budd-daliadau, a lleihau’r cyfnod aros presennol o chwech wythnos i’r rhan fwyaf o hawlwyr i bump wythnos, i’w groesawu. Ond mae hyn yn gyfystyr, mewn gwirionedd, a rhoi plaster ar goes sydd wedi torri. Mae’r ffordd ddi-drefn y cyflwynodd y Llywodraeth y credyd cynhwysol, a’r modd y gweinyddir cynlluniau lles yn ehangach, yn gywilyddus. Mae ymwneud â chwmnïau preifat mewn lles yn anfoesol ac yn anghyfrifol. Ni ddylai cwmnïau fel Capita elwa o drueni pobl eraill. Rydym yn croesawu’r dreth ar werthiannau a gynhyrchir yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol a fydd yn effeithio ar fusnesau digidol mawr fel Apple a Google. Ond unwaith eto, fodd bynnag, gwyddom fod y Torïaid yn gwrthwynebu llawer o newid yn strwythur ein sustem dreth, sydd ar hyn o bryd â thyllau dianc sy’n caniatáu osgoi gwerth £13 biliwn mewn trethi, a pheidio â thalu mwy fyth. Doedd dim ymrwymiad penodol i gynyddu cyflogau gweithwyr y sector cyhoeddus, y rhewyd eu cyflogau—ac a gapiwyd wedyn ar 1%—ers 2010. Diolch i chwyddiant, mae hyn yn golygu fod cyflogau nyrsys wedi eu torri mewn gwirionedd o 14%. Mae Cymru yn dal i dderbyn llai y pen na Llundain. Yn anffodus, mae’r blaid Lafur yn methu gwneud yn iawn am y cam yng Nghymru, er fod ganddynt y pwerau i wneud hyn, fel mae’r Llywodraeth SNP wedi llwyddo i wneud yn yr Alban.

Mae Cymru’n dal yn derbyn llai y pen na Llundain. Yma mae rhai o gymunedau tlotaf Ewrop ac mae toriadau enfawr mewn cyllid o ganlyniad i Brexit. Mae’n her sylweddol i sectorau allweddol ein economi. Ac eto, mae’r Canghellor yn dewis defnyddio ystadegau fyddai’n fwy addas i un o fysiau mawr coch yr Ysgrifennydd Tramor i honni y bydd cynnydd o £1.2 biliwn yng nghyllid cyhoeddus Cymru o Gyllideb yr hydref. Roedd yn ddiddorol iawn yn ystod cyflwyniad yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol: wnaeth e ddim defnyddio’r ffigwr hynny yn benodol yn ei araith, gan ei fod yn gwybod, fel dywedodd arweinydd Aelodau Seneddol Cymreig y blaid Lafur yma heddiw, bod dros hanner yr arian hwnnw yn fenthyciadau—neu fiscal transactions—y bydd yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru dalu yn ôl.

Doedd dim sôn am drydaneiddio’r rheilfyrdd, sydd wedi ei ganslo er yr addewid a roddwyd; dim sôn am y morlyn llanw ym Mae Abertawe, a dim golwg ohono yn y Gyllideb; a chyllid i wasanaethau datganoledig rhyw £750 miliwn yn is nag ar ddechrau’r ddegawd. Dyna record y Llywodraeth Brydeinig pan mae’n dod at Gymru. Mae stori’r Gyllideb hon yn hollol glir: nid yw San Steffan yn becso am Gymru.

(Translation) Failing that, give us in Wales the tools to move ahead with the job of building our own country. History demonstrates that waiting for Westminster Governments of whatever colour to deliver for Wales is unlikely to address our problems. Wales has suffered not only from the UK Government’s lack of attention and investment, but from successive Labour Governments’ ineptitude in Wales and their inability to deliver. The latest effort to create an economic strategy is remarkable in that the strategy is without any measurable key performance indicators to guide those who are to implement it and enable the rest of us to gauge how successful its implementation is.

Let me turn to some specific aspects of the Budget, which was very weak. The Treasury Committee, the Office for Budget Responsibility and the Institute for Fiscal Studies stated that the Government’s policy of a stamp duty holiday, which they were so vocal about, will push house prices up by 0.3%, and that most of the increase will come through this year. The Budget provided £3 billion to plan for Brexit. Rather than the £350 million for the health service that we were promised, we are spending almost £58 million per week on bureaucracy in the British state. The bureaucrats are not even providing the answers that the Government want to hear.

The minute increase of £2.8 billion for the NHS in Wales is too little, too late, given the stories in the press in the past few months. The winter crisis has shown the impact of the chronic underfunding of the NHS in England. It is clear that we cannot trust the Conservatives to take care of the NHS in England. However, Labour’s record in Wales is not much better. Labour Members speak warm words in Westminster, but when they are in power the story is very different indeed.

The changes to universal credit, including the plan to do away with the initial period of seven days in which claimants cannot receive payments and the reduction of the waiting time from six weeks to five weeks for most claimants, are to be welcomed, but they amount to putting a plaster on a broken leg. The chaotic way in which universal credit was introduced and the way that welfare is administered more generally is disgraceful. The involvement of private companies is immoral and irresponsible. Companies such as Capita should not benefit from the misery of others. We welcome the introduction of a tax on sales generated in the UK, which will affect companies such as Apple and Google, but we know that the Tories are opposed to making changes to our tax structure, which contains loopholes that allow for the avoidance of £13 billion of taxation.

The Budget contained no specific commitment to increase public sector pay, which has been frozen and capped at 1% since 2010. Thanks to inflation, that means that nurses have had a real-terms cut to their salaries of 14%. The Labour party, unfortunately, has not put that right in Wales, as the Scottish National party Government managed to do in Scotland, despite having the power to do so.

Wales still gets less per capita than London. It has some of the poorest communities in Europe, and there are huge cuts to budgets as a result of Brexit, and significant challenges to crucial sectors of our economy. Yet the Chancellor chooses to use statistics that would be more appropriate for one of the Foreign Secretary’s red buses, to claim an increase of £1.2 billion in the Welsh budget emerging from the autumn Budget. It was interesting that the Secretary of State did not use that figure during his opening remarks, because he knows that, as the shadow Secretary of State for Wales said here on behalf of Welsh Labour MPs, more than half of that is fiscal transactions that the Welsh Government will have to repay.

There was no mention of the electrification of rail, which has been cancelled, despite the pledge that was given; there was no talk of the tidal lagoon in Swansea Bay, and no sign of that in the Budget either; and funding for devolved services is lower by some £750 million than it was at the beginning of the decade. That is the record of the British Government with respect to Wales. The story of the Budget is clear: Westminster does not care about Wales.

Social Mobility (Wales)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under you as Chair, Mrs Moon.

I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) on securing the debate and on the very considered and thoughtful way in which he opened it. He covered a number of the issues, and I propose to focus my remarks on early years, vocational qualifications, and the academic sphere and our elite universities.

The early years are without doubt extraordinarily important. A lot of data suggest that by the age of seven people’s likely GCSE results can be predicted, which suggests that the biggest difference can be made in those very early years of life. In that regard, I praise the important work of the Welsh Government focusing on the early years. As the years go by, clearly that investment will feed through.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern about Wales’s performance in the PISA—programme for international student assessment—tables? Endeavours to improve teaching and learning in Wales should be concentrated on releasing teachers to be trained, unlike some of the temporary initiatives we have seen in the past.

--- Later in debate ---

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Moon. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) on securing this debate and on the considered way that he introduced it.

As chair of the all-party group on social mobility and a Member who represents a constituency that has not only a border but many economic, cultural and political links with Wales, I have two reasons for participating in the debate. As we all know, it does not matter whether someone lives in Bangor, Buckley or Birkenhead; in too many parts of this country, their place of birth can override their ability and potential, and generation after generation struggles against entrenched disadvantage that should put us all to shame. We have mistakenly and unquestioningly accepted the myth that greater economic growth leads to increased opportunity for all, despite overwhelming evidence that tells us otherwise.

Earlier this year, my APPG published a report entitled “Increasing access to the leading professions”. It looked at opportunities in law, finance, the arts, media, medicine, the civil service and politics, and found that, whatever the profession, there is a similar lack of opportunity and similar reasons for that. Privilege and opportunity go hand in hand across the board. For example, Sutton Trust research shows that three quarters of senior judges, more than half the top 100 news journalists and more than two thirds of British Oscar winners attended private schools.

The APPG recommended that there should be a legal ban on unpaid internships lasting more than a month. We found that their unpaid nature was not the only barrier: many of those placements are in London, which means that unless someone is from that area and has parents who can support them for an extended period, there is no prospect of them being able even to consider such an internship.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the excellent Speaker’s internship scheme should consider providing means for people to afford accommodation in London, so that we can reach out to people who could not otherwise gain from such paid experiences?

[Justin Madders]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. We took evidence from several successful applicants to the Speaker’s internship scheme. The geographical challenges were certainly very apparent, and that ought to be fed back.

How can anyone from outside London—from the north-west of England, Wales or anywhere else in the UK—go and do unpaid placements in London for months on end? There also need to be fair, transparent and open recruitment processes for such placements, which we found are often determined by existing connections, be they family or business contacts. The same rigour needs to be applied to those placements as would be applied if they were permanent jobs, otherwise we may just ease the path for people who are already on it.

One simple change could make a big difference to improving social mobility. There is a private Member’s Bill in the other place that seeks to end unpaid work placements. However, given what we have seen so far in terms of Government action, that does not seem easy to deliver in practice. Although I understand that responsibility for social mobility rests primarily with the Department for Education, any action on unpaid internships must be taken by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. There has of course been no action, which proves Alan Milburn’s recent point that commitment to social mobility does not spread out across the whole of the Government. It needs to. Yes, it is to do with early years, schools and universities, but it also involves the world of work, housing and health. The Social Mobility Commission provided us with a wholesale national analysis of all those issues, but the Government’s response is too often constrained by Departments’ silo mentality, which is sometimes exacerbated by devolved responsibilities getting in the way.

I am sure that if I asked a group of young people from many of the constituencies represented in the Chamber what they wanted to do when they are older, they would not say they wanted to be a doctor, a lawyer or an actor. For too many young people, the very notion that they should even consider such careers is almost universally absent. They need role models, mentors and inspirers—people from their communities who have been there and done it. We need to inspire young people from an early age to aim for wherever their abilities and interests take them. We should not accept that coming from the wrong part of town means low horizons. Getting a job should mean following dreams and forging a career, not simply working to survive.

In keeping with the Welsh theme, we were fortunate to have Michael Sheen give evidence to the APPG. There is no doubt that he is an inspirer and mentor for the kids of Port Talbot. We are not going to get a Michael Sheen in every constituency, but I hope there will be others in every other town who will provide similar inspiration.

Mentorship and inspiration are important, but without academic equality they will not be sufficient. The Sutton Trust report, “Global Gaps”, looks at attainment gaps across 38 OECD countries and as a result can pinpoint how each of the devolved Administrations is performing. Unfortunately, it showed Wales performing rather poorly compared with other industrialised nations, in particular in reading and mathematics, where the skills of the most able pupils are some way behind those of pupils in comparable nations. On a more positive note, it did say that the gap between the most able, advantaged and disadvantaged pupils in Wales was relatively small compared to other industrialised nations. However, sadly, the report concludes that the situation for high-achieving pupils across the whole of the UK is “stagnant at best”.

Stagnation is a good description of where we are now. I urge all Members, if they have not already done so, to read the Social Mobility Commission’s latest “State of the Nation” report, which paints a bleak picture of a deeply divided nation in which too many people are trapped in geographical areas or occupations with little hope of advancement or progression. It talks about an “us and them” society, in which millions feel left behind. Specifically, the report talks about major changes to the labour market in recent decades, which have imprisoned 5 million workers in a low-pay trap from which there appears to be no escape. The report highlights places that offer good prospects for income progression and those that do not, showing that real social mobility is in fact a postcode lottery, with the worst problems concentrated in remote rural or coastal areas and former industrial areas—that description will be familiar to Members in the Chamber today—not only in Wales but in England.

Encouragingly, the report finds that well-targeted local policies and initiatives adopted by local authorities and employers can buck the trend and positively influence outcomes for disadvantaged residents. In short, where there is a will and strong leadership, things can be done.

This country is too closed. It is a country where too often people’s life chances are defined by where they are born and who they are born to. We are now in a world where many parents believe their children will have less opportunity than they did, and I deeply regret that. Automation and artificial intelligence will only exacerbate the problem, and we are miles away from even beginning to understand the social impact that will have. The only way we will be able to meet those challenges in the future is by intensive, long-term Government intervention, not just at the ages of five or 15, but at 35 and 50 and so on. The world of work will change more rapidly than ever before, and we need to recognise that opportunity will need to be addressed not just in our younger years, vital though that is, but throughout our lives. We have to invest in ourselves through all of our working lives, but we cannot do that without Government support.

We have heard about the geographical divide, and the APPG is looking at that, but there is also a generational divide. I do not believe that the recent election was a ringing endorsement of the status quo. What we saw was that the more young people engaged with the question of what they want from their Government, the more they turned away from the existing set-up, and who can blame them? Do they want to better themselves and study at university? Yes, there are opportunities, but they come with eye-watering debt that may never be paid off. Want to own a home? Unless the bank of mum and dad is there to fall back on, there could be a very long wait. Want to build a career in a profession doing something rewarding financially and intellectually? Those opportunities exist for the few, not the many.

The more likely experience for our young people in the job market is casual work, low pay and chronic insecurity. It is time we offered them hope. Across the years, across the Government and across the nations, we need total commitment to delivering opportunity for all.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mrs Moon. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I thank the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for securing this important debate, and I am honoured to follow the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), who made a considered and quite inspiring speech.

To speak plainly, responsibility for social mobility lies with the National Assembly. The Welsh Government have a crucial role to play in reducing inequality in Wales, but it is also true that every decision taken in Westminster has a very real impact on people’s prospects in Wales, whether it be on social security, digital connectivity or infrastructure, to name just those areas I intend to concentrate on today. I have to return to my expertise in a former life—I was a director in a large further education establishment—and I must reiterate the integral role that education plays in promoting social mobility.

In one of the earlier speeches, early years, vocational education and higher education were mentioned. Those, in terms of funding, targets, quality of achievement and the curriculum, are entirely within Labour’s remit in Wales. It is important to emphasise that in the role that we expect education to play. I have seen how the effects of the political choices made in different areas of Wales have played out, and it would be extremely disingenuous of me not to remind the Chamber of the role of Labour in that respect. However, today I intend to be “on location” and direct my arguments to the Minister.

One other thing I would like to question slightly is using Oxbridge as our measure of success. It is interesting that so many people here attended Oxford and Cambridge, but we should be building a society where someone can gain that capability and confidence without having public, or private, school education and Oxbridge university education behind them. We should be building that in Wales for our young people to achieve near to their own homes.

In the effort to champion social mobility, redistribute wealth and provide opportunity, every socioeconomic pillar must carry its load. The Government are failing to raise the people of Wales through the measures in their remit of social security, infrastructure and digital connectivity in particular. Changes to social security made by the Government will hit the poorest areas hardest. Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies has revealed that Westminster’s benefit cuts will trigger a rise of over 5% in child poverty in Wales, compared to 1.5% in London. Wales remains the only country in western Europe without an inch of electrified railway, and all the while Welsh taxpayers are contributing towards High Speed 2. We hear disingenuous arguments as to how HS2 will benefit us. Frankly, I have concerns about how it will affect services from Cardiff to Manchester via Crewe and services along the north Wales line as well.

Only yesterday, we read reports in the Financial Times that the Westminster Government are having cold feet over the Swansea bay tidal lagoon project—we already had that impression—which is an investment that would bring £316 million of gross value added in its construction alone. What about digital connectivity? Recently, the Westminster Government invested significant sums to improve broadband infrastructure in three of the four UK nations—but not in Wales. They found £20 million for ultrafast broadband in Northern Ireland and £10 million was found for full-fibre broadband in six trial areas across England and Scotland, yet nothing for Wales. According to Ministers, the decision on where to invest the money was based on how likely they believed it was that the investment would stimulate short-term economic growth, effectively to boost headline statistics. That is where the fundamental problem lies and where the link between social mobility in Wales and Westminster’s priority is at its weakest.

It is not the Government’s job to pick who wins and who loses in the British state; it is their job to provide equality of opportunity. There is of course a complex link between regional inequality and social mobility. Poverty in the UK is particularly concentrated in Wales, affecting nearly one in four people, while the UK poverty rate remains at 16.8%. Median weekly salaries stand at £393 in Wales, compared with £434 in England. When I hear about the employment rate, yes, I am delighted that people are in full-time worthwhile work, but I also know of people in my constituency who are holding down three or four jobs in order to make a living. There must be a question about salaries and regional inequality in the United Kingdom.

In the past 10 years, under successive Westminster Governments, productivity in my county of Gwynedd has fallen by 10% while productivity in central London has risen by more than 5%. Unlike the Westminster Government, the EU recognises wealth inequality as a problem to be addressed, and attempts have been made to make up for Westminster’s neglect and to strengthen Wales’s economy by redistributing wealth. I know we discussed the effects of European structural funds. Could we take a step back and consider where Wales would be if we had not received those funds? They were there for the noble principle of addressing inequality and poverty.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is somewhat unreasonable in her comments. The European structural funds were provided to ensure that GDP levels in Wales were comparable with the average of the European Union. That measure failed significantly in the Welsh context, and I want to stress that that was not the fault of the European Union. It failed as a result of the way in which the projects were designed in a Welsh context. That has been the problem.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Again, what would the position of Wales have been if we had not received those funds? We may not agree on the way they were used, but I am truly concerned that we are moving to a future in which there is no principle on addressing and raising those funds.

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am coming to a close.

At a time when we are being pulled out of the European Union, the Westminster Government must stick to their promises at the time of the referendum and ensure that Wales will continue to receive every single penny that it received thanks to the EU’s redistributive wealth policies. I beg to ask the Minister to say what Wales’s fair share will be.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Moon, and to follow the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). I want to ensure that the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) is not only congratulated on securing the debate but also has a few minutes to respond at the end of the debate, so my contribution will be somewhat curtailed.

It has been an interesting debate, and I argue that it has been at its best, and the speeches have been at their best, when they have not been partisan. I know I am guilty of being one of the most partisan Members in this place when I want to be, but I will try to respond in a manner similar to most of the speeches we have heard, rather than those with a “Money, money, money” theme, which seemed to be the message from some hon. Members. However, on the whole, the debate has been thoughtful, useful and constructive. I particularly thank the hon. Member for Ogmore, as I have said, for securing the debate and for the majority of his speech, which looked at the core issues at stake. On the whole, it was a constructive speech, although it occasionally fell into supporting the Welsh Government come what may.

The hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) made an impassioned speech on the importance of people being aware of whether they can or cannot take their opportunities for further education. While I would describe the universities in Wales as the elite universities—not least Aberystwyth University, which I attended—the hon. Gentleman made an important point about aspiration. When looking at some of those giants of recent Welsh history, who came from valley communities, slate quarrying villages and farming stock, and who actually aspired to education, we have to ask why we have lost that in the Welsh context. The hon. Gentleman’s comments are well worth further consideration by those who actually take an interest in the goings-on of this place.

I also welcome the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) to the debate. I congratulate him on his work as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on social mobility, and I appreciate his interest in the cross-border work of the Wales Office. He made some really important points about the London-centric nature of the UK economy, which I subscribe to. I believe that one problem we have, not only in the Welsh context but throughout the UK, is that we have a London-centric view of the world, which needs to be challenged. The hon. Gentleman is clearly doing excellent work as part of the all-party parliamentary group system here in Westminster. I would argue that most of my constructive contributions in this place between 2010 and 2015 were made through all-party parliamentary groups, so I encourage the hon. Gentleman to carry on with his work and to keep on being involved with us in north Wales, in relation to the potential of the north Wales growth deal.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), who highlighted that many of the issues we have talked about, including educational attainment and training and so on, are devolved to the Welsh Government. That point was worth making. However, at the same time, she was quite happy to challenge me, as the Wales Office Minister representing the UK Government.

At this point, I think I need to once again clarify my point about EU structural funds. I congratulate the hon. Members for Vale of Clwyd and for Caerphilly (Wayne David), and all politicians who ensured that Wales received EU structural funds at the highest level, on their involvement at the time. I have said that on the record time and again. The point I have also made, which is still worth reiterating, is that the reason Wales achieved the highest level of EU funding intervention was to ensure that our GDP was comparable to the EU average.

That was not achieved, so before we ask for more money, we need to ask ourselves why that investment did not achieve the desired goals. It is simply not good enough for the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd to claim that the situation would have been even worse without that intervention; we need to ensure that in the future, if we have intervention through a UK Government shared prosperity fund, that intervention improves the GDP of Wales and the life chances of all people in Wales. We should be willing to learn lessons from the fact that the whole purpose of EU structural funds in Wales did not deliver the growth we were hoping for.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

In the spirit of planning ahead, much mention has been made of apprenticeships today. I represent an extremely rural area, where we have a shortage of skills when we are looking at developing, say, the Wylfa site. We need workplaces in which people can undertake apprenticeships. We do not have those workplaces in north-west Wales in sufficient numbers. Will the Minister commit to looking at creative ways of finding workplaces that will enable young men and women to be trained for engineering and construction in the future?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady makes a point that I fully subscribe to. The Wales Office stands ready to support any initiative in a Welsh context that extends the number of apprenticeship places available. We are certainly of the view that the financial contribution made by the UK Government to the Welsh Government through the apprenticeship levy has been significant, and that money should be spent.

The opportunities that exist in north-west Wales include the development of a new nuclear power station in Wylfa and the work going on in Airbus, with the apprenticeship schemes available at RAF Valley. Those schemes are strong. They are making a difference and showing young people that there is an alternative to going to university. I have seen the success stories in north Wales of Coleg Cambria and Grŵp Llandrillo Menai replicated in south Wales with Coleg Merthyr and other colleges, as a result of my role as a Minister in the Wales Office.

I highlighted, for example, how impressed I was with the enthusiasm and commitment of apprentices when I visited the General Dynamics site in Merthyr Tydfil. That is the way to show young people that educational achievement does not necessarily mean aspiring to Oxbridge. There is no reason why anybody in Wales should not aspire to improve themselves from an educational perspective, but that improvement can happen in their local communities. Opportunities should be enhanced for people to get qualifications in the workplace, ensuring that they are earning while learning.

In Wales, we have some of the better further education institutions. They are doing great work, but they should be fully supported by the Welsh Government in delivering more for the people of Wales. I genuinely thought that the comments from the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) were inspiring. Colleagues have said clearly that we need to sell the concept of going further in education. We need to sell the ability of young people to see themselves attending some of our finest institutions.

We need to be proud of the fact that we have a significant entrepreneurial spirit in Wales. How often is that sold in local schools? The biggest success in my constituency since I was elected has been Sean Taylor, a veteran who left the Army and decided to set up a high ropes training and outdoor pursuits centre. He subsequently created the Zip World business, which now employs 240 people in my constituency and the constituency of the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, 75% of whom are local Welsh speakers. Those people have had an opportunity to work, develop skills and gain qualifications while seeing that setting up a business in their community can make a real difference. I am proud to say that Sean Taylor is the type of entrepreneur who is willing to go out and explain to young people, “You can aspire to university and to a medical or legal profession, but you can also make a big difference in your community.”

I am proud to represent a constituency with one of the highest levels of self-employment. It has been said that in rural Wales, self-employment is often a case of doing anything to earn a living because of people’s pride in themselves and their community, and because no other opportunities are available. We need to make setting up a business and being entrepreneurial a key opportunity for young people to move forward in their communities. Nothing gives me greater pride than when, in my role as a Minister in the Wales Office, I meet young people who have set up businesses in my constituency and across the length and breadth of Wales.

While I thought the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) was somewhat partisan in her comments, I am happy to agree that we need to deal with the lack of social mobility. I want to allow the hon. Member for Ogmore a few minutes to respond, but before I finish my comments, I need to touch on some of the issues raised in the debate. Clearly social mobility is important for this Government. It was said in some of the most thoughtful comments by Opposition Members that nobody in the Chamber can be proud of our record on that issue. If, as the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd said, the highest point of social mobility in our history was achieved in 1958, that is a stain on all of us. If, 10 years before I was born, we reached the high point of social mobility in our communities, we genuinely need to ask ourselves what went wrong. No amount of finger pointing between Westminster, the UK Government and the Welsh Government will change anything unless we are willing to acknowledge where we have a weakness.

This debate is entitled “Social mobility in Wales”. We have agreed that education is crucial, and we need to acknowledge that in Wales we are not performing as we should. I am not going to say anything more than that, but we all acknowledge that we are not performing in Wales to the standard of the UK as a whole or the rest of our competitors in the European Union. We need to be very clear about that. When Germany found itself failing under the PISA regime, it acted, and in 10 years it managed to get itself from a very low level to once again leading. The report on PISA in Germany sent shockwaves through the German political system, and the question I ask is: why are those shockwaves not resonating through the corridors of the Welsh Government in Cardiff? We need to do a lot of work on education. It is not perfect in England, but it is certainly not as good as it should be in Wales, and Members should acknowledge that.

Members have highlighted the need to ensure that the concept of lifelong learning is understood. That is why investment in our further education colleges is crucial. The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston made the crucial point that education, and certainly education in the workplace, does not end at the age of 18 or 21. It is increasingly the case that 35 to 50-year-olds are looking to retrain. As we are all living longer and expected to work longer, we have to acknowledge that we need to adapt to the workplace. One of the key things I have seen at further education colleges that I have visited in Wales is their commitment to take on apprentices regardless of their age.

Another issue that we need to be aware of is the importance of making work pay. We have seen in Wales since 2010 a significant reduction in the number of children in workless households. That is very important. The Office for National Statistics has highlighted that families in which members are in work are, on the whole, in a position to make more of their lives and have better outcomes than those where that is not the case. Interestingly, the ONS statistics also highlight that, regardless of a household’s income level, where there is someone in employment, outcomes are better. I often hear complaints from the Labour party about the type of jobs being created, but we should always take pride in any jobs that are being created and in allowing people to take care of their own future.

One thing that has come out of the debate is that poverty can be measured in financial terms. I acknowledge that. The hon. Members for Torfaen and for Islwyn and others highlighted the importance of dealing with poverty of ambition. We need to be champions within our communities, highlighting to young people that there are financial difficulties in terms of ensuring equality of opportunity, but also challenging the poverty of ambition that blights too many of our communities in Wales and across the United Kingdom.

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

As we leave the European Union, we are determined to deliver as much certainty and continuity as we can. The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill focuses on delivering that, and I am sure that that is really what the Welsh Government want. After all, we should be focusing on the outcomes. This is about providing a framework in which businesses and communities can prosper. This is where politics needs to fit business and community need, rather than that of politicians.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

5. What assessment he has made of the effect on Wales of the outcome of exit negotiations between the UK and the EU.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

14. What assessment he has made of the effect on Wales of the outcome of exit negotiations between the UK and the EU.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I have always said that we will negotiate for every nation and region of the United Kingdom, and our goal is to secure a deal that works for all parts of the country.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Following weeks of chaos, the Government have realised that their original Brexit promises were the stuff of fantasy. They conceded on continuous regulatory alignment with Europe but, hand in hand with Labour, the Westminster Tory Government remain ideologically committed to severing Wales’s membership of the single market and the customs union. Will the Secretary of State tell us how many Welsh jobs his Government are prepared to sacrifice to placate Brexiteers on both sides of the Chamber?

[Alun Cairns]

I am sorry to hear the tone of the hon. Lady’s question. It is almost as though she is disappointed with the Prime Minister’s great success last week in getting an agreement and with the prospect of moving on to phase 2 of the negotiations. I will happily talk about investment and employment opportunities. We are obviously extremely pleased with record low levels of unemployment over recent months. Even since the referendum, we have seen some of the greatest inward investment projects coming into the UK and Wales, and I hope that the hon. Lady will welcome that and support the process.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I spent some time this morning with the Brexit Secretary’s sectoral analyses. They provide an interesting snapshot, but they do not provide any views about the future. I want to take the Secretary of State back to June 2016, when he said that 100,000 jobs in Wales are

“directly linked to our place in Europe.”

In fact, he also said:

“The economic argument trumps everything else, at the end of the day this is down to the economy, jobs, jobs, jobs.”

Will he indicate whether he stands by his remarks of 18 months ago? Will he tell the House how many jobs in Wales he is prepared to sacrifice and in which sectors?

[Alun Cairns]

It would be interesting to know whether the hon. Lady wants to respect the outcome of the referendum, in which the majority of Wales voted to leave the European Union. Leaving the EU provides new opportunities. We want frictionless trading arrangements and to exploit new markets around the world. Exports to markets outside the European Union are growing much faster than exports to the European Union, and the figure for Wales is above the UK average. I hope that the hon. Lady recognises that businesses are already seeing the opportunities.