Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 22nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment 1, page 1, line 1, leave out Clause 1.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 17, page 1, line 6 , leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 4, page 1, line 6, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 18, page 1, line 8, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 5, page 1, line 8, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 19, page 1, line 14, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 6, page 1, line 15, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 20, page 1, line 17, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 7, page 1, line 17, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 21, page 1, line 18, leave out ‘3rd April 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 8, page 1, line 18, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 22, page 1, line 21, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 9, page 1, line 22, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 23, page 2, line 2, leave out ‘3rd April 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 10, page 2, line 2, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 24, page 2, line 4, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 11, page 2, line 4, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 25, page 2, line 5, leave out ‘3rd April 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 12, page 2, line 5, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 26, page 2, line 8, at end insert—

‘(5) Regulations made under this section may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.’.

Amendment 51, page 2, line 8, at end insert—

‘( ) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must lay a report before Parliament no later than 31 December 2011 on the impact of section 1 on looked-after children in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.’.

Amendment 52, page 2, line 8, at end insert—

‘( ) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must lay a report before Parliament no later than 31 December 2011 on the uptake of tax free savings accounts by looked-after children in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland following the implementation of section 1.’.

Amendment 36, in title,  line 1, leave out

‘To make provision about eligibility for a child trust fund;’.

[Mr Hanson]

The Bill was considered in Committee but it was not amended, despite the fact that we had some 19 Divisions, which showed the strength of feeling among Labour Members. I am pleased to see so many of my hon. Friends who served in Committee in their places today.

The Labour Opposition’s objection to clause 1 was well rehearsed on Second Reading and in Committee, but I regret to tell the House that it will be rehearsed again as we continue to explain our objection to the clause. As ever, I wish to help the Minister and be pragmatic by giving him the opportunity to reflect on the mistake he is making in proposing clause 1 and on the issues we raised in Committee, which my right hon. and hon. Friends want to debate again.

My main concern is to delete clause 1, which amendment 1 is designed to achieve, unless we can get the Minister to reconsider some of the amendments we tabled in Committee, which are before us today. I refer particularly to amendment 17, which would delay the abolition of the child trust fund until such time as the proposed child ISA—individual savings account—came into play. We had that debate in Committee and I will refer to it again later.

Amendment 4 would allow the abolition of the child trust fund to be delayed until 2016. Again, I want to help the Minister and give him an opportunity to fulfil his manifesto commitment to help the poorest third of children in society. At the general election in May, he said that he would not wish to see them disadvantaged by the abolition of the child trust fund.

I also support amendments 51 and 52, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), which raise issues that my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) aired in Westminster Hall relating to looked-after children. It is important to return to those issues again today.

Amendment 1 would delete clause 1. I want the Minister and the House to know that, however pragmatic our approach to the abolition of the child trust fund, our fundamental objective is to ensure that the fund remains for all children, as proposed by the previous Labour Government.

I say that for three reasons. First, we believe that the child trust fund promotes saving, encourages financial education and ensures that all young people have a financial asset at the age of 18, which is particularly important for those who come from poorer families. The child trust fund scheme, introduced by the Labour Government, was having a positive effect between April 2008 and April 2009: a massive 823,504 vouchers were issued—about 70,000 a month; more than 74% of the accounts were opened by parents; and about £2 billion is held in funds. By the end of this year, it is likely that more than 6 million child trust funds would have been opened. That is a success by any stretch of the imagination—a success now being torn up by the coalition Government. Those child trust funds would have helped to support our children when they reached the age of 18. That would have been a progressive measure, which is why Labour Members oppose clause 1.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Hemming]

The good news is that we are scrapping up-front tuition fees not just for full-time students but for part-time students, but I think we are straying—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We are going off the Bill.

[John Hemming]

The point is that spending £7 million to give £2 million is an appalling waste of money. Anyone who votes for anything like that will have a real stain on their financial track record, because people will observe the Opposition saying, “This is so important that we have do things in this inefficient way.” It is a ludicrous proposal.

--- Later in debate ---

19:59

Division 123

Ayes: 197

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Labour: 187
Scottish National Party: 4
Plaid Cymru: 3
Green Party: 1
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 1
Democratic Unionist Party: 1

Noes: 300

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Conservative: 251
Liberal Democrat: 48

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I call Mr David Hanson to move the next amendment.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Sorry. I call Kerry McCarthy.

Clause 3

Removal of entitlement to health in pregnancy grant

[Kerry McCarthy]

I beg to move amendment 3, page 2, line 22 leave out Clause 3.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 42, page 2, leave out lines 26 and 27 and insert—

‘(2) The Treasury will conduct a review of the health in pregnancy grant, to be concluded by 1 January 2012, which will consider, inter alia, the case for—

(a) the health in pregnancy grant to be retained in its current form;

(b) the health in pregnancy grant to be means-tested or in other ways targeted towards those most in need; and

(c) the health in pregnancy grant to be replaced by a system of vouchers.”’.

Amendment 44, page 2, line 27, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 43, page 2, leave out lines 31 and 32 and insert—

‘(2) The Treasury will conduct a review of the health in pregnancy grant, to be concluded by 1 January 2012, which will consider, inter alia, the case for—

(a) the health in pregnancy grant to be retained in its current form;

(b) the health in pregnancy grant to be means-tested or in other ways targeted towards those most in need; and

(c) the health in pregnancy grant to be replaced by a system of vouchers.”’.

Amendment 45, page 2, line 32, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 34, page 3, line 1, Clause 4, leave out ‘Sections’ and insert ‘Section’.

Amendment 30, page 3, line 1, leave out from ‘1992)’ to ‘extend’ in line 2.

Amendment 35, page 3, line 4, leave out ‘Sections’ and insert ‘Section’.

Amendment 33, page 3, line 5, leave out from ‘1992)’ to ‘extend’ in line 6.

Amendment 38, in title,  line 2, leave out from ‘2009;’ to ‘and’ in line 3.

[Kerry McCarthy]

I am sorry for not notifying you in advance, Mr Deputy Speaker, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and I would be job sharing on Report.

We had a reasonably comprehensive debate in Committee on clause 3, which deals with the abolition of the health in pregnancy grant, although not as comprehensive as we would have liked. The Minister did not provide as much explanation as we would have liked on why he and his Government colleagues felt compelled to rush into axing the grant without sufficient evidence that it is not achieving the purposes for which it was intended. Amendment 3 would therefore delete clause 3, the grant would continue and we would have more time to assess whether it improves maternal health and nutrition, and the health of the unborn child and the child once it is born, and whether it achieves the important aim of getting expectant women to access professional advice during pregnancy.

I do not have time to rehearse in full the arguments in favour of such intervention during pregnancy. In Committee, we heard compelling evidence from witnesses of the health benefits for mother and child of tackling poor nutrition. We heard statistics about how many parents worry about not having enough money to feed their families and how many people on low incomes do not have enough money to provide healthy nutritious food. That can be seen in research carried out by organisations such as the Joseph Rowntree Foundation on what sort of household income would be sufficient to provide a healthy diet. Witnesses also told us of the importance of the grant as a nudge towards changing behaviour—the Prime Minister has been a keen advocate of such nudges in the past. By giving the grant and, in particular, by making the payment conditional on accessing advice on nutrition during pregnancy, we have encouraged expectant mothers who perhaps were not completely au fait with nutritional issues to start thinking about them, to access advice on health during pregnancy and to start on the road towards changing their patterns of behaviour. The scheme was in place for only a couple of years, so there was nowhere near enough time to assess its impact, but we heard evidence that it could help break generational cycles of poor nutrition, poor health, birth defects or even mortality during childbirth.

--- Later in debate ---

That leads me to the last of the amendments tabled by those of us on the Opposition Front Bench. Amendment 49 calls again for a one-year moratorium during which the Government will consider how we can ensure that more women have access—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. May I suggest that we stick to the amendments that are selected for discussion now? Amendment 49 is not on the selection list and nor are some of the other amendments. If we could stick to the list, I would be very grateful.

[Kerry McCarthy]

Sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker. I assumed that they had all been grouped together.

Let me make a general point that links back to amendment 3 and the need to retain the grant. This is not just a matter of putting the £190 into people’s pockets so that they can spend it either on improving their diet during pregnancy or on items that they might need when the child is born. We need to bring people in so that they access professional health advice at the 25th week of pregnancy or, as we have debated, earlier in pregnancy. That is really important and there is nothing to replace it. The Government seem to have no suggestion on how to bring people in through the door and ensure that we increase the number of women who access such advice if the health in pregnancy grant is not used as a trigger mechanism. If the Government will not accept amendment 3 or any of the other amendments that call for more time and a review of how the grant works, will the Minister at least tell us how we can ensure that more women access professional advice on their health and the health of their unborn child during pregnancy? The grant was designed to tackle a serious issue and it is being abolished in its early stages. It is a shame to abandon the project at this stage.