Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Second sitting)

Lincoln Jopp Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)]

Q Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for your time this afternoon. All three of you will have seen much during your working lives and in the roles you have now, and had extensive conversations with service personnel. We are aware that there is an attrition rate from the service, low morale, dissatisfaction with the role and various issues to do with that. When we look at different surveys, key themes come out a number of times to do with accommodation, career prospects and family life.

The provision in clause 3 provides that service complaints can be made from people who are not necessarily service personnel, which is different from what happens with the ombudsman now. First, what are your thoughts on that? Secondly, one of the themes that has come through is the need for trust and transparency about the impact from anything that the new role does. How could that change enhance that?

Mandy Harding: I can take the first part of the question. I referred to the “Living in our Shoes” report by Professor Jan Walker. That report was very significant because it identified that when one person serves, the whole family serves. Having access for families is a welcome addition and my colleagues at the Naval Families Federation will be able to speak more effectively on that. It is not my area of expertise, because I am a grant maker, but I am sure that they would have more to say.

Air Commodore Simon Harper: I agree completely. We have a phrase in the Air Force: “Support the family”. You retain the service person by supporting the family. In respect to the question you ask, I would be supportive of the service family having that access. As a charity, it is important that we recognise the offer to the serving person. That offer is effectively a psychological contract that covers many different aspects, whether it be pay, pensions, housing, accommodation, food, or ability to get access to medical and dental care— and, indeed, the charities, too, play a role in that offer. It affects the serving families in different points at different times. It is very difficult to say there is a single issue or a few issues that are causing the level of dissatisfaction reported through the armed forces continuous attitude surveys and the like and through the families continuous attitude survey.

We are a families federation, and provide more detail on certain families. It is a multi-faceted issue, though, and difficult to pinpoint one particular place. It is important to understand that that offer is multifaceted and is a psychological contract at its very heart. It could take a number of things, which begin over time, to wear away the good will of that family, which then leads to dissatisfaction and, ultimately, people leaving the services.

Col. Darren Doherty: I do not think I can add much more to that, or comment on access to the service complaints system from beyond the serving person. I can speak about the wider family context and put it against what we provide.

As the Army Benevolent Fund, we provide a lifetime of support to serving and former soldiers and their immediate families, including the bereaved, when they are in need. That has built up since the Army Benevolent Fund was formed, 80 years ago. Even then, we understood the importance of the family unit and the importance of supporting the continuum of service, not just of the service person but of the whole family as they continue through the journey: joining, leaving and then serving, whether as a reservist, or a regular reservist, as in my case, and as a veteran, with the family that serves alongside them. That person, family or service person might be bereaved as well. It is about that total inclusivity.

[Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)]

Q You will have seen the witness list for today, and you will notice that the only people we do not get to consult are the military chain of command because their views are, for constitutional reasons, vested in the Minister. I will ask the air commodore and the colonel to rewind a bit to when they were serving in the military as part of the chain of command on frontline operations; I know you both served time in the training base. Do you see the potential for the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, as drafted, to erode the authority of the military chain of command?

Air Commodore Simon Harper: I am happy to take the question. Yes, I suppose there is that potential. The chain of command still has a vital role. Where I could see the benefit is that, having gone through and made my point about the offer being multifaceted, the response for the serving person and their family is multifaceted as well. The Armed Forces Commissioner can play a key role in that.

There will be times, I suspect, when the legislation will come into conflict—perhaps that is the wrong term—with the chain of command. I still think the chain of command must be the overarching way in which military effect and operational output is delivered. That is the success of how it is done. But I think that, appropriately placed, the Armed Forces Commissioner can support, augment and, in co-operation with the chain of command, improve the lives of the serving person and the family. There is a risk, of course, but I think it can work.

Col. Darren Doherty: I agree with all that. There is potential for the Bill to undermine the chain of command and potential for it to work against the chain of command; much depends on the selection of the right individual to do the role and on the role being developed and there being a framework for operating how the office goes about its business beyond what is laid out in the Bill. This is about building trust and confidence with those it supports, including individuals who might bring things to the attention of the commissioner, and also about the confidence of the wider organisation as well.

To answer your question, there is that potential, but everything that I have read in the Bill, heard in the debates and read in Hansard is in people’s minds. I listened to some of the earlier speakers today comparing it the outwith-the-chain-of-command ways that we have with dealing with issues now. You will well remember dealing with the padre and medical officers as something outside the chain of command.

All those things do not happen overnight. Those need to be built up as individual relationships in terms of trust within organisations. This is something new—a step beyond what the ombudsman provides. It will take time and careful implementation, from a practical perspective, for it to work. But I do see that there is huge benefit in having such an office there for the individual and the organisation and in support of the chain of command as well. They can potentially all work together.

[Terry Jermy (South West Norfolk) (Lab)]

Q My question follows nicely on from that. Colonel Doherty, I was reading your CV in the paperwork and I was struck by the range of experience and the number of different locations that you have served in. I join colleagues in thanking you for that service; I was pleased to read that report. Given your experience of active service, and now your new role—your experience on both sides—do you feel that the commissioner would be seen as sufficiently strong and independent to encourage people to come forward?

Col. Darren Doherty: The legislation is certainly strong enough to put them in that position. Again, it goes back to the type of individual selected for the role and the trust and the confidence that they build with the community. I can speak only on behalf of the Army.

It will take a period of time to educate people on what the role is. That is why it is absolutely critical that the Bill is fit for purpose and, more importantly, that the policy and framework that sit beyond it, in terms of implementation, are right as well, and that we are absolutely clear where the boundaries and responsibilities for the office lie, and also the gearing between it and other offices.

That goes back to one of the issues raised a few times in the debate, which is the scope of the role—looking predominantly at the community subject to service law and how that relates to the wider military community, going back to that continuum of service. How that all interlocks with what is currently provided by the Minister for Veterans and People and veterans commissioners, where they exist, is all very important in the messaging and communicating with the community.

It is a wide remit. It is summed up in a few small sentences, but dealing with welfare issues could be incredibly complex and wide-ranging. There are very few welfare issues that do not straddle the serving family and go into the veteran space in a sort of time continuum. Those are all important parts of the messaging of what the role is going to be about.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michelle Scrogham]

Q The commissioner can access unannounced any of the sites within the UK, but the Secretary of State has the power to restrict access. How will that work in practice?

Luke Pollard: When the commissioner’s office is stood up, there will be a ways of working agreement between the commissioner and the single services about how things work. I am not expecting the Armed Forces Commissioner to use their unannounced powers frequently. If you look at the German model, the armed forces commissioner in Germany spends about a third of her year undertaking visits, of which nearly all are planned. The ability to make an unannounced visit in the commissioner’s toolbox makes those powers even more prominent, because if an issue is reaching a certain threshold, they can decide to make an unannounced visit.

The powers on national security that we have included in the Bill come from the importance of making sure that in the proper exercising of their duties, the commissioner is focusing on general service welfare matters. What we do not want to see the commissioner doing, as you heard when the current SCOAF presented earlier, is looking at the secret squirrel elements. I do not want them looking into the intelligence services or secret squirrel locations, such as the operational design of missions. That all sits outside their remit; their remit is solely focused on general service welfare. The ability to define that via secondary legislation is a prudent and proportionate power that we have in the Bill. I suspect what will actually happen in most cases is, once the secondary legislation that details that has been published, a ways of working approach will be established.

I cannot really imagine any Armed Forces Commissioner having a remit or operations that step outside that clearly defined general service welfare lane, but if there are concerns, there is also a power in the Bill for the Secretary of State to exercise that caution on visits, especially if there is a national security consideration. We would not expect that, given the welfare focus, but it is a proportionate safeguarding power, just in case.

[Lincoln Jopp]

Q I am obliged to Maria Lyle for highlighting the issue about whether the commissioner will be a call centre or will produce big, thematic reports. The explanatory note to the Bill says:

“This Bill will establish an independent Commissioner to serve as a direct point of contact for Armed Forces personnel and their families.”

However, I read the Bill and it does not do that. It takes on the ombudsman’s powers—that is chunk one—but only for service complaints. If someone has a housing problem, it is rarely going to be subject to a service complaint; it will go up the housing route. The second chunk is about more general thematic investigations. The Bill does those two things, but I do not think it provides a place for people to go day to day when they have a problem, because that gets into the jurisdictions of local authorities and local education authorities—there is a series of routes. If you are telling us that we are going to change the service complaints procedure so that—[Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Mr Jopp, you were in the middle of a question.

[Lincoln Jopp]

Q I was—well, I promise there was a question at the end of it. The point I was making was that the Bill and the explanatory note do not match, in as much as the explanatory note suggests three functions: first, taking on the existing ombudsman role; secondly, to act as a point of contact for all armed forces families; and, thirdly, the wider thematic piece. When I look at the Bill as drafted, however, I see two of those, namely the ombudsman duties and the thematic one. While loosely drawn, that will leave a lot to subsequent interpretation in order not to mismanage expectations. Having listened to the evidence today, do you agree?

Luke Pollard: Thank you. I do not think that it is necessary to legislate for the ability of the commissioner to have an email address, a website or a postal address. We gave a commitment on Second Reading that the commissioner should be accessible by a range of means. It is up to the commissioner to determine what that range of means is and to flex their resourcing to deliver that. The intent behind the establishment of the three functions as you described them, however, will be to provide a way for people who are serving to contact the commissioner. It might be for the commissioner to decide that, with thematic investigations, they operate a consultation function or a direct stakeholder function, in addition to some of the means of direct contact, but that is not necessary to have in primary legislation, which is the reason why it is not in primary legislation, but in the explanatory note, to explain the different roles that the commissioner will have.

[Lincoln Jopp]

Q I have another question. Two of the three witnesses identified the risk of the legislation eroding the authority of the military chain of command, but one said that he had had a good session with you and come away convinced that it would not do so. Will you enlighten us as to how you managed to convince the general, while the more junior officers were more sceptical?

Luke Pollard: The important thing is to look at the outcome and the focus. The commissioner’s job is not to countermand orders or instructions given by the chain of command. That is not in their remit and they would not be able to undertake that activity. Where they will be support for the chain of command is in delivering a better output for their people.

In recent years, certainly—the situation that the new Government have inherited—we have had morale falling in all our services every year for the past 10 years. For every 100 people who join the armed forces, at the moment 130 leave, and that is not good enough. When we talk about renewing the contract between the nation and those who serve and about the Armed Forces Commissioner being the first legislative pillar to do that—the largest pay rises for 20 years and increasing recruits’ pay by 35% are part of that, fellow travellers on the journey—we are trying to support people to join the armed forces and to stay in them longer.

We are aware that for some of the chain of command, the issues that their people are raising with them are not within their remit. For example, over many years and certainly in the past decade or so, we have contractualised housing out of the responsibility of a base commander. Therefore, the ability of commanding officers to respond to some of the welfare needs of their people has been diminished by changes in contractualisation and operating procedures. We hope to make inroads into looking at what we can do to support that by trusting our people more. As part of that, we want to have a commissioner who can shine a spotlight on the thematic issues—in effect, issues that affect our people and their families.

I do not see that as in any way challenging the chain of command. I see it as an ability for the chain of command to deliver their functions in a more efficient manner by having a greater focus on the welfare needs of their people. That is a complementary function to the many welfare needs already undertaken by the chain of command, but especially in those areas where they otherwise might not have any levers. That is why we suggest that the commissioner report to Parliament—via a necessary sifting of national security scrubbing of reports by the MOD—so we can shine a spotlight on that.

In opposition and in government, I have spoken to many people who are in the chain of command, and they have an absolute focus on improving the welfare of their people, but they do not always have the ability to improve all aspects of it. We therefore hope that the commissioner will assist. That is not the only area, but it is an important area—to ensure that parliamentarians of all parties may scrutinise where there is a deficiency in the welfare provision for our people and their families. That is what we hope to do with the commissioner.

[Lincoln Jopp]

We might return to that on Thursday, but thank you.

[Graeme Downie]

Q Minister, you mentioned ensuring that issues are handled and dealt with, and you said that previously issues had fallen away and not been taken up by the MOD. Would that not make it more sensible to have a duty on the face of the Bill for the MOD to respond to commissioner reports to ensure that action can be taken? Could you comment a little on that?

Luke Pollard: It is quite normal in legislation of this type for there not to be provision in primary legislation. It is certainly the intent of the Secretary of State and me to ensure that provision is given to that coming back, but I am aware of an amendment tabled by the Liberal Democrats in a similar way. I am happy taking that issue and having a discussion about what we can do to ensure that sufficient attention is given to any recommendations.

When we were drafting the legislation, we tried to ensure that where a Secretary of State who has not been involved with the origin of the Armed Forces Commissioner may be in post, they cannot put in place any obstacles to the proper scrutiny of the welfare needs of armed forces personnel and their people. The expectation is that the Ministry of Defence would respond to those recommendations; what we would need to establish informally, which does not require primary legislation, are the methods for tracking the recommendations.

Certainly, as a new Government, we are very aware that many of the recommendations made by the Defence Committee, for instance, to Government over the past decade sometimes have not even been responded to or had information provided back. As part of renewing the relationship between Parliament and the Ministry of Defence, we believe that enhancing parliamentary scrutiny of what the Ministry of Defence does will produce better outcomes both strategically and for our people, so that we will be able to respond to those recommendations from the Armed Forces Commissioner, HCDC and other bodies that report on the welfare needs of our people.