The Growth Plan

Debate between Kwasi Kwarteng and Toby Perkins

Friday 23rd September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

We do care for the most vulnerable in our society. That is a moral duty of Government and we have announced measures in the energy space that are helping a whole range of people and that are fundamental to the cost of living and tackling bills this winter.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

In the time that the Chancellor has been on his feet, the pound has reached its lowest rate against the dollar. The FTSE 100 index is down by 1.7% simply today. When my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) raised this issue with him, he said, “Oh, the markets will react,” as they will. But if the point of his plan for growth is to increase confidence and even the City believes that stuffing the pockets of the very wealthiest, and expecting bankers’ bonuses and oil company profits to lead the rest of us to prosperity, is a bad idea, who is actually on his side?

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

The growth plan is about growing the economy, and we are not going to grow the economy by increasing taxes indefinitely.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Kwasi Kwarteng and Toby Perkins

Thursday 4th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

Given what we have seen in the past few weeks, I would never say “inconceivable”; anything can happen, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. I am confident that we will get a deal through. I am hopeful of that, because that is the only way that we will get a negotiated and orderly exit from the EU.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

14. What assessment he has made of the effect on UK manufacturing of the UK leaving the EU without mutual recognition of regulatory standards in that sector.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Kwasi Kwarteng)]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we have had extensive meetings across the country, and I have seen many companies. We continue to recognise the importance of UK manufacturing and of maintaining a close trading relationship with the EU. As the political declaration sets out, we have already agreed to establish a free trade area for goods. We recognise that manufacturing is an essential part of the economy.

[Toby Perkins]

That was not really much to do with my question, which was about regulatory standards. Weightron Bilanciai, a Chesterfield-based industrial weighing machine manufacturer, had to spend around £50,000 to have all its products re-certified in the Netherlands, because they will no longer be certified and recognised for sale in the EU after we leave. Are the costs paid by UK manufacturing and the impact on British businesses the most serious example of the Government’s failure to come up with a trade deal?

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I will tell the hon. Gentleman about failure. What is actually crippling and increasing uncertainty for his manufacturing sector is his repeated rejection of the deal, which would actually have an implementation period and would give certainty and direction to the very companies he seeks to represent in the House.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between Kwasi Kwarteng and Toby Perkins

Monday 21st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Andrew George]

But when does the crisis end? The figures produced by the Office for Budget Responsibility estimate that in three years’ time, wages will exceed CPI. One has to examine the matter over a much longer period. The Conservatives paid for some posters a couple of weeks ago to make the point that it was unacceptable for benefits to rise faster than wages, and the amendment would deal with that issue.

I said earlier that one big weakness of the Government’s proposal, and the reason why I opposed it, was the inflexibility of the 1% uprating. It takes no account of what may happen to food prices, for example, by 2015-16. It is all very well having a Bill that takes a clairvoyant view that a 1% increase will not press large numbers of working families, as well as out-of-work families, into severe and extreme hardship. However, we have experienced this year in the UK the impact of significant volatility in our climate. There has been significant climate change, which is having an impact on the food baskets of the world, including those in many developing countries and here. We therefore need to ask ourselves whether we can confidently say that there will not be food price spikes such as we saw only a few years ago. I suggest that we may see such spikes again. There is also tremendous concern about the potential volatility of energy prices. The 1% uprating figure is inflexible and somewhat arbitrary, and we cannot say with confidence that we will not need to introduce further primary legislation to revise that figure in 2016.

We must also consider the impact of the 1% uprating on housing. In their emergency Budget, the Government proposed to cut housing benefit from the 50th percentile of rents to the 30th percentile. Whether or not we like the fact that only 30% of the private rental market might be available to people in receipt of housing benefit, rather than half of it, it is essential that the rate is linked to the variation in private sector rents. The 1% uprating will break the link with what is available in the market and instead peg housing benefit back. In my area, and I know in many others, the Government’s attempt to peg it back by cutting the rate to the 30th per- centile of rents has failed to constrain private sector rents, so it has not had the desired impact. Maybe it has in some areas, but certainly not in mine or many others.

The measures that the Government have brought forward in the Bill have been ill thought through, and I fear that we will have to reconsider the figure set out in it next year or the year after. On that basis, we will listen to what the Minister says in response to the debate before we have the opportunity to divide the Committee on the amendment.

[Toby Perkins]

It is a great pleasure to follow the thoughtful and useful contribution of the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) and the contributions of other hon. Members.

One thing that has come across in the speeches of Members on both sides of the Chamber is the economic illiteracy of the Government’s policy as part of a strategy for reducing the deficit. As other Members have said, one of the great things about welfare payments is that when people are living on the bread line, the money that they receive is spent in the local economy, often within their own community or on their own estate. They spend it at their local convenience store. They tend to spend it the minute they get it, rather than put it in trust funds, because they are attempting to sustain their life on the bread line.

When money is taken from the poorest in our society and at the same time given to the very wealthiest in our society, as was mentioned earlier, we are taking money away from people who will spend it in the real economy and giving it to people who are much more likely to take it out of the real economy and not spend it. It makes no economic sense, even on the basis that the Government are introducing this measure to reduce the deficit.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I still have not heard what exactly the Opposition would propose to reduce the deficit. Surely the hon. Gentleman will admit that there must be some reduction in public spending.

--- Later in debate ---

[Toby Perkins]

It is almost as though the last two minutes of my speech did not exist. I had answered the hon. Gentleman’s point before he made it and I have no idea why he felt the need to intervene when I had specifically dealt with that issue—[Interruption.] I have already dealt with that point. We just cannot compare what 1% means to someone on £70 a week with what it means to a doctor. People on poverty money and in severe poverty have not got lots of options as to what they can cut back. They cannot decide, “Well, I’m only going to have one holiday this year”, as those whose jobs are more lucrative might be able to do. Interruption.] I have reflected on that point and I think I have answered it at some length.

There is a particular irony in the Chancellor, who was a millionaire the day he was born, railing against the extravagance of those on £71 a week. The debate needs to be put in proper context.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Toby Perkins]

I will take further interventions, but I would like to crack on a bit now.

The 1% increase comes on top of a raft of difficult choices on benefits, including housing benefit cuts, tax credits cuts and council tax benefit cuts, at a time when there is increasing poverty, including severe poverty and child poverty. Specifically, there is an increase in poverty among those in work. That is the context in which this debate is held, and the reason why the Labour party has taken the stance it has. No one should be in any doubt that, in taking that stance, the Labour party recognises that there is tremendous contention about benefits, and that many feel just like the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) and his constituent. I recognise that many people in many communities feel that way, and therefore how difficult it was for my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) to take that principled stance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Toby Perkins]

One point I have laboured is that hon. Members cannot compare in percentage terms the difference the Bill will make for someone on £70 a week and someone on £35,000 a year. The hon. Gentleman seems to be attempting to make such a comparison, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) related previously—

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Toby Perkins]

I will answer the ill-advised point made by the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) before I take another intervention.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead has said, in cash terms—we should bear in mind that we buy food and clothing for our children with cash— people on benefits have had an increase of £12 a week; at the same time, working people have had an increase of £49 a week. It is impossible to make the comparison in simple percentage terms. That is one of the central points of my speech, but I have dwelt on it rather too much. I keep returning to it because hon. Members who intervene seem not to hear it.

The Economy

Debate between Kwasi Kwarteng and Toby Perkins

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

This is the third time that the hon. Gentleman has tried to intervene, and I am afraid that I must press on. I am willing to take interventions from other colleagues, but he has had his say and I would like to have mine.

We have had a difficult time over the last year, during which time my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne) has been Chancellor of the Exchequer. No one will dispute that: the situation has been tough. However, it would have been far worse if we had followed the policies of the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) and not tackled the deficit in the rather aggressive but timely way in which we decided to. Hon. Members referred earlier to Greece, which has indeed been a Greek tragedy. People are on the streets, the Government are practically insolvent and there is a real risk of some kind of political revolution—I am choosing my words carefully, but the situation is very unstable. The situation facing this country was, I confess, not as bad. However, if we had not been serious about tackling the deficit, there was every likelihood that the international markets would have forced our interest rates up, that our cost of borrowing would have increased and that markets would not have bought gilts in the way that, over the past year, they have. The consequent rise in interest rates would have affected every family in this country, who would have had to pay high interest rates simply because the Government did not have the courage or the conviction to deal with the deficit.

[Toby Perkins]

As for the comparison with Greece, does the hon. Gentleman recognise that if we had followed the advice of the Chancellor when the recession struck back in 2008, although events here might not have followed what happened in Greece, they would quite probably have followed what happened in Ireland, which saw huge public spending cuts? Ireland went into a cycle of more and more cuts, and more and more people being put out of work. The result of those cuts was not that Ireland’s deficit shrank, but that public services and poverty got worse.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point about Ireland, but let us look at what happened last year and the situation that we faced going into the general election in May. The shadow Chancellor quite rightly observed that the market price of gilts was rising and that interest rates on them were coming down in the period before the election. It is true that in the six weeks before the election, interest rates on gilts came down, but that was only because the market realised that there would be an end to the Labour Government. The market anticipated the result of the general election, after it became clear that, as a consequence of Labour’s total irresponsibility, the end of a Labour Government would mean a new Government who were serious about dealing with our financial position. It is true—I remember this—that the rates came down from mid-March, but that was only as a consequence of people in the markets literally rejoicing because Labour was going to leave. The shadow Chancellor was quite right to make that point; I just felt that we needed a bit more context.

--- Later in debate ---

[Toby Perkins]

It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman assumes what I am going to say already. I am only three seconds into my speech. I will come to that point.

The hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell said that he was proud of the Government’s record so far. I would not like to be here when he is ashamed. Government Members would like this debate to be about whether we need to reduce the deficit, but that is not what it is about at all. Everyone recognises that we need to do that, and that in 2008, prior to the onset of the biggest global economic crisis in history, we had a lower deficit as a ratio of GDP than in 1997 when we came into power. It was only the scale of the economic crisis that forced the Labour Government to spend money to stop the awful situation that ordinary people were finding themselves in, with jobs being lost and the danger of houses being repossessed. We are proud of the decisions that we made at the time, which were supported by the IMF. It said strongly that this country, under the Labour Government, showed leadership when the rest of the world did not know what to do in the face of a terrible global economic crisis.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

rose—

[Toby Perkins]

Because the hon. Gentleman was so generous to me, I will allow him to intervene.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I believe in debate—it is good that interventions are taken. If the problem was global, why was our deficit to GDP ratio four times higher than that of the Federal Republic of Germany?

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between Kwasi Kwarteng and Toby Perkins

Thursday 24th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

I was certainly bewildered by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change’s contribution in opening this debate, and by the idea that when the Liberal Democrats talked about the tax bombshell, what they meant was that VAT was regressive only if it was levied on food, a suggestion that nobody had made and which was never part of the debate. His speech was one of the most bizarre contributions that we have heard over the past three days. I look forward to watching it on iPlayer tonight and reliving the moment, because it is something that will live long in the memory.

I want to talk about the choice that the Labour party made. What we enjoyed under the previous Labour Government was 11 years of stable economic growth. That was the longest period of stable economic growth in this country’s history, yet unlike the Conservatives, we went into recession only when the entire world went into recession. The Conservatives did it differently: they could go into recession when the rest of Europe was in a strong position. It was only the global economic crisis that threw the economy off course under a Labour Government.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

Will the hon. Gentleman enlighten me on one thing? What does he think the former Prime Minister and then Chancellor meant when he suggested that there would be no more boom and bust?

[Toby Perkins]

What he was probably referring to was 11 years of stable economic growth. What he did not foresee was that we would be hit by the biggest global economic crisis for more than 80 years. Of course, nobody foresaw that. There were no Conservative Members suggesting that the ways in which our banks were regulated would lead to the economic crisis. To pretend that you knew that that was coming or that the deficit that has been built up is somehow irrelevant to that is just ludicrous, and no one believes you, so you really must stop trying to treat people like fools when you say that the deficit that has been created was something that happened just because we had a Labour Government—

--- Later in debate ---

[Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con)]

I am very grateful to you for calling me to speak in the debate, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I feel privileged to follow my hon. Friends the Members for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) and for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), who outlined in their compelling speeches why the Budget is incredibly important. The issue that we have not really focused on enough is the context of the Budget. We all—even Opposition Members—accept that the deficit is too large and that at some point in this Parliament we have to deal with it. The big point of contention between the coalition Government and the Opposition is how soon we should grapple with the deficit.

We forget the fair hopes that we had in 1997 when the then Chancellor of the Exchequer produced his first Budget, entitled “Equipping Britain for our long-term future”. That was the message that he wanted to send. That financial statement and Budget report came out in July 1997, and it was in that report that he famously stated his golden rule:

“The golden rule means that over the economic cycle the Government will borrow only to finance public investment and not to fund current expenditure.”

So far so good. The second rule was that he would maintain stable public finances—a requirement for our long-term economic stability.

[Toby Perkins]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that those rules were changed only in the face of huge, global economic crisis. His party supported the change when the economic crisis struck, so was it incorrect to do that?

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

The hon. Gentleman will remember that the second rule was that

“public debt as a proportion of national income will be held over the economic cycle at a stable and prudent level.”

The then Chancellor concluded the 1997 report by stating:

“These rules will ensure that borrowing will be kept under firm control.”

Everyone applauded him. He was talking about prudence; he was the Iron Chancellor and very much the hero of the hour. In the same report, he referred to the recession of the early 1990s. His conclusion was that the public sector borrowing requirement rose to a peak at 7% of GDP and he said:

“The Government regards it as important that no similar risks should be taken with fiscal policy again.”

That was the position of the Labour party in 1997, and in 2006 Labour was repeating the same mantra and the same pie in the sky ideas. It was saying that

“public sector net debt is projected to remain low and stable over the forecast period”.

In 2007, it said:

“The Budget 2007 projections for the public finances are broadly in line with the 2006 Pre Budget Report”,

and so on.