High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill

Debate between Kwasi Kwarteng and Frank Dobson

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con)]

I am pleased to speak in favour of Second Reading and against the amendment. I have been struck today by the large degree of cross-party support that High Speed 2 commands. Obviously, we have heard objections from Members on both sides of the House, largely from people representing constituencies that will be affected by the route. That is perfectly understandable; that is what happens in the House of Commons. Different interests come together—often there is conflict, and often there is compromise. It is perfectly legitimate for people whose constituents, and their livelihoods, are affected by the direct building of the route to state their objections, but it is also perfectly reasonable for people to speak in this House on behalf of the national interest and it is clear to me that High Speed 2 is very much in the national interest.

[Frank Dobson]

I am reminded that within a week of first becoming a Member of this House, there was a vote on an issue that had those on both Front Benches on the same side. An old Tory knight of the shires said to me, “Whenever the two Front Benches are in agreement, some poor devil is being done down.”

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s witty intervention, but I do not think it has anything to do with the debate. It was an enjoyable interlude.

We have not had any real perception, understanding or analysis in the debate of what high-speed rail has meant for our partner countries in Europe. I am a member of the Select Committee on Transport and we went to France and to Germany. Nobody in those countries is suggesting that they should close down their high-speed routes. Indeed, everyone we met, from local residents to other stakeholders, Government people and business people, was determined to expand the network.

I am not suggesting for a minute that because such things are supported in France and Germany we should follow that path, but I am saying that we should investigate, as we have, the reasons behind their approach. We need some very good reasons why Britain is so peculiar and different that high-speed rail will not benefit us. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State observed, Italy has 960 miles of high-speed rail. We have only a small amount—only 60 miles, I believe—

The Economy

Debate between Kwasi Kwarteng and Frank Dobson

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)]

As one of the ancients, I must say that I was heartened by the maiden speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), for Croydon North (Steve Reed) and for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), who brought a great deal of cogency and compassion to the debate. I look forward to their participating yet more.

I have been struck, yet again, by the extent to which the thinking of Conservative Members is utterly dominated by the myth of the Thatcher legacy: that she transformed the British economy and that it was saved from ruin through competition, deregulation and privatisation. One can expect Tories to think that, but a lot of commentators in the newspapers and on television and radio clearly take the same view. It is entirely erroneous. The annual economic growth under Mrs Thatcher was exactly the same as that under the Governments of Jim Callaghan and Harold Wilson who preceded her.

But Mrs Thatcher had no excuse. The windfall takings from privatisation and North sea oil amounted to £155 billion. Practically every other country in the world that had such a windfall established a sovereign wealth fund to be invested over a long period. Instead, these Tories who claim to be careful with money blew the lot.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Frank Dobson]

No, I shall not give way for the time being because I cannot make up my mind whether the hon. Gentleman is here or not.

The hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) ought to remember that Mrs Thatcher abolished apprenticeships. She did not invest in research, improving engineering, infrastructure or retooling British industry. Her real legacy was to introduce the almost total dominance of banking and finance into our economy. What a decade and a decade and a decade we got out of that!

The bankers’ bonus has become one of the greatest scandals of all time. The British Bankers Association, the trade group of these respectable bankers, actually ran the LIBOR rate rigging so that people could make money. The payment protection insurance scams were intended to make money—they were not a charitable effort. Barclays was involved in the LIBOR scandal, in the PPI scandal and in sanctions busting, and it managed to lose £7 billion in the crash. Its auditors, PricewaterhouseCoopers, apparently did not notice any of that. It should have noticed, because the bank was not involved in those things as a charity; it was getting a percentage of every transaction and one would have thought its auditors might have spotted that.

The magnificent HSBC was involved in the LIBOR and PPI scandals, and we now know it was involved in sanctions busting in Iran, Burma and North Korea. It has been involved in the financing of gunrunners and in money laundering from drug barons in Mexico. To facilitate the Mexican drug barons it opened not six, 60, 600 or 6,000 but 60,000 secret accounts for Mexicans in the Cayman Islands, and it received a percentage from each. HSBC was not in it as a charity; it was in it to get money.

Presumably, some of the bankers were paid bonuses for the profits they made from sanctions busting, gunrunning and money laundering, yet HSBC, the former masters of the universe, lost £27 billion in the crash and its auditors, KPMG, did not get a sniff of it—not a thing. That is a disgrace and is damaging our economy and the reputation of British businesses trying to get work abroad. People say, “Have you got one of these dodgy auditors? Have you got a dodgy banker on your team? It’s not very helpful if you have.” That is a real problem.

To make up for the mess that the bankers caused—and continue to cause—ordinary people in this country are expected to skimp and save. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) shares the problem I have in my constituency of housing benefit. She will, therefore, be familiar with stories such as that of the woman who came to my advice service on Friday and lives in a council flat that was sold under the right to buy. She is expected to pay £485 rent to the private landlord who now owns that flat, but has been told that her benefit will come down by £160 a week, meaning she can no longer live there. Perhaps more importantly—even to decent, what used to be one-nation Tories—her nine-year-old daughter who is doing well at primary school will not be able to live in that flat any more, and neither will her 19-year-old son who is doing an apprenticeship. They will be driven out under what I first described—I know the Deputy Prime Minister does not like this description—as a policy of social cleansing.

The chair of the Tory party—when he isn’t Mr Green—says that people should not be able to live in places they cannot afford, but what about the people in my constituency who sweep the streets, keep the hospitals clean, work as nurses, drive buses and make the city work and a civilised place? They are exactly the people who are being driven out by the benefit changes, and I hope to God my party will vote against them.