Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Kim Leadbeater and Tom Gordon

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Kim Leadbeater (Spen Valley) (Lab)]

Q For clarity, Dr Ward, you are right that clause 34 requests that the chief medical officer submits an annual report. You clearly have many years of experience in this subject. For you, what does best practice look like when it comes to assisted dying, end of life choice and end of life care? That is what we are all aiming for in our deliberations. How do we keep it patient-centred?

I notice that you have also spoken a lot about misinformation; how do we tackle that? How do we make sure we are dealing with facts rather than speculation? In particular, how do we provide reassurance to marginalised communities and people with disabilities, who are understandably nervous about this change in the law? When it comes to safeguards and protections, what does best practice look like?

Dr Ward: To take your last point first, we must involve them in the process and have an open dialogue with them. That means not just in the consultation process, when you are considering passing legislation, but when you have your implementation taskforce, on which you must make sure you have representation from across all the stakeholders involved, including people with disabilities and people with terminal illnesses.

I would point to the fact that best practice is about balancing the autonomy, dignity and compassion that the Bill aims to achieve by giving people the option of assisted dying, while also protecting vulnerable people who feel that there are worries and concerns. However, having worked in this area for 13 years and seen people who would really benefit from having this option, and living now in a jurisdiction that has it, I would point out that some of the most vulnerable people I have seen are the terminally ill who want and need this choice. It is about taking a holistic and evidenced-based approach.

You as a Committee will hear from the great and the good across the board, and I am pleased that the Committee is taking account of lived experience, because that is very important to inform the decision-making process. It is about making sure that we are going to the source of evidence and using peer-reviewed data and Government data. Again, as I said earlier, you really need to trust your international colleagues who have gone before you on this. We need to consider what the Bill does versus inaccurate perceptions of or speculations on what it might do. The task here is to consider what is in front of you, not what might happen down the road.

[Tom Gordon (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD)]

Q Dr Ward, I think the point about a holistic and evidence-based approach is critical. In the work that you did in the Scottish example you gave, how was the terminal illness definition arrived at? How are you capturing those people who are vulnerable and want to have an assisted death, but might end up limited in their scope and ability to access it?

Dr Ward: Look: assisted dying is the same as any other healthcare choice. It is always going to be limited. We are not going to reach everyone that we absolutely would want to. There are people who want to have this option and this choice who will not qualify under a terminal illness definition, but we have to draw the line somewhere. We looked at international evidence from Commonwealth countries that are very closely linked to Scotland and the UK. We drew the line with the definition that the person has an advanced progressive illness from which they are unable to recover and that will cause their premature death. For us, that demands the support of Members of Parliament in Scotland and the support of the public.

I really stress the fact that each jurisdiction has to legislate according to its own constitutional, societal, legal and cultural considerations, which is what we have done in Scotland. That is the definition that is working for us now. Previously, there were more liberal attempts that did not gain the support of the House. We believe that we have arrived at a situation that is very similar to the definition of terminal illness here in Westminster, and that is both safe and compassionate but also draws the line so that people who should not be able to access this do not.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Kim Leadbeater and Tom Gordon

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Tom Gordon]

Q Since the assisted dying Bill had its Second Reading, we have seen announcements from the Government about investment into palliative care. Obviously that is mostly capital and we need to see more long-term funding. Do you feel we are already seeing increases as a result of this conversation? Is there any reason why that should not continue?

Dr Cox: I would love to see it continue. I am part of the commission on palliative and end of life care. There is no guarantee that the recommendations of that commission will be funded, and that is what concerns me. I would love to see that happen. Would it not be great if the two could happen simultaneously? But there is no guarantee that that will happen.

James Sanderson: I want to come in on your point and agree with Sarah’s points. Obviously, we welcomed the Government’s announcement of the additional funding for the hospice sector, but the Committee will be aware that the hospice sector currently receives only about 30% of its funding from statutory sources. We are therefore reliant on the good will of the population to raise money and support us in various ways, and through retail and other ventures that we have.

On the point about universality of service, we have in the Health and Care Act 2022 a requirement for integrated care boards to commission palliative care services that meet the needs of their population, but although there is guidance as to what that should look like, there is not universal take-up of that guidance and delivery of all of the stated services. Although that is outside the scope of this Bill, it comes back to the context of how much the overall position can be strengthened across the country. The context for anybody looking to make a decision is within the same space. As Dr Clarke said in respect of informed choice, if the context is the same for everybody, we can have more confidence that that informed choice is made at the right level.

[Kim Leadbeater (Spen Valley) (Lab)]

Q Goodness me, there is a lot to cover.

To go back to your point, Mr Sanderson, it is important to acknowledge the fantastic work that palliative care professionals do. Indeed, it is extremely important that we are having these conversations, which is why we gave extra time to this panel of witnesses.

Dr Cox, on your point about the pressure on the individual doctors involved in the process, the Bill is very clear that if they do not have the relevant specialism, they must refer to a specialist in that condition, and they “can” refer to a psychiatrist. There is probably consensus that we maybe need to strengthen the Bill in that regard. When there are doubts around capacity, doctors probably “must” refer to a psychiatrist. That is something I am taking away from these sessions.

I was interested in the comments about the multidisciplinary approach. We heard about that this morning from colleagues in social work and in nursing. I would love to know your thoughts, Dr Ahmedzai, about the idea of a multidisciplinary approach. I think there is a lot of value in that.

Dr Clarke, on this concept around training, it worries me that we have seen this afternoon a very different picture painted by you and others compared with what we heard this morning, when we had doctors and nurses telling us that they regularly assess for capacity and coercion. They said it is part of their day-to-day work and they were very confident in their ability to do that. Training is fundamental, and this is an opportunity to look at gold-standard training. I would be interested to know your thoughts on that.

Dr Ahmedzai: You asked me about the multidisciplinary nature of this. I am really glad you raised that, because we seem to be focusing on palliative care as being very professional, and I would remind people that there are levels of palliative care. A lot of palliative care is given not by specialists like the three of us here but by generalists—either GPs, as we have heard, or by oncologists or geriatricians. When we talk about increasing palliative care and improving palliative care, it is not just about more doctors like us working at a specialist level.

The other thing is that it is not just doctors. We have to acknowledge that nurses are on the frontline; they do so much more than doctors. When doctors clock off at 5 o’clock in those sad institutions that still do not provide 24/7 cover, there are nurses at the bedside all around the clock. Then, there are social workers, physiotherapists and others. If we are talking about meeting the needs of people who may not necessarily have pain but have other forms of suffering or worries, which are not even physical—the loss of dignity and the loss of independence—nurses are so good at supporting people in that. A doctor will just get in the way.

What we need to do is make sure that we are addressing the reasons why many people choose this. I know, from speaking to people abroad, that it is loss of dignity and loss of independence. Is that not a legitimate reason for wishing that you were not a burden on somebody, or on the state even? It is really important that we consider that.

The other thing to bring in as well, if we are thinking about the big picture, is another elephant in the room: palliative care is not strictly speaking actually in the NHS—not all of it. A lot of it is outside of the NHS, for historical reasons from 50 or 60 years ago when decisions were made. Although there are excellent charities providing discrete areas of it, we rely so much on non-NHS services. You would never think of going to a charity to get your heart transplant or your kidney dialysis. We need to confront the fact that palliative care is fractured because of that history and the genesis of how palliative care came to be. It is not just NHS. We must think about the multidisciplinarity.

Dr Clarke: Regarding training and how much it is required, I would not be the first person to make the observation that sometimes doctors can be very pleased with their own abilities at a particular practice, and that practice might be having a conversation where you are assessing someone’s capacity.

What is interesting as a palliative care specialist is that I and my team will be asked to get involved with patients in every possible bit of the hospital—surgical wards, medical wards, intensive care, emergency departments—so you actually see a huge number of patients being treated by many different teams and many different doctors, junior and senior, all of whom are having these difficult, nuanced conversations around the end of life with varying degrees of skill. Of course some doctors and nurses are superbly skilled at having them, and I would say that there are many who are not.

The reason training is so important is that it is a little bit like Donald Rumsfeld’s unknown unknowns. You might not even be aware of the fact that you have caused a patient or their family distress. In a conversation where fear is a dominant part—the patient is fearful of suffering misery and loss of dignity at the end of life, but they may not voice that—you as the doctor can be completely oblivious of the fact that you have sort of stamped over those unvoiced fears with your hobnail boots. You are not aware of it.

This idea that a vulnerable patient needs to be absolutely at the centre of any conversation you are having is quite radical in some parts of the NHS. It needs to be taught much more assertively from day one of medical school, so that vulnerable patients are always at the centre of the room. That is why I think the single most important thing for the Bill and its safety comes down to training and actually recognising that these conversations are difficult and nuanced. If we assume that, we are going to make sure that the Bill is as safe as it can be.