Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Kim Leadbeater and Jim Shannon

Friday 16th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Kim Leadbeater]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. If I may just finish that point—

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

rose—

[Jim Shannon]

Mr Speaker, I will always be at the end of the list, so it is important for me to make an intervention. The hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater) set the scene very well on Second Reading, but since then things have changed. For instance, the Royal College of Psychiatrists has voiced strong concerns in opposition to the Bill about judicial oversight, robust protections against coercion and so on, as well as the effect it will have on vulnerable groups such as those with dementia, Down syndrome or mental illnesses. Does the hon. Lady not respect the viewpoints of my constituents who tell me that they are opposed to the Bill in principle and all the things that are coming forward? The new clause does not address the issues that the hon. Lady is referring to.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention and he is absolutely right that there are a range of views on this issue, and I am deeply respectful of that. I take all those points into consideration as we embark on this debate again today.

Perhaps most importantly, Mr Speaker, I have spoken to terminally ill people themselves over recent months. It is impossible to know what it must feel like to receive a terminal diagnosis and I have nothing but admiration for people who have bravely spoken about their personal situations, some publicly—including, of course, Dame Esther Rantzen—and others who have done so privately, many by emailing their MP. I know mine is not the only inbox full of such emails.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kim Leadbeater]

I will just finish this point. If we refer to the impact assessment, the number of people who will access assisted dying in the first few years will be very small. I think there are around 4,500 psychiatrists in the country, but there is also a period of time of a number of years to do the training required for psychiatrists taking part in the process, so I would not anticipate any problems there.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Kim Leadbeater]

I will keep going, if I may, because I think I have been fairly fair.

Amendment 78 ensures that all three members of the panel must agree before a certificate of eligibility is issued, so abstentions cannot result in approval. The amendment came about as a result of discussions in Committee. It is really important to clarify that when the panel of experts is doing its work, its decision must be unanimous for a certificate of eligibility to be granted and for the patient to proceed. If a panel member abstains, no certificate of eligibility can be granted to the person.

Schedule 2 also sets out that the panel must give reasons for its decision in each case. This is really important. Amendment 79 ensures that those reasons—the reasons for the panel’s decision—are communicated in writing in a document to the person to whom the referral in question relates, the co-ordinating doctor and the commissioner. This creates clear channels of communication and will enable those people to fully understand the expert panel’s decisions.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the hon. Lady give way on that point?

[Kim Leadbeater]

I am going to finish, if I may, because other people want to speak.

Amendment 14, which was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford West (Naz Shah)—another outstanding member of the Committee—states:

“A person who would not otherwise meet the requirements of subsection (1) shall not be considered to meet those requirements solely as a result of voluntarily stopping eating or drinking.”

I suspect the amendment has been put forward as a result of the lengthy discussions in Committee regarding whether people with anorexia would be eligible for an assisted death under the Bill. In my previous career before becoming an MP, I worked with a number of people with eating disorders. I am very aware of the hugely sensitive and complex issues surrounding disordered eating, particularly anorexia. I also know that this is a personal issue for a number of colleagues across the House, as a result of their own experiences. Eating disorders cause huge distress for individuals, their families and loved ones, but with care and the right treatment, it is possible for people to recover and to go back to leading a full and fulfilling life.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kim Leadbeater]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The amendment is not specifically about eating disorders; there is a broader context. I will come to that later.

It is with that experience in mind—my own personal experience and having spoken to many colleagues on this issue—that I say now, as I said in Committee, that under the Bill as it stands, having anorexia would not qualify a person to be eligible for an assisted death. The Bill is clear that a person cannot be considered terminally ill on the basis only of a mental disorder. Clause 2 makes it clear that a person must have an inevitably progressive illness or disease that cannot be reversed by treatment. Anorexia is a serious mental health condition that is not inevitably progressive and can, thankfully, be reversed by treatment. Of course, at every stage of the assisted dying process the patient must be found to have capacity to make the decision, and this is checked repeatedly throughout the process. Someone with severe anorexia would be highly unlikely to be assessed to have capacity to make a decision on assisted dying.

The other tragic reality is that if a patient was so ill as a result of not eating and drinking for whatever reason, they would die before the process of assisted dying was able to take place, as it could take up to two months to complete all the stages of the process as set out in the Bill, and the latest clinical guidance states that the general range of survival once voluntary stopping of eating and drinking has begun is between seven and 21 days. Stopping eating and drinking also leads to a range of symptoms that would make meaningful conversations, as required by the Bill, impossible.

Having said that, I know that some people have expressed concerns that the severe physical consequences of a decision to stop eating or drinking could still enable someone to claim eligibility for assisted dying when they would not otherwise be able to do so, and I believe that is the motivation behind amendment 14.

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

[Kim Leadbeater]

I will take one final intervention.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Lady is very kind. At the moment, she is outlining the case for those who have problems with their eating and their diets almost to the point where they are unable to make their own decisions, and she is outlining what is going to happen here. What would she say about the situation in Belgium and in Canada, where assisted dying has been legalised for people with eating disorders? This may progress from what she has said and go way beyond that, as has been proven in other countries across the world.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point. The eligibility criteria in this Bill are very different from those in the jurisdictions he mentions—people with mental health conditions are not eligible for assisted dying under the provisions of this Bill.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Kim Leadbeater and Jim Shannon

2nd reading
Friday 29th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kim Leadbeater]

I agree absolutely. Those conversations, which are not taking place at the moment, are very important. I will make some progress.

There has rightly been a lot of discussion about palliative care in recent weeks, and I am convinced that a significant amount of that discussion would not have taken place without the introduction of the Bill. It is a long overdue conversation, and I am very pleased to see it happening.

I have met with the Association for Palliative Medicine, Hospice UK, Sue Ryder and Marie Curie, and last week I was delighted to attend the inaugural meeting of the all-party parliamentary group for hospices. I also attended the fantastic Kirkwood hospice, which serves my constituency of Spen Valley. I pay tribute to the dedicated staff and volunteers across the country in the palliative care sector, who do some of the most vital work in society. We must do more to support them, and I look forward to working with the Government and colleagues across the House in that important endeavour. That is why I have included in the Bill a requirement for the Secretary of State to report to the House on the availability, quality and distribution of palliative care.

Of course, assisted dying is not a substitute for palliative care—it is not an either/or. We have some of the best palliative care in the world in this country, and, when it can meet the needs of terminally ill people, it is second to none. However, when it cannot, surely the choice of an assisted death should be one component of a holistic approach to end of life care.

The comprehensive report by the Health and Social Care Committee, published earlier this year, found no indications of palliative care deteriorating in quality or provision in places where assisted dying had been introduced.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Ever mindful of what the hon. Lady has said about the criteria, I remind her that Belgium started off with a simple project like the one she refers to but it deteriorated and expanded to include sufferers of dementia and under-18s—children. What guarantees do we have that this legislation will not end up with a situation like that in Belgium, in which case anything goes? Is that what the hon. Lady wants? I do not want that. Does she?

[Kim Leadbeater]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention, but let us be very, very clear. Huge amounts of research has been done by the Health and Social Care Committee, and indeed by myself and others. The model being proposed here is nothing like what happens in Belgium. It is nothing like what happens in Canada. There are strict, stringent criteria, and if the House chooses to pass the Bill, those criteria cannot be changed.

Elderly and Vulnerable People: Loneliness and Isolation

Debate between Kim Leadbeater and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

May I say what a pleasure it is to follow all the hon. Members who have spoken so far? They have made some fantastic contributions —particularly the hon. Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas), who led the debate. By requesting it, he has allowed us all to participate and to make our own contributions.

Like the hon. Member for St Ives, I represent a rural and coastal constituency, with many homes situated out of the way, isolated from the centres of towns and villages. When the Minister kindly visited my constituency, he had the opportunity to travel through it, but he perhaps did not see all the things that this debate is about, although we were pleased to have him and we look forward to him coming back—such are the memories made on these occasions. In many of the houses in my constituency, there are older couples who have lived in their homes for years—we would say years and years and years; that is how long it is—but despite that there is still a sense of loneliness in the area. So it is great to be able to discuss what more we can do to combat that.

I cannot even begin to count how many fantastic community hubs and men’s sheds there are in my constituency to support and assist the elderly, those who are lonely and those who may not have any drive or focus and who, in some cases, may have depression, anxiety and mental health issues. I have worked closely with Cathy Polley, who manages the Ards Community Network in Strangford. She is an instrumental figure in the community, providing a safe place for people of all ages, not just the elderly.

Community support is absolutely essential. When constituents live more rurally, it is crucial to have those hubs in villages, where they are closer to home for the elderly to access. We have often talked in this place about the struggle of rural transport, and the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), asked about rural transport in her intervention. That is an issue for all our constituents, and ensuring that local connection will make all the difference. The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) referred to the £2 pass and asked what good a £2 ticket is if there are no buses. It is a good question. We need to have real access; that is important.

There have been so many advances in society recently that ultimately cause a feeling of vulnerability and isolation in the elderly population. In Strangford, I have witnessed the closure of many high street banks because everything is now online or seems to be heading that way, and local shops have closed because we have less footfall and an environment where most services are provided through the internet. That is further isolating the elderly population, and it saddens me immensely to think of elderly couples who may not have any family and who may struggle to renew their passports, sort out online banking and so on.

I have had people come into my office for help with these things—rest assured, we are more than happy to help, and we do so regularly. I suspect that all Members do the same, and the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale referred to one such occasion. Sometimes our constituents just need someone to talk to, but sometimes they need someone to sort things out as well. We have the staff, and we have the online contacts, so why not just do that? They are always grateful, which makes our job 10 times easier. I have to say that it brings me a lot of joy as well.

I am very pleased that the hon. Member for Batley and Spen (Kim Leadbeater) is present. I had intended to speak about my next point even before she came in—I knew she would probably read Hansard tomorrow and catch up anyway—but I am pleased that she is here now. I want to speak about the Jo Cox Commission on Loneliness. Many of us are aware of it, and the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) referred to it. During her time as an MP, Jo Cox was dedicated to combating loneliness in the UK. Jo formed an independent cross-party commission of MPs and artists to highlight the fact that we can all do something to help lonely people in our community. I remember Jo’s words: she wanted to

“turbocharge the public’s awareness of loneliness”.

By bringing together all those MPs, bodies and charities, that is what she did. It really is a pleasure to see the hon. Member for Batley and Spen in her place today.

Following Jo’s tragic murder, the commission was taken forward in her memory by the right hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) and Seema Kennedy, the former Member for South Ribble. It is fantastic that the campaign that Jo started, which has left a legacy for her—her sister, the hon. Member for Batley and Spen, will carry that on—is being supported and that more is being done to tackle loneliness across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

There are so many fantastic services available for elderly people, but it is right to ensure that those services are accessible to them and that they are encouraged to avail themselves of them, especially in the run-up to Christmas, when feelings of loneliness are heightened as we remember those we have lost. When I say to somebody, “Have a lovely Christmas,” I am always conscious that it might not be. Christmas might be the time that they lost someone, and that will be their eternal memory of Christmas—every Christmas, repeated forever and ever, amen. I am therefore always a wee bit hesitant when I say, “Have a nice Christmas,” or whatever it may be. I hope that their Christmas will be a nice Christmas.

At a time of year when there is supposed to be so much joy, we often forget that there is an older population who are struggling. We can all do something small this Christmas, such as make a phone call. About three weeks ago, I read a suggestion in the paper that we not just call an elderly neighbour but call round and see him or her. That is something that we should all be doing and that each MP should encourage people to do—I put a press release out along those lines, because I thought it was important to do so. We should support an elderly person we know and give them some company. It is a joyous time of year, because it is when our saviour was born, and that is important, but it is also a time when people need support. The hon. Member for St Ives is to be commended for bringing this debate forward; he has done something to which we can all relate and on which we can all act.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words about the Jo Cox Commission on Loneliness. He makes an important point. Will he join me in paying tribute to the many volunteers and organisations that will be reaching out to people over the festive period and ensuring, as far as is possible, that no one feels lonely or alone? Does he also agree that January and February can be very lonely months for people? Because there is so much going on around Christmastime, it can be easy to stay connected; as we approach January and February, it can feel a little harder, and sometimes people feel even more isolated.

[Jim Shannon]

I was anticipating that the hon. Lady would intervene and I am happy that she did. She is right: Christmas is over, the new year comes in and very quickly people are thinking about paying off their debts, but the loneliness that was there before Christmas is still there in January and February. With that in mind, I conclude, and I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention.

2002 Gujarat Riots

Debate between Kim Leadbeater and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 9th February 2022 Westminster Hall

[Kim Leadbeater (Batley and Spen) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the 20th anniversary of the 2002 Gujarat riots.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I am grateful for the opportunity to open this debate, which is my very first Westminster Hall debate.

The riots took place in the days following 27 February 2002 in the Indian state of Gujarat. The precise death toll remains a matter of dispute, even as we approach the 20th anniversary of the events. There is no agreement on the facts of what happened, never mind who was or was not complicit in instigating the violence or allowing it to continue. All we can say with certainty is that, at the very least, 1,000 people lost their lives and that the majority of them were Muslim.

There have been numerous investigations and inquiries, including by the Indian Supreme Court and highly respected organisations, such as the international Human Rights Watch. However, as far as I am aware, none of these has reached conclusions acceptable to all parties, communities and faiths. It is not my role here in the British Parliament—very distant in both time and location from those horrific occurrences—to pass judgment. I would not be able to do so even if I wanted to. What I can do, and what I very much want to do, is consider the legacy of what happened from the point of view of the families of those who lost their lives or were seriously injured. Today is about acknowledging the loss and hopefully providing some comfort, and maybe even some closure, for those families.

Every act of violence has repercussions well beyond those caught up directly in it. Some survivors and relatives will never fully get over the trauma of what happened. For others, while the pain may lessen over time, it will never disappear completely. As hon. Members will know, I have personal experience of this—not just of the loss and the hurt but, crucially, of the desire to never forget our loved ones and to try and learn something from the most horrific of events and so that we do all can to ensure they are not repeated.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing forward her first Westminster Hall debate. I have no doubt that it will be the first of many. Does she not agree that these devastating riots, which led to thousands of deaths, as she mentioned, hold lessons for us, and that we must continue to remember the 2002 Gujarat riots to teach our children the result of intolerance and anger?