British Indian Ocean Territory
Kieran Mullan Excerpts(1 day, 15 hours ago)
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Sir Iain Duncan Smith
If she is not careful, I might ask her to share a drink with me later. [Interruption.] I know, it’s irresistible, isn’t it? The main point is that she did not. That is as clear as mud. I asked a very specific question: did they waive their right over this particular agreement? That makes this, from the word go, not inconclusive and not, therefore, a mysterious judgment. It is an advisory judgment and the Government are under no pressure to accept it.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is ironic that we are apparently willing to give in to a judgment from a judge from China who oversaw the erosion of rights of the people in Hong Kong, in violation of our agreement with them? That is shocking and shows the weakness of slavishly adhering to international law.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
The interesting point, which I raise because the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead said that we should remember that this is also about the security of Ukraine and others—I fully agree—is that three of those judges voted against censure of Russia when it invaded Ukraine. We have to be very careful, because that ulterior motive is quite different from what he claims, quite legitimately, is part of our reasoning; I fully agree with him on that basis.
On obeying the law, this is the law, and we do not have a judgment from a court that can be held by other United Nations bodies as standing. If that is the case, all the other legal points, which the Government started raising only after they realised that the ruling was advisory, do not stand either. It would be ultra vires of bodies such as the International Telecommunication Union suddenly to claim that there was a judgment against us and to act on that basis, as that would be a transgression of the original agreement.
The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller), who spoke for the Liberal Democrats, made some of these points, but I want to raise this quickly with the Minister. The Chagossians I have spoken to have all said that they would rather be UK passport holders, and they just want to go home—and “going home” means turning around that bad judgment from the ’60s so that they can go back to their territory. I would love that to have happened from day one; that would have solved this. The Chagossians do not want to be under the suzerainty of any country other than the UK; and they want their possessions back. The reality is that we did not really ask them about that, but we should have done from day one.
It would help the Government’s argument that they are acting in the public interest if they were much more open about what has been going on in these negotiations. There is a legitimate question about that. We all unite behind the idea of the Prime Minister raising defence spending, and we wish him the best when he goes to Washington; that is in our public interest. As I made clear at the statement yesterday, I would stand behind nobody in my support for him on that.
I therefore ask the Government why they simply will not answer the question about where any money in the agreement is going to be taken from. Surely that would end the debate. They do not have to say what the amount is; they simply have to say that it will come from the defence budget, or whatever budget it is. If they said that, that would look open. Will they please also open up about what they have been discussing? It is all stalled now, so maybe they should reflect on the difficulties.
The reality is that this whole process has been ill-thought through. What we need to do now is ensure that the Government stop, rethink the process and do not search for excuses that are not legal at all, but accept that our security and that of all the trade routes that cross through the area are under threat if they proceed with this process.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Catherine West)
We have heard some really interesting contributions during this debate. We have had some wild maths, which Carol Vorderman would have had a word or two to say about. We have had some insulting comments from the right hon. Member for Tonbridge (Tom Tugendhat), who was downright playing the man—or the woman—and not the ball, earlier in the debate. However, I will try to respond to some of the points raised, and certainly those that the Minister for Development did not answer. I think she did a pretty good job in opening the debate.
As my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey) said, the Chagos islands deal is paramount for our national security. It secures the joint UK-US base on Diego Garcia; without it, the operation of that base is at risk. Once finalised, the deal will ensure that the base can operate as it has done well into the next century. As Members know, Diego Garcia is a joint UK-US base, and it is only right that the new US Administration has the opportunity to review the agreement—that point has been made on a number of occasions tonight. We will continue to hold constructive discussions with the US on the deal. As my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Louise Jones) said, we will only agree a deal that is in the UK’s best interests and protects our national security. She, of course, has extensive experience in security and defence matters.
Many colleagues have asked about the cost of the deal and whether payments have increased. The claims being circulated in the media are categorically untrue. The overall cost of the deal has not changed from that negotiated under the former Mauritian Prime Minister. The initial political agreement signed in October was clear that the annual payment would be indexed, and that position has not changed. As the right hon. Member for Braintree (Mr Cleverly)—who is no longer in his place—has said, this was a policy of the previous Government, one that had long been agreed in writing with the previous Mauritian Government. Once the treaty is signed, it will be laid before both Houses for scrutiny in the usual way.
This deal has not been rushed. In fact, it was the subject of several—
Catherine West
I will just finish this point.
The new UK Government inherited a situation in which the long-term future of the base was under threat. The previous Government obviously agreed with this Government that there was a need to act, and rightly so—otherwise, the two years of negotiations would not have taken place. Successive Conservative Prime Ministers, Foreign Secretaries and Defence Secretaries recognised this and gave instructions to begin negotiations in 2022, holding 11 rounds before July 2024.
Catherine West
What this debate has shown is that some Members are finding it difficult to deal with the fact that a treaty is between two sovereign Governments, and that when a Government are operating, they have the right to make negotiations in their own way, particularly with the sort of majority that was achieved last July. Of course, we have to have parliamentary debates and questions have to be asked.