Housing and Planning Bill (First sitting)

Kevin Hollinrake Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

A large number of interests. I wish I had some.

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

May I draw Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests?

[The Chair]

All duly noted. Thank you very much indeed.

Before we move to the discussion, I need to deal with a few formalities. I first call the Minister to move the programme motion.

Ordered,

That—

(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 10 November) meet— (a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 10 November;

(b) at 9.25 am on Tuesday 17 November;

(c) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 19 November;

(d) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 24 November;

(e) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 26 November;

(f) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 1 December;

(g) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 3 December;

(h) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 8 December;

(i) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 10 December;

(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:

--- Later in debate ---

[Seema Kennedy]

Q 15 In relation to clauses 22 to 31 on rogue landlords, do you think the provisions in the Bill will raise the standard of property available in the rental sector in London?

Richard Blakeway: We very warmly welcome Government’s measures on tackling rogue—often criminal—landlords, not just the measures in the Bill but more widely. We very strongly welcome that. One of the key changes which we would like to see is for us to have access to the data which will be collected around bad landlords. One of those clauses pertains to that. We would like the GLA to have access to that because it would enable us to build on existing programmes which are seeking to improve the quality of the rented sector in the capital, not least the London rental standard. We have something like 140,000 private rented properties already managed under that standard and the higher expectations which that demands. So we think it will make a significant impact, we welcome the changes, but we would like access to the bad landlord database.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q 16 Mr Blakeway, one of the biggest challenges in providing more housing is delays in the planning system. There are a number of measures in the Bill, such as insisting on local plans by 2017, simplifying overall plans and more timely decisions in planning in principle. How do you think these will work out in terms of expediting the planning system?

Richard Blakeway: We welcome all the measures that are being introduced by the Government to try to accelerate or expedite the planning processes. As you know, since the GLA’s inception, we have had a long-established strategic planning role and in particular we are keen to build upon clause 101, which gives the Mayor greater authority to exercise those strategic planning powers. In addition, we would like to be able to play a role around permission in principle and issuing development orders, as well as the register of brownfield sites and our ability to co-ordinate that. As a basic principle, we would like to see the Mayor of London exercise the kind of functions that the Secretary of State envisages exercising in the rest of the country.

[Mr Jackson]

Q 17 Obviously there is a predisposition in the Bill towards support for residential accommodation and housing in London and across the country. What impact do you think that might have, specifically in London, on commercial and business premises?

Richard Blakeway: I think that some of the issues in relation to the conversion of office to residential are actually outside the Bill. None the less, we very much welcome the Government’s agreement that there will be an exemption until May 2019 for some of the existing areas that we have sought exemptions for, such as the CAZ—the central activities zone—the Royal Docks enterprise zone, Tech City, and the northern part of the Isle of Dogs. We really welcome the Government’s move on that. Clearly, the article 4 measure allows those areas to formulate an application to extend the exemption beyond 2019 and there is obviously a window to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Bacon]

You might want to look at Berlin.

Phil Glanville: Returning to what Mayor Bullock said about scale, it is the scalability of the housing co-ops that exist in London that makes it challenging. We are looking at working with, say, the almshouse movement to build new, affordable homes that are also exempt because people are beneficiaries rather than tenants. Where we can innovate on our land, we will do so, but the scale of the crisis in terms of the thousands of homes that we need to build makes it difficult to use the co-op movement as it is currently constituted.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q 43 The National Audit Office recently produced a report saying that some local authorities had reduced their budgets for planning and their planning departments by up to 50%. The Bill contains a number of changes that should expedite the planning process. Will this mean that authorities are more likely to staff up their planning departments with the right number of competent people to be able to turn round applications?

Philippa Roe: The absolute key to having the right staffing within our planning departments is to be able to charge a fee that covers the cost of expediting the planning process. At the moment, we cannot charge anything like enough to cover that cost, so basically our council tax payer is subsidising the developers. We are very lucky in Westminster, because of where we are. We have a Westminster Property Association, which funds six planners, to whom its members have access. We can pay appropriate salaries to attract good people, but they are limited to the Westminster Property Association members. I think other local authorities struggle, as we struggle with the rest of our planning applications. As was mentioned earlier, our good people who have Westminster experience are very valuable in the private sector, and they are being hoovered up. We cannot keep them unless we can pay them the appropriate salaries. We really need planning fees to be raised.

Martin Tett: I completely support Councillor Roe on this. There is an almost universal plea from local authorities, whatever their political complexion, that they be allowed to recoup the costs of planning with appropriate planning fees. That would do a great deal to help us to resource up. I also re-echo the point that some of the salaries that the private sector pays good, experienced planners are very high compared with what local government can pay. It is a real challenge.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q 44 But would you accept that cutting a planning department’s budget is a false economy?

Martin Tett: I want to echo one thing, to put it in context. Remember that lots of authorities, particularly municipal boroughs, have responsibilities that also include social care for children, safeguarding adults and so on, and almost universally those statutory responsibilities are growing as a proportion of total council budgets, so councils are in a very difficult position. I understand your point, but we have to weigh that against some of the other responsibilities that councils have.

Sir Steve Bullock: I was going to say exactly the same thing. The funding stream that goes into the planning department comes out of the same pot as social care, libraries, youth services and so on.

[The Chair]

We are drifting slightly wide of the Bill itself.

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Hayes]

Q 64 Some of the housing associations that recently appeared before the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government indicated that they thought the likely impact of this Bill would be fewer homes delivered by housing associations for social and other forms of affordable rent. I wanted to ask both of you, first, what you think the net impact of the Bill will be on housing associations’ delivery of social and other affordable forms of homes for rent and, secondly, whether you fear developers deserting housing associations in favour of delivering starter homes themselves?

Sinéad Butters: Our members have raised significant concerns about the potential erosion of social rented housing as a result of a combination of impacts. That combination includes the pay-to-stay option, the starter homes initiative and, depending on what is replaced under right to buy, the erosion of social housing under right to buy. What I would like to make absolutely clear is that our members collaborated with the Government on the home ownership options and see home ownership as one part of something—it is not “either/or”, it is an “and” for our members.

The impact on the future for social rented housing prompts the question, where will the poorest live? If there is nowhere for poor people to live in future, one might imagine that poverty is decreasing, yet I do not see that. It is a very real question. We would ask for the flexibility to have local solutions in the areas where we work closely with local authorities to determine what is needed in that area, including a range of social rented housing, home ownership options, market rent and sale. Our members would embrace the opportunity to work locally to make sure that what the community needs is what the community gets.

David Orr: The Bill itself is a relatively small part of a combined package. If we are going to build a whole lot of new homes we need land first and foremost. Anything that this Bill can do to help to release land for new home building would be helpful. Like Sinéad, I have anxieties about the competing priorities in the space where section 106 presently operates. It has been a useful mechanism for delivering affordable homes for rent and for shared ownership, and a useful mechanism for volume developers to front-end the cash for their developments. If all these things are squeezed out by starter homes, the impact is likely to be a reduction in the overall supply. If we are able, as Sinéad has said, to have an environment where we see significant growth in new home building across all tenures—some for market sale, market rent, social rent, shared ownership, starter homes—that is where we need to be. We need to have this mixed-tenure package. The new homes that we build need to be across all tenures.

With regard specifically to the ability to provide social rent, I think that the Government have made it clear that they do not consider social rent to be their top priority. It remains the top priority for housing associations. The spending review will obviously be an important component, depending on what money, if any, is available to support that. Right to buy, certainly in some markets, has the potential to liberate assets that would then be turned to cash and could be used to build social rented homes. That will vary according to the different markets in different parts of the country. There is a range of factors that will influence this, but I am anxious about starter homes appearing in the section 106 space and crowding everything else out.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q 65 I also sat through the Select Committee hearing, and listened to the evidence from the housing associations. I took the absolutely opposite view, so perhaps we should review the evidence together.

In an article on your website, Mr Orr, under the heading, “More homes to rent (and buy)”, you state that,

“our offer to the government will see an increase in the number of…homes built, which has the potential to ease pressure in all parts of the market, including the rental market.”

Do you still stand by that in the overall context of this agreement?

David Orr: I completely stand by that being the offer that housing associations want to be able to deliver. We published a document called “An ambition to deliver” and I commend it to you, because it is a very strong statement of ambition about getting—at some point in the future—to a position where we are able to build perhaps 120,000 homes a year, half for sale and half for rent, half market value and half subsidised. That is exactly that: making a contribution across all parts of the market. We are completely committed to doing that. Ideally we would want to be working with Government—whichever Government—and local government to work in partnership to deliver that kind of package.

The most fundamental thing that will make a difference is access to land, both publicly and privately owned land. If you look at the pattern of provision, we have failed dismally to build the number of new homes that we need, particularly in rural England, and part of the reason is that we just say, “There’s no land.” We have kind of given up. We need to stop giving up because there is plenty of land that we could build on. Measures that speed up planning are helpful. Measures that give priority to the expectation of delivery of new homes are helpful. Accessing land is the thing without which the rest will not really work.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q 66 Can you see measures in the Bill that will speed up the planning process?

David Orr: I see measures that have the potential to speed up the planning process.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

Q 67 At the moment, it seems as if homes sold under the right to buy will not have to be replaced in the same area. Do you have any concerns that that might lead to further regional disparities in the amount of affordable accommodation available? Would you like to see an amendment that would ensure that they are replaced in the same area?

Sinéad Butters: Our members certainly would. They are concerned about like for like replacements in the same geographical areas. The overriding factor is that local authorities working with their housing association partners can decide on what is appropriate for that community and have the flexibility to apply that. Some of the provisions in the Bill, such as the pay-to-stay provisions, are blunt instruments applied nationally which do not take account of local factors.

We would like to see that. Our members would be keen to ensure that those strong relations with local authorities in helping meeting housing need are maintained.

David Orr: I think this is a matter for individual housing associations and the conversations they have with local government partners and others. If, in any given local authority area, housing associations sell under the right to buy, I think how they are replaced is a matter for them in discussion with their local authority partners. I am not keen to impose unnecessary restrictions. It seems to me that we are under a great deal of pressure. There is much less public money going into new housing and we need to retain as much flexibility as we can. We have to look at the objectives and the pattern of behaviour of housing associations across the country. They mainly want to invest in the areas that they work in. That is what they care about, right across the country. I am anxious that we are creating a debate that will not turn into anything in real life because, in practice, if people sell they will want to try to replace in those areas where they can.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Thomas]

Q 79 Do you think that the rest of the Bill will help to increase the supply of co-operative housing, or will it just leave it as a tiny fraction of the housing stock?

David Orr: I think it is likely to be relatively marginal.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q 80 Ms Butters, I think you referred to the provisions under clause 74 on high-income social tenants as a blunt instrument, yet you conceded that there is provision to charge a proportion of market rent—I think you made some cursory reference to the taper. Is that not proof that the clause is not a blunt instrument?

Sinéad Butters: For us it is about the freedom and flexibility to set our own rents—decisions for our local areas, made by our boards, working with our communities and our local authority partners. I can understand that the taper has been set to mitigate some of the negative impact of applying that blunt instrument, in terms of an immediate move to market rents from social or affordable rents; however, that would not be my answer. My recommendation would be locally set rents, determined by local areas, with boards and local authority partners. We would still see the potential for those choices about higher-income tenants, but they would be based on real evidence and real income data and analysis, not on a judgment about what level is set nationally.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q 81 But the principle is that it is inappropriate for taxpayers to subsidise someone who can live in market-value housing. Do you accept that principle?

Sinéad Butters: Yes. Absolutely.

[Teresa Pearce]

Q 82 Mr Orr, on the voluntary deal, your organisation and the G15 will work very closely. It is my understanding that the G15 opposes the forced sale of vacant high-value council homes. Is that the position of the National Housing Federation?

David Orr: Just to be clear, the G15 are all members of the National Housing Federation, so we are all part of the same group, as is PlaceShapers. The deal that we have done with the Government is one that says that if the Government provide funding for a discount we will organise the sales. It is the job of the Government, under that voluntary arrangement, to find the finances to fund that. We have never proposed the sale of high-value council stock as a means of paying for it—that is a proposal that came from the Government—and we have not and will not endorse the proposal.