Crown Post Offices: Franchising

Debate between Kelly Tolhurst and Ian Murray

Thursday 10th January 2019 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kelly Tolhurst)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I congratulate the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) on securing this important debate. Although I am one of only a few Tories in the room, I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. I recognise their passion as well as the importance that post offices represent to MPs.

As a constituency MP, I understand the valuable role of the post office for me and for my constituents. Post offices play a vital role at the heart of our communities and are an essential part of our villages, towns and cities, so the future direction of the Post Office is important not only to the Government, but to all our constituencies.

The festive season has just passed, when the dedication of Post Office staff across the country was shown. They come out in force to help our constituents and deliver the parcels and letters destined for our loved ones. I thank the Post Office and Royal Mail staff for the efforts they have put in over recent months. It is estimated that more than 60 million customers visited post office branches in the run-up to Christmas, and I want to mention one small rural post office in Herefordshire that opened its doors this year to host Christmas dinner for those who would otherwise have been alone. That highlights the social value of post offices, not only within our high streets, but beyond.

To repeat what I indicated in November’s debate on post office franchising, this Government value and recognise the economic and social importance of post offices to people, communities and businesses across the UK. That is why we made a commitment in our manifesto to safeguard the post office network and support the provision of rural services.

[Ian Murray]

On the manifesto commitment to protect post offices, is it still Conservative party policy to make the post office the front office of Government?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

What is definitely Government policy is to make sure that we have a network of post offices that offer a wide range of services to our constituents, and that that is sustainable into the future. Franchising is not a closure programme. It is a way to secure better sustainability for the future of our post offices, and it is a good thing that Post Office is working with high street retailers to recognise that.

The performance of the Post Office over the past decade shows that the network is at its most stable in a generation. Between 2010 and 2018 we provided nearly £2 billion to maintain and invest in the national network of at least 11,500 post offices.

Draft Accounts and Reports (Amendment) (EU Exit) REgulations 2018

Debate between Kelly Tolhurst and Ian Murray

Wednesday 12th December 2018 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kelly Tolhurst)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Accounts and Reports (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. Since the UK’s 2016 referendum decision to leave the EU, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has undertaken a significant amount of work on the withdrawal negotiations, preparing for a range of potential outcomes. We have been working, and must continue to work, to prepare for a no deal scenario.

The regulations aim to address failures of retained EU law to operate effectively, as well as other deficiencies arising from the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union, in the field of accounts and reports of UK corporate bodies. The law in the UK on the preparation and filing of accounts and reports for corporate bodies is compliant with the EU accounting directive. There is also a directly applicable EU regulation that relates to the preparation of accounts in accordance with international accounting standards—the so-called IAS regulation. Both the accounting directive and the IAS regulation apply throughout the European economic area. The Department intends to introduce a separate statutory instrument that will address how we intend to deal with the deficiencies presented by the IAS regulation after the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.

The fundamental elements of the current companies’ accounts and reports legislation will remain the same after exit. However, that legislation still needs to be amended to ensure that it works effectively once the UK has left the EU. An important component of the accounting directive, and therefore the UK’s company law, relates to reciprocal arrangements for company group structures—for example, exemptions permitted to businesses from producing consolidated accounts if the parent is registered anywhere in the EEA and is producing consolidated accounts that are compliant with EU law. In the absence of a negotiated agreement regarding the economic relationship between the UK and the EU, it would be inappropriate to continue with preferential treatment for EEA entities, or UK entities with EEA parents.

The statutory instrument will mean that businesses registered in EEA states will be treated in the same way as those from third countries. UK businesses with EEA parents will therefore no longer benefit from the exemption from having to produce consolidated accounts because their EEA parent company produces consolidated accounts. However, UK businesses with parent entities registered in the UK will not be affected by the changes.

The regulations do not create new criminal offences. However, the scope of the pre-existing criminal offences will be extended, in that some companies that previously benefited from an exemption will no longer do so. They will be exposed to the possibility of committing a criminal offence in a way that they were not before. Also, some businesses with links to the EEA will now fall within the scope of existing criminal offences in the UK for failure to file accounts and reports. For example, dormant companies with parent entities listed in the EEA will no longer be exempt from preparing and filing accounts with Companies House. Failure to do so would mean that they would be committing an offence, and they would be liable to incur fines and penalties. That is consistent with the approach for similar companies with parents outside the EEA.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

Will the Minister tell the Committee whether she anticipates, or has anticipated, more parent companies moving to the EEA from the UK as a result of the UK leaving the European Union?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I do not have any indication of the number of companies that have stated that they would leave the UK after EU exit.

The accounting directive sets out the requirements for businesses to report payments to Governments worldwide relating to the extraction of natural resources by way of logging and mining. Alongside that, it provides a power for the Commission to grant equivalence to third countries for their systems of reporting payments to Governments regarding logging and mining activities. This statutory instrument transfers that power to the Secretary of State.

The Government have carried out a de minimis impact assessment of the regulations, because the overall costs to business were expected to be small. That confirmed that the impact on business would be minimal and that the resulting costs would be in relation to the company’s size. There is a small chance that certain second-order impacts may arise from changes to one of the exemptions. Currently, the ability to switch between accountancy frameworks—the requirements for the preparation of companies’ annual accounts—is limited to once every five years, unless the company de-lists from any regulated market in the EEA. The change made by this statutory instrument will mean that a company can only satisfy that condition by de-listing from the UK market.

Although we think the amendment is a minor one, it may provide an incentive for companies to de-list from the UK markets. Companies list their securities on capital markets primarily to access a larger capital and investor base—for example, because they are considering growing their businesses. They do not take de-listing decisions lightly. Given the scale of the changes introduced by this statutory instrument, it is very unlikely that they would do so to try to circumvent the reporting requirements.

The Government have worked closely with business and regulatory bodies to ensure that regulations achieve continuity wherever possible, while addressing the deficiencies arising from the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. My officials have benefited from the wisdom of our many stakeholders, and the statutory instrument incorporates their views. In the event that the UK leaves the EU without an agreement, the regulations will be critical in ensuring that UK accounting law continues to provide transparency and certainty to investors. The regulations will also ensure that companies operating in the UK have clear guidance for preparing and filing their accounts. I commend the regulations to the Committee, and I ask the Committee to support and accept them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Member for Sefton Central for his usual thorough reading of the statutory instrument and preparation for the debate. I want to finish by reminding the Committee that the SI is being brought forward for a no deal scenario. As a Government, we are still working towards a deal, and that is what we hope we will have as we leave the European Union.

[Ian Murray]

I would hate to get into a debate about Brexit, because I am sure you would call me out of order, Mr Davies, but would it not be much better for the Government to rule out a no deal scenario? We could then spend most of our time in the House dealing with what we need to deal with, rather than preparing for no deal.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Actually, I think it is quite right that as a Government we are preparing for no deal, and we will continue to do so. That is why I am here presenting a statutory instrument—so that in the event of no deal we will be able to give business confidence and clarity on what the outcome will be, whether it is liked or not, in a no deal scenario.

I will try to answer some of the questions that the hon. Member for Sefton Central posed about the statutory instrument. He asked about the total number of companies that might be affected. There are approximately 3.8 million active companies on the UK register as it stands, and 98.5% of them happen to be micro or small businesses. There are approximately 35,000 medium-sized businesses and 20,000 large entities on the register. We have assessed that fewer than 20,000 companies will be affected by the statutory instrument, with a range of sizes and set-ups.

I was asked what assessment we have made of de-listing. As I have outlined, we did not carry out a full assessment, because we established from the data we have that the burden and cost to business will be below £5 million. The burden on business will relate to the potential costs of having to file accounts and make preparations, where they had been exempt. Obviously, that is a small cost to a limited number of organisations.

Obviously the de-listing is very difficult to assess. It is very difficult to assess how many companies would take the decision to leave the UK based in a no deal scenario. As I have said, as a Minister I have not been made aware of any companies that have registered an interest in leaving the UK, based on the changes that we are considering. We estimate that the number of organisations that might decide to de-list would be very small, but it is a very difficult number to assess.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, because I have just outlined it, we are talking about approximately 20,000 businesses that would be affected, out of the current 3.8 million businesses that are registered in the UK. That is a small number of businesses in relation to the total number of registered companies. However, we are talking about the cost, and the burden will relate to the potential extra costs in relation to accounting and reporting.

We must remember that, as Members will have read and as I have mentioned, dormant companies for example have been exempt. They will no longer be exempt, so there will be a cost to that under the regulations in a no deal situation.

[Ian Murray]

To follow on from my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central, there is an impact assessment that says that the cost to business is negligible, but will the Minister’s Department be producing an impact assessment of the cumulative cost to business of all the SIs that are going through in preparation for a no-deal Brexit, and when will we see it?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. We are assessing the impact as a Department in all ways, and we are doing that informally. We do it through working with stakeholders. These SIs are not just dreamed up. As I said in response to an earlier question, we have consulted our officials and worked with stakeholders. We have spoken to auditors and accountants—the people who will be responsible for imparting this information to the companies they work for and for understanding the true cost to business—so we are always assessing the impact of everything we do. Especially as a business Minister, one of my priorities is to make sure that when we do things around business, we reduce the burden when we can. The actual answer is that we need to prepare for scenarios, and in doing this we are aware of the potential outcomes and risks, which would affect 20,000 businesses.

[Ian Murray]

Will the Minister give way?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Once more on this.

[Ian Murray]

The Minister is being incredibly generous, and I am grateful to the Chair for indulging me on this point, but it is incredibly important. The Minister quite rightly says that the Government have not just dreamed these SIs up. Of course they have not, because there is a process that has to be run through if the Government decide that they wish to go down the route of a no deal Brexit. What is the cumulative effect on business of all the SIs that are currently before her Department? They have not been dreamed up, but they are there, they are measurable, and they can be added together to show the impact of the SIs that are currently on the table and their cost to business.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I will try again to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question. There is no policy change in this SI: it is correcting deficiencies in the retained EU law. If he is asking about the impact of no deal, I refer him to the work that has already been done by Government on the impact of a no deal scenario versus a deal scenario, rather than these individual statutory instruments. As he will know, there are a number of statutory instruments across all Departments that may well affect businesses in different ways, which do not come under my responsibilities as a junior Minister in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I give way.

[Ian Murray]

It is called scrutiny.

[Bill Esterson]

I think my hon. Friend has anticipated my question. Will the Minister explain what the scrutiny process will be for the Secretary of State’s decision making in the event of no deal?