Draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2018 Draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2018

Kelly Tolhurst Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2019 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kelly Tolhurst)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, the draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2018 and the draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2018.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans. The draft statutory instruments were laid before the House on 14 January 2019 and on 31 October 2018 respectively. They are part of a package of measures that the Government have promised to introduce to make sure that we are prepared in the event that we leave the EU without a deal. It is important to remember throughout the debate that the changes will not be needed if a deal is secured.

The statutory instruments under consideration amend employment law to reflect the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. New directives agreed in the EU are transposed into UK law. The act of the UK leaving the EU therefore does not remove those rights, which are already in UK law. By passing the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, Parliament gave the Government the ability to ensure that necessary changes can be made to keep the statute book in proper working order.

I can confirm that the SIs before the Committee make only minor changes to language to ensure that existing regulations will reflect the fact that the UK is no longer a member of the EU. Those changes are necessary to ensure that the statute book is accurate and clear. It is important that businesses, employees and citizens have clarity regarding their rights and responsibilities.

During the passage of the 2018 Act, some hon. Members raised concerns about the potential for the Government to use some of the powers granted by that Act to make more fundamental changes. I assure the Committee that the Government are not making any changes to employment rights or employment policy through these regulations. The Prime Minister, the Business Secretary and many other colleagues have been clear that there will be no roll-back on workers’ rights when we leave the EU.

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

Does the Minister not concede that, as a result of the regulations, in the event of no deal, employees and workers in the United Kingdom will not be able to set up a European works council?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

If the hon. Gentleman allows me to make some progress, I will come to that point. We should aim not to sensationalise the issue, but to provide clear answers to the public. It is our responsibility to be the guide during this unprecedented time.

The Committee will be aware of the programme of reforms that the Government are already implementing to strengthen workers’ rights and we are delivering on our commitments through the “Good Work Plan”. We do not need to be in the EU to have strong workers’ rights or to enhance them in the future. Indeed, we will continue to deliver the good work reforms after the UK has left the EU.

Far from being content with EU minimum standards, the UK has gone beyond them in a number of areas. Our maternity entitlements are nearly three times greater than the EU standard. In the UK, we offer 52 weeks of maternity leave, of which 39 weeks are with pay; the EU requires only 14 weeks of paid leave. We give fathers and partners the statutory right to paternity leave and pay—an entitlement that the EU is only now starting to consider. We allow eligible parents to share paid leave and thus caring responsibilities in the first year following birth or adoption; the EU does not provide for that right. We have given all employees with 26 weeks’ qualifying service a statutory right to request flexible working; EU law allows workers to make a request only if they are returning from parental leave. One of the EU’s own agencies, Eurofound, ranks the UK as the second best country in the EU for workplace well- being, behind only Sweden, and the best for workplace performance.

In our future outside the EU, the political declaration on our future relationship states that we will build on the withdrawal agreement commitment not to reduce our shared standards or regress from existing EU legislation. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in the House yesterday, we are prepared to commit to asking Parliament whether it wishes to follow suit whenever the EU changes its employment standards. I hope that that provides assurance to the Committee that the Government are absolutely committed to protecting and enhancing workers’ rights.

The statutory instruments are an important and necessary part of the work to protect rights in the event that we leave the EU without a deal. Of course I hope that the regulations will not need to come into effect, and that an agreement can be reached with the EU so they can be revoked.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Will the Minister explain why the Government initially thought that the regulations should be subject to the negative procedure and not debated at all? We are obviously pleased that the Government changed their mind when the European Statutory Instruments Committee asked for the change.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

The statutory instruments that were laid subject to the negative procedure, which was changed by that Committee, relate particularly to Northern Ireland. They were upgraded to be debated, so we have the opportunity to debate all four sets of regulations in Committee today.

Although I hope that the regulations will not need to come into effect, because I hope that we can reach an agreement, in the event of no deal it will be vital that they are enacted. Failure to pass these largely technical regulations would result in uncertainty about workers’ rights and employers’ obligations, which could lead to disruption for business and citizens and an increased risk of litigation, which is in no one’s interest.

Against that background, I will explain one set of provisions about which hon. Members may have concerns. The Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 make changes to the rules on European works councils. Businesses and trade unions in the UK value the opportunity for employee engagement and consultation that the councils provide, and the Government recognise and encourage those benefits. However, withdrawing from the EU without a deal will mean that the UK is no longer covered by EU rules on European works councils.

In that scenario, it would be for the EU to give UK workers the right to be represented on the councils. It is an unavoidable and unfortunate truth that there is no way for the UK unilaterally to ensure that workers in this country retain that right without a deal. There is also no way to replicate the European works council system only in the UK, as their purpose is to enable cross-border engagement. That requires the same rules in all countries, which requires a withdrawal agreement.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

The assertion that the UK cannot make those provisions is incorrect. In relation to financial services, for instance, the UK is unilaterally making provisions on payment services and hoping that EU member states will do the same. Is the Minister aware that what she is saying is incoherent and inconsistent with what is happening in other policy areas?

Is the Minister not concerned that we are, yet again, in Committee considering statutory instruments without impact assessments, which does not allow adequate scrutiny? I have raised the issue several times. Can she give an assurance that the next time she or her colleagues come before such a Committee, they will provide an impact assessment?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

All the regulations have had de minimis statements applied. Obviously, they have been cleared through the better regulation framework, because if the impact exceeded the de minimis threshold, full impact assessments would have been made. All regulations or SIs that we bring to the House will be looked at by the Department in a deep way to assess the impact.

The hon. Lady’s first point was on other regulations that may be passing through the House at the moment and that are not directly related to the draft instruments. It is clear that we are retaining EU law. The changes we are considering are mostly technical, apart from the changes to the particular area I am referring to at the moment. Rightly, we want to see co-operation and agreement in the future where it is necessary and achievable. That is why the Government are determined to deliver a deal, so that we can have those reciprocal agreements with other member states.

[Chris Stephens]

The Minister is being most generous in giving way. She will be aware that the European Parliament and European Commission are currently negotiating regulations for workers in the gig economy and for working parents that are far better and stronger than anything found in the UK Government’s “Good Work Plan”. Is the Minister saying to the Committee that if the European Parliament and European Commission agree those regulations, the UK Government will match them?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are debating an SI that will be enacted if we are in a no-deal situation on 29 March. As I have already outlined, whether we decide in a future no-deal situation to align our laws with the EU’s is a different matter, but I repeat: we have the “Good Work Plan” and we are going further. We are still a member of the European Union, so we still take part in those conversations happening in Europe.

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

I would like some clarity regarding the Minister’s answer to the hon. Member for Glasgow South West. Is it the Government’s policy to match future EU advancements in worker protection laws?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that we have been very clear that we will not roll back workers’ rights. In fact, we have made an express commitment to go further. As I outlined, we already go further than Europe in many ways. We have been feeding into the development of EU thinking on some of these policies, as some of the work we have been doing in the UK is particularly good. We are determined to continue on our path. Our ambition is that the UK continues to be a great place to work, with those protections continuing to be afforded to the people employed in this country.

Our domestic regime for employee engagement and consultation will remain in place, and we will encourage businesses to continue to allow UK workers to be represented on a voluntary basis in European works councils. We are retaining as many of the existing rules as we can to enable that. All existing protections for workers and for their representatives on European works councils—even those there voluntarily—will be maintained. Approving the draft regulations is the only way to ensure that workers involved in European works councils are protected if there is no deal. They deliver on our commitments.

Another area I am aware that Members may be concerned about is the changes being made to the TUPE regulations. In a dynamic economy such as the UK’s, there will inevitably be takeovers and mergers and contracts changing hands, which is good for the prosperity of our country; the best companies outdo the worst. We recognise that that must be combined with strong protection for the workers in those companies, for whom a change of employer may be a stressful and difficult experience. TUPE regulations are central to protecting workers from suffering as a result of being transferred.

The draft regulations are an important part of EU-derived employment law, which we have committed to retain. In the UK, we have gone further than required under EU laws and we have extended these important protections to other groups of workers. Not only will we retain the elements from the EU, but we commit to retaining the gold-plating. Only by making the changes contained in the draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations can we make sure that workers remain entitled to these protections. The changes are necessary to ensure that the Government retain our current powers to extend the protection provided by TUPE to other groups of workers. These powers have been used to protect workers where there is a change of service provider that is not also a business transfer—a situation that would not be covered by EU rules. That crucial gap can include situations where a business outsources or contracts out a service. The changes are technical, but it is important that I set Members’ minds at ease.

The current powers are defined with reference to the EU directive, which applies to the UK as a member state. When the UK is no longer a member state, if there is no deal the reference will no longer make sense, so the reference must be changed so that it does not rely on EU law. Without that change, the Government could not use the power or use this tool for protecting workers in future.

I have highlighted these areas as the other changes in the SIs are purely technical, made to reflect the fact that the UK will no longer be a member of the EU. I assure the Committee that the amendments made through these SIs deliver on our workers’ rights commitments, thus providing clarity to employers, workers and businesses, and confidence that the Government are prepared for a no-deal scenario.

[Ms Eagle]

Can the Minister explain to the Committee why the Government felt it necessary to make some of these changes retrospective and bring them into being before we have left the European Union, even though these SIs are meant to be a series of so-called no-deal SIs?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

In the event of a deal situation, the SIs that have been laid and passed can be revoked, referred, or brought to a following end-date, so there is a range of options on the table in a deal situation. We have been passing the no-deal SIs, particularly those before the Committee today, to make sure that we are ready if we leave the European Union on 29 March without a deal. It is imperative that we have regulations in place to ensure that we have a functioning statute book and are able to operate in a correct way.

[Ms Eagle]

I thank the Minister for giving way again. Some of the provisions in these statutory instruments actually came into force on 1 December 2018. Why is that?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I do not know the particular SIs that the hon. Lady is referring to, so I cannot comment on them. All I am commenting on are the ones that I have in front of me today.

[Ms Eagle]

Some provisions in the regulations that are scheduled to come into force came into force at the beginning of last December. Will the Minister explain why it was felt necessary to bring them into force well ahead of our leaving the European Union and then apply them retrospectively, which is not a good principle of law?

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As I have already outlined to the hon. Lady, the SIs that she is–

[Ms Eagle]

The notes are coming. [Laughter.]

[Kelly Tolhurst]

That may be, but the measures that she is referring to have not been highlighted. I am not aware of the ones that the hon. Lady is referring to. I am referring to the SI that is in front of me today.

[Ms Eagle]

If the Minister cannot give us the explanation I seek now, will she undertake to provide it in writing to all members of the Committee?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I will happily write to the Committee if the hon. Lady outlines to me the SIs that became active on 1 December 2018, so that I can give her and the rest of the Committee further clarification on that.

It would be unacceptable not to provide clarity to businesses and workers, and I encourage the Committee to approve the instruments. I commend them to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate. As the Minister responsible, I am well aware how passionate Members are about the subject, and not just those on the Opposition Benches. Despite what has been said, there is strong support for these regulations on the Government Benches.

I am extremely sad that the Opposition will be voting against this SI. I remind the Committee that it deals with a no-deal scenario and would come into force only if we leave the European Union on 29 March without a deal. It ensures that our statute book is in working order. By passing it today, we are effectively guaranteeing workers’ rights. Voting against it puts workers’ rights in jeopardy in the event of a no-deal scenario.

I will address some of the points that have been made. We are lucky that a number of experienced and well-respected Members have taken part in the debate. As a Minister and a relatively new Member, I welcome the experience and comments of Members who have been around far longer than I have. I was elected as a Conservative Member in 2015, but some of the comments I heard this afternoon, about my party’s position on workers and its aspirations for their future in our economy, were contrary to what my party stands for.

The Prime Minister invited Matthew Taylor to undertake his review—it was our Prime Minister who brought that forward—and we will be implementing the majority of its recommendations, as published in our “Good Work Plan”. That plan will be the biggest reform of workers’ rights in a generation—that is the reality—and a Conservative Government will bring it forward. I respect the position of hon. Members who say that they do not feel that they have had clear assurances from the Prime Minister that in a deal situation we will not row back on workers’ rights, but the fact of the matter is that the Prime Minister has been clear. Not only have we announced the “Good Work Plan”, but we have already laid three SIs that further protect workers’ rights.

[Chris Stephens]

If the Minister wants to enhance and strengthen workers’ rights, the Government are welcome to support my Workers (Definition and Rights) Bill, which I can assure her is a beautifully written piece of legislation that deals with some of the issues. Does she not appreciate the criticism that the EU is currently negotiating regulations that give better and stronger workers’ rights than those set out in the “Good Work Plan”? If the EU pushes those through, can she give us an assurance that the UK Government will adopt the regulations?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Let me be clear: the reality is that we are committed to going further on workers’ rights, as has been shown through our publication of the “Good Work Plan” and the laying of SIs. We are going further than any Conservative Government have, and I am very proud of that. I am extremely proud to be part of a Government who have put workers’ rights at the top of their agenda, particularly in my Department.

[Justin Madders]

Was the Minister proud when the High Court declared employment tribunal fees illegal?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I am proud that this Government look at and deal with the issues that arise, and then look for ways of resolving them, which is exactly what we are doing with our “Good Work Plan” and the SIs that have already been laid. I understand the concerns of Opposition Members, but I am pleased to be extremely clear in saying that we are committed to maintaining workers’ rights and to going as far as we can. We talked about European Union committees and the work currently going on. We are still involved in those negotiations, are feeding into those negotiations and are helping the EU to formulate recommendations. The legislation that we are bringing forward will ensure that they are protected and will continue to be protected.

[Rushanara Ali]

Will the Minister give way?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I would like to finish my points and then get on to answering some of the questions I have been asked.

I was pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay made his contribution. He was absolutely right, as was my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham. I thank them for making their points. The accusations that the Opposition have levelled at our party and our Government this afternoon characterise a party that I did not join and I am not part of; they illustrate something that I do not think is the reality. I am the Minister responsible, and it is not what I think, so there we go. [Interruption.]

[The Chair]

Order. I think that the Minister is being heckled by her own side. Can we please have a bit of calm, so that she can focus on her response?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Thank you, Mr Evan; I am so very lucky to have you in the Chair this afternoon.

I thank hon. Members for their contributions. I reiterate that these regulations are for a no-deal situation. The Government are still determined to get a withdrawal deal. I hope that the Opposition will be willing and open-minded, and will want to work with the Prime Minister to ensure that happens, to get to a position where they will support a deal so that the regulations do not have to come into force in a no-deal situation.

I will try to answer the questions I have been asked, but I am more than happy to write to hon. Members if I do not respond to all of them. Hon. Members suggested that we are not retaining workers’ rights in these regulations. The regulations are mainly technical; they introduce technical changes to ensure that current rights are retained and that we operate from a clear statute book. As hon. Members know, there was no provision in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 for us to make changes in policy. There was an element of the Act that enabled us to bring forward legislation to retain EU law and make modifications so that we would have a clear statute book.

The hon. Members for Wallasey and for Ellesmere Port and Neston raised the question of enacting such legislation. It is true that those elements were intended to correct redundant EU references, which is why they would come into force earlier. They are not a consequence of the UK leaving the EU; they would change out-of-date references in the legislation. I hope that my explanation has answered the hon. Lady’s question on that—the instrument does not actually have any relation to the UK leaving the EU.

[Justin Madders]

I am grateful to the Minister for explaining why there are different dates, but can she explain why some of them are retrospective?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As I have outlined, it is because of out-of-date references to EU regulations in the legislation, which will be changed. On European works councils, it is true that the European Union could allow us to have a reciprocal agreement even in a no-deal situation. That could happen, but obviously we cannot guarantee that the EU will allow it. As it stands, the current laws and protections afforded to representatives on those councils and to employees will be retained. It will affect new works councils, but that might be resolved in a deal situation. In a no-deal situation, it does not stop the fact that there might be cross-border co-operation and reciprocal agreement. I can give hon. Members some comfort that, as I have outlined, anything that would allow us to continue in the same way and ensure that workers’ rights are protected would be a good thing.

[Bob Stewart]

Can I get this absolutely right? We are talking about taking employment rights from the European Union and putting them into UK law. Effectively, we are changing as little as possible, so that things do not change for workers. That is what the Conservative party would like to happen.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I assure my hon. Friend that he is correct; that is exactly what we are doing. Failure to pass this no-deal SI would put workers’ rights in jeopardy. This SI would allow us to protect those rights.

[Chris Stephens]

I thank the Minister for that explanation, but paragraph 7.6 of the explanatory memorandum states something different, namely that

“the SI amends the TICE Regulations 1999 so that no new requests to set up a European Works Council or information and consultation procedure can be made.”

Therefore, the statutory instrument actually weakens workers’ rights. Deal or no deal, is it the Government’s position that UK workers will have access to a European works council where it applies?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As I have already said, because we will no longer be a member of the European Union, it will be up to the European Union to decide whether it gives us reciprocal abilities to continue down that path. There are existing rules governing consultation for businesses and employers. There is already a UK system. I like to think that what I said about opportunities for us to have reciprocal rights was clear, but the SIs relate to a no-deal situation, and I was very clear in my opening speech that in such a situation some things would be a reality and would not necessarily be in our control.

It was suggested that we should not use the wording “TUPE-like”. We decided to use that wording to maintain the current scope of the powers.

The SIs make no change to the working time directive. It will not be scrapped or lost. That is not what the SIs are intended to do. As I tried to make clear, in a no-deal situation, these SIs would not all of a sudden roll back or strip workers’ rights. That is not what they are about; they are about protecting the situation as it stands. That is why I feel very strongly about them. There will not be a vacuum in workers’ rights in a no-deal situation, because the powers effected by the SIs will protect the status quo. In a no-deal situation, those rights will not suddenly disappear. There will not be a race to the bottom. The Government have no intention of that.

We need a statute book that is ready to protect workers and give businesses, workers and employers all the clarity they need if we exit the European Union without a deal on 29 March. I hope the Committee recognises that these important pieces of legislation provide such clarity, and that failing to do so could jeopardise the rights of workers. I do not believe the UK workforce would be happy if it was unclear about what would happen in a no-deal situation.

I absolutely accept the comments made today about the Government’s commitment to securing workers’ rights, and wanting to go further. I am sorry that the Prime Minister’s word has not been taken completely at face value, because I fundamentally believe that what she has said is the case.

As I have already outlined, we have submitted the three SIs dealing with, among other things, the repeal of the Swedish derogation, and fairer holiday pay. Obviously, there is legislation to come. In a deal situation, or even a no-deal situation, we are intent on going further and making sure that workers in this country are protected. That also means working with and reacting to businesses and the marketplace. When things change, a responsible Government will look at the challenges and find ways to resolve some of the issues that may affect the workforce. I firmly believe that the Government are trying with absolute focus to do that.

The Government are complying with our duty to ensure that the UK is prepared for every outcome, whatever happens in the EU negotiations, and not to roll back workers’ rights. I therefore hope the Committee will approve the regulations.

[The Chair]

May I explain the process to the Committee? I shall put the first question and if the Committee wants a Division, that will happen. Each statutory instrument will then be taken individually. It will be up to the Committee whether to divide, but they will be taken separately. For the three statutory instruments that have not yet been moved, the Clerk will read the title before I request the Minister to move them formally.

Question put.