Draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2018 Draft Employment Rights (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2018

Chris Stephens Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2019 General Committees

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

Does the Minister not concede that, as a result of the regulations, in the event of no deal, employees and workers in the United Kingdom will not be able to set up a European works council?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

If the hon. Gentleman allows me to make some progress, I will come to that point. We should aim not to sensationalise the issue, but to provide clear answers to the public. It is our responsibility to be the guide during this unprecedented time.

The Committee will be aware of the programme of reforms that the Government are already implementing to strengthen workers’ rights and we are delivering on our commitments through the “Good Work Plan”. We do not need to be in the EU to have strong workers’ rights or to enhance them in the future. Indeed, we will continue to deliver the good work reforms after the UK has left the EU.

Far from being content with EU minimum standards, the UK has gone beyond them in a number of areas. Our maternity entitlements are nearly three times greater than the EU standard. In the UK, we offer 52 weeks of maternity leave, of which 39 weeks are with pay; the EU requires only 14 weeks of paid leave. We give fathers and partners the statutory right to paternity leave and pay—an entitlement that the EU is only now starting to consider. We allow eligible parents to share paid leave and thus caring responsibilities in the first year following birth or adoption; the EU does not provide for that right. We have given all employees with 26 weeks’ qualifying service a statutory right to request flexible working; EU law allows workers to make a request only if they are returning from parental leave. One of the EU’s own agencies, Eurofound, ranks the UK as the second best country in the EU for workplace well- being, behind only Sweden, and the best for workplace performance.

In our future outside the EU, the political declaration on our future relationship states that we will build on the withdrawal agreement commitment not to reduce our shared standards or regress from existing EU legislation. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in the House yesterday, we are prepared to commit to asking Parliament whether it wishes to follow suit whenever the EU changes its employment standards. I hope that that provides assurance to the Committee that the Government are absolutely committed to protecting and enhancing workers’ rights.

The statutory instruments are an important and necessary part of the work to protect rights in the event that we leave the EU without a deal. Of course I hope that the regulations will not need to come into effect, and that an agreement can be reached with the EU so they can be revoked.

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[Chris Stephens]

The Minister is being most generous in giving way. She will be aware that the European Parliament and European Commission are currently negotiating regulations for workers in the gig economy and for working parents that are far better and stronger than anything found in the UK Government’s “Good Work Plan”. Is the Minister saying to the Committee that if the European Parliament and European Commission agree those regulations, the UK Government will match them?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are debating an SI that will be enacted if we are in a no-deal situation on 29 March. As I have already outlined, whether we decide in a future no-deal situation to align our laws with the EU’s is a different matter, but I repeat: we have the “Good Work Plan” and we are going further. We are still a member of the European Union, so we still take part in those conversations happening in Europe.

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[Chris Stephens]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Evans. We need to start from the moment the Government tried to sneak these measures through using the negative procedure when they tabled the regulations on 31 October 2018. I am astonished that that great bastion of democracy, the House of Lords, was the place to correct the Government’s disregard. If it were not for the concerns put by the Trades Union Congress, that is exactly what the Government would have done.

[Ms Eagle]

It is true that the House of Lords spotted that the regulations would better fit the affirmative procedure but, to cheer up the hon. Gentleman, so did the European Statutory Instruments Committee of the House of Commons, of which I am a member, when we had a look at the regulations. We also suggested to the Government that the regulations are not minor and should certainly be subject to fuller debate.

[Chris Stephens]

I am grateful for that clarification. I was previously a member of that Committee—I thought the Whip was punishing me for something—and that shows the Committee system plays an important role. The Minister needs to answer why these statutory instruments have different dates for different parts. For instance, 1 December has been mentioned; some mention exit day and some mention other dates. The Minister should clarify that. If there is no clarity on that matter, I do not see how the Committee can agree to these statutory instruments.

Although the Government have said that they want to keep workers’ rights, the clear concern is that what is happening in reality is a loss of guaranteed upgrades. A classic example of that, which I mentioned in my question to the Minister, is the regulations currently being negotiated between the European Parliament and the European Commission in respect of workers in the gig economy and working parents.

It is clear that, if there is no deal, UK workers will no longer be entitled to request the establishment of a European works council. That is important in many areas of the country. In the bus sector, for example, companies such as Arriva have workers across the European Union and in the UK. Arriva ran services in the west of Scotland before it pulled out, and its workers had to be offered jobs elsewhere in the European Union to continue their work.

The fact that UK workers will no longer have the opportunity to request the establishment of a European works council, in order to participate in discussions about company-wide issues with European colleagues, is very serious. Protections are clearly being weakened, because European law and the courts provide a protective backstop—I believe that phrase is in vogue—against EU workers’ rights law being weakened by future UK Governments.

That brings us to the issue of trust. The Prime Minister’s statement yesterday, and her answer to my question about what happens here if the European Union strengthens workers’ rights, mirrors what she said in her letter to the Leader of the Opposition: that there would be a vote in Parliament, and that the Government would not advocate matching those terms.

I asked that question of the Minister today, and I feel she did not guarantee that the Government would match those terms. Somehow it would be put to a vote, and workers across the UK would have to trust the Conservative party to enhance their workers’ rights— I do not think so.

I am sure the hon. Member for Wallasey will agree that those of us who were involved with the anti-trade union Act saw the real face of conservatism when it comes to workers’ rights and protections, and we remember the statements made in relation to workers’ rights by the great advocates of the leave campaign. The Secretary of State for International Trade said:

“It is too difficult to hire and fire”

people in the United Kingdom.

The reality is that these statutory instruments are badly drafted and offer no scope to keep United Kingdom law in line with EU law. As such, I will be voting against them.

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[Ms Eagle]

I am glad to have provoked the hon. Gentleman to get to his feet and make that fairly fantastical claim, when 60% of people in poverty are actually in work, and when we have seen a huge increase in the number of people on zero-hours contracts, or on contracts so flexible that they cannot put food on the table at the end of the week.

[Chris Stephens]

Does the hon. Lady agree that insecure work has exploded in the past nine years and that the reason we are so suspicious is that those who advocate leaving the European Union kept using the deregulation of workers’ rights as a vehicle to enhance their cause?

[Ms Eagle]

Absolutely. We all remember the horror with which the Thatcherites perceived the appearance of Monsieur Delors at the Trades Union Congress, when he actually said that there was a social justice aspect to the European Union and that, of course, if there is a free market in the EU, there also has to be cross-border workers’ rights. Anyone who looks at the record will know exactly what to expect from the deregulators who form the core of the Brextremist Members of the Government party. They are positively salivating at the chance to cut further people’s entitlements in the labour market. They have always hated the idea that there was a floor below which they could not take workers’ rights, even when they were in government.

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[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate. As the Minister responsible, I am well aware how passionate Members are about the subject, and not just those on the Opposition Benches. Despite what has been said, there is strong support for these regulations on the Government Benches.

I am extremely sad that the Opposition will be voting against this SI. I remind the Committee that it deals with a no-deal scenario and would come into force only if we leave the European Union on 29 March without a deal. It ensures that our statute book is in working order. By passing it today, we are effectively guaranteeing workers’ rights. Voting against it puts workers’ rights in jeopardy in the event of a no-deal scenario.

I will address some of the points that have been made. We are lucky that a number of experienced and well-respected Members have taken part in the debate. As a Minister and a relatively new Member, I welcome the experience and comments of Members who have been around far longer than I have. I was elected as a Conservative Member in 2015, but some of the comments I heard this afternoon, about my party’s position on workers and its aspirations for their future in our economy, were contrary to what my party stands for.

The Prime Minister invited Matthew Taylor to undertake his review—it was our Prime Minister who brought that forward—and we will be implementing the majority of its recommendations, as published in our “Good Work Plan”. That plan will be the biggest reform of workers’ rights in a generation—that is the reality—and a Conservative Government will bring it forward. I respect the position of hon. Members who say that they do not feel that they have had clear assurances from the Prime Minister that in a deal situation we will not row back on workers’ rights, but the fact of the matter is that the Prime Minister has been clear. Not only have we announced the “Good Work Plan”, but we have already laid three SIs that further protect workers’ rights.

[Chris Stephens]

If the Minister wants to enhance and strengthen workers’ rights, the Government are welcome to support my Workers (Definition and Rights) Bill, which I can assure her is a beautifully written piece of legislation that deals with some of the issues. Does she not appreciate the criticism that the EU is currently negotiating regulations that give better and stronger workers’ rights than those set out in the “Good Work Plan”? If the EU pushes those through, can she give us an assurance that the UK Government will adopt the regulations?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Let me be clear: the reality is that we are committed to going further on workers’ rights, as has been shown through our publication of the “Good Work Plan” and the laying of SIs. We are going further than any Conservative Government have, and I am very proud of that. I am extremely proud to be part of a Government who have put workers’ rights at the top of their agenda, particularly in my Department.

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[Kelly Tolhurst]

I assure my hon. Friend that he is correct; that is exactly what we are doing. Failure to pass this no-deal SI would put workers’ rights in jeopardy. This SI would allow us to protect those rights.

[Chris Stephens]

I thank the Minister for that explanation, but paragraph 7.6 of the explanatory memorandum states something different, namely that

“the SI amends the TICE Regulations 1999 so that no new requests to set up a European Works Council or information and consultation procedure can be made.”

Therefore, the statutory instrument actually weakens workers’ rights. Deal or no deal, is it the Government’s position that UK workers will have access to a European works council where it applies?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As I have already said, because we will no longer be a member of the European Union, it will be up to the European Union to decide whether it gives us reciprocal abilities to continue down that path. There are existing rules governing consultation for businesses and employers. There is already a UK system. I like to think that what I said about opportunities for us to have reciprocal rights was clear, but the SIs relate to a no-deal situation, and I was very clear in my opening speech that in such a situation some things would be a reality and would not necessarily be in our control.

It was suggested that we should not use the wording “TUPE-like”. We decided to use that wording to maintain the current scope of the powers.

The SIs make no change to the working time directive. It will not be scrapped or lost. That is not what the SIs are intended to do. As I tried to make clear, in a no-deal situation, these SIs would not all of a sudden roll back or strip workers’ rights. That is not what they are about; they are about protecting the situation as it stands. That is why I feel very strongly about them. There will not be a vacuum in workers’ rights in a no-deal situation, because the powers effected by the SIs will protect the status quo. In a no-deal situation, those rights will not suddenly disappear. There will not be a race to the bottom. The Government have no intention of that.

We need a statute book that is ready to protect workers and give businesses, workers and employers all the clarity they need if we exit the European Union without a deal on 29 March. I hope the Committee recognises that these important pieces of legislation provide such clarity, and that failing to do so could jeopardise the rights of workers. I do not believe the UK workforce would be happy if it was unclear about what would happen in a no-deal situation.

I absolutely accept the comments made today about the Government’s commitment to securing workers’ rights, and wanting to go further. I am sorry that the Prime Minister’s word has not been taken completely at face value, because I fundamentally believe that what she has said is the case.

As I have already outlined, we have submitted the three SIs dealing with, among other things, the repeal of the Swedish derogation, and fairer holiday pay. Obviously, there is legislation to come. In a deal situation, or even a no-deal situation, we are intent on going further and making sure that workers in this country are protected. That also means working with and reacting to businesses and the marketplace. When things change, a responsible Government will look at the challenges and find ways to resolve some of the issues that may affect the workforce. I firmly believe that the Government are trying with absolute focus to do that.

The Government are complying with our duty to ensure that the UK is prepared for every outcome, whatever happens in the EU negotiations, and not to roll back workers’ rights. I therefore hope the Committee will approve the regulations.