Baroness Hoey
Main Page: Baroness Hoey (Non-affiliated - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Baroness Hoey's debates with the Cabinet Office
(11 years ago)
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Mr Kennedy
I feel the spectre of Roy Jenkins with his hand on my shoulder as we speak. I say to the hon. Gentleman that in perhaps a more superficial, short-term, opportunistic political way, of which he is such an emblematic representative, one might well rejoice in the difficulties and internecine warfare that is reigniting within the ranks of British Conservatism on the European issue, but the truth is that what I was saying about Scotland applies equally to the United Kingdom’s relationship with the rest of Europe: it is extremely damaging for British interests that the British Conservative party is not anchored more in the mainstream. We have been seeing that since its crazy decision to take itself off into a rather loopy set-up within the European Parliament. That may provide some of us with a good opportunity to poke fun at the Conservatives, but it also means that the British voice and presence has been lost on more significant Committees and in more significant positions within the workings of the European Parliament, as my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister knows far better than I do from his direct experience during his days as an MEP. I therefore think a slightly more, perhaps not high-minded, but at least practical analysis of the current difficulties in that regard is pertinent, because I really do think that it is damaging our long-term national interests.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Member and has been involved in the European issue for many years. He has been a Member of this House going back to the time of Maastricht, as many of us have. Does he now regret that he pushed so hard for us to join the euro, and is he pleased that his party was wrong on that?
Mr Kennedy
I have said before that I was wrong about that, although I would have put the issue of the single currency to a referendum. I criticised Tony Blair because he missed an opportunity early in his premiership, but as for decisions later on, I think that history has proved him more correct than those of us who were urging a different course of action—although the ultimate back-stop would have been the public through a referendum.
Keith Vaz
We could have our picture taken with the band.
Let us move on to the serious issues of the Gracious Speech. It is right that, as well as commenting on the proposals that were in the speech, we should refer to those that were not. I join the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) in commending the work of our troops abroad, especially in Afghanistan. I was disappointed, however, that the Prime Minister did not make a definitive statement about the position of Afghan interpreters. Many of them have served with our troops loyally and with dedication, but as yet they do not know whether they will be given sanctuary in this country. They will face enormous difficulties if they remain in Afghanistan.
I was also disappointed not to hear more about the summit on Somalia that the Prime Minister chaired yesterday. Bearing in mind that Somalia and Yemen are both countries of interest for the United Kingdom, the support given to Somalia by the Prime Minister and others at yesterday’s summit was similar to that given to Yemen four years ago. Sadly, half the money pledged to the Yemeni Government has still not materialised, even though we all say that we support that country. I hope that when we debate other aspects of the Gracious Speech—perhaps in the foreign affairs debate—we will have a chance to explore those points.
I want to concentrate on three aspects, the first being the immigration proposals. I understand that there is no Bill as yet and that immigration policy will be consulted on for several months. It will be some time, therefore, before we know where the Government stand on a number of the issues they have raised.
I welcome decisions taken in the past few weeks, such as that to abolish the UK Border Agency, which the Home Secretary described as “closed, secretive and defensive”, and the new leadership she has put in place at the immigration and nationality directorate, starting with the permanent secretary, Mark Sedwill, and the new head of immigration and visas, Sarah Rapson, whom I met a couple of weeks ago in Croydon. Now that the UKBA has been abolished and returned to the mother ship of the Home Office, there is a big opportunity at last to get an organisation that is fit for purpose, so that Members who write to it about immigration cases actually receive replies from Ministers or officials, and not the standard letter saying, “This case is part of a backlog,” which, of course, currently stands at 325,000—about the size of the population of Iceland.
It would be great if the administrative changes result in real change to immigration administration before the new Bill is introduced. As the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said, there is a tendency to legislate in the hope that it will solve the problem, but if we do not have the right people implementing the policies, that is never the correct thing to do.
I hope that the immigration legislation will deal with illegal migration. In particular, I hope that the allegations database will be put on a statutory footing. After all, the Prime Minister said on 10 October 2011:
“I want everyone in the country to help…by reporting suspected illegal immigrants”.
People took him at his word. The latest figures show that between July and September of last year, 28,243 people made allegations of illegal migration to this country. However, there have been only 561 arrests because of those 28,243 allegations and the Home Office does not have the figures on how many people have been removed. It is all very well asking people to report illegal migrants and having the political will to remove them, but if people are not told what is happening to those whom they have made allegations about, the system will not work. I therefore hope that the Bill will include something about the need to tackle illegal migration.
Let us move on to Romanian and Bulgarian migration. I am glad that the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, the former Minister for Immigration, is here because he gave a speech on 21 October 2008 in which he said that one of the greatest failures of the last Government was the failure to predict the consequences of enlargement in 2004. That is exactly the problem. The failure to predict is the real issue with Romanian and Bulgarian migration.
Frankly, since we have signed the treaties, it is not possible to do anything about the number of Romanian and Bulgarian people who will come here. What the Government can do is to ensure that we have sufficient research and analysis to know approximately what the number will be. That is possible to predict, even though Ministers have said before the Home Affairs Committee that they do not regard the estimates thus far as being accurate. Migration Watch has estimated that 70,000 people will come every year for the next few years. The Romanian and Bulgarian ambassadors have put the figure at between 10,000 and 25,000. Estimates will continue to be made unless there is proper research and analysis of what will happen. I urge the Government to take action and commission that research. If we know approximately what the numbers will be, the changes that need to be made to domestic policy can be made rather quicker.
Kate Hoey
My right hon. Friend is giving his usual professional view of this matter and I am glad that he takes such a huge interest in it. Does he agree that it does not matter what the numbers are? Whether it is 500 or 50,000 people who come, the crucial issue is whether they should automatically get access without making any contribution whatsoever to our country. Does he agree that that is what needs to be addressed?
Keith Vaz
I agree with my hon. Friend. That comment was made to me and the shadow Minister for Immigration when he came to my constituency recently by the settled British Asian community and others who feel that people should make a contribution. However, the figures show that of the 500,000 Poles who came to this country after 2004, only 7,000 claimed benefits. The other almost 500,000 made a huge contribution to our country. However, she is right that nobody should assume that on arrival they can automatically claim for benefits to which they have not contributed. If we stick to those principles and put aside the arms race that seems to be developing on immigration, we will do much better.
I think that the only way to settle this issue is to have a referendum on whether we should stay in or come out of the European Union. I have said that many times before, and I know I am in a minority on the Opposition Benches. I did not favour that when I was Minister for Europe, but it is important that the British people have the say over whether we should stay in or come out. I actually think that it should happen before the general election. I do not see why we should wait until after the negotiations have occurred. Frankly, I am not as optimistic as the Prime Minister that he will get many concessions from the 26 other countries of the European Union, and I think he will be bitterly disappointed. Why pretend to the British electorate? They understand the issues, and it is quite right that we should put our views to them now. That should be part of a wide public education campaign that would allow people to understand the issues involved and not just rely on a few tabloid newspapers.
I am glad that there is a policing Bill in the Queen’s Speech, because we have some unfinished business as far as policing is concerned. I support the Government’s ambitious programme for a new policing landscape, but the problem is that the jigsaw is not complete. Many bits are still missing, and we are running out of time.
Mr Mitchell
I agree strongly with my hon. Friend. He has direct experience of this issue, and we need to tackle the culture of impunity that grows up in such situations. It is important to use every possible mechanism —he eloquently described one such mechanism—and I hope that he will ensure that Foreign Office Ministers can gather from his experience the extent of what can be done to tackle that culture.
Kate Hoey
Does he also agree, however, that it is worrying that journalists and photographers are being deliberately targeted because they can bring back the news and the photographs that will make a difference? Does he welcome the setting up of A Day without News, which is being supported by human rights organisations across the world, to support journalists and photographers in the valuable work that they do in exposing these terrible crimes?
Mr Mitchell
The hon. Lady is right to flag up the importance of that work, supported as she says by many of the organisations that stand up for human rights in difficult situations around the world.
I have mentioned US leadership. On Israel and Palestine, which continues to pollute the well of international opinion and good will, such leadership is essential. No time is easier for an American president to exercise that leadership on Israel and Palestine than the start of a second term. I profoundly hope that with the support of its allies we will see the US exercising that influence to try to do something about the deeply unjust situation in the middle east. Like the Syrian situation, although much more longstanding, it continues to pollute good will and international opinion.
The right hon. Member for Leicester East mentioned Somalia, which was also mentioned indirectly in the Queen’s Speech as part of the Government’s approach to securing stability and addressing insecurity. Somalia is important for Britain—we have a huge, successful and diverse Somali population throughout the UK—but it is one of the most ungoverned spaces in the world. Until recently, there were more British passport holders training as terrorists in Somalia than in any other country. Britain was heavily engaged in trying to save lives through humanitarian relief in the dreadful famine that struck the Horn of Africa over a year ago, imperilling the lives of hundreds of thousands of children in particular. Britain gave great leadership on that occasion and was able to bring international resources to bear to tackle that situation.
It was following that crisis that the Prime Minister made the brave decision that last year we would have in London a conference that would bring together all the different Somalian parties, the regional powers and the leading nations in the UN to see whether we could do something about a country that has been in chaos for the last 20 years and where nine separate initiatives have failed to achieve anything to bring about change or improvement. It looks as though considerable progress is now being made in dealing with that intractable problem, and the conference yesterday confirmed that. I mention that because it is right to acknowledge that British efforts and support seem to be leading to fundamental change in that country. That is hugely important to Britain, as well as to those who live in Somalia, whose lives have been so blighted in recent years.
Finally, I want to give strong praise and support to the Government’s G8 initiative to combat violence against women. I know that this is a particular interest and concern of the Foreign Secretary. It is great news that he has said that it will be put at the heart of the G8 agenda. The lives of millions and millions of women and girls are destroyed by insecurity and instability. Putting high on the G8’s agenda the importance of tackling violence against women will lead to the chance to transform the lives of some of the poorest people in the world, who always suffer first and foremost from instability and deep poverty.
I wish the Government well on their programme for the G8 and every success with the Queen’s Speech, which is—as I say—well judged and has the capacity to make a huge difference to the lives of our fellow citizens and our constituents during a very difficult economic time for our country.
Mr Davis
My hon. Friend is entirely right. He is a better historian than I am, and he could probably refer back to the United States of America in about 1900 or just before, when politicians used the same popular view of big business to create a model of capitalism in the United States that for the next century beat the world. We could do the same, and we should do the same, but I am afraid that at the moment I see no enthusiasm for that. I will certainly pursue that in the next year, however.
Finally, on home affairs, immigration has come to the fore, particularly because of the UK Independence party’s activities in the past few weeks. I dealt with the issue for a long time when I was shadow Home Secretary. The difficulty is to come up with a set of measures that is both firm and will deal with the issue without being uncivilised—without being barbarous, or perceived as barbarous, in approach. That applies to both the immigration problems the Government are attempting to solve in the Queen’s Speech: the ability to deport immigrants who come here and become criminals or terrorists—such as Abu Qatada—and mass migration.
On the issue of criminals, I am the last person to give way to anybody on human rights in this House of Commons. I suspect most people would accept that, yet I take the view that the misuse of human rights legislation by the likes of Abu Qatada brings the whole question of rights under the law into disrepute.
It is important to resolve this issue in a way that is both fair and effective. The European Court of Human Rights and the British courts are acting against their own long-term interests by being pig-headed in their approach. Qatada serves as a good example. If Qatada faced torture or death abroad, I would lie down in the street in front of the black Maria taking him away, but the truth is that we are talking here about making judgments about other countries’ justice systems, and we simply cannot do that. If we do that, we will start to challenge the whole question of whether we should send someone back to America. Let us consider the treatment of Christopher Tappin. He was extradited under the extradition rules. That was not justice; it was a parody of justice. Then there is the treatment of some of the people who have been dealt with in Greece, let alone Romania and Bulgaria, which, frankly, do not have working justice systems.
We therefore have to think very hard about where we will draw the line, and I draw the line on the treatment of the individual we are sending, not on the justice system of the country we are sending them to. I do so within reason, of course; if there were a dictatorial fiat, that would be another matter, but we are not talking about that here, because this argument is about what sort of evidence might be used.
We have had lots of talk from the Government, including the Home Secretary, and lots of posturing, but the issue could have been dealt with already. I say that because about two months ago my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) tabled an amendment to primary legislation to say, “We will take into account articles 2 and 3, but not article 8 and the others, when making these decisions.” Why would this work? It would work because the Human Rights Act, of which I am no great fan, can be trumped, not by regulation or ministerial decision but by primary legislation passed by this House. We could have fixed this problem, but the Government talked the measure out—it was the day of the Leveson debate—and did not attempt to create time for it. They should have passed it. I do not know what we will get now, but it will be different. Importantly, the legislation must great clarity, because the courts will interpret any vagueness to the advantage of the person who might be deported. That is inevitable; it is what has happened over the past few years. We can fix this problem, but we need to face up to the need for clarity and for a decision on what we are really saying about the European convention on human rights.
The other element of the immigration debate is mass migration. I agree with the Government that we must limit the ability of people who have made no contribution, perhaps having come here temporarily, to claim welfare benefits and social housing in the UK. I am not at all sure, however, that I agree with the Government’s idea of withholding health care from people coming to this country, and I return to my point about acting firmly without being uncivilised—without being barbarous. I find it difficult to imagine doctors in an accident and emergency department in a London hospital finding someone with a foreign accent on a trolley in front of them and asking, “Where are you from? If you are Hungarian, you can be treated; if you are Bulgarian, you can’t.” I do not see how that is going to work. Most of us get reciprocal health care if we go to European countries on holiday, to retire or to live, so I do not see how we are going to amend our provision. I am not sure, in my heart of hearts, that I want to say to someone who has been run over in the street, “You can’t have health care, because you’re a foreigner.”
Kate Hoey
I understand what the right hon. Gentleman says about people falling over in the street, but people come from Heathrow airport to the A and E department at my local hospital, St Thomas’s, with something that they knew perfectly well they had before they came. It is not as simple as saying, “We must look after the sick”; clearly there are limits. This is a form of health service tourism.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)
It is always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). We share many platforms as we have neighbouring constituencies and neighbouring boroughs. I agree with him very much about Bangladesh. We too have a Bangladeshi community in our area working in Waterloo and across the borough to his constituency. We send them our best wishes after the terrible things that have happened in Bangladesh and are pleased that so many people in the local community are giving them support at this difficult time. There are issues on which the right hon. Gentleman and I disagree strongly—rarely local ones, but we differ in our views of the European Union. I am not a little Englander; I just do not believe that we should be little Europeans.
It is great to have this opportunity to speak about almost anything. Practically all the measures listed in the Gracious Speech have been covered in the debate. Those of us who have been Members for a very long time almost take for granted the wonderful ceremonial of the opening of Parliament. I have tried over the years to see it from different angles. As a country we should be so proud that we can produce such a wonderful spectacle, which brings people to this country and is a symbol of democracy. I am so pleased that we are continuing that tradition in all its glory.
A number of Members have mentioned Bills that are not in the Queen’s Speech. It was pointed out earlier that the communications data Bill has been left out. I campaigned strongly on that issue, which I believe was a civil liberties issue, like identity cards, and the proposals would have meant that all e-mails were retained and investigated. It would have been a snoopers’ charter and there is no reason why the presumption should be to intrude on innocent normal people who are going about their everyday business. I am delighted that that has been dropped, and I pay tribute to Liberty, which has done such a wonderful job in ensuring that the Bill has been dropped. I hope we never see it again in the next two Sessions.
In the Gracious Speech Her Majesty said:
“My Government will continue with legislation to update energy infrastructure and to improve the water industry.”
One aspect of the water industry that I had hoped would be in the Gracious Speech is the granting of statutory responsibility for flooding to the fire service. Flooding has been a major issue. I am lucky that that is not a particular problem in my constituency, but we must give the fire service that statutory responsibility, as happens in other parts of the United Kingdom. I had hoped that that might have been included in the Bill, and perhaps we can still get it in.
Clearly the immigration proposals will be controversial and will need detailed scrutiny. Until we see the details, I do not think that we can say a great deal, other than to agree that—this is my personal view—no one should come to this country simply to abuse its rules and regulations, and I mentioned earlier the issue of health tourism. I am concerned about one proposal in particular. I am not sure that the Government should be handing over their responsibility for dealing with immigration control to landlords. I really do not think that landlords letting out homes should have to bear the responsibility for deciding whether someone is an illegal immigrant.
I am delighted that we have got rid of the UK Border Agency. As the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee said, those of us who deal with thousands of immigration cases know that that organisation was just waiting to be abolished. What we put in its place must be robust and more efficient. We cannot continue to have people going around the system—and it really is a system—for years and years. That is simply not how to run any kind of civilized immigration system. I hope that the changes will make a difference.
I look forward to the whole debate on immigration. One thing I think all Members across the Chamber can agree on is that we can now discuss immigration without worrying that people will be accused of being racist, because it is not racist to discuss how we control our borders. Certainly, my constituents, large numbers of whom are second, third or fourth generation Afro-Caribbean, are equally concerned about houses and homes being taken by people who they feel have perhaps not been in the country very long. At least when the Bill comes forward we will be able to debate it in a way that allows us to express our views and to have strong opinions, rather than feeling that if we raise the issue we might be condemned as racists.
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) is no longer in the Chamber, because I agree with her so much on HS2. As a London MP, I know that people will say that London will benefit enormously, but I believe that it is one of those projects that started off as the idea of some civil servant and became the idea of many engineers and transport experts. Everyone then gathered round and it became an establishment project, and no one wants to say, “Maybe we’ve got it wrong.” I hope that, as she said, during the detailed consideration we will be able to see that the economics of HS2 really do not stand up to scrutiny and that some of the experts who have been offering their knowledge on it are perhaps looking at it from a slightly different view from those who live in the areas that will be affected. In particular, I have grave doubts about the idea that it will boost our economy. I think that the billions that will be spent on that need to be re-examined.
As a member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, I was pleased to hear about the Northern Ireland Bill. It is good that Northern Ireland will be discussed and debated on the Floor of the House. All too often now people dismiss Northern Ireland and we cannot get a great deal of discussion about it on the Floor. That is for very good reasons, of course, because in many ways things there are now so much better, but in many other ways they are not. The Bill will provide an opportunity to have that discussion.
The Bill that I would have liked to see—the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee would also agree on this—is one that would allow us a vote on the European Union much earlier than the Government envisage. I am not saying that because of what happened with the UK Independence party last week; I have been saying it for some time. I am pleased to have been joined by so many more colleagues, even on the Labour Benches, and particularly those who in the past have been seen as very pro-Europe. They are now beginning to realise that everything that has been said in the past about ever-closer union has to be criticised and objectively put to the people, because things have changed so much in our relationship with Europe that we cannot ignore the fact that people need a say. If we were to have a vote over the next year on whether to give the people a referendum, I cannot see any party in this Chamber saying that it did not trust people enough to give them a referendum on the future of our relationship with the European Union.
I am disappointed that such a Bill was not included in the Gracious Speech, but I am hopeful that, because the last part of it referred to matters that can be laid before the House, after another month or two the Government, even if they cannot get coalition agreement, will have the confidence and courage to put it to the House so that we can have that debate and discussion and let the people see how their Members of Parliament actually feel about giving them a say in one of the most important issues facing this country.