Future of Rail (Passenger Experience)

Debate between Kate Green and Louise Ellman

Thursday 16th March 2017 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Ellman]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. If somebody has the time, the knowledge, the ability and the access to the appropriate technology, they can discover a lot of information, but it is not available to everyone, and I find it very surprising that Ministers and the rail sector as a whole are simply unable to take up this issue and ensure that information that is technically available is actually available to the ordinary passenger. That is where my concern lies and where the Committee’s concern lies.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate, which my constituents will follow with great interest. Does she agree that it is also important that passengers are able to buy any sort of ticket, particularly at unstaffed stations, and that one of the urgent priorities is to make sure that ticket machines are put in place in all those stations where no staff are present, including those on the line through Urmston and Trafford Park, many of which do not have such machines?

[Mrs Ellman]

My hon. Friend makes another excellent point. There is nothing more frustrating for a passenger than to be told that tickets are available, only to go along to their local station and find that that simply is not the case. I say again that this is a long-standing issue. It is known about, Ministers are well aware of it, but very little indeed has been done to resolve it. My hon. Friend has done a great service to her constituents in drawing attention to this issue during this debate.

Rail passengers want clear and accurate information about their journeys. They want information not only on how to go about their journey and what sorts of journeys are available but on how a journey is progressing. Too often, however, that information is simply not being provided.

When we conducted our inquiry and called for evidence, it came flooding in and we saw that passengers were largely negative, first about their experience of train operating companies’ websites. One such website was described by a passenger as being

“appalling, badly designed, inefficient, difficult to use, often to the point of being unusable”.

Some smartphone apps seem little better, as they routinely failed to provide reliable information, for example about which platform a train will depart from. Once again, that is basic information and it is galling for passengers to read reports about systems being put in place, which can all sound very good. What really matters is what happens to an individual when they make their journey. That is what really counts.

It is important that the technology is available and accessible, but it is also important that people are actually at hand in stations to give assistance and information. That help is essential for everybody—travellers want to see actual people around who can help them, and give them guidance and information—but for people who have a disability it is absolutely essential. Although the systems in place for assisting people with disabilities to travel by train sometimes work, there are also occasions when those systems break down, which is another great concern for us.

Overcrowding is another ongoing concern. It does not happen everywhere, but where it does happen it is extremely important and creates major obstacles. Many people told us that their journeys were uncomfortable. They often worried about whether they could actually get on the train. Many were concerned about the potential danger in getting on very crowded trains, and that is stressful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Ellman]

Thank you, Sir Edward. The Department is well aware of this long-standing problem. It must identify places where overcrowding has become a persistent serious problem, making journeys uncomfortable. The train companies, through the franchise agreements negotiated with the Department, should be required to identify where there is a serious problem and take action to alleviate overcrowding on specific services. I hope that the Minister will confirm that he is looking at the problem and is proposing action to address it.

Over the past day or two, there has been a lot of discussion about the consultation on the Southeastern franchise, which has rightly raised the big issue of overcrowding. The consultation puts forward certain proposals for dealing with the issue, but it is not a problem just for new franchises; the problem is being experienced now, and it requires the Department’s attention. It relates to the train operating companies and the provision of rolling stock.

I repeat the question that I have asked a succession of Ministers numerous times in a succession of meetings: who is responsible for the long-term planning and delivery of rolling stock? That might sound like a pretty basic, simple, fundamental question, but I have never received a straightforward answer; the nearest I have got is something about “the Department”. I then ask, “Who is it in the Department? The Minister? The Secretary of State?” Then the clarity disappears.

When we come across specific issues and problems—there was one a couple of years ago when a carriage was moved from an important service in the north to go to the then Prime Minister’s constituency—Ministers appear to be powerless. I was told by the then Secretary of State, “It will get resolved.” It did get resolved, in the end and after a great deal of fuss, but I still had no answer to the question of who was actually responsible. The Minister is very diligent about these matters, so I hope he will be able to give a clearer answer. Who is responsible for the long-term planning and delivery of rolling stock, including new rolling stock and refurbishment?

People are facing a whole range of problems in undertaking their journeys on rail. Perhaps one constant feature, which overrides other rail issues, is the constant challenge of the rail system’s fragmentation. Time and again we come back to the issue of how the sector will work together more cohesively to give the best possible service to the passenger.

The Rail Delivery Group was set up to bring the rail sector together. Yes, it has made some improvements, but it has not addressed the basic issues. How will it change the way it operates? Does it need more powers? Do franchises need to be different? Should the Department and Ministers act in a different way? How can the rail regulator be more effective in taking action? That is not clear. Does the regulator need more powers? If so, what are they? What action does the Minister propose to take to make that a reality? The most disappointing thing about the challenges that the Committee and I have identified is that most of them are not new: they are long standing. Despite the best efforts of a succession of Ministers and the Department, not a great deal has changed, and we simply cannot go on like that.

As our inquiry was under way, a major crisis was developing on Southern rail, which is part of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise. It is run by the parent company, Govia Thameslink Railway —known as GTR—but I will refer to it as Southern, because that is the area in which the bulk of the problems have arisen and where the bulk of the difficulties are for passengers.

As we were conducting our inquiry, passengers on the route were becoming increasingly exasperated and angry that their rail service, for which many pay several thousand pounds a year, was inadequate and utterly unreliable. Whether passengers are paying several thousand pounds a year for a season ticket or simply paying their fare, they are equally entitled to have a proper service, but that was not happening. The situation remains virtually the same, with passengers suffering mass cancellations and inordinate delays. People’s jobs have been put at risk, simply because they cannot get to work on time. Some people reported that they have moved house because of the problem.

Life has been disrupted. Why? It is a sorry combination of a too-large franchise, poor management, misjudgment and disastrous industrial relations, which have conspired to create an appalling situation for passengers. The ongoing strikes have compounded a series of errors and incompetence. Passengers are right to be angry, but the Department does not seem to be doing much about the situation except to accept that there is a big problem.

It cannot be acceptable for those responsible for the problem—not just one party is responsible; responsibility must be shared by a multiplicity of organisations and individuals—to fail so comprehensively and for so long and to appear not to be acting. In 2016 alone, 58,983 train journeys were partly or wholly cancelled. That is a tremendous figure. I do not think the travelling public want to hear all the arguments about who is responsible. They just know that it is a fact that their lives are still being disrupted and that nothing much is changing, and they want something done about it.

The Department has already accepted that the franchise that was drawn up was much too large. It is the largest in the country. It is uniquely large; it contains more than a fifth of all the passenger journeys across Britain’s entire network. It is too large a franchise, and the Department has said that that was its mistake.

Add to that the situation on the ground and the complexity of major infrastructure works planned during the course of the franchise agreement, including the huge and logistically challenging Thameslink programme, and there was a recipe for calamitous passenger experience. The impact of the Thameslink programme on passenger services was substantially underestimated. The estimated number of delay minutes was forecast to be 10,000 per year; the reality has been 10,000 per week. I ask the Minister how that estimate could be so disastrously wrong. It has contributed substantially to the problem.

If we add to those things—too large a franchise and a major infrastructure challenge, the impact of which was grossly underestimated—inadequate levels of staffing, the situation becomes even worse. The industrial action on top of that has escalated the situation to an unacceptable level.

I mention one other factor; I suspect hon. Members will find it difficult to believe if they are not already aware of it. At the very beginning of the franchise, the company did not have enough drivers to operate the trains. That part has been rectified—except for the fact that we are now in a dispute about driver-only operation—but having insufficient drivers at the beginning of the franchise does not suggest great competence.

The question for the Department and the Minister to answer is: what is being done? The franchise was constructed on a management fee basis, which is currently unique, because of the anticipated risk. The revenues go directly to the Government and a fee is paid to the train operator, so there is no risk in that sense. I have described the nature of the services and the problems. The train operator receives an annual management fee of around £1 billion; probably around £3 billion has been paid out to date. Under that system, the public purse foots the bill for losses that occur from lost sales, disruption and passenger compensation.

I do not have an up-to-date figure of exactly how much has been lost and how much the public purse will have to pay out, but the latest figure I have is £38 million and rising. That was supplied by the Minister in a letter to me some time ago. Compensation schemes have been announced since then, and we do not know how they are operating or how much money is involved. The bill could be increasing substantially.

To add to the complexity and difficulty, there is the issue of force majeure, which concerns the dispute—ongoing and unresolved, as far as I am aware—between the train operating company and the Department for Transport about who is responsible for all those cancelled services. Who is responsible for those 58,983 and more train journeys that were wholly or partly cancelled? There is an unresolved dispute between the Department and the train company, with no end date in sight. That cannot be acceptable. All this is continuing—passengers are getting more and more angry, and there is no end date. I hope the Minister can tell us what is happening and when it will be resolved. The public also have a right to know what the Department’s plans are to deal with the situation.

The franchise is due to run until September 2021. I would not like to anticipate the extent or the level of anger that passengers are going to be feeling by then if nothing changes. What is the Department doing? Is it considering restructuring the franchise—perhaps dividing it up and allocating different parts to different operators? There is silence. We simply do not know what is happening. Doing nothing is simply not enough.

[Kate Green]

My hon. Friend is highlighting well-publicised problems at Southern Rail. She will know that, in the last few weeks, a similar dispute began with Northern Rail, which serves both her constituency and mine. Does she agree that Ministers need to take action swiftly so that we do not end up in the long drawn-out and unresolved situation with Northern Rail that passengers have had to suffer at Southern Rail? Will she call on the Minister to tell us what swift action the Government are taking?

[Mrs Ellman]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The issue is escalating and is now not solely to do with Southern Rail. I hope the Minister is able to tell us what he and the Department are doing to deal with this unacceptable situation. However blame is apportioned, it is the passengers who are suffering.

I thank the Minister for certain steps that he has taken in relation to Southern Rail, which have an impact on the rest of the rail network. The Committee was extremely concerned to find that the Department was not making information available about its monitoring of the franchise and whether contractual benchmarks were being met. After a lot of pressure from the Committee, the Minister agreed that that information would be made publicly available as far as it could be—not simply for Southern Rail, but across the network for other franchises.

I thank the Minister for responding to our concerns so swiftly when he realised their extent, but I have to ask when that information will actually be made available, for Southern Rail and for franchises in the rest of the country. It is extremely important that the Department monitors franchises. Because of its failures, the situation in the Southern franchise has now reached dramatic proportions, but there are other issues in other parts of the rail network and the Department is equally responsible there. I would like some information on that monitoring.

I have dwelt at some length on what is happening at Southern Rail because it is such a traumatic, ongoing event, but also because some of its features can be applied in other areas. We have major infrastructure works planned for other parts of the network as well. Will the Minister ensure that the problems in miscalculations made in relation to infrastructure on Southern Rail will not be replicated in other parts of the country when major infrastructure works take place? That is a very important question.

It is important to go back to the beginning and ask how we know what passengers’ concerns are and whether we are monitoring them properly. The rail sector does have ways of monitoring passengers’ views. There is an annual rail passenger survey, and other things are done, but the Committee felt that they were not really adequate because some of the information that we picked up from passengers was not reflected in some of the official statistics that had been collected. I would ask that that whole system be looked at again.

Later in this Parliament, we will complete our “future of the rail” series of inquiries by looking at rail finance and governance, and how important changes should and can be implemented. I am in no doubt that the massive increase in the numbers of people using trains is a success story and I applaud many of the developments in our rail service. In many ways, it has been a success—but there are major problems and issues, and one is the passenger experience.

I have outlined some of the report’s findings today, and I thank all Committee members, a number of whom are here this afternoon, for their work and dedication. They looked at the issue as a whole and have drawn attention to their own individual information and experience from their role as constituency MPs. I thank them for that.

We are all working to secure one end: to bring improvements. I conclude by thanking the Minister for the attention he has already shown to some aspects of the issue. However, the Committee would like to know what else will be done so that passengers’ experience can be improved, on a growing and increasingly successful railway.

High-speed Rail

Debate between Kate Green and Louise Ellman

Thursday 19th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Ellman]

I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. He draws attention to the importance of having an integrated transport policy so that rail, road, aviation and maritime issues can be considered together, and the Committee made remarks of that nature in our initial report two years ago. However, decisions have to be made. The Committee repeats its concern that no decision has yet been taken on the serious question of a direct link to Heathrow. However, we do not have the remit to look at aviation policy at the moment. Indeed, our recommendation is that we think there should be a third runway at Heathrow, but we do not have the authority to take a decision on that. Currently the timetable set out by the Government means that the Davies commission will not report until the summer of 2015. No guarantee has been given on when a decision on airport capacity will be made after that, although I hope that it is soon. Given the timetable for High Speed 2, it seems impractical to say that no decision could be taken on that until well after 2015. However, the point he makes is important and well taken.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

I welcome the report and place on the record my support for the High Speed 2 programme. I particularly endorse what my hon. Friend has said about the importance of connecting the strategy for HS2 with local and regional economic strategies. She will be aware of the fear that HS2 might serve to draw investment and business activity from north to south, rather than in the opposite direction, so it is important that proper economic planning takes place to address that. Does the Committee have plans to consider local transport strategies, which are important in ensuring a match between strategic plans for HS2 and the development of local economies, and for investment not only in local rail networks but in local bus networks, light rail and other forms of local transport?

[Mrs Ellman]

My hon. Friend draws attention to the great importance of local, and indeed regional, work being conducted to ensure that the potential benefits of High Speed 2 are enjoyed in all parts of the country. Initially, the responsibility for doing that is being taken up in some local areas—I know that a lot of work is being done in the west midlands and in the Manchester area—but it is not good enough to leave that entirely to those local and regional authorities. In the Committee’s future questioning of Ministers and High Speed 2 itself, and specifically Sir David Higgins, I intend to pursue that issue so that, as well as individual authorities taking their own initiatives, there is some kind of national oversight of what is being done. After all, this is one of the biggest national investment decisions to be taken for a very long time. There has to be some responsibility from the Government as well as from localities to ensure that its benefits are felt and that the work to ensure that that happens is carried out.

Road Safety

Debate between Kate Green and Louise Ellman

Thursday 25th April 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

I will start by setting out the current situation.

The most recent annual report on road casualties was published last year and provides detailed information for 2011. In that year, there were 203,950 reported casualties on the roads of Great Britain. What is notable about the 2011 statistics is that they represent the first annual increase in the number of people killed in road accidents since 2003. The number of fatalities increased by 3% to 1,901. Fatalities increased for car occupants by 6% to 883 and for pedestrians by 12% to 453.

The number of people killed or seriously injured also increased by 2% to 25,023. In particular, those figures increased for cyclists, by 15% to 3,192, and motorcyclists, by 8% to 5,609—those are very sad figures. Despite that increase, our report recognises that the number of people killed or seriously injured in road accidents still remains lower than in any year since national records began, with the exception of 2010. The 2011 figures, however, represent a worrying departure from the long-term trend of decreasing road casualties, which raises questions about the Government’s road safety strategy. The figures should be a wake-up call for the Government to provide stronger leadership on road safety.

We asked the Government to explain why they think road deaths increased in 2011. The Department for Transport’s response stated that there were a number of factors that may have contributed to the year-on-year increase in road fatalities from 2010 to 2011, particularly given that

“2010 saw the highest ever fall (17 per cent) in a single year.”

The main reason for that change put forward by the Department was that periods of extreme winter weather in 2010 may have reduced the number of road fatalities in that year, as there would have been much less traffic than usual and those motorists who ventured out would have driven more slowly and cautiously. What other reasons does the Minister believe might lie behind that increase?

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

I am pleased that this debate is taking place, and I apologise for not being able to stay for all of it, but it means a great deal to my constituents. The Safer Trafford Streets campaign is bringing together a range of local people and local organisations to campaign for improved road safety. Does my hon. Friend share my concern that, in light of the figures that she has just revealed, councils, including Trafford council, are cutting road safety posts? We have lost one of our two local road safety officers as a result of council cuts, which obviously creates a further risk that the figures will decline.

[Mrs Ellman]

My hon. Friend points to the importance of local campaigning and the impact of cuts in local government spending on the ability of local authorities to address road safety. I will return to those points. It would also be helpful to know whether the Minister has any provisional information on whether the winter weather earlier this year led to fewer fatalities.

Political leadership is a major factor in road safety. For many, the presence of targets under previous Governments was a sign of that leadership; targets help to focus attention on road safety and to prioritise resources. The current Government, however, have decided to adopt a different approach. When the Government published their strategic framework for road safety in May 2011, they decided against the use of road targets. Instead, they have replaced targets with an action plan and an outcomes framework, consisting of a number of indicators to be measured and a set of casualty forecasts. If the forecasts turn out to be inaccurate, the Department has indicated that it will look at the statistical data and consider its policy options. Perhaps the Minister will elaborate on those options.

Localism, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), is a key theme of the Government’s strategic approach to road safety: decentralising power and funding will allow local authorities to be more flexible and innovative in tackling it. Strong leadership and a clearer vision, however, are required from the centre to communicate the importance of road safety to local decision makers and other agencies. We concluded in our inquiry that, under conditions of reduced local authority resources and a loss of skilled road safety personnel, the Government should not sit back and assume that road safety will remain a priority. There remains a responsibility for central Government to do all that they can to keep local authorities, the police, other agencies and indeed the public fully focused on delivering significant and sustained improvements.

Our inquiry found considerable variation among local authorities in their performance on road safety. There were certainly examples of good practice, but there were also cases of local authorities not improving their road safety performance in recent years. The Department indicated that it had plans to name and shame the worst performing local authorities; we asked for further information about how that might be achieved and the possible impact, and we were told that the Department had commissioned a local road safety comparison site to pull together a number of metrics that would allow members of the public to be aware of their local highway authority’s road safety performance. The Government believe that making that information available will help the public, lobby groups and council officers and members to identify where there is room for improvement. On launching the website last month, the Minister explained in a written statement that it will help the public and road safety professionals to compare the road safety performance of local authorities.

I have, however, received a number of expressions of concern about the efficiency of the website. I am told that it does not allow comparison of different authorities in any meaningful way. For example, comparisons using annual data can be misleading due to large fluctuations in some of the information, and a considerable amount of work would need to be done by someone looking for comparative data. In addition, there does not appear to be an opportunity to compare the performance of neighbouring local authorities alongside one another on the screen. Can the Minister tell us how much it cost the Department to get the website up and running and whether he is satisfied that it will work effectively as a comparison tool? Furthermore, how does he intend to use it to improve road safety? Having that information will be extremely helpful.

I will mention a number of areas of particular concern in road safety, the first being the safety of young drivers. It is not a new area of concern, and the Transport Committee has looked at it a number of times; the first report of the Select Committee that I was involved with was completed in July 2007. Today, I welcome the report by PACTS—the parliamentary advisory committee for transport safety—which again draws attention to this important issue. The figures are startling: a fifth of people killed or seriously injured on our roads in 2011 were involved in a collision in which at least one driver was aged between 17 and 24; 148 young drivers died and 412 people were killed in accidents involving young drivers, accounting for 22% of all road deaths; 4,894 people were killed or seriously injured in reported accidents involving young car drivers, including 1,552 young car drivers themselves, 936 passengers of young car drivers and 2,406 other casualties, such as occupants of other vehicles or pedestrians; and 27% of 17 to 19-year-old males are involved in a road collision within the first year of passing their test. Those are shocking statistics, and behind every statistic lies a human tragedy. Improving the safety of young drivers must be a priority and must be addressed urgently.

I was disappointed that the Government did not accept the Committee’s recommendation to initiate an independent review of driver training. Instead, the Department intends a Green Paper on improving safety and reducing risks for young drivers. Is the Department considering measures such as a minimum learning period and is it learning from lessons on the motorways to reduce young driver crashes? When will the Green Paper be published and what are the expected time scales for consultation and implementation? Implementing new policies inevitably takes time, so it would also be helpful to get an update from the Minister on specific action by the Department to improve the safety of young drivers and their passengers. What proposals does he have to encourage work with young people, perhaps before they drive, to change their attitude, which is the all-important issue? We do not want young new drivers, young male drivers in particular, to start driving with an attitude of bravado and without realising that a car can be a lethal weapon. The Government are concerned, but we need some urgency. Furthermore, are the Government looking to support voluntary organisations such as car clubs which can assist in this important area?

Cyclists are particularly vulnerable on the road: in 2011, 3,085 cyclists were killed or seriously injured. During our inquiry, The Times newspaper conducted a major campaign on the issue and gave evidence to the Committee. One criticism made by witnesses during our inquiry was about the lack of leadership from the Government on cycle safety. The Department told us that it had set up a cycling stakeholder forum, which was working on a list of ideas and actions to propose to Ministers. How often has that forum met over the past year and, as a result, what actions are being taken forward by the Department? Information from the Minister on that will be helpful.

I welcome the Government setting up the £40 million cycle safety fund, to improve road layouts in particular. The Government were reacting to concerns expressed, which is commendable, but there is a great deal more to do. Cycle safety could be improved in a number of different ways, including training, fitting heavy goods vehicles with sensors and providing infrastructure. Can the Department consider how to encourage the greater adoption of HGV sensors that might make cyclists more visible to lorry drivers? The Department told us that it was not in a position to support mandatory fitment of proximity sensors in HGVs and that the mandatory introduction of any new vehicle technology would need to be agreed at European Union level, so will the Minister update us on his discussions at EU level and whether there is support for such EU-wide regulations?

Motorcyclists are another vulnerable group; they accounted for 1% of traffic but 19% of deaths on Britain’s roads in 2011; 5,609 motorcyclists were killed or seriously injured, with 74% of those accidents involving another vehicle, and 69% of the casualties resulted from accidents at junctions. The Department continues to promote motorcycle road safety through its Think! campaign. The Department said in its response to our report that a review of the motorcycle safety advertising campaign was under way to inform the development of the new campaign plan for 2014. I would be grateful if the Minister told us what lessons were learned from that review and how they have informed the new Think! road safety initiative to encourage motorcyclists to improve their defensive riding skills.

On motorcycle safety, we also sought in our report an update on the changes to the motorcycle test, another area that the Transport Committee has looked at in the past. It has also expressed great concern about the new European motorcycle test. The Department told us that research is being undertaken to evaluate the standard, suitability and safety of the proposed revised motorcycle manoeuvres. We were informed that phase three of the research was due to conclude at the end of last year, and that a full public consultation would follow. Will the Minister update us on that?

Finally, I want to discuss speed limits and their role in making our roads safer. Local authorities have found that 20 mph zones are useful in improving road safety, particularly by reducing pedestrian and cyclist casualties. There is evidence of significant public support for these zones. Indeed, this is another area of policy that is being implemented for which the Transport Committee made strong recommendations when it considered transport safety in the past.

I welcome the fact that the Government have recently updated their guidance to help local councils to implement more consistent speed limits on local roads.