Courts and Tribunals Bill

Debate between Karl Turner and Nusrat Ghani

2nd reading
Tuesday 10th March 2026 Commons Chamber

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

Madam Deputy Speaker, you and I have been friends for some time. I think you were elected in 2015. Soon after that, your talents were recognised and you were quickly given a ministerial brief. You know my politics, as we have crossed swords many a time, so you know it pains me to congratulate the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Nick Timothy), the shadow Justice Secretary, on his outstanding contribution; there was really nothing in it that I could disagree with. None the less, I do welcome the intervention of my right hon. Friend, the Justice Secretary and Deputy Prime Minister, because it is true that since he has been in post, he has secured the biggest investment for the criminal justice system in decades, amounting to something in the region of £2.5 billion. I commend my dear friend for that work, which I know will have taken some serious graft with the Treasury officials and the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

It is true that much of this Bill is absolutely critical, including the actions to reduce the backlog. No Member of this House wants to see victims of crime languishing, waiting for months and years for their cases to be heard. The Labour Government’s policy on reducing violence against women and girls is crucial as well. It is also right to say that the previous Government savaged the criminal justice system, underfunding it during the austerity years. But I have to be honest: it was not just the previous Tory Government who did that. The criminal justice system has been badly treated and badly funded for decades.

There are parts of this Bill, though, that are unworkable, unjust, unpopular and unnecessary, including jury trial curtailment, the extended powers for sentencing in the magistrates courts, and the removal of the right to elect jury trial for offences with less than three years’ tariff. It is concerning that the Government are doing away with the automatic right of appeal in the magistrates courts—that is essentially what is happening—because, as I said in an intervention, about 0.4%, or around 5,000 cases, go to appeal and 41% of those appeals are successful.

I am afraid to say that the analogy used by the Justice Secretary, of somebody stealing a bottle of whisky, is an unfortunate one. I do not pretend to be a terribly eminent lawyer—I was prosecuting and defending the theft of Mars bars in my second six pupillage before I was elected to this House in May 2010—but never did I see a situation in the magistrates court in which a defendant was advised to elect for a trial when they had allegedly nicked a bottle of whisky. That scenario is for the birds, to be perfectly honest. It is on the same level as the Justice Secretary, in his MOJ video, referring to a scraped knee in an A&E triage situation—it is unfortunate and disappointing, and he could do much better. The Institute for Government report, published today, states that the MOJ modelling is sound, but that it relies on several uncertain assumptions. That is a very grave concern.

I am not going to detain the House terribly long. Yesterday evening, I had what I can only describe as an incredibly honest and robust, but constructive, discussion with the Deputy Prime Minister, and I am glad to say that that discussion produced something of an offer. I think it is absolutely imperative that one of our number—one of those of us who are opposed to these changes for principled reasons—has a seat on the Public Bill Committee. Colleagues told me that this was impossible. They said, “It’s never going to happen.” They said that the Chief Whip would never concede to allowing one of the so-called rebels on to the Bill Committee. But, following the Deputy Prime Minister’s representations to the Chief Whip, that guarantee was made. For that reason and for that reason alone, I will abstain from voting on the Bill today.

Let me put it in this way: I will abstain today because I think there is a possibility of making progress, and because I trust my right hon. Friend to negotiate in good faith with colleagues who are opposed to the Bill. What I do not appreciate is MOJ officials spinning the line that “even Karl Turner was unable to persuade enough people to rebel against this Bill.” That is not right, it is unfair and, frankly, it is unbecoming of a Secretary of State in any Department. None the less, I abstain today and I sincerely urge my colleagues to abstain as well. I am more confident now than ever before that the worst parts of the Bill will be defeated by amendments. I sincerely ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to let the Bill pass its Second Reading, so that we can make progress on getting rid of the bits of this Bill that are completely unworkable, unpopular, unjust and unnecessary.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Karl Turner and Nusrat Ghani

Thursday 30th January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

We have a real problem with predatory capitalist shipping companies using flags of convenience to get round British maritime rules. This encourages dangerous work patterns and it is costing British seafarer jobs. Some of the worst offenders are P&O Ferries, paying £1.83 an hour on Bahamas-flagged vessels between Hull and the continent; P&O’s Norbay, a Bermuda-flagged vessel between Liverpool and Dublin, paying less than four quid an hour; and Irish Ferries’ Cyprus-flagged vessels between Holyhead and Dublin, paying £4.66 an hour. When will the Minister make sure that Britain has the maritime workforce it needs and deserves? Will she meet me and the general secretary of the RMT, Mick Cash, to discuss what we do to sort this mess out?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I am aware of this case; it was brought to my attention. The hon. Gentleman will know that I regularly meet up with Mick Cash. I am due to meet him quite shortly. I have raised the case with the UK Chamber of Shipping. The hon. Gentleman will know, as he represents a port constituency, that last year we signed ILO 188, a convention that ensures the rights of seafarers—everything about their basic needs, whether it is the time they should be sleeping, where their sleeping spaces should be, mealtimes, or decent pay. There are some contradictions between the cases that he presented and what the UK Chamber of Shipping is putting forward, so I suggest, if he finds it appropriate, that we sit down with the chamber and P&O to thrash this out.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Karl Turner and Nusrat Ghani

Thursday 13th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

I do not know what to say—the hon. Gentleman is disappointed that the Secretary of State is not at the Dispatch Box, but this is my portfolio and I am pleased to be responding to his question.

If the hon. Gentleman was close to the maritime sector, he would be aware that we have been working with it for the past two years and that just this week we had the inter-ministerial group meeting with the port sector and I appeared in front of the all-party parliamentary group for maritime and ports. There is extensive dialogue and constant research to see what we need to do to continue to prepare, and if this arises again, come October, we will put preparations in place.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

We could be just four months away from a disastrous no-deal Brexit, yet the Government have put on hold their contingency plans. The Secretary of State’s previous efforts resulted in 89 lorries and a refuse truck pretending to be on convoy to Dover, when in reality that route takes 10,000 heavy goods vehicles a day. He doled out contracts to ferry companies that did not have any actual ferries, or the means to get them, with terms and conditions cut and pasted from a fast food takeaway. He also threw 33 million quid away in an out-of-court settlement, and there are potentially many more litigations coming down the track. Will the Minister please give us a clue as to the Secretary of State’s next great plans?

[Ms Ghani]

Our plans amounted to just 1% of the no-deal planning, and it was the right thing to do for the Government to prepare for all eventualities. We were responsible in putting together the freight capacity that would be needed for critical supplies, including for the national health service. If the hon. Gentleman is so nervous about no deal, he should support a deal.

Draft Maritime Transport Access to Trade and Cabotage (Revocation) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Karl Turner and Nusrat Ghani

Tuesday 29th January 2019 General Committees

[Ms Ghani]

I am grateful to the hon. Members for Kingston upon Hull East and for West Dunbartonshire for their contributions, which underline the importance of the maritime sector to the UK’s trading capacity and success. It is important that people understand that, despite revoking EU legislation, the UK will still operate a liberal cabotage regime. That means shipping companies registered in EU member states will still be able to operate in the UK as they do now, so very little will change.

Competition was mentioned. After exiting the EU, the UK will have a robust competition regime, overseen by the Competition and Markets Authority, and will be able to take trade remedies action in its own right under the aegis of the World Trade Organisation. If hon. Members have concerns about what may or may not happen in a no-deal scenario—obviously, this instrument is intended to ensure that we have everything in place for such a scenario—I suggest that they support the Prime Minister’s deal.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East mentioned consultation with unions. We undertook extensive consultation, not only with the UK Chamber of Shipping but with the Scottish and Welsh Governments. We can discuss many issues, but we need to ensure that, in a no-deal scenario, we continue doing business as we do today. That is what this statutory instrument is about.

[Karl Turner]

On consultation, have there been any discussions with the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, which represents many crew members on vessels?

[Ms Ghani]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. We are not only blessed with the International Maritime Organisation, across the water, but the maritime sector is a global sector and one that we take very seriously. Only last week, we launched “Maritime 2050”, working with all stakeholders. We communicate with as many agencies as we can. We want to do what we can to ensure that the maritime sector in the UK continues to be as robust as it is.

I turn to cabotage. The draft regulations will make no practical difference to cabotage arrangements in UK waters. Operators from EU or non-EU countries will be able to continue to provide cabotage services as they do now. However, EU operators will no longer have guaranteed rights, which operators from other countries similarly do not have in UK waters. Such rights would not be reciprocated for UK operators in EU waters, so it is reasonable for us to revoke them.

[Karl Turner]

I am afraid the Minister did not answer my question. The question is, what discussions has the Minister had with the Rail, Maritime and Transport union, which happens to be the biggest trade union in the sector, representing seafarers in this country? It seems incredible to me that the Government have not had any discussions with the RMT union. Will she be clear about that quite simple point?

[Ms Ghani]

What is incredible is that the RMT did not update the hon. Gentleman to say that we did indeed speak to it recently. The union made it very clear that this piece of legislation does not adversely affect its practical interests in any way. Perhaps that is the incredible piece of information that he can take back to the RMT.

The changes made in the draft regulations are appropriate. They will remove from the UK statute book regulations that would otherwise be retained after EU withdrawal. They are fully supported by the Government, and I commend them to the Committee.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Karl Turner and Nusrat Ghani

Thursday 10th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

My hon. Friend raises an important issue. For over a decade it has been illegal for taxi and private hire drivers to refuse assistance dogs, and I am clear that they must comply with the law. We cannot risk lowering people’s confidence and ability to travel independently. Licensing authorities have the power to stop this happening by training drivers to understand their duties and by prosecuting them when they fail to comply. We are considering the recommendations mentioned by my hon. Friend and will publish a response in due course.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

Owing to undercutting caused by the exclusion of seafarers from equality and minimum wage legislation, UK seafarers only account for about 15% of all seafarer ratings in the UK shipping industry. That is shocking. But now that the Secretary of State has spent £103 million of UK taxpayers’ money on these UK ferry contracts, will the Minister tell us whether any UK seafarers will be employed, and will the crews be protected by UK employment legislation? Yes or no?

[Ms Ghani]

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is mistaken and has not heard what the Secretary of State mentioned earlier. No money has yet exchanged hands and it is up to the company how it crews its ships. It is important to note that we are working with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to ensure that we can deliver the national minimum wage for our seafarers.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Karl Turner and Nusrat Ghani

Thursday 22nd November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

My hon. Friend’s Bill raises vital issues. I commend her for all her campaigning work and thank her for the opportunity to meet her and her constituents to discuss the matter. It is crucial that disabled air passengers are able to travel in comfort and with dignity, and independently if they wish. That is why we will continue to work with the Civil Aviation Authority to secure improvements throughout the industry.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

There have been many reports recently of disabled people suffering poor service when travelling by plane, yet we still await publication of the aviation strategy, which might offer some reassurance to disabled air passengers. Why has the strategy not been published? When will it be published?

Transport

Debate between Karl Turner and Nusrat Ghani

Monday 15th October 2018 Ministerial Corrections

[Karl Turner]

It is scandalous that British officers and ratings hold fewer than 20% of jobs on UK vessels, while the shipping companies reap the benefits from the tonnage tax. Does the Minister agree that we need to create a mandatory link to training and employment of British seafarers, including ratings, as other EU countries have?

[Ms Ghani]

The tonnage tax enables us to have six types of apprenticeship, and it encourages companies to employ UK ratings as well. We are doing everything we can, whether it is on ports or working with our ship owners, to ensure that every opportunity is available for young people to enter the maritime sector as a career. [Official Report, 11 October 2018, Vol. 647, c. 270.]

Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Transport the hon. Member for Wealden (Ms Ghani):

An error has been identified in the response I gave to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner):

The correct response should have been:

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Karl Turner and Nusrat Ghani

Thursday 11th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

I recently met the RMT to discuss a number of issues, including the national minimum wage, which I am keen to explore, working with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. The right hon. Gentleman is right. We need to ensure that people are paid and dealt with appropriately and work in comfortable circumstances, whether at sea or on shore.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

It is scandalous that British officers and ratings hold fewer than 20% of jobs on UK vessels, while the shipping companies reap the benefits from the tonnage tax. Does the Minister agree that we need to create a mandatory link to training and employment of British seafarers, including ratings, as other EU countries have?

[Ms Ghani]

The tonnage tax enables us to have six types of apprenticeship, and it encourages companies to employ UK ratings as well. We are doing everything we can, whether it is on ports or working with our ship owners, to ensure that every opportunity is available for young people to enter the maritime sector as a career.[Official Report, 15 October 2018, Vol. 647, c. 6MC.]

[Karl Turner]

There is no link for ratings. It is not true.