St Patrick’s Day: Irish Diaspora in the UK

Karin Smyth Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2024 Westminster Hall

[Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered St Patrick’s Day and the contribution of the Irish diaspora to the UK.

Thank you, Dame Siobhain. I thank my co-sponsor, the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Dame Karen Bradley), as well as all Members who supported the application for this very important debate and the Backbench Business Committee for granting it. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth), who chairs the all-party parliamentary group on Ireland and the Irish in Britain, for her support and her ongoing work championing the Irish diaspora in Britain.

As we know, the feast of St Patrick will be celebrated on Sunday. Here in the UK, we will be celebrating the strong cultural, political and business ties between Britain and Ireland, and the immense contribution of the Irish diaspora in Britain—and what a contribution it continues to be. Niall Gallagher, the chairman of Irish Heritage, has described the contribution of the Irish to cultural life in the UK as “incalculable”. The contribution of Irish labour to the British construction industry was described by Sir William McAlpine as “immeasurable”. As of June 2023, 13,700 members of NHS staff in England reported their nationality as Irish, including around 2,300 doctors and over 4,200 nurses. When President Higgins came to Manchester 10 years ago, he said that 55,000 directors who are Irish sit on the boards of British companies, and that number is even bigger today. The brightest and best who lay claim to an Irish heritage are smashing the glass ceiling in every aspect of working and public life, and I am proud to celebrate them today.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her kind words about the all-party group. At its meeting this week, we remembered our friend Sir Tony Lloyd and how proud he was to talk in these debates, as well as how we as a community recognise both the past and the future of the changing diaspora. Does my hon. Friend agree that, as well as recognising the diaspora’s contribution, it is important that we celebrate the generations coming forward and our continual travel across these islands as we plan for the future?

Police Service of Northern Ireland: Security and Data Protection Breach

Karin Smyth Excerpts

Monday 4th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his wise question, and I can give him that assurance. The processes behind the issuing of freedom of information answers have been very well checked and will, I am sure, be checked and checked and checked again—and, I believe, simplified, with much more senior eyes making sure that information goes out correctly.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

I was in Northern Ireland during the week after the breach, and the fact that officers continued to go out and go about their duties is a testament to them and their service. However, it is unacceptable that the job they do remains a secret from many people, and that we somehow think this is normal in Northern Ireland 25 years after the peace process; it would not be normal in any other part of the United Kingdom, or in Ireland. What is the Secretary of State doing with the co-guarantors of the peace process, the Irish Government, and those in the field more widely to deal with what is now clearly a crisis?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I personally agree entirely with the first part of what the hon. Lady has said. Policing should be much more normalised in Northern Ireland, as, indeed, life should be. However, there is an interesting, rich and troubled history in Northern Ireland that has led us to where we are now. What the Chief Constable did in introducing community policing means that the hon. Lady will be able to walk around all sorts of places and have the sense of a much more normal policing experience.

I have had conversations with my Irish counterparts, although this is very much an issue that rests with the UK Government, but everyone is interested in how freedom of information requests are now dealt with.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Karin Smyth Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Indeed. When I spoke to Dáithí earlier, I asked him whether he fancied his chances of being elected to this House and trying to put us all straight. A bit of common sense would probably go a long way in our dealings, and he and his family have displayed it in huge quantities.

Dáithí also met Mr Speaker and is now the proud owner of a Speaker teddy bear. I could make so many jokes, but I would never be called again if I went down that route. I know that he and his father Máirtín enjoyed meeting Mr Speaker. This change goes to show what can be done in politics when everybody comes together.

I will save my remarks on the technical details of the amendments for Committee, which I hope will commence shortly.

I have spoken a decent amount about the Bill’s dates and timelines, so I will conclude my remarks by noting an anniversary of which hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of the House are keenly aware—the upcoming 25th anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. Members throughout the House will doubtless join me in celebrating the progress that Northern Ireland has made since that historic agreement, which has served as an example of peacebuilding across the world. Looking back on the signing of the agreement, and the great strides that Northern Ireland has made since then, gives me a great deal of optimism, but I am also struck by the huge importance of delivering the functioning devolved institutions that the people of Northern Ireland endorsed by voting for it.

This Government will always seek to implement, maintain and protect the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and, as I said in my opening remarks, the restoration of the Executive therefore remains my top priority. The Bill will help to bring that about by avoiding an unwelcome election and providing space for the parties to work together to end the current impasse, but, of course, the Bill alone will not be enough to achieve that. We now need all Northern Ireland’s locally elected leaders to work together once again to make the most of the opportunity that it presents. I hope that they will take their cue from those who went before them and secured the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and display the co-operation, courage and leadership that are needed to deliver functioning devolved government in Northern Ireland.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

The British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, of which I am a vice-chair, will meet for a session in Stormont in early March—led by the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), who is not in the Chamber—bringing together people across the jurisdictions and across all parties, as happened before 1998. Those informal ties are very important, but it is also important that parliamentarians on all sides understand where we have come from and, crucially, look forward to where we are going. Will the Secretary of State endorse that aim, and encourage Members in all parts of the House to become more involved in cross-jurisdictional organisations so that we can understand each other and get ourselves out of the current impasse?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. He has many farmers and some of the largest agrifood businesses in his constituency, and I know that some of his local farmers have had problems. They cannot bring seed potatoes from Scotland and that is having an impact on the potato sector in Northern Ireland. Some of his local farmers will have experienced difficulties when taking cattle to Scotland for sale and having to bring some of them back because they have not been sold at market; they face six weeks’ quarantine in part of the UK, in Scotland, before they can bring those cattle back to Northern Ireland. That is ridiculous, and those are the kinds of practical issues that we need to resolve.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

These are indeed serious problems. I also went to that fantastic event on Monday. Many of the people I spoke to there had started their businesses in the past three to five years, since Brexit. The demand for Irish produce in Northern Ireland, across the island and internationally—it is being sold into Fortnum & Mason, and Harrods—is inspirational, and it is thriving. It is important that we celebrate those successes and the opportunities that some of us believe can come from the arrangements on offer from the EU and the negotiations that we want the Prime Minister to conclude. There is huge opportunity here and many of us want to see that for the people and the industries in Northern Ireland.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and her continuous interest in Northern Ireland, which I know comes with family connections. She is right to say that we can walk into some of the largest stores in London and find butter from Dromara in my constituency and meat from Moira in my constituency. We are so proud that we make up 3% of the UK’s population and yet we feed almost one in five of the UK through our agrifood produce, which is of the highest quality. Of course, we want to preserve and protect it. We do see the opportunity to expand and grow our business and economy, and we welcome new businesses that are starting up. However, we also need to resolve the difficulties in trade and the barriers that have been erected as a result of the protocol. We believe they are unnecessary, both in terms of protecting the single market of the EU and being harmful to protecting the internal market of the UK.

I welcome the Prime Minister’s earlier comment that we are not talking here about tinkering around the edges. As I said in my party conference speech last year, this is about not just trade across the Irish sea but the application of EU law and how it inhibits our ability to trade within the UK. Fundamentally, that is what needs to be addressed. There is no need for EU law to apply on goods that are not leaving the internal market of the UK. We look to the Government now to bring forward a solution that addresses that issue, but it must go further than that.

On numerous occasions, I have referenced what we call the “democratic deficit”, by which I mean the fact that in Northern Ireland laws apply over which we have no say and on which we have no input. That is simply not acceptable. The Belfast agreement talks about the political and economic rights of the people of Northern Ireland. I would argue strongly that the protocol undermines our political and economic rights—specifically, our rights to legislate for the people who elect us. Although I understand the frustration that the Secretary of State mentioned in his speech about the non-functioning of the Executive, I want to be clear that, if the Executive are to function again, it cannot be on the basis that we are law takers.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Karin Smyth Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 23rd January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising that point, but I hope he will not mind my saying that today’s Bill is a technical Bill to put on a legal basis the written ministerial statement laid before the House last year, and I am reluctant to get into particular decisions. However, I think every Member of this House will know that agency staff are very expensive and it would be much more preferable to avoid their use.

I do not propose to waste the House’s time by going through every detail of every clause on Second Reading—I will come back to that in Committee—but in summarising the Bill I want first to thank Opposition Members, in particular those on the Front Benches, for the approach that they take to these matters. I know they do not hesitate to hold the Secretary of State and me to account, but equally when necessary measures need to be taken, they are constructive, for which I am grateful because this Bill is about making sure that public services can be provided in Northern Ireland.

The Bill will place the Budget that the Secretary of State outlined to the House in his written ministerial statement on 24 November 2022 on a legal footing. It will also allow Departments and other listed public bodies to continue to deliver public services into the first half of the 2023-24 financial year through a vote on account. I do not propose to repeat the contents of that written ministerial statement, which set out the respective allocations reflected in this Bill; what I will say is that those Budget allocations were developed as a result of extensive and sustained engagement with the Northern Ireland civil service. I want to thank again the Northern Ireland civil service, and indeed our own officials in the Northern Ireland Office, for working with great passion and at great pace to work through this Budget; it was inspirational to see and I am particularly grateful to our senior leadership team for the way it rose to the occasion.

The Secretary of State has met Sir Robert Chote, the chair of the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, and has received a range of representations from public groups and individuals. We have prioritised spending in health and education, with an overarching objective of protecting the most vulnerable: this Budget increases education spending by just under £300 million and delivers a £786 million increase in non-covid-related health spending.

The challenges that all Departments now face are due to the repeated failure of previous Northern Ireland Executives to take strategic decisions to reform public services and deliver sustainable finances. When Ministers left office in October, the Department of Education, the Department of Health and several other Departments were set to overspend significantly, with no plan in place to address that. The best solution for Northern Ireland’s health, education and other public services is a functional and effective devolved Government taking much-needed decisions to place those public services on a sustainable footing.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

Like many Members of this House, I will be immediately affected, through immediate family, by the Bill’s provisions on education and on health, with the collapse of a care contract in my family this year because of the lack of budgets in the voluntary sector. I am afraid that the Minister is speaking as if none of this were the Government’s fault. Although of course it is up to devolved Members to create an Assembly, over the past six years they have been unable to function as they would in Wycombe or Bristol because of the situation with Brexit, the discussions on the protocol and so on.

This afternoon’s debate is like living in some kind of fantasy land. That is not acceptable from the Government. The very least that they could do is advise us how quickly they will act to resolve the issues around the protocol so that the parties can get back around the table, because the two things are not separable.

[Mr Baker]

I am grateful that the hon. Lady finished with an encouragement to resolve the issues in the protocol. I have to tell her that I think the sense among all parties at the moment—including the Government of Ireland, the parties represented here in the House, Ministers and the European Union—is that we all want a deal. We want to move on. We want a deal that respects the legitimate interests of Unionism, that keeps the whole UK together and out of the European Union, that respects the Acts of Union and so on. My sense is that through much-improved constructive relations between the UK and Ireland and the European Union, we may well be able to get a deal, but I have to say to people watching this debate that right now there is no deal on the table. There is a large gap to be bridged, and we are working intensively to do just that.

With respect to the hon. Lady’s earlier remarks, she knows as well as I do what the devolution settlement is. I can tell her that the responsibility that we bear certainly sits heavily on the shoulders not only of Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office, but of our officials. She will know that our officials often have friends and family in Northern Ireland or who come from Northern Ireland; I am grateful that she acknowledges that. All those people, I dare say, will feel as acutely as she does the implications of the situations that she has set out. She will know that it is very difficult today to see a Government moving into direct rule. In the absence of direct rule, we simply must make progress on the protocol.

As we approach the anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, I really hope that this exchange will be heard in the European Union, because we all want to be able to celebrate that agreement and 25 years of peace—and to celebrate it with the Executive up and running. DUP Members have made it very clear what is on the table, and I think that it is a moment of considerable gravity for us all. But in terms of the real effects on everyday people in Northern Ireland: yes, I am acutely aware.

In conclusion, the Bill is essential to deliver spending for Northern Ireland Departments within the Budget limits that have been set. It will not be an easy task; it will take place in difficult circumstances. People in Northern Ireland rightly expect to see decisions being taken in Stormont, and I agree. Once again, I must state my continued disappointment that it is necessary for the Government to step in and legislate for this Budget, and once again I urge the Northern Ireland parties to find a way back to forming a Government. However, until a functioning Executive returns, the Bill will allow public services to continue functioning and help to protect public finances in Northern Ireland. I therefore commend it to the House.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Karin Smyth Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Mr Deputy Speaker, the scope of the Bill is about the government of Northern Ireland. If the government of Northern Ireland cannot function because of the protocol, we need to identify the problems that the protocol is creating.

I say to the Secretary of State and the Government that I think the United Kingdom has been accommodating in its negotiating objectives, as have we. The UK Government and Unionists both accepted from the outset of the debate that there could not be a hard border on the island of Ireland. Let us really think about that for a moment. The United Kingdom accepted, and we accepted, that using the place where customs checks normally take place, which is on the international frontier, would be disruptive to the political process and to the co-operation required to operate the political institutions in Northern Ireland—and what did the European Union do? It pocketed that accommodation and drove for an Irish sea border that it knew full well would have the effect on the Unionist community that a hard border would have on the nationalist community. I say it again: I agree with the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon that the European Union has a responsibility to put right what was done wrong in relation to the protocol.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman and I are both members of the EU-UK Parliamentary Assembly, which met recently to highlight our current problems. He and I may disagree on this, but it was the then British Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), who actually proposed the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill as a solution to the problem that the Government had got themselves into, and I think we should be laying the blame squarely there.

The issue, as was said in the Parliamentary Assembly and as we all know, is problematic now, but the real problem for future trust is the future relationship. We have still not heard from the UK Government—from one voice in the Conservative party—what sort of realignments, changes and newfound freedoms they want, and that is going to create more problems on the island of Ireland, for all communities. It would be helpful if we could hear from the Government how they see the future relationship operating once we get through the current one. We are not that far apart at the moment, but the fear is that we will be very far apart in the not so distant future.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The hon. Lady has made an important point. Let me say at this stage that I applaud the Government for introducing the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, because somebody had to do something. Somebody had to make the first move, and the Bill has at least brought the European Union to the point at which they are back at the negotiating table, and perhaps adopting a more realistic approach. However, we have yet to see that manifest itself in the form of agreement, and we need to see progress being made.

Why is progress important? Progress is important because coming down the track is a major piece of legislation which will, in my opinion, greatly exacerbate the current difficulty: the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill. Why will that exacerbate the problem? Because Northern Ireland will be excluded from large swathes of the Bill, as it is not possible to remove EU regulations in Northern Ireland that are linked to the protocol, the changes that will made to law in Great Britain will leave Northern Ireland further behind in terms of regulatory alignment within the UK internal market. This will greatly enhance the divide between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. It will lead to regulatory divergence. Therefore time is of the essence, but time is also of the essence because the EU is coming forward with new regulations every week, and those regulations apply to Northern Ireland.

Let me give an important example. The EU is proposing a new regulation on human organs and tissues, which will apply to Northern Ireland but not to Great Britain. What does that mean? It means that unless Great Britain adopts the changes that will be brought about by this new regulation, when Northern Ireland patients are hoping for organ transplants or blood transfusions, special blood products or organs will have to be brought from Great Britain. That presents us with a major problem. Because there will no longer be regulatory alignment between the rules on organ transplants in Great Britain and those in Northern Ireland, there will no longer be regulatory alignment in respect of the use of blood products coming from Great Britain for use in the health service in Northern Ireland. This regulation is coming forward: it has already been the subject of scrutiny by the European Scrutiny Committee in this House.

That is just one small example of how further EU regulation will cause Northern Ireland to diverge further from Great Britain, and will present real and practical issues that are about not just trade, but the health and wellbeing of every single citizen in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland Elections

Karin Smyth Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

There were a number of questions on this at oral questions, but I am not sure if my right hon. Friend was in his place. The Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill is about to have its Second Reading in the other place, and I look forward to working with everyone to make sure it gets to the right place. Lots of people are not happy with that Bill, and I tried to explain to the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) earlier that it will never please everyone. However, I believe we can improve that Bill through the parliamentary process in the other place to encompass both its critics and its supporters. That will make the Bill a whole lot better.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

The British-Irish relationship has been somewhat problematic for a couple of centuries, rather than just since 2006. The Secretary of State is in for a long haul. This is the easy bit, because we have not yet diverged from the European Union. Brexit has divided the island and, as the UK seeks to diverge, there will be more problems of this nature. He referred to the three strands of the Good Friday agreement, and he needs to make sure those three strands are fully implemented to help us through both this crisis and the forthcoming crisis. What action does he propose to take with regard to strands 2 and 3?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I intend to spend a lot of time working on all three strands. I would like to think the hon. Lady has already noticed a complete change in tone, emphasis and friendship between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the United Kingdom. How we work is based on respect and trust, which is what I intend to bring to all my relationships both with institutions based on the three strands and with those outside the strands.

Oral Answers to Questions

Karin Smyth Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point out that our £617 investment in city and growth deals presents an historic opportunity to generate innovation and growth across Northern Ireland. He is also right to say that we need a functioning Executive to drive forward that delivery.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

This morning I met members of East Border Region, a cross-party, cross-border local authority-led organisation delivering peace and prosperity across the border. Will the Minister agree to meet them to discuss the work they have done over the past 50 years?

[Mr Baker]

Certainly, I would be glad to meet them. If the hon. Lady will write to me, we will take that up.

Northern Ireland Protocol

Karin Smyth Excerpts

Wednesday 21st July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I recognise and believe that both vice-president Maroš Šefčovič and the wider EU want an outcome that is good for the people of Northern Ireland, as well as, obviously, protecting and defending their own single market. What we are saying is that to do that let us work together to get a solution that means we can deal with the issues that are fundamentally undermining the protocol, affecting its sustainability and detrimentally affecting the people of Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: for peace, prosperity and sustainability, it is in everybody’s interest to get a positive outcome to the negotiations.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab) [V]]

Trade is the way to the peace and prosperity we need to see in Northern Ireland, and it is ready to make the best of both worlds. This issue needs to be resolved very quickly. The Secretary of State chooses his words very carefully. I think this afternoon he has told us that he respects the epidemiological unit of the island of Ireland and that, in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), the agreement being sought will avoid the need for a veterinary agreement and make it redundant. Is the agreement that the Secretary of State is now seeking a single agreement across the island of Ireland and the island of Britain?

[Brandon Lewis]

The agreement we are seeking is one that recognises that Northern Ireland is fundamentally part of the UK internal market. That means not only the goods which at the moment can move unfettered from Northern Ireland to Great Britain, but getting to a point where goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, to be used and consumed in Northern Ireland, are also able to flow freely. We fully recognise the need to deal with checks and issues for products that are moving into Ireland, and therefore the EU and the single market. We will continue to do that. We think there is a realistic, practical and pragmatic way to do that, so that we avoid all those goods, including from companies that do not even trade within Ireland, having still to go through the same checks as if they were going into the single market. That is just not sustainable. It is not right for businesses and it is not right for consumers in Northern Ireland.

Ballymurphy Inquest Findings

Karin Smyth Excerpts

Thursday 13th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments, which I know will be genuine and hopefully well received across Northern Ireland in terms of the need for people to come together. It is right that this week and at this moment in time we are focused on the pain, loss and suffering that the families and the victims of Ballymurphy have experienced for far, far too long. He is right that we must also remember that more than 3,500 people were killed and tens of thousands of people were injured, with families affected across Northern Ireland and beyond, the majority of whom were innocent civilians.

By far the majority of our armed forces acted with honour and focus, and Ballymurphy just highlights what a tragic period in the history of this country the troubles were and why it is so important that we work together, recognising some of the very difficult, painful compromises that have been made over the past few decades to deliver the Good Friday agreement and the peace and prosperity that Northern Ireland has seen since. That should be treasured, and it is something we need to build on and deliver on in the future.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

When I speak to people about Northern Ireland, I apply a simple test, which is, “What if this happened in Bristol, and not Belfast?” Much like the people of Belfast, the people of Bristol sometimes wish they had a different Prime Minister, but he is their Prime Minister, for those of all faiths and none and those of all persuasions and none. As their Prime Minister, it is a disgrace that he is not here to make this statement from that Dispatch Box. He should have done that earlier this week. We all know the symbolism of these Benches and that Dispatch Box.

The Prime Minister has said that he wants to learn from the experience of the past, so I say gently to him that the experience of the past 100 years is that when a British Prime Minister ignores what is going on in Northern Ireland, we see a difficult situation that does not improve. Some of the things he has now said are deeply problematic, such as unilaterally pulling away the Stormont House agreement. If that is the case, he very quickly needs to come here with the Irish Government and all the political parties involved and tell us what will be in its place. That is the true apology that would be right for those poor families from Ballymurphy and across this whole tragedy.

[Brandon Lewis]

I am afraid that what the hon. Lady has just outlined is wrong on a number of points. Apart from the things that I have outlined, the Prime Minister is in contact with the Ballymurphy families directly, and there is the statement he made yesterday and the conversation he had with the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister yesterday.

My point has actually been that I think the principles of Stormont House are hugely important. There is a range of things there that we need to deliver on. The reality is that since 2014 that has not happened, for a range of reasons. There have been learnings, and things have changed since then. There has been a consultation that we need to reflect on and deliver on. We need to make sure that we can deliver on those principles and get on with it, rather than being another seven years down the line with people still talking about something at a time when we are losing people and families are not getting the information that they deserve. At the heart of what we want to do is making sure that we are leading to delivering for victims and that we have reconciliation for people across Northern Ireland. [Interruption.]

Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021

Karin Smyth Excerpts

Monday 26th April 2021 General Committees

[Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con)]

The regulations, if passed, will compel Northern Ireland Health Ministers to commission abortion services in line with the legal framework outlined in the 2020 regulations. Abortion is a devolved issue, and the only legal or moral basis for the 2019 intervention by the UK Government was that there was no sitting Northern Ireland Assembly at that time. As we are all aware, that is no longer the case, and the Assembly has shown itself to be perfectly competent in developing its own legislation. I believe therefore that there is no longer any justification for the UK Government to impose the regulations.

Pressing ahead, as we are doing today, is a breach of the Belfast agreement and weakens the trust and respect upon which devolution is founded. Not only does the legislation threaten the devolution agreement, but the nature of the regulations shows disregard for the democratic will of the Northern Irish people. Every MP representing Northern Ireland who took their seat in Westminster voted against the 2020 regulations, and the Northern Ireland Assembly opposes the regulations. When the people of Northern Ireland were consulted on the regulations last year, 80% rejected them. I, as an English Conservative MP, have a free vote on this legislation; the people of Northern Ireland and their representatives have no vote at all.

Not so very long ago, members of the Government campaigned passionately to take back control. The British people have rejected the rule of a remote Brussels, preferring to make our own laws according to our own British values and customs. In 2005, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the UK’s blanket ban on prisoner voting contravened international law and must be rectified. Parliament refused, upholding our UK belief—enshrined in statute since 1870—that those who do not abide by the law of the land do not have the right to vote. Parliament never conceded, and 15 years later, we left the EU with our sovereignty intact.

Prisoner voting is not as emotive an issue as abortion, but it is a conscience issue all the same. How can the UK Government, with integrity and without hypocrisy, impose legislation against the democratic will and values of communities in Northern Ireland when they have spent so long resisting similar attacks on our own sovereignty by the EU?

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

I am slightly confused by what the hon. Member is saying. The Minister in Northern Ireland has said that the law is the law, and that he has put forward to the Northern Ireland Executive provisions to enact the law, but they have refused, so I am not entirely sure what she means when she says that they have been doing so. They have absolutely not done so, which is why we are here.

[Miriam Cates]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I understand that the regulations are law as things stand, but I will urge the Government later in my contribution to repeal section 9, which I believe is the right and moral thing to do.

It would be one thing for this legislation to bring Northern Ireland’s abortion framework in line with that for Great Britain, but the measures go beyond Great Britain equivalents. They mandate an abortion regime that is quite unrestricted and, I believe, unsafe. Unlike in England and Wales, there will be no requirement for two doctors to certify, and abortion will be routinely available at GP’s surgeries rather than only in restricted places. Although I appreciate the Government’s requirement for safeguards, the regulations could permit sex-selective abortion by default, as they allow abortion for any reason until 12 weeks’ gestation.

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[Carla Lockhart]

I am sorry; I really do want to make progress.

Northern Ireland has been overruled not because of a human rights imperative, but because the majority of Members of Parliament have decided to overrule the wishes of the people of and representatives in Northern Ireland. In that context, the Government have to confront another dimension of the sovereignty of Parliament: the fact that no Parliament can bind its successors. Most GB MPs who were persuaded to vote for section 9 thought that they were voting for a measure for the time when there was no functioning Assembly. As custodians of the Union, rather than welcoming the restoration of Stormont by imposing more regulations on us through a power that rests on what can only be described as a humiliating majority, the Government should read the introduction to the Act in which section 9 is located, which states that it makes certain changes

“subject to the formation of an Executive”.

Now that the Executive have reformed and the timeframe of the Act has passed, rather than saying, “There is nothing we can do apart from introduce new regulations,” the Government should do the responsible, Union-affirming thing, which is to recognise that times have changed, that Stormont has been restored, and that the Parliament that voted for section 9 no longer exists. In that context, it is incumbent on the Secretary of State not to place the Union under the intolerable pressure of yet more regulations resting on the anti-Northern Ireland majority of 9 July 2019, but to ask this new Parliament to repeal section 9.

[Karin Smyth]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. I have listened to her talk a great deal about this undermining the Union. How does she feel that 1,000 women a year seeking refuge in Britain strengthens the Union? We were proud to support those women in their hour of need, but surely it is time for Northern Ireland to take on its responsibilities as a mature society and support its own people.

[The Chair]

Before we move on, I remind all Members please to wear masks when they are not speaking, unless there is a reason not to.

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[Karin Smyth]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle. He spoke very eloquently about the experience of so many people in that last Parliament who perhaps had not been to Northern Ireland, as I have been in the last 30 years. They suddenly saw something in the United Kingdom that was completely abhorrent to them. People had their minds changed.

I welcome the measures and commend the work by the Minister and the Secretary of State, who have also heard those stories and were shocked by what they saw—we heard that from the Secretary of State at the Dispatch Box recently. I cannot believe we are here again. The reason we are here is that every obstacle has been put in the way to prevent women in Northern Ireland from being trusted to choose the best care option for themselves, their families and their loved ones. The message to the women in Northern Ireland who relived their trauma to many of us and tried to educate people in the rest of the UK, to women who are desperately in need of a service, and to women in the future, is this: whatever the pretext, whatever the prevarication, whatever politicking is going on, you have been heard. Right is on your side and the law is the law. You are part of the United Kingdom, a country that proudly supports the reproductive rights of women and girls across the globe, and proudly recognises those rights as a basic human right. This country will support those rights at home in Northern Ireland.

I thank the healthcare professionals who continue to support women in the most difficult of circumstances. Whatever one thinks of the campaigns of politicians over the past 50 years, including those of my party, who turned a blind eye to the situation in Northern Ireland, refused to engage and used various reasons not to support those women, that situation has ended. There has been no concern for human life for the women who travelled; it was just cruel. During a pandemic, it is even more cruel and barbaric. The situation we find ourselves in is not acceptable, but given the political dynamics in Northern Ireland, it is perhaps understandable. We should try to support legislators there to find a way through, but ultimately our obligation is to women.

The Minister of Health, who has had a difficult job during the pandemic—I commend him for the work he has done—in a response to Paula Bradshaw MLA stated the position very clearly. I do not have time to read it now for the record, but it is very clear. The thing that astonished me in his statement is that he said:

“My Department does not dispute that women in Northern Ireland are legally entitled to abortion services. The legal advice that was received by my Department states that the Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2020 do not require my Department to commission the relevant services.”

There is no dispute that the law is the law; the dispute is whether the Minister should commission a service. The Northern Ireland Executive have not taken any decisions; that is what I mean by prevarication. This situation, led by people who simply do not support abortion services, could go on for a great deal of time. It has already been more than 50 years. How much longer do we think it is acceptable for Britain to receive these women, particularly in the circumstances of covid, and not somehow find a way to resolve the situation in Northern Ireland? What the Secretary of State is bringing here today is a way forward to try to resolve that impasse, which is why we have to support it.

There are many voices, although those from Northern Ireland might not be here today. Those of us who have worked on this issue for many years know of them. I was proud to be part of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly’s investigation into cross-jurisdictional issues under the chairmanship of Lord Dubs. It looked at issues that affect all parts of the United Kingdom family. A particular issue that we need to address is the very late, very tragic terminations for women, because the clinical expertise does not exist. Those are the sorts of issues that we need to concentrate on. We need to support clinicians to support healthcare for women.

We heard from a doctor in the Western Health and Social Care Trust, who talked about his 37-year career and the dreadful, stressful situation due to a lack of support. He is trying to keep the trust’s sexual and reproductive healthcare services running during a pandemic. The women who have had early medical abortion services are truly supportive of the work we have done so far, but clinicians are clear that commissioning is vital, and it is actually quite simple.

The hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) could not travel here today, but as an MP from Northern Ireland, he says:

“It remains a major frustration and concern that some Ministers in the Executive feel they are above the law, as is evidenced by the requirement even to direct the First Minister and deputy First Minister to take action.

On behalf of the pro-choice majority in Northern Ireland, I urge committee members to support the new regulations.”

We have to avoid any more situations where women are travelling or having to relive their trauma in a court case. I find it abhorrent, as do those of us who have met some of those women. Let me address just one issue relating to motherhood. There are many women who already are mothers or are desperate to be mothers but, because of their clinical situation, are forced to carry a child who will die on delivery, and are forced to travel to Britain to do that. Often, they are forced to travel and to bring their foetal remains in boxes, and they are stopped at the border—

[Miriam Cates]

rose—

[Karin Smyth]

I will finish the point in a moment.

There was no attempt by those people who speak about the situation in Northern Ireland to help those women with the transfer of foetal remains, or indeed to support women knowingly giving birth to a baby who will die. I will now give way.

[Miriam Cates]

I do not disagree that there are women in appalling situations, such as the ones the hon. Lady has just described, and my heart goes out to them. The point I made in my speech was that the regulations reach into the state’s view of motherhood and that implicit in those CEDAW paragraphs is that motherhood is a negative issue. I have no doubt that for many women who choose abortion in the UK—in GB—each year, it is the fact that there is not the support available to become a mother that is the issue, and that is where we should focus our efforts.

[Karin Smyth]

We do not have time to debate this issue now, but it is a well-debated issue. However, of the people whom we are talking about, many of them do not choose for many reasons—that is their choice, in my view; the hon. Lady and I disagree about that—to continue a pregnancy, for whatever reason. Of course, what this process catches—it is why it is cruel and barbaric—is also those women who are desperate to have a family, but their child is going to die. They are carrying back those foetal remains in the most barbaric of circumstances. Nobody had concern for those women. In conclusion—

[Carla Lockhart]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Karin Smyth]

I will finish; I need to finish now. Practical steps are needed. In Britain, for example, there are many good examples of third-sector provision of sexual health services. I have pressed the Minister on this issue before. We need to learn the lessons about sexual health services from the rest of Britain. For over 20 years, we have been commissioning third-sector providers to run our sexual health services in Britain and I think that Northern Ireland deserves that quality of service.

I echo the points made by the right hon. Member for Basingstoke, because the CEDAW recommendations do not just apply to abortion; they apply to sexual health services and education, particularly for young people, in general. When we hear so much currently about violence against women and girls, and the prevalence of pornography and so on in images for young people and how young people are targeted, there is real and deep concern about education provision for young people in Northern Ireland, and how they will understand their own sexual health, and how we ensure that they have a good attitude to sexual health and relationships. That is more crucial now after the pandemic than it was before, and these regulations also allow us to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Hayes]

My right hon. Friend is right; the Government’s best course of action is to repeal the changes that were made when there was no devolution settlement. There is the prospect of further legal challenge, which I would certainly strongly support given all the things I said earlier about the 1998 Act establishing the devolution settlement; about the fact that this has been described again today by a Committee of this Parliament as being unprecedented; and about the basis on which the Assembly was reassembled and its legal underpinning. What we are doing today is highly questionable and I recommend that the Government think again.

The Minister says that Northern Ireland has some opportunity to interpret the regulations and come forward with its own settlement that stays within the law but does not go as far as some would want. That is true. Northern Ireland can come forward with a settlement, but these regulations are effectively a gun to the head of the people of Northern Ireland, saying, “Either you do what we want by your own decision or we will decide for you.” I hesitate to say anything critical of the Minister because I regard him highly, but it is a slightly deceptive argument to suggest that the Northern Irish can sort this out when a gun is being placed against their heads.

Not for nothing are many people in Northern Ireland very proud of the “One Hundred Thousand” report, confirmed by the Advertising Standards Authority as showing that probably 100,000 people are alive in Northern Ireland today who would not be had the Province embraced the Abortion Act 1967.

Moreover, when talking about the sovereignty of Parliament we must recall that a key aspect is that no Parliament can bind its successors. Section 9 was passed in a Bill the introduction of which defined its purpose in terms of the restoration of the Executive. That was in a previous Parliament and it could have been—it would and should have been—this Government’s course of action to say, “That was then and now is now.” A different Parliament and a different set of arrangements in Northern Ireland necessitates a different approach. That would not have been unreasonable given what I said about the need to maintain the integrity of devolution.

Rather than asking Parliament to pass these regulations, the Government should recognise the current reality and instead ask our new Parliament to welcome the restoration of the Assembly and to repeal section 9, as I said in response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke. In making that point, I would say to the advocates of abortion that that would be a debate to have across the House, but more especially in Northern Ireland. If those who want abortion to be more widely available in Northern Ireland make their case and persuade their elected representatives to share that view, living in a democratic kingdom, the majority view will prevail.

It is important to say that the regulations are of course about abortion and its availability in the Province, but they are about something much more: how much we value devolved decision making, how much we respect the different opinions that prevail in different parts of this kingdom and how much we really believe that the sovereignty of this Parliament is enhanced when we are big enough to say that people in different parts of the kingdom can come to different conclusions from the majority view here.

Do we care so little about the distinct regional identities of our Union, unless we take exactly the same approach to abortion in Northern Ireland as in the rest of the United Kingdom, that we would extinguish people’s opinions and eliminate the majority view there? Are we to honour devolution only when those to whom we give power agree with us? Will the Government be content to build their future on past mistakes? Is this an Administration who listen, or do they dictate?

To misunderstand the salience of those questions, or the significance of the answers, would be among the worst political miscalculations of any Conservative Government since the Union began in 1707. As we sit under the gaze of Joseph Chamberlain—

[Karin Smyth]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir John Hayes]

Before I come to my exciting conclusion, of course I give way.

[Karin Smyth]

The Act of Union 1707 did not apply to Ireland, only to Scotland.

[Sir John Hayes]

That is true, but I did not claim otherwise. I said this would be one of the biggest mistakes since then.

As we sit under the gaze of Joseph Chamberlain, the radical who in the end became allied to the Conservative Government, and who always put conviction above convenience, perhaps today members of the Committee should put principle and conviction first, not convenience, and think again about the regulations. I invite Conservative members of the Committee—and, I hope, members across it—to oppose the regulations because that would send a signal to Government to think again, to listen, to redraw their plans and to behave in a way that maintains our Union, respects devolution and shows that, rather than ploughing ahead regardless, the Government are sensitive to the wishes and interests of the people in every part of the United Kingdom.

[Mr Walker]

Thank you, Mr Hosie, for your patient chairmanship of the Committee.

We have heard a wide range of strongly held personal views and varied contributions on all aspects of the regulations from Members representing all parties. I thank the hon. Member for Pontypridd, who speaks for the Opposition, for her constructive approach to the debate and our previous engagement on the issue. I particularly commend the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke; the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North, who has spoken passionately on the issue for a long time; my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle; and the hon. Member for Bristol South, who used to face me across the Committee.

My closing remarks will address several of the points made during the debate. I recognise the strength of the speeches of the hon. Member for Upper Bann, my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stockbridge, and my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings, who is never knowingly understated, but who, as ever, spoke powerfully.

While some people might wish to use the opportunity to reopen the discussion on the framework established by the 2020 regulations, as my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings did for a large part of his speech, that time has passed and we are focused on ensuring that the legal right of women and girls to access full abortion services in Northern Ireland is implemented. Let me be absolutely clear that we are not proposing to repeal section 9 of the EF Act. Although we have heard in the debate from some who would like to do that, they are in a small minority in the House and in the Conservative party. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle pointed out, there was a five to one majority in favour of the Act, as amended. It remains our preference that, this now being the law of the United Kingdom, the Department of Health should drive forward the commissioning of abortion services, with the support of the Executive, and we will continue to work to see whether progress can be made on the ground in Northern Ireland before the Secretary of State has to consider issuing a direction.

We all recognise that abortion is a hugely emotive subject, but we must not lose sight of the women and girls in Northern Ireland who are at the heart of the matter. It is unacceptable that there are women and girls in any part of the United Kingdom who cannot access these fundamental rights. That is a decision that was taken by the House of Commons in enacting the previous regulations and the EF Act. Even though the law was changed 12 months ago, services have still not been commissioned in full, leaving many women and girls in vulnerable situations.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke made clear the concerns of health professionals at the lack of commissioning. I thank the Northern Ireland abortion and contraception taskforce for its report. The CEDAW report and its recommendations require that evidence-based protocols are adopted in the provision of services in Northern Ireland. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has also published guidance to help medical professionals. I strongly urge the Department of Health to engage with both groups on the practical issues outlined in their reports.

I have spoken personally to many women and healthcare professionals in Northern Ireland, and some of their experiences are truly harrowing. Many women and girls still have to travel to other parts of the United Kingdom to access the care that should be available to them. One story of which I was informed was of a wanted pregnancy where, sadly, doctors told the mother that the baby would not survive outside the womb. The woman had to travel to London without a network of family support in order to access abortion care. She described to me a harrowing ordeal—unable to travel back on a flight home because of complications with bleeding, stranded in London, alone, grieving and in pain. I have also been made aware that two women have attempted suicide in the past year after their flights were cancelled and they were unable to travel to England.

The distress and the circumstances that women and girls continue to face when local access should be readily available, given that the law changed over a year ago, are unacceptable. It is only right that women and girls in Northern Ireland can make individual, informed decisions with proper patient care and provision of information, and with support from medical professionals, based on their own health and other circumstances—similar to women and girls living elsewhere in the UK.

The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North made an important point about funding for voluntary services. I have made it clear that we would expect to see that in place before the summer recess so that we can avoid the use of a direction. We want the Executive to move forward on it.

We have heard understandable concerns about respecting the importance of the devolved institutions. I have been clear repeatedly about our desire to work with the Executive, the Department of Health and the Assembly to ensure that the regulations are implemented effectively in a way that works for Northern Ireland, but, after more than a year, it has become clear that without further steps being taken, that would not happen. Even at this stage, we do not wish to have to use the power of direction and we will pause, following the conclusion of the Committee, to give the Department of Health another opportunity to implement the regulations. If we see real evidence of commissioning of a CEDAW-compliant regime, and support for the provision of advice and guidance ahead of the summer, there is no reason a direction should be required. If we do not, we will have no choice other than to meet our legal obligations.

We have already given the Executive and the Department of Health a year to move forward with commissioning services, following the abortion regulations coming into effect last March, and we are disappointed that no progress has been made. We continue to give the Executive, the Minister of Health and his Department further time to move forward on their own terms. Should the Committee approve the regulations on the power of direction, we will pause and give them one final opportunity to make progress on commissioning services. However, we will not let progress be drawn out indefinitely.

We want to see concrete progress towards the commissioning of abortion services before the summer recess. If that is not achieved, we will not hesitate to issue a direction immediately so that the rights of women and girls are properly upheld, and they can have safe and lawful access to abortion services in Northern Ireland.

I have been asked to estimate the number of people who have had to travel. I note that over 1,100 women and girls have been able to access local services since April last year. That should not be overlooked when services have not been formally commissioned. We have seen a significant reduction in the number of women and girls having to travel over the past nine to 12 months, and we appreciate that, while covid has played a part in that, the change to the law in Northern Ireland and local access have also been key.

We expect that the Department of Health and Social Care will publish the figures for people who have had to travel as standard practice over the coming months. Tempting though it is, I do not wish to estimate—I want the figures. We know that the number is significantly lower than before, but any number at this stage is too many.

[Karin Smyth]

I appreciate the difficulty, but that is really disappointing. Coming out of the pandemic, flights are beginning to be scheduled, but they are getting more expensive, and it will be more difficult for women to travel as families try to reunite across these islands and society begins to reopen. It will be another four to five months—between now and some point in the summer, if something happens—with really difficult travelling circumstances and more women in distress. Is that date as much as we can get from the Minister today?

[Mr Walker]

I recognise the strength of the hon. Lady’s feelings and the fact that she is pushing for the most rapid delivery. It is our preference that the Executive and the Minister of Health move forward with this at once, and that they act on what is already in place so that the requirement to travel can be removed as soon as possible. We want to give the Executive every opportunity to do this themselves without being directed, so there will be a pause.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke made an important point about education. She is right that the CEDAW report’s requirements, the regulations and the EF Act require us to go beyond the area of health. Sexual and reproductive health education is an important component in ensuring that women and girls are well informed of the choices available to them. One of the recommendations in the CEDAW report, which we must ensure is implemented, is to make age-appropriate, comprehensive and scientifically accurate education on sexual and reproductive health and rights a compulsory component of the curriculum for adolescents, covering the prevention of early pregnancy and access to abortion, and to monitor its implementation.

The implementation of that recommendation falls into an area for which Northern Ireland’s Department of Education has responsibility. We have written to the Minister and continue to work with the Department to ensure appropriate implementation in Northern Ireland, but I would point out that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, as part of its work for this year and in accordance with that recommendation, will publish a report on the provision of education services in Northern Ireland.

The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North asked about telemedicine. As she will recognise, the temporary approval made in England under the abortion legislation Act cannot be extended to Northern Ireland, but the power was placed in legislation to enable the Northern Ireland Minister of Health to consider other appropriate settings. In this jurisdiction, during the covid situation, that power has been used under UK legislation. I have certainly urged the Minister to consider that, but it needs to be looked at as part of the wider package of the Executive and the Department of Health accepting their responsibilities for this and using the powers available to them.

My right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings mentioned the Constitution Committee. I recognise that, to some extent, we are in unprecedented territory, but I agree with the Committee’s conclusion that the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive should engage in a constructive manner. The Secretary of State is under a clear legal duty under section 9 of the EF Act to ensure that all the CEDAW recommendations are implemented in Northern Ireland—a duty that was placed on him by the House of Commons. However, we have been repeatedly clear about our desire to work with the Executive, the Department of Health and the Assembly to ensure that the regulations are implemented effectively in a way that works for Northern Ireland. It remains our preference for them to deliver on that and to move forward with the full commissioning of services in line with the regulations. That is why we are giving them every opportunity to act on the matter.

I conclude by saying that I have no desire to be here today. Like the hon. Member for Bristol South, I cannot believe that we are here again. The House set out the law and delivered a single compliant set of regulations for Northern Ireland over a year ago. At every stage, we have sought to get those regulations delivered through the proper devolved channels, and the power that the regulations will grant provides a mechanism to unblock the political obstacles that have been placed in the way of their delivery. I therefore commend the regulations to the Committee.

Question put,