Criminal Justice Bill

Julie Marson Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 28th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate and to accept the Home Secretary’s invitation to get behind this Bill, because there is much to commend in it. The process is an iterative one, as it builds on so much work that the Government have already done on crime and on the criminal justice system. I was honoured and pleased to serve on the Public Bill Committee that considered the Domestic Abuse Bill, enacted in 2021, and an example of a further improvement in the Criminal Justice Bill is the addition of an aggravating feature to reflect the crimes of men whose control of their partners ends with the heinous crime of murder.

As I say, this is very much an iterative process, and there is much to like in the Bill, such as the way it bears down on drug crime; the way it bears down on knife crime; the way it bears down on sexual offending, and sexual offending against children in particular; and the way it bears down on serious organised crime. The one area that I emphatically support is the Bill’s requiring those criminals—they are cowards—who have the nerve, having committed a crime, not to face up to their victims, to attend their sentencing hearing.

As a proud daughter of a police officer, I welcome the focus on police standards, and I note that, for the vast majority of policemen, there is nothing worse than misdemeanour and criminal activity in their own ranks. I know that the vast majority of police will very much welcome that focus.

There is no such thing as a minor crime. Crime is a violation of that feeling of safety and security that we all deserve. My constituents in Hertford and Stortford certainly deserve that sense of security going about their daily business and their daily lives. Antisocial behaviour is a scourge on our communities and one that we have concerns about in Hertford and Stortford. I wish to pay tribute to my local police as well as to Chief Inspector David Cooke and all his team. They have used closure notices and closure orders, which are very useful tools.

What has been raised with me by my local police—I have also raised this with Ministers—is that we have a bit of a revolving door with closure orders. A closure order can be issued by a court, and it is very effective. The community breathes a sigh of relief, as it has respite from the problems that they have been experiencing for a period of time, but, at the end of that order, the same occupants can go back into the same property, or a similar property, and the community is left absolutely distraught—in fact even worse than the first time, because they have had a sense of relief but then the problems have recurred. Antisocial behaviour is something that we need to bear in mind because it is a blight on local communities.

The provision to extend the power to issue and to apply for closure orders to registered social housing providers is very welcome, because that helps to give extra responsibility to those providers, and it will, I think, encourage them to take the matter seriously to try to avoid that revolving door element and look for more permanent solutions, which will be hugely beneficial to local communities.

As I say, this is an iterative process, and there are opportunities in this Bill to create other criminal offences. My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Caroline Ansell), who is not in her place, raised the issue of cuckooing, which I would also like to suggest as a separate offence. Very often criminals use properties for illegal activity, and this action is not victimless, because often they move into a property—the better term for it is actually a home invasion—where there are vulnerable people, who are used as a vehicle for criminal purposes. Those people are often physically or mentally vulnerable or have addiction problems. They are real victims, and they need to be protected. Society needs to say, “We do not accept this.”

In order to measure, name and deal with a crime we have to accept it as a crime. This cruel and cynical activity should be criminalised as a separate offence. There are different offences we can use to tackle cuckooing, but those would generally be drug offences or antisocial behaviour offences, which do not reflect the gravity of the crime and the fact that there are victims. We should be saying, “We don’t accept it and we don’t tolerate it. We want to measure it and know the scale of it, so we have to name it and make it a separate offence.”

Along the same lines, another horrific crime that has no separate offence is spiking, which has been mentioned already. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) has done a lot of work on the issue already and I know he will continue to do so. It beggars belief that someone would go out and prepare to administer toxic, noxious substances to another person—usually, but not exclusively, a woman—often for sexual or control purposes. Here again we currently rely on other offences, but we must name that offence. We must see it, we must convict it and we must sentence it as the crime it is.

I sat on the bench as a magistrate many times. I saw the victims of offences and I saw how much it means to them to have their day in court—to be able to give their evidence and to have the crime that has been perpetrated against them named and recognised and sentenced. It means a huge amount to them, and it should mean everything to us. We often hear that the punishment should fit the crime but, in the case of cuckooing and spiking, it is my assertion that the crime should fit the crime and that they should be separate offences. I hope that Ministers and the Government will look at them carefully.

Oral Answers to Questions

Julie Marson Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[James Cleverly]

The hon. Gentleman makes reference to the refugee convention, but his definition is only accurate if they come directly from a place of danger. I have visited France and it is a wonderful country. I can assure the House that it is not a dangerous country.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

7. What steps he is taking to tackle violence against women and girls.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Laura Farris)]

In the last three years we have passed comprehensive new laws covering everything from domestic abuse and street harassment to online safety. Last year the Government added violence against women to the strategic policing requirement, placing it on equivalent footing to terrorism, and the Home Office’s award-winning Enough campaign is now entering its final phase with a firm focus on tackling perpetrator behaviour being rolled out across colleges and universities.

[Julie Marson]

I welcome my hon. Friend to her place. I pay tribute to Sandra Conte and her team at Future Living in Hertford for everything they do to support victims of domestic abuse. As a magistrate, I specialised in domestic abuse courts and I am utterly convinced of their value, both for justice and for victims. Will my hon. Friend share her assessment of the initiatives to increase specialisation in court processes for sexual offending and sexual violence?

[Laura Farris]

The specialist sexual violence support project is now under way in Crown courts in Leeds, Newcastle and Snaresbrook. It is at an early stage but is due to report in early 2025. However, my hon. Friend should be aware that any victim of rape or sexual assault may now take advantage of section 28 procedures, which have been rolled out nationwide to allow people to give their evidence privately and ahead of trial. We are also engaging close to 1,000 independent sexual violence advisers in the system to accompany victims every step of the way through the criminal justice system. As a result, rape prosecutions are higher today than they were in 2010 and sentences are approximately 50% longer.

English Channel Small Boats Incident

Julie Marson Excerpts

Thursday 25th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Priti Patel]

I refer the hon. Lady to my earlier comments on both those points.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

We have seen, with Afghanistan and Hong Kong, that the British people consistently react with incredible generosity of spirit towards people who are fleeing persecution, oppression and conflict. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the safe and legal routes to which she has referred consistently and which are central and integral to the Nationality and Borders Bill are vital and that they have to be the only viable route into the UK, not only to preserve life but to retain the support of the British public and the integrity of our asylum system, which is what we all want to see?

Police National Computer

Julie Marson Excerpts

Monday 18th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kit Malthouse]

No, the person from the NPCC was not incorrect, I do not believe, although the picture has evolved, it is certainly true to say, over the past few days. The information I have been given thus far is that where an individual may be on the police national computer for a number of offences over time, but on this occasion, for a particular offence, was released with no further action, it is only the information that relates to that particular offence for which there was no further action that may or may not have been deleted.

Having said that—I guess it is safe to put this caveat in—we are in the process of analysing exactly what the impact of this loss has been. Once that becomes clearer, I will be more than happy to give the hon. Gentleman and others in the House the assurance that they need or, indeed, to give the wider conclusions of what that report is telling us. These are all initial views of what we believe may well have been happening. The first phase of our recovery plan has gone well; the second phase, which is analysing what the report is telling us about this frankly huge database, will come in the next few days, and then I will be able to give more certain answers.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con) [V]]

Can my hon. Friend confirm for my constituents in Hertford and Stortford that the police national computer database is a really important tool to help our brilliant police and that, thanks to the swift action he has outlined, it remains so, notwithstanding what is an isolated incident of human error?

[Kit Malthouse]

My hon. Friend speaks the truth, which is that the police national computer sits at the heart of British policing, providing enormously helpful information to police forces across the country seeking to apprehend criminals. It is still in use—it is still being used as we speak for the reasons that it needs to be, not least because we are talking about a very small percentage of the database overall that has been affected—and that is critically why we have committed to investing in a replacement for the police national computer, which is a system that I guess is a legacy from the past. We want to ensure that the police have the best technology and the best data handling available to them, so that they can do their best to fight crime on our behalf.

Domestic Abuse and Hidden Harms during Lockdown

Julie Marson Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answers I have given previously, including in relation to the £25 million to £26 million that has already been paid out to charities.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con) [V]]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for getting to me at the end of the list.

I thank the Minister for her statement and all her work on this issue. I commend to her the work of Future Living Hertford, which does amazing work with victims of domestic abuse and their families and is running a “children’s voices” campaign to highlight the need to hear children and recognise their status as victims. Does she agree that this message is particularly important during this crisis and is completely in line with the aims of the Domestic Abuse Bill? Will she agree to visit Future Living Hertford with me when such visits are possible once more?

[Victoria Atkins]

I would be delighted to do so. I thank my hon. Friend for her work on the Bill Committee enabling us to table an amendment whereby children are included in the Bill, reflecting the impact that this abuse has on them.

Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill

Julie Marson Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 25th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Chris Green]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will pick up the point that was made about public perception, because the regulator has a role in reassuring people that the system—all elements of the forensics science area—is up to standard. The public need that reassurance.

To some extent, that goes back to the “CSI” vision in that area. Before coming here, I worked in the mass spectrometry industry and on occasion worked in forensics laboratories. Having been there, I am confident that—not being a big fan of the show—there is a world of difference between the two. The laboratory environment is incredibly focused and serious. It has many of the standards and expectations that any other laboratory environment would expect to have, whether in industry or other sorts of research, because we cannot have scientists and others contaminating samples in the lab with DNA or other samples, for example.

We have to have a clean-room environment and incredibly well-controlled samples and other materials. We hear about the negativity of single-use plastics, but in the laboratory environment it is incredibly important that people use a vial once and not on a number of occasions, because that is how we get cross-contamination.

We have to have an understanding of the quality of the science and the resources it needs because of the sensitivity of instrumentation these days. I worked in the mass spec industry for approaching 20 years, and the technology was transformed from the beginning of that time to when I left. Having been here for five years, I would now feel, in a sense, technologically redundant. I have been completely left behind. It is not just the physical technology and the electronics; it is also the software. In terms of the laboratory experience, this touches on wider concerns about data handling and how we can control and protect the enormous quantities of data that laboratories generate. We must have confidence, from beginning to end, about how the samples are gained from the crime scene, how they are processed and transferred, and how they go through the laboratory system, after which reports are written and, ultimately, presented in court.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

The whole question of confidence makes me think of rape victims, for example. The rate of conviction in this country and elsewhere for rape is shockingly low, and this question of confidence feeds into the very purpose of the Bill. The work of these laboratories is valuable, intense and professional. Does my hon. Friend agree that public knowledge about that would give victims the confidence to come forward and submit to intrusive examinations, because they know what will happen with their evidence? This is all about enforcing and reinforcing the justice system.

[Chris Green]

I agree entirely; my hon. Friend makes an important point. This legislation, and our having this debate, is incredibly important in giving victims the confidence to come forward and know that they will be looked after and supported in the right way. There would be an ongoing duty and responsibility for the Forensic Science Regulator to work to raise standards in the system, so that people can recognise that.

I have not touched much on the digital side of a forensic science laboratory’s work. I am more familiar with mass spec, high-performance liquid chromatography and the other analytical techniques that can be used. I was a member of the Science and Technology Committee from 2015 to 2017, and we went on a visit to the Laboratory of the Government Chemist in Teddington. I had worked there a little bit beforehand, but it was fascinating to see the digital side of its work. I want to give a sense of the challenge ahead and the resources required.

The police and forensic scientists have to monitor, judge, analyse and access smartphones, smart watches, iPads, computers, desktops and many other devices. All those devices have different levels of software, different editions, newer versions and different operating systems. We need to have a compliant system within the digital sphere to ensure that that analysis can be done in a way that cannot then be challenged or undermined in the court system, and it can be shown that these standards have been adhered to and in no way have the digital services interfered with or corrupted the data being drawn from these devices.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wes Streeting]

The Minister makes a very good financial case for investing in forensics. It will lead not only to better outcomes in criminal justice but potentially to cost savings from resources. That does not mean that he should wander away from the manifesto commitment to replace almost all the police officers the Government have seen away in the past decade.

[Julie Marson]

I just want to echo in a practical way what the Minister says. As a magistrate, so many times I have seen defendants in court waiting to see what evidence is submitted on the day and what witnesses turn up on the day. The cost savings, in a very practical sense, could be very real and very substantial. The Minister’s point about the forensic reliability and transparency of evidence will seep into the criminal justice system in the cost sense.

[Wes Streeting]

I am grateful for that useful insight into the practical consequences of the system not working correctly. I wish I could see it for myself: I was booked for jury service in the next two weeks, only to be told this week by the jury officer that I am on standby. If I may say so, that is good news for criminals across east London and Essex, because I come from the “tough on crime” school of the Labour party.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Craig Williams). Before I address the provisions of the Bill, I would like to echo the words of the Minister in his point of order before the debate. As I have said in the House before and no doubt will say again, my father served in the Metropolitan police for more than 30 years. He was able to retire to his family. After last night’s events, one police officer will not be able to do that. That hurts our country, it hurts this House and it hurts the police family, of which I am a part. It also underpins what we are talking about today. We send police officers out in all circumstances for all sorts of reasons, and they deserve a criminal justice system and a Forensic Science Regulator that underpin what they do and the risks they take.

I very much welcome the Bill, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) on promoting it. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) for his work and welcome the cross-party debate and work to get this Bill into law. I welcome the establishment of the Forensic Science Regulator as a statutory office holder, which underpins the service very effectively. Cost is a valid issue to debate, but the value of this to victims and also to the accused, where we can adduce evidence to prove their innocence, is worth an investment of some magnitude, particularly given the advancement of science in this area.

 I welcome the fact that the regulator will be able to exercise its functions across the justice system in England and Wales, and that the Bill includes a power for the Secretary of State to extend its remit by regulations if necessary. I also welcome the fact that the regulator will be required to publish and keep under review a code of practice, subject to the approval of Parliament, which of course is very important in itself. Among its other powers, the regulator will be able to investigate and take enforcement action in relation to forensic science activities carried on in a manner that risks prejudicing the course of legal proceedings.

As I say, I am the daughter of a police officer. My dad did not really get involved in forensics, but he was involved in the technicalities, I suppose, of trying to solve crime. I remember him telling me about a man who was accused of murdering his mother. The man said he was at work at the time; that was his alibi. My father had to test that alibi by doing the relatively simple thing of finding a similar car and driving around, from the man’s workplace to the murder scene, to see whether it was possible to for that to be a workable alibi. He said it was not. The accused was never convicted, but my father always took the view that he got away with it on that occasion.

I think it is clear to us all that technology is advancing so much that the legislative framework needs to move, too. The point was made that biometrics is a whole new issue that perhaps needs to be included in a wider study. There are studies going on, and I welcome the fact that we will look at biometrics—the risks, the opportunities and the management of the data associated with it; the issues of privacy and civil rights that go along with that—in another forum and bring this all together in another Act.

As I say, I have had experience as a magistrate, albeit not as much as I would if I were sitting in the Crown court. Forensics has a fine history in this country, and we see it in our courts every day. It surprises me that fingerprint evidence was first accepted in British courts as long ago as 1901, which seems very early, although I suppose in the scheme of things it is almost unbelievable that we have moved on as far as we have.

The “jigsaw murders” were the first complex case solved by DNA evidence, back in the 1930s. The accused was the improbably named Buck Ruxton of Lancaster. The details of the case are not pleasant—although perhaps they are not as grisly as the Minister’s German hands incident—but it serves to emphasise how long this has been an issue. Forensic techniques were used in examining the cadavers; the life cycle of maggots was adduced to help prove where and when the victims were murdered, and other forensic techniques were able to prove that the victims were linked and that Dr Ruxton had killed them both. I am told that that case is very well known in forensic circles and that it is quoted often.

Let me fast-forward 50 years to the 1980s and a case that is much more famous for us all: the terrible story of two 15-year-old girls. The first girl took a shortcut on her way home from babysitting instead of her normal route home. She did not return. After a long search by her friends and neighbours, she was found raped and strangled on a deserted footpath. Using the techniques available at the time, police found that a sample taken from her body would match only 10% of males, but there were no other leads. As the Minister pointed out, good policing is still at the core of what we do, but there was a dead end for the police at that point.

Not long after, a second 15-year-old girl went missing. Two days later, her body was found in a wooded area, also savagely beaten, raped and strangled. The DNA evidence matched that of the first attack. At that point, a suspect was identified—a 17-year-old boy with learning difficulties who, under questioning, admitted to one of the murders.

Just after that, Alec Jeffreys, a genetics researcher at the University of Leicester who had developed DNA profiling with Peter Gill and Dave Werrett of the Forensic Science Service, did some more analysis. Using their techniques, Jeffreys compared samples from both murder victims against a blood sample from the 17-year-old boy and conclusively proved that both girls were killed by the same man, but not by the young suspect. He became the first person ever to have his innocence established by DNA fingerprinting. We cannot under estimate how important that is to the justice system. It is not just about convicting the guilty; it is about proving the innocence of people who might not otherwise have the capacity to do so themselves.

In an interesting twist, about a year later a lady overheard a man in a pub boasting that he had given a sample. Men in the area had been asked to offer samples and 5,500 men did so. The man said, “I did it for my mate because he didn’t want to get involved.” She reported that to the police and that man was the perpetrator. He was convicted of a double murder and, thankfully, is still in prison to this day.

DNA fingerprinting and forensic science have a long and esteemed history in our justice system. Long may it continue, and long may it continue underpinned by this Bill. Even yesterday, we could read in the paper about a burglar who was recently convicted of burgling an elderly man’s house. The police found a half-eaten biscuit at the scene of the crime. Who leaves a biscuit half eaten anyway? I don’t understand that! [Interruption.] The greed of the perpetrator meant that not only did he steal from the elderly gentleman, but he raided the cupboard and left a biscuit on the side. That enabled the police to capture his DNA and to capture another prolific burglar. It is a terrible, violating crime. The burglar was imprisoned just a couple of days ago because of that good work.

[Kit Malthouse]

My hon. Friend is giving a fascinating tour de force on the history of forensics. She is quite right about the history, and it goes even further back. I know she will recall—although not because she was present—the celebrated case of Dr Crippen, who was alleged to have murdered his wife and fled to the United States. On searching his home, the police found a torso under the floor of the house. Pathologists were unable to identify whether it was male or female. No limbs were ever recovered, the head was gone, and many of the bones of the skeleton had gone. However, on the torso there was a scar that was deemed to be commensurate with medical attention that Dr Crippen’s wife had undergone. Although there was some debate about the scar between the scientists, along with some critical forensic evidence concerning a fragment of pyjama, it led to his return from Canada and the United States, where had had fled, and to his eventual conviction and execution.

[Julie Marson]

I thank my hon. Friend for relaying that story. We talk about “CSI” and so on, but it goes to prove that there is nothing so fascinating as real life. We cannot escape the fact that real life is sometimes stranger than fiction.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) asked what biscuit it was. It was a Lebkuchen, apparently—the devil is in the detail.



When we evaluate forensics, we have to establish the evidence, both good and bad, and there have been examples of mistakes. Back in 2012, scientists, lawyers and politicians raised concerns about the quality of forensic evidence testing, arguing that the criminal justice system had become too reliant on lab tests without realising their limitations, which is certainly something we need to guard against. One man became the victim of those mistakes when, in the early hours of one morning, he had a knock at the door from the police, who told him he was being arrested for murder. When he asked what evidence there was against him, the police said that it was his DNA. He spent eight months in jail because of that mistake, before the DNA sample was found to be only a partial match and of very poor quality. Subsequent experts said that he could not be ruled in or out, and he was acquitted. It is therefore important that DNA should absolutely be up to the standards that we would expect of a robust and fair criminal justice system.

It is not just in the UK that potential issues with forensics can arise. In the US, the misapplication of forensic science in the form of DNA evidence contributed to 45% of wrongful convictions, while false or misleading forensic evidence was a contributing factor in 24% of all wrongful convictions nationally, according to the National Registry of Exonerations. That includes convictions based on unreliable or invalid forensic evidence, misleading expert testimony, mistakes made by practitioners and, in some cases, misconduct by forensic analysts. In some cases, scientific testimony that was generally accepted at the time of a conviction has since been undermined by new advances in scientific disciplines, which can cause real difficulties in getting a case back into court. Changing science is a phenomenon that I know is taking up much of the attention of some colleagues across the House, for different reasons, but it is really important in the context of this Bill.

It is important to humanise this issue because, as I hope the examples and anecdotes that I have described show, although it can seem very technical, it has real human consequences. There is also public interest in the UK becoming a pioneer in forensics and using it more and more in investigations, which is inevitable. The science is advancing at pace, and there is a new discovery around every corner. However, we should still consider the potential of human error to slip into diagnostics involving forensics. Owing to that interest in our leadership in this field, it is great that this House is looking at how to establish the correct legislative framework to manage those advancements sensibly. I am therefore pleased to speak in favour of the Bill.

Birmingham Attacks and Extinction Rebellion Protests

Julie Marson Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Kit Malthouse]

I am more than happy to try to provide the information that the Chairwoman of the Select Committee requested. I am not aware of that particular phenomenon, but I will certainly make inquiries. She is right that the pandemic has caused issues in the criminal justice system. The courts recovery plan being published today—it may well have been published already—shows good progress in the magistrates court and more work to do in the Crown court. She is right that we want to minimise delays in bringing people to justice in this country, and that is what colleagues in the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office are focused on.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the first responders who had to deal with the attack in Birmingham and those elsewhere in the country, and I also pay tribute to my local police force in Hertfordshire, which had to deal with the attempt to shut down our free press over the weekend. My hon. Friend is a champion of the police, and as the daughter of a police officer, so am I. Will he confirm that he is committed to ensuring that they have the powers, as well as the resources, to deal with the disruption caused by groups such as Extinction Rebellion?

[Kit Malthouse]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s unequivocal support for the police, and she is quite right that Hertfordshire police did a good job outside the printworks in freeing up that fundamental liberty. We perhaps sometimes take for granted the fact that a newspaper giving us information from across the world will drop reliably on to our doormat. It would be treasured across the world to have such a vigorous and efficient press as we do.

I give my hon. Friend my commitment that we are in constant conversation with police forces and the National Police Chiefs’ Council about honing our response to protests in the light of new and emerging tactics. Over the last couple of years, we have seen those tactics from XR, and we will have to think hard about how we can ensure that her liberties and those of her constituents are maintained, while their right to protest is facilitated.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill

Julie Marson Excerpts

Report stage & 3rd reading & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 21st July 2020 Commons Chamber

If anyone—perhaps understandably—rolls their eyes to heaven at the thought of caring about the human rights of someone who has committed a serious terrorist offence, I simply refer them to what I said earlier. It is in all our interests to try to get children and young people who commit serious terrorist offences rehabilitated and deradicalised. Even those who do not care about such people’s human rights should remember that deradicalizing young people will protect our constituents.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), and it was a pleasure to serve alongside her on the Bill Committee for this important piece of legislation. I guess it is something of a truism that the first duty of a Government is to protect their citizens, but that is precisely what this Bill seeks to do. As luck would have it, the seventh sitting of the Bill Committee took place on 7/7. I felt that morning, on that inauspicious, infamous date, that it was critical to put the debate we were having on the Bill in some kind of context, so I told the story of my friend Louise. I would like to tell her story again in this debate and in this Chamber.

On that day 15 years ago, Louise was on a train from Liverpool Street to Aldgate. The night before she had been in Trafalgar Square, celebrating the fact that London had just won its bid to host the 2012 Olympics. It was a very busy commuter train, so she was standing when the train was rocked by an explosion in the next carriage. Louise’s carriage filled with smoke and the lights went out. The train screeched to an appalling halt. She says she could feel her heart beating so hard that she could virtually hear it and thought it was going to jump out of her body, but she fought to keep calm amid the screams, panic and chaos around her.

Some people managed to control their panic and began trying to help each other. They called up and down the train for doctors, nurses and anyone who could help. Some people had fallen and some had hit their heads—it was just chaos. Some people were trying to get out of the windows between the carriages or trying to prise the doors apart, but none of that would work. Someone cried out that there was a body on the track. They waited in the dark. Some emergency lights were flickering on and off, but it was mainly dark for over an hour until Louise remembers seeing the very top of a policeman’s helmet outside the train in the tunnel. That was a very reassuring sight. She felt from that moment that everything was going to be all right and that she, at least, was going to get out.

Eventually, those who were able to move out of the way made way for the injured to be carried out or to walk past them. They were bloodied, black and bewildered. Many of them were bandaged with commuters’ possessions, such as belts, scarves and ties. After what seemed like forever, Louise was able to get off the train, but she had to walk past the bombed carriage. She said it looked like it had been ripped apart like a can of Coke. She passed two bodies on the track, covered up roughly by a fluorescent transport worker’s jacket. She saw a man who was badly injured being tended to by paramedics. He was barely clothed; the bomb had ripped the clothes from him. He was propped up against the tunnel wall and his entire body was blackened by the bomb blast.

Louise said it was very surreal to come from that black hellish atmosphere into the light and quite overwhelming. There were helicopters above. There were blue lights and sirens. There was a triage unit on the pavement where people were being treated. It is quite surreal, in a way, that she was just told to give her details to the police and then she just walked off on her own into London to try to find her husband and a cup of tea. She had no idea that she was covered, and her faced was absolutely covered, in soot. The fear, the panic and the shock came later. The overriding feeling she was left with was, why did she get into that particular carriage? Why did she not get into the next one? Why did she survive when so many did not? She was determined not to change her way of life, so she was soon back on the Tube and back at work. I think that that personifies an attitude that says, “This is not going to change our life. We will carry on the way we were before. Terrorism will not stop us.”

As we deliberated the Bill on that day 15 years afterwards, Louise was at Aldgate station placing flowers as she does every year. Many of her fellow passengers have never been back on a Tube. Some are still suffering from anxiety and depression. Some suffered life-changing injuries and some will never see the light of day again. This House and many Members have their own personal experiences of the savagery of terrorism, and I know we all want to do all we can to prevent future attacks. How can we do that? Today, in a very direct way, we can do a lot. We can do just what the Bill seeks to do: strengthen sentencing, limit early release, give the security services the best tools available to manage, and disrupt suspected and convicted perpetrators.

We are hearing, and I am sure we will hear a lot more, about the rights, youth, vulnerability and potential for rehabilitation of terrorist suspects and offenders. Those valid issues, and the issues addressed in many of the new clauses and amendments, are amply dealt with in the Bill. There is no doubt in my mind that the best way that we can honour the victims, like Louise and many others, is to pass the Bill, intact, today.

--- Later in debate ---

According to the evidence heard by the Bill Committee, the current standard of proof does not seem to have been in any way an impediment to the security services. We have had no clear evidence that the current standard of proof is preventing the security services from seeking or obtaining a TPIM when they consider it necessary and appropriate to do so. My position is that until we have that sort of cogent business case, the Government have not made the case for reducing the standard of proof. I do not think we will get it today, but I suspect that it will be looked for in the other place, and it would be interesting to hear from the Minister later whether he will propose any sort of business case when the Bill goes to the other place.

[Julie Marson]

I am interested, as someone from a business background, to hear the hon. and learned Lady refer to business cases. We always have facts and figures that we can look back on historically. Is not the challenge for Government always to anticipate risk that has not happened? We are forever looking behind us, and the consequences are so great when those risks are missed, but this is actually the perfect opportunity for a Government to look forward and anticipate those risks. The risks might involve someone who has been active in Syria, for example, where we do not have that proof, where someone can perhaps take an opportunity for two years to bide their time, knowing that at the end of that period, they might be subject to a higher burden of proof, or just go off the radar.

[Joanna Cherry]

I hear what the hon. Lady says, but that is what the current TPIM regime is designed to do—to anticipate risk and to keep a close eye on people who have not committed an offence yet in a way that could mean that they are prosecuted, but who may be a risk to our safety. She gives, for example, the problem of people returning from Syria. That is clearly a significant problem, but it has existed for a number of years, and the Committee did not hear any evidence that the security services are unable to deal with the problem of people returning from Syria because of the current standard of proof. I use the words “business case” loosely; an “operational case” might be a better phrase. We need an operational case based on examples to justify why this change is needed.

All of us here care about having a TPIM regime in place that does the job. There is no suggestion that the current one is not doing the job and no clear operational case for it to be changed. We would be failing in our duty as Opposition parliamentarians if we did not test this in the way that we are, and I will leave it at that for now.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill (Seventh sitting)

Julie Marson Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 7th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 7th July 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Joanna Cherry]

My primary position is that there should be no reduction at all. That is why I have gone to some lengths to set out the lack of a cogent business case for any reduction. The purpose of the amendment is very much like that of the amendment from the hon. Member for St Helens North: to suggest a halfway house and to probe whether the Government can come up with the business case. I will not push the amendment to a vote.

I end by reiterating what the hon. Member for St Helens North said, which is that it does not seem to be the case that the current standard of proof has been an impediment to the security services. We have had no evidence that it has prevented the security services from seeking a TPIM where they considered it necessary and appropriate to do so. To use the words of Jonathan Hall, until we have that sort of cogent business case, I do not think the Government have made their case for reducing the standard of proof.

I will not press my amendment at this stage, but I expect to see similar amendments when the Bill returns to the Floor of the House. Without such amendments, I would suspect that clause 37 would face a challenge on the Floor of the House.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Robertson. I have listened very carefully to hon. Members. I appreciate the comments, concerns and the constructive way in which they have made their arguments. I support the Government, and I support the principle of TPIMs and of using every tool that we have in our armoury to protect the public, which I know is a concern for hon. Members.

I would like to try to put this into context, which is important, today of all days. Today is 7 July—7/7—and the 15th anniversary of one of the worst attacks that this country and this city have ever faced. It is an important reminder of why we are here doing this and why the Government want to bring in this legislation to protect the public.

With the indulgence of the Chair and the Committee, I would like to talk about my friend Louise—I will not get emotional. Fifteen years ago today, my friend Louise was on a train from Aldgate to Liverpool Street. The night before, she had had a great night out. She had been in Trafalgar Square, celebrating the fact that London had just won the bid to host the Olympics.

It was a very busy train. She was standing when the train was rocked by an explosion in the next carriage to her. Louise’s carriage filled with smoke. The lights went out and the train screeched to a juddering halt. She says her heart was beating so much she thought it was going to come out of her chest, but she fought to keep calm amid the screams and the panic around her.

Some people managed to control their panic and started helping each other. They were calling up and down the train for doctors and nurses—anyone who could come and help. Some people had fallen. Some had hit their heads. It was chaos. Some people tried to get out. They were trying to get out of the windows between the carriages. They tried to prise the doors apart. None of that would work. Someone cried out that there was a body on the track.

They waited in the dark. Some emergency lights were going on, but it was mainly dark, for over an hour, until Louise says she saw the top of a policeman’s helmet outside the tunnel. From that moment—seeing the policeman—she felt safe. All of a sudden, she felt that she was going to get out and that everything would be all right.

They could not open the doors, so those who were able to moved out of the way to make way for the injured to be carried or to walk past them. They were bloodied, black, bewildered. Many of them were bandaged with commuters’ possessions, like belts and scarves and ties. After what seemed like forever, Louise was able to get off the train, but she had to walk past the bombed carriage. She said it looked like it had just been ripped apart like a can of Coke.

She passed two bodies on the track, covered up by a fluorescent transport worker’s jacket. She saw a man who was badly injured being tended to by paramedics. He was barely clothed and was propped up against the tunnel wall—his entire body blackened by bomb blast.

She said it was very surreal to come from that black, hellish atmosphere into the light, where it was light, there were helicopters above, there were blue lights and sirens, and there was a triage unit on the pavement where people were being treated. Quite surreally, she was told to give her details to the police and she walked off into London, trying to find her husband and blackened by soot.  She said she just wanted a cup of tea, very weirdly.

The “Sliding Doors” moments, and the fear, panic and shock, came later. The overriding feeling she was left with was why did she get into that carriage, why did she not get into the next carriage and why did she survive, when so many others did not. She was determined not to change her way of life, so she got straight back on the tube and went straight back to work. I think she personifies bravery, and what we always say, that in the face of terrorism we just get on with it and we will not let our way of life be changed.

Today, 15 years to the day afterwards, Louise will be leaving flowers at Aldgate, as she does every year. Many of her fellow passengers and other victims who were affected by the incident have never been back on a tube. Some are still suffering from anxiety and depression, some suffered life-changing injuries, some lost a loved one and some will never see the light of day again. Over the weekend, I asked Louise what she would say to the Committee. This is what she said:

“Terrorism is the biggest threat we face to our way of life. I have so much faith in our intelligence and security services. I feel they should be given whatever powers and resources they need to fight it. Whilst there will always be those who slip through thej net, especially the lone wolves, we need to feel safe and learn lessons, and let our police and courts have the authority to act and protect us.”

Today I wanted to talk about Louise and pay tribute to her, and all of those affected, not just in that incident but in others. My belief is that the best tribute we could all pay is to pass this Bill.

[Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson.

The No. 1 priority for all of us here is to keep ourselves and our constituents safe. On this side of the House, we recognise the seriousness of this crime and we will do everything that we can to ensure we can effectively and robustly tackle the threat of extremism, and the terrorists who threaten our national security. As emphasised by my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North, we aim to be a constructive Opposition in identifying areas in which we can support the Government. In other areas, where we have questions and concerns about the legislation that comes before the House, we seek to strengthen and improve that legislation, where it is right to do so.

In support of amendment 69, I will briefly highlight some of my concerns about the imposition of TPIM notices, as outlined in the Bill. Terrorist offences are especially heinous and it is incumbent on us to ensure that we maintain a good, high standard in believing that an individual falls within this threat category. Having that standard for TPIMs, which we would support to keep our constituents safe, would protect the measures and not impede their robust or operational nature.

As my hon. Friend outlined, this standard of proof has been raised twice before, by the coalition Government in 2011 and by the Conservative Government in 2015. We have to wonder why the Government seek to implement the lowering of the standard of proof in clause 37. That would inevitably broaden the category of people who are suspected of being terrorists, but who may not pose a threat at all.

Jonathan Hall QC, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, has serious concerns that this clause could work on the assumption that courts have and could interpret “reasonable grounds for suspecting” as

“a belief not that the person is a terrorist, only that they may be a terrorist.”

There is a strong possibility that some TPIM subjects would not be actual terrorists and, by virtue of that, be innocent.

Mr Hall, who has access to highly sensitive national security information, said that the current standard of proof “has not proven impractical” and has expressed doubt that there is an operational justification for making these changes to the regime at this time. The Opposition are firm believers in evidence-based policy making and in not amending legislation for its own sake, but these are no small matters. The threat and the serious nature of terrorist activities have implications we are all too familiar with. However, we do not see the merits of targeting individuals for the sake of it. That would see a disproportionate number of ethnic minorities and potentially innocent people subject to quite intrusive measures.

We also do not think it appropriate to add strain to the security services and to the public purse, particularly when resources are already stretched. It prompts the question of why, despite the evidence and the advice of independent reviewers, we are making this change. I urge the Minister to outline his case.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill (Eighth sitting)

Julie Marson Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 8th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 7th July 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Philp]

On a point of order, Mr McCabe. Before you conclude the final sentence of this Committee proceeding, I shall quickly take this opportunity to thank all Committee members for their service over the last few weeks in considering this incredibly important Bill, which touches on the safety and security of our constituents. Nothing more powerfully illustrated that than the very moving speech given earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford on the experience of her friend Louise, which I think all of us will vividly remember. It reminds us how important the work we are doing here is.

I believe that, with this Bill, we are taking a significant step forward, largely in a spirit of cross-party co-operation from all corners of the House, as it should be for something as important as national security and the safety of our constituents. Of course, we have our differences elsewhere, but on this topic we seem to be mostly on the same page, which is extremely welcome.

I thank everyone who has supported this process. I thank the Whips on both sides for getting us through the Bill a little earlier than expected, which is welcome. I thank Mr McCabe and Mr Robertson for chairing the Committee proceedings with such aplomb, and for correcting the shadow Ministers and me when we occasionally erred from the path we were supposed to be following.

I thank the witnesses who took the time to give us evidence earlier in the proceedings. It was genuinely useful, and the fact that we spent a lot of time in our earlier debates dissecting that evidence shows just how illuminating it was. I do not think any of us will forget Professor Grubin, but I certainly will not be volunteering to hook myself up to any of his machines in a hurry.

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

Oh, go on.

[Chris Philp]

Do not tempt me.

Finally, I thank the phenomenal public servants who have supported the preparation of the Bill and the wider work that goes on, in particular members of my private office—I can see Andrew sitting over there—and all the people working in the policy, legal and financial teams at the Ministry of Justice. They are incredible civil servants who have been working so hard to put this Bill together, including working over the weekend to respond to the various amendments that arrived on Friday. A huge thank you to everyone in the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office for the work they have done on this Bill.

It is appropriate to conclude by thanking those people on the frontline in the constant struggle to keep us and our fellow citizens safe—the police, the Prison Service, the probation service and the security service. Our thanks is due to them most of all. On a daily basis, they put themselves in harm’s way, to keep us safe. I put on record my gratitude to those outstanding public servants.