BBC: Funding

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 18th December 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for setting the scene so well. I want to make some positive points, and then I will outline what some of my constituents are telling me in relation to bias, because I want to have those comments on the record.

First, as the hon. Member for Southport (Patrick Hurley) said, this time next week the King’s speech will just be over. The nation will sit and watch that, because it is one of the good things that the BBC does, and it does it well. I am also a fan—my age gives it away—of the two Ronnies and of Morecambe and Wise. What humour—old-fashioned humour, by the way, but the kind that I was brought up with. I could tell some of their stories; I will not, because we would be here all day telling jokes, but their humour is incredible. I also endorse the excellent World Service, and agree that it needs to be upgraded and enhanced.

I wish to shine a light on the elephant in the room. The BBC has long prided itself as a national broadcaster, funded by the public and mandated to serve the public interest, yet my constituents tell me that the BBC is biased. Time and again, we see a pattern of behaviour that alienates a significant portion of that very public. The BBC is no longer viewed as the impartial institution it once claimed to be. I will give three or four examples just to have them on the record. They have been proven; I am not making them up—I do not do that sort of thing.

The BBC has adopted a tone and an editorial stance that all too often align with a narrow view. Whether or not Members are in favour of Brexit, let us look at it as an example. Many of us in the House and across the country will remember that the BBC approached Brexit not with curiosity or indeed neutrality, as the public rightly deserved, but with scepticism and outright hostility. It was not reporting the news; it was trying to shape the news.

The same bias has extended to issues affecting Northern Ireland. The BBC cannot even name our country correctly, referring to its correspondent as the “Ireland correspondent”. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) will know how absurd and wrong that is, because it is the Northern Ireland correspondent. Those who understand the constitution of Northern Ireland will understand that it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, yet the BBC cannot get it right. If Welsh reporters can be “Welsh correspondent” and Scottish reporters can be “Scottish correspondent”, Northern Ireland deserves no less.

Bias is not merely a matter of perception; it has tangible consequences. Public trust in the BBC has eroded, and I have to say that it is no longer the broadcaster it was once heralded to be. As Government Members will know, my politics lies to the left—a fair bit to the left, I suspect—but that does not take away from where I am. The hon. Member for Clacton (Nigel Farage) faced a hostile audience on “Question Time” and Dame Andrea Jenkyns, a former Conservative MP, was booed before she had even opened her mouth on “Have I Got News for You”. My goodness. That is not organic debate; it is bias in practice.

I will echo something the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East referred to. The BBC selects its audiences, sets the tone and consistently marginalises voices on the right of politics. I am not on the right of politics—I never will be—but I make that point to have it on the record for those who have a different opinion. I respect other people’s opinions, by the way, even though I may not agree with them, because that is the person I am. I hope others are the same.

[Julia Lopez]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this gets to the nub of the challenge? The BBC has a unique social contract with the public. It has the licence fee because people trust it to produce high-quality, impartial, trusted content. That is precisely the reason we have the BBC. If there is a sense from the public that that trust is being lost, that is a fundamental challenge to the BBC’s future. With Russia and China putting ever more money into their own state broadcasters, this represents a much wider challenge than just one for us here in the UK.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. She has highlighted an issue that I wished to highlight too, but she did so better than I could, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. I should have welcomed the Minister to her place, by the way. She responded to her first Adjournment debate last night and did extremely well, and I know that she will be exceptionally good when it comes to answering all the questions that we pose today.

The BBC’s funding model must also be examined. The licence fee is compulsory, paid for by households across the United Kingdom regardless of whether they feel the BBC reflects their values or serves their interests. It is not a secret that I am an Ulster Scot. I am very proud of my history and the fact that my ancestors came from the lowlands of Scotland to Northern Ireland. When I look around this room, I look upon the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East as my Gaelic brother, and there are probably others across the Chamber who are similar; if we go back far enough in our history, we will find out. Ulster Scots heritage programmes risk being squeezed out of the BBC’s cultural programming. I think that is disgraceful. The BBC should focus on delivering programming that matters to all parts of the United Kingdom. Instead, we see money poured into political agendas and overpaid presenters, while those cherished culturally significant programmes receive less attention.

I have one last one example, Mr Mundell: the BBC’s clear bias in its coverage of Israel and Hamas. My goodness—cast your mind back to all that. It is no secret that I am pro-Israel, but I believe in decency and justice for everyone in the middle east. The BBC refuses to describe Hamas as a terrorist organisation. They are murderers, rapists and baby killers. That is who they are—that is the Hamas that we know—yet the BBC could not bring itself to call them what they were: terrorists. That undermines the BBC’s credibility as a news source. What message does that send to the victims of terrorism?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Thursday 22nd February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Member for raising the issues in Cambridge city, and I appreciate that in a city such as that that there will have been significant problems in this area. He may be aware that this was a joint announcement with the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. We are there to put the mandatory register together, which gives us the data that local authorities can use, but it will be for DLUHC to look at the some of the powers that can be implemented to deal with the antisocial behaviour problems that the hon. Gentleman cites.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for those answers. Tourism and short-term lets are very important to my constituency, and I understand the issues clearly. There are benefits—it is not all negatives—and it is important that the positives are marked up as well. Let me ask her a simple question: now that we have a reactivated Northern Ireland Assembly on the go and working hard—[Interruption.]—will she share some of her ideas on this issue with it, and in particular, with the council in my Strangford constituency?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Member for his question, but unfortunately, on the point of substance, somebody coughed and I slightly missed the key point—I apologise. I think he asked about sharing expertise with Northern Ireland. We will be happy to do so, because it is important to learn the lessons of how these issues are being addressed across the country. In Labour-run Wales, there is a real mess over how to deal with the issue of holiday accommodation, and the situation is similar in Scotland. We want to learn those lessons for the English scheme and we will be happy to share the lessons with Northern Ireland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 21st February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight the fantastic connectivity in Northern Ireland. In fact, I think it has some of the very best connectivity in the entire country. I will look into any spots that are still not covered, and I will happily get back to him.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Will she outline how rural businesses can ensure that they have superfast broadband to secure their viability in an increasingly online market?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, but his businesses no longer want superfast. They want gigabit speeds and, thankfully, Northern Ireland has tremendous gigabit speeds. If there are any issues, particularly with access for small businesses, I am happy to look into them.

Telegraph Media Group: Proposed Sale to RedBird IMI

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

As my right hon. Friend will be aware, the decision-making process is not mine. I will not be the person to make a judgment call on this matter. The CMA and Ofcom have until 11 March to issue their initial report. At that stage, undertakings can be accepted or a second stage can be opened. I am sure that all these questions will be in the Secretary of State’s mind as she makes that judgment.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister very much for her answers, which are always very helpful, and we appreciate that. Can she outline if measures can and will be put in place to secure editorial freedom in the long term? We look to a nation with completely different ideals, but which has capacity to shape the media narrative and public information. How can we make sure that we retain trust?

[Julia Lopez]

As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, a public notice has been issued on this matter. Ofcom will look expressly at accurate presentation of the news and free expression of opinion when it makes its reports and judgments known. I hope that will give him some assurance about how the media considerations will be looked at, not just the competition aspects.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Thursday 11th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

I confess I am not sure about the issue my hon. Friend refers to, so I will do some investigation and we will see what the Department can do to facilitate his request.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for her positive answers; it is good to see her back in her place.

We have some incredible heritage in Strangford, which goes back long before Ards and North Down Borough Council was brought together. The council has some ideas for promoting first and second world war heritage at the Somme Museum at Conlig. Have any discussions taken place with Ards and North Down Borough Council to ensure that our heritage is retained for everyone, culturally, historically and visually?

[Julia Lopez]

I have just been informed that my ministerial colleague had a very positive visit to the hon. Gentleman’s constituency—I am sure he always offers a good time in Northern Ireland. I will ask if there have been any discussions with his local authority on that basis.

Data Protection and Digital Information (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

2nd reading
Monday 17th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

I hope that my previous reply reassured the hon. Lady that we intend to maintain adequacy, and we do not consider that the Bill will present a risk in that regard. What we are trying to do, particularly in respect of medical research, is make it easier for scientists to innovate and conduct that research without constantly having to return for consent when it is apparent that consent has already been granted for particular medical data processing activities. We think that will help us to maintain our world-leading position as a scientific research powerhouse.

Alongside new data bridges, the Secretary of State will be able to recognise new transfer mechanisms for businesses to protect international transfers. Businesses will still be able to transfer data across borders with the compliance mechanisms that they already use, avoiding needless checks and costs. We are also delighted to be co-hosting, in partnership with the United States, the next workshop of the global cross-border privacy rules forum in London this week. The CBPR system is one of the few existing operational mechanisms that, by design, aims to facilitate data flows on a global scale.

World-class research requires world-class data, but right now many scientists are reluctant to get the data they need to get on with their research, for the simple reason that they do not know how research is defined. They can also be stopped in their tracks if they try to broaden their research or follow a new and potentially interesting avenue. When that happens, they can be required to go back and seek permission all over again, even though they have already gained that permission earlier to use personal data. We do not think that makes sense. The pandemic showed that we cannot risk delaying discoveries that could save lives. Nothing should be holding us back from curing cancer, tackling disease or producing new drugs and treatments. This Bill will simplify the legal requirements around research so that scientists can work to their strengths with legal clarity on what they can and cannot do.

The Bill will also ensure that people benefit from the results of research by unlocking the potential of transformative technologies. Taking artificial intelligence as an example, we have recently published our White Paper: “AI regulation: a pro-innovation approach”. In the meantime, the Bill will ensure that organisations know when they can use responsible automated decision making and that people know when they can request human intervention where those decisions impact their lives, whether that means getting a fair price for the insurance they receive after an accident or a fair chance of getting the job they have always wanted.

I spoke earlier about the currency of trust and how, by maintaining it through high data protection standards, we are likely to see more data sharing, not less. Fundamental to that trust will be confidence in the robustness of the regulator. We already have a world-leading independent regulator in the Information Commissioner’s Office, but the ICO needs to adapt to reflect the greater role that data now plays in our lives alongside its strategic importance to our economic competitiveness. The ICO was set up in the 1980s for a completely different world, and the pace, volume and power of the data we use today has changed dramatically since then.

It is only right that we give the regulator the tools it needs to keep pace and to keep our personal data safe while ensuring that, as an organisation, it remains accountable, flexible and fit for the modern world. The Bill will modernise the structure and objectives of the ICO. Under this legislation, protecting our personal data will remain the ICO’s primary focus, but it will also be asked to focus on how it can empower businesses and organisations to drive growth and innovation across the UK, and support public trust and confidence in the use of personal data.

The Bill is also important for consumers, helping them to share less data while getting more product. It will support smart data schemes that empower consumers and small businesses to make better use of their own data, building on the extraordinary success of open banking tools offered by innovative businesses, which help consumers and businesses to manage their finances and spending, track their carbon footprint and access credit.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Minister always delivers a very solid message and we all appreciate that. In relation to the high data protection standards that she is outlining, there is also a balance to be achieved when it comes to ensuring that there are no unnecessary barriers for individuals and businesses. Can she assure the House that that will be exactly what happens?

[Julia Lopez]

I am always happy to take an intervention from the hon. Member. I want to assure him that we are building high data protection standards that are built on the fundamental principles of the GDPR, and we are trying to get the right balance between high data protection standards that will protect the consumer and giving businesses the flexibility they need. I will continue this conversation with him as the Bill passes through the House.

Installation of Telecommunications Infrastructure

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 15th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

My hon. Friend makes a good point.

[Jim Shannon]

In Northern Ireland we welcome the broadband roll-out, which is going exceptionally well due to financial support from the Government. To be helpful and constructive, one of the things that we have done back home, which may help the hon. Lady and others to find a way forward, is that in almost every case the construction firms that are putting in the broadband have put the telecommunications underground, thereby doing away with the visual impact. That is a solution that works across my constituency, where broadband roll-out is quite significant.

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Gentleman is right to acknowledge just how much progress has been made in Northern Ireland, where there is some of the best connectivity in the United Kingdom. I am proud that we have been able to make that investment, which is making a massive difference to his constituents. I will come to some of the points raised in interventions, which I hope will help hon. Members.

The electronic communications code provides the framework for operators to install infrastructure. Together with accompanying regulations, it sets out the conditions of how infrastructure must be installed in practice. The regulations require operators to share apparatus if possible and to install only the apparatus that they need. Although some of the issues are not entirely unique to Kingston upon Hull, they are particularly problematic there because of the monopolistic position of KCOM that the right hon. Lady raised. There is also a requirement to install lines underground, as has been raised, unless certain conditions apply.

The regulations set out how operators should engage with local planning authorities. They must notify them at least 28 days before installing a pole, to give them time to consider imposing any additional conditions to the proposed installation. They should engage with communities and other interested parties to engage with communities and other interested parties at that stage.

The final legal provision I would like to highlight is that the electronic communication code sets out who can object to and seek the removal of apparatus, and the circumstances in which they can do that. As well as the legal provisions, I draw the right hon. Lady’s attention to the cabinet siting and pole siting code of practice, which was agreed following the changes to legislation that gave greater permitted development rights and best practice for those installations. It encourages operators to site apparatus responsibly and engage proactively with local authorities and communities. I encourage all operators to adhere to that code of practice.

We have big digital ambitions, but we are making sure that we also support local communities along the way. Last year we made it easier for fixed line operators to share the use of existing poles—again, I think that there are some specific issues with KCOM—and underground ducts via provisions in the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act 2022. That should help to reduce the need for new infrastructure, including poles, in future. We will carefully monitor the impact of the Act’s provisions as they start to have a real-world effect, as it gained Royal Assent only in December 2022 so it is still fairly early days.

My officials talk to Ofcom regularly about the electronic communications code and other telecoms issues. We are looking closely at how to ensure that all operators are aware of and adhering to their responsibilities under the code. We are also looking at whether steps are needed to educate local authorities on their role in the process, including the ability to escalate issues to Ofcom when needed. I note what the right hon. Lady said about her meeting with Ofcom. I will look into some of the issues that she raised about its stated ability to get further involved.

In addition to that engagement with Ofcom, officials in my Department have held meetings with representatives from KCOM and Connexin, to discuss some of the concerns raised with us about deployment in Hull. In addition, they have met with the local council to understand the issue from its perspective. We cannot interfere with individual commercial arrangements, but I have highlighted the obligations of all operators when deploying poles. Ofcom also regularly reviews the market, and last conducted a review into the Hull telecoms market in October 2021. I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for highlighting her concerns. I will ensure that they are relayed to Ofcom. I am pleased to have this chance to update her on the measures already in place, but there may be more that should be done in this area.

Let me turn to the right hon. Lady’s specific proposal to introduce a further layer of bureaucracy into the planning process. We are concerned that that would delay the roll-out of much better infrastructure and could deprive communities and businesses of the connectivity that they need. It will also increase deployment costs, which makes it not cost-effective for operators to deploy in some areas. As I mentioned, that risks creating a digital divide, which we are keen to avoid.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Thursday 26th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my right hon. Friend for all the work that she has done to make sure that Cheshire is connected. I have looked at the issues of Lower Peover. In particular, she highlights challenges with the voucher scheme. I want to assure her that we have upped the amount that can be claimed to £1,500 per premises. I am always happy to meet hon. Members on these issues, but I also hold BDUK surgeries regularly, so please book in for those, but, of course, I will meet her personally to discuss this.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for her answers and for the help that the central Government at Westminster give to Northern Ireland for rural broadband. One issue is banking, online shopping and postal services. Has the Minister had the opportunity to assess how, in relation to rural broadband, these things impact on banking services in rural areas? We are moving forward to new technology and new times. We need help.

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Gentleman highlights just how important good connectivity is to accessing all the services that are going online. One great thing about Northern Ireland is some of the progress that it has made on gigabit connectivity from its contract with Fibrus, and we thank Fibrus for all that it has done. I am happy to look into any of the issues that he raises, but, as I have said, he highlights very well just why it is so important that people do have that connectivity.

BBC Local Radio: Proposed Reduction in Provision

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the voice of Ulster, Jim Shannon.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the Minister for her response to questions today. Impartiality is critical. BBC services in Northern Ireland are somewhat limited, but some programming—outside the oft-biased news pieces—is used to promote cultural events such as a Burns night supper or an Irish evening. Can the Minister confirm that the proposed reduction will include a focus on cutting the cost of some of the overpaid staff and rekindling local cultural programmes that are enjoyable and very informative?

[Julia Lopez]

I know that the hon. Gentleman feels strongly about issues of impartiality in the BBC, and the former Secretary of State extracted several commitments from it, with a 10-point plan to take that forward. As other Members have, he highlights the issue of salary disparity and whether the BBC is putting money in the right places. Those are all questions that need to be answered.

Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Consideration of Lords amendments
Monday 31st October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister very much for her presentation. In relation to personal data—my constituents contact me about it all the time, and probably hers do as well—can we be assured that, through this Bill, personal data will not be available to people who do not have the right to access it?

[Julia Lopez]

I think that is probably for other legislation, but if the hon. Member would like to discuss further with me, perhaps in relation to the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, I would be very happy to do so.

Turning back to Lords amendment 16, I have to emphasise that it is not a blanket national security exemption. It is a very specific power that will be deployed only rarely, on a case-by-case basis and only when all other routes to a mutually consensual solution have been exhausted.

Finally, turning to the last amendment in the group, I hope the House will disagree with Lords amendment 17. The amendment adds a new clause to the Bill requiring the Secretary of State to commission an independent review of the effect of the electronic communications code and of the Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Act 2021.

Channel 4 Privatisation

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question and her concern, but I do not think that anything we seek to do in relation to Channel 4 would deprive low-income families of free-to-air content on it. Channel 4 has made really great strides in the digital space. We think that that will be attractive to any future buyer, and that any future buyer would seek not only to sustain that, but expand it.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am convinced that the Minister believes in the importance of maintaining an impartial media. At a time when the phrase “fake news” has risen to prominence, that is vital. Furthermore, it is critical for the Minister to state that the integrity of independent journalism is a priority, and that the Government are at pains to maintain it. Can she confirm that for Hansard, please?

[Julia Lopez]

I always welcome the hon. Gentleman’s comments and his perspective from Strangford. As I hope I have reassured him through my comments today, this is about the fundamental sustainability of the public service broadcasting sector. If channels wish to remain PSBs, they will still take on the obligations that the Government place on them through their remit, which can, importantly, include the production of impartial news content. I hope that the reforms that we bring forward will assure him that such remits will be taken forward and sustained, so that we have high-quality, important journalism going forward.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Thursday 24th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend. I appreciate her concern about the costs that have been quoted to her constituents, and it is an issue to which the regulator Ofcom is very alive. Ofcom holds responsibility for setting the universal service conditions, and it recently carried out an investigation into BT’s approach to calculating excess cost. BT has since provided assurances on what it will do to mitigate the consumer harm identified in the Ofcom report. Compliance with that report will be monitored, but as I say, I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the issue in greater detail.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

There have been giant steps forward, which we welcome, but people in some areas of my rural constituency still have difficulty getting a connection, and they cannot use their mobile phones either. What discussions has the Minister had with the Northern Ireland Assembly on working together to address those small pockets that are easy to overlook but whose residents deserve the same level of service as those in the cities?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for championing his constituency, as always. Just this week I spoke to one of his DUP colleagues about some of the great work going on with Fibrus, which is making Northern Ireland one of the best connected areas of our country and with the fastest speeds. Of course there is still more work to do. I was going to meet one of the hon. Gentleman’s counterparts in the Northern Ireland Assembly to discuss the issue, but unfortunately he came down with covid. I shall follow up and arrange that meeting again.

Emergency Covid Contracts

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 29th June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

I am enjoying your zest today, Mr Speaker.

The hon. Gentleman raised with me the importance of onshore manufacturing capacity in Westminster Hall last week. I have asked for a briefing on the issue and shall get back to him, because he raised an important issue about the extent to which we have key manufacturing capacity in this country. Project Defend in the Department for International Trade aims to ensure that we have the capacity that we need.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister and the Government for their massive and positive response to covid-19, and for a vaccine roll-out that is second to none. Has the Minister made an assessment of the sustainability of the Government’s use of emergency covid-19 contracts with large firms, and will she confirm whether the contracts have been beneficial to the UK, given the potential and alleged anomalies that occurred at their procurement?

Immunity for Soldiers

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Monday 20th May 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for intervening. What annoys me is that of the three people who killed my cousin Kenneth and Daniel McCormick, one blew himself up with an IRA bomb—he is in hell today, and deserves what he has got—the second died from cancer, and there is one left. None of those three was ever made accountable for the murders of Kenneth and of Daniel McCormick, a Roman Catholic who just happened to be a former member of the Ulster Defence Regiment. The IRA murdered more Roman Catholics than the soldiers ever shot. That is the reality of Northern Ireland, where I have lived all my life and where others in this Chamber have served with such courage and credit; I know that many of them will speak in this debate.

I lost friends in the police as well. I think of wee Stuart Montgomery, who was only 18 and just out of the police academy; within a month, he was murdered outside Pomeroy with his friend. Where is the accountability for those people’s families and loved ones? Of the four UDR men killed at Ballydugan, I knew three personally and from an early age. Where is the accountability in this process for those who murdered those four UDR men? One person was made accountable for a small part of it, but the man who murdered them was never held accountable—although he met his just deserts in Downpatrick shortly afterwards while in the process of trying to blow up more soldiers, so in a way justice has happened.

These repulsive murderers have the freedom to justify what they did—and, indeed, to walk these halls, free from prosecution and free from real justice. I hear them again and feel a searing pain as I read the latest example of the fact that our Prime Minister has no idea of what we have gone through as a nation in an attempt to wrap up legacy issues and tie a bow around them.

[Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman speaks with real emotion. That rawness shows how poignant these events can be, many decades after they occur.

I want to share a very powerful sermon that I listened to in church yesterday. It was given by a military chaplain, who spoke about the 50 to 60 bodies discovered each and every year in the fields of France and Belgium, and about the services that he undertakes to ensure that those people have a proper burial and that their descendants are contacted. It reminded me of the ongoing pact that we have, as a nation, with the people who have served and given their lives for us. Does the hon. Gentleman share my constituents’ instinctive concern and sense of shame that the approach being taken, with soldiers being prosecuted many years after events, diminishes the ongoing pact between a nation and those who risk their lives for it?

[Jim Shannon]

I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Lady; I do not think there is anybody in the House who has a different opinion.

Like others in this House, I make myself available to help the Prime Minister understand what is clearly beyond her at this point. Upholders of law and order do not deserve to be treated equally with murdering scum of any religion; they deserve to be treated differently, because it was different for them. For those in uniform, it was different from any other case. I stood shoulder to shoulder with people in service then, and I stand shoulder to shoulder with them now. I want them to know that, which is why the debate is so important—other contributions will underline that.

The blood of those I loved, and of those who gave their all in service to Queen and country, cries out not for equality, but for truth, honour and real justice from those who should know better. We in the House should know better, and there is no excuse for this memo, or indeed for any deviation from supporting people who were not terrorists but law enforcers. There is a very clear difference in my mind and others’: they are not equal. Take them out of the same bracket, and be honourable.

Persecution of Christians: Role of UK Embassies

Debate between Julia Lopez and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 4th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her intervention, and for her contribution to the meeting we had with the Minister. I think all of us at that meeting were focused on how we could do better.

I come to what I hope the Minister and his Department will be able to do. Will he ensure that displaced communities in Iraq and Syria are able to return home safely? I think that would be an aspiration of us all, but how will that happen? I am ever mindful that the Minister has just taken up his role, but knowing his history and past comments, I am sure he will be able to respond.

In the light of the above cases, we ask Her Majesty’s Government to ensure that UK embassies are resourced to have a human rights focus incorporated in the work of the embassy and, specifically, to report and monitor on freedom of religion or belief. That is one issue we spoke about last week. In his response, the Minister indicated a willingness to make that happen; for it to happen, we look to the Minister for those resources. We need the people in those places to have the necessary training. If done properly, that will allow UK embassies to assess the appropriate time to intervene on issues of persecution, before they escalate too much, and will also allow embassies to assess the appropriate means of raising cases.

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office toolkit on freedom of religion or belief has been sent to all FCO country desk officers and embassies to help in situations of persecution. The toolkit explains what to look out for in potential cases of persecution, providing a list of questions to check against. It provides guidelines on what can be done to ameliorate the situation. The toolkit outlines the methodology of response, but we ask the Government to ensure that embassies are asked what they are doing to use and implement the toolkit. It is all very well to have it in the armoury, but if it is not used or used incorrectly, we will fail to move forward in the way we should.

Embassies are due to take a lead in determining projects for the human rights and democracy fund. In his intervention, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) referred to human rights. The embassies have the opportunity to address that now, and we need to be using the toolkit regularly where it is possible, necessary and applicable. The hon. Gentleman is right, and I support that wholeheartedly. Considerable consultation should be taken up with civil society and faith-based actors on this matter. That is a way forward.

Ensuring that FCO and DFID partners and projects do not discriminate based on religion or belief is crucial. We need the mindset in the FCO, DFID, Defence—in Government policy singularly and collectively—to ensure that discrimination based on religion or belief does not take place. That means ensuring that the UK is not supporting any programme that provides humanitarian or other support to one group of people based on their beliefs, while withdrawing it from another.

When I first came to this House in 2010, there was a statement about the floods in Pakistan. I was aware from my own church, the Baptist church, that some of the people who were Baptists in Pakistan were not receiving the humanitarian aid that they should have received. It was discussed in our church the Sunday just before that, and it was coincidental that there was a statement. It was clear to me then that some of the authorities in Pakistan were withholding humanitarian aid from Christians. I want to see that stopped, and I believe the Minister will be able to respond on that.

In a world where nearly 85% of people globally adhere to a religion, if the FCO and DFID are to meet their commitments to promote peaceful, inclusive societies—that has to be the goal—they will need to engage with religious actors and communities, and support initiatives that build respect and trust between people of different faiths. The APPG on freedom of religious belief is there for those with Christian beliefs, with other beliefs and for those with no beliefs. We need to make sure that that is our focus. It is exactly such initiatives, led by local civil society groups, that embassies need to ensure are financially supported and provided with space to operate. Such programmes are crucial for breaking down tension between different religious groups, promoting understanding between people and reducing the drive and desire to persecute Christians and people of other beliefs.

We hear about what happens to the Baha’is in Iran and Iraq, to the Shi’ites in Pakistan and to those of other religions in Indonesia. We hear about what happens in the middle east—my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) and I were talking before the debate about how Egyptian Coptic Christians are treated—and to those in Algeria, Morocco and many other places across the world, such as south and central America. In all those places, our focus has to be on having a society in which people understand, appreciate and accept that others may have a religion that is different from the one they hold to, and that they must have access to education, healthcare and support for their children, and the opportunity have a business.

[Julia Dockerill (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that clampdowns on religious freedom often go hand in hand with an oppressive approach to free-thinking in general, and in particular to the press? I have worked a lot with the Bangladeshi community, and in Bangladesh there are a lot of problems with sectarianism, which goes hand in hand with a vicious clampdown on bloggers. Has work been done with advocates of a free press, in a similar way to what the hon. Gentleman is doing?

[Jim Shannon]

I wish the hon. Lady well in her new position, and I thank her for that intervention. We need to look at what the media’s role will be in the future. The media have a physical relationship with people and a critical job to do, and how it is done affects what happens in a country. We need a responsible, respected free press.

Engaging with human rights and faith-based organisations, religious actors and communities, and programmes of reconciliation will help to achieve the FCO and DFID’s goal of tackling the causes of insecurity, instability and conflict. There is a role for the media there.

I will conclude with this comment, because I am very conscious that all those who have made an effort to be here deserve to speak, and I look forward to hearing all their contributions. We cannot be responsible for the problems of the world, but evil triumphs when good people do nothing. I believe that, in this debate, we as Members of Parliament have a duty to convey our concerns directly to the Government and to ask for the help of the FCO, DFID and all the other Government bodies across the world. It is clear that we must use our influence to do something. We need to be the voice of the voiceless—those in the Public Gallery will understand that they are also a voice for the voiceless, as we are here. Our embassies and ambassadors have a role. I believe that, with respect to previous Ministers, this has not been fully utilised in the past, but it must be utilised now. How does the Minister think this will be done, and done soon? Every day that passes, there is a new case of persecution due to religious belief. Every case is one too many. Let us do today all that we can.