Universal Credit: North-West

Jonathan Reynolds Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Graham Evans]

I will give way to the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) and then I want to make some progress.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

I intend to make a speech, and I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s courtesy in giving way. I gently say to him—this is important in a debate on universal credit—that Britain is not divided into two groups of people: those who pay taxes and those who receive welfare benefits. It is a lot more complicated than that. The point of universal credit was actually to allow a seamless transition between the two to support people. The point of this debate should be to point out that that transition is not working so far in the initial roll-out of universal credit. That is where the attention needs to lie in a discussion such as this.

[Graham Evans]

As always, the hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. I am not saying that the system is perfect. Under the Labour Government, the welfare system was very complicated. In the previous Parliament, the Government tried to make it simpler and fairer for people in receipt of welfare while also making it fairer for the people who pay for it—hard-working taxpayers. Not for one minute am I saying that the system is perfect, but the people who work in Jobcentre Plus tell me that universal credit makes it a lot easier and simpler for them to help people, particularly the long-term unemployed, to get into work. That is the evidence in my constituency.

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[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to see a fellow north-west MP in the Chair for this important debate, Mr Nuttall. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Marie Rimmer) on securing the debate, and indeed on the impressive work she has done since being elected to Parliament. St Helens is a place with similar issues to my borough, Tameside, so it is excellent that she is raising them.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) is also present. She, too, represents Tameside, which was a universal credit pathfinder area, so we were one of the first parts of the country to experience some of the problems related to it. No matter what political perspective a person has going into the debate on welfare rights and the welfare system, it is important to listen to relevant experience, where it exists, of how universal credit has functioned so far. I should say at the outset that I completely support the goal of simplifying our welfare system—I do not think anyone in this country would not want that.

Like many Members, I use the Child Poverty Action Group handbook to help constituents when they come to me with problems. The handbook is sometimes referred to as the bible of welfare rights; indeed, it is the same size and written in a similar font as the Bible. That indicates the complexity of the system, so of course people should be trying to simplify it. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) said, we cannot get away from the reality that many people lead complex lives and have complex needs. The system must function in a way that gives them the support they need.

A number of the issues that come up at my constituency surgery that I wanted to raise have already been mentioned, but they are so important that I want to reiterate why they are key to making the system work properly. The first one is the first payment that people get. In my experience, there are immediate problems for people when they try to access universal credit because of how the system is designed. It is not a teething problem with the roll-out, but a structural flaw in how universal credit has been created. A lot of people are immediately put into a position where they struggle to afford food and heating. That simply does not seem to tally with the goal of supporting people into and out of the workplace. Instead of giving them a professional and efficient service when they need it, it often robs them of their dignity and puts them into crisis.

Like other Members present, at times of my life I have had to access support from the welfare system, particularly the tax credit system, which is almost always the case for those who have children at quite a young age. It did not lead me into a life of welfare dependency—it arguably led me to a worse life, as I ended up here in the House of Commons. Nevertheless, that is an important point, because so much of the Government’s rhetoric is based on the assumption that there are two sets of people in the country: an underclass of welfare recipients who must be punished and whipped back into the workplace, and everyone else who suffers from having to pay for the system. If that is the Government’s mindset going into the designing of a welfare benefit, the welfare system will simply never be designed in an appropriate fashion to meet the objectives of the people who have been described in this debate.

[Mr Nigel Evans]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has brought up the question of whether that is what the Government intend, because the answer is clearly no. The greatest dignity that we can give to anyone is the dignity of work and employment. That is the main thrust of what the Government want to see. Getting people off benefits and into full-time work will provide them with dignity and give their children a role model to follow.

[Jonathan Reynolds]

I do not doubt the hon. Gentleman’s motivation. Before the debate we exchanged some comments about that sense of there being a group of taxpayers paying for the welfare system and a group of people in receipt of welfare benefits. That is not the way to design a welfare system. We cannot do it in a way that divides the country so simply into those arbitrary classifications. Indeed, if we do that, it is impossible to design an effective system.

I mentioned the issues relating to the first universal credit payment. People have to wait a long time, because it is designed to be paid five to six weeks in arrears. As the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) said in an intervention, the assumption is that they are in the workplace and receiving a monthly salary in arrears, so they will have that support before receiving universal credit. I say this completely genuinely: that is not how the economy of my constituency works. A great many people are still paid weekly or fortnightly. A lot of people have different levels of income week by week because of zero-hours contracts. That does not seem to have been considered in the level of detail required to design how and when people will receive the support that they need.

Delays occur in any bureaucratic system, but there is an even bigger structural flaw in universal credit that I have heard about several times in my constituency surgeries. If someone applies for universal credit on the wrong day—perhaps one or two days before they really “should” apply; in other words, when they have lost their job but before they have received their final pay cheque from their former employer—the system becomes disastrous for them. We must bear in mind that a lot of people, on finding out that they are going to be made redundant, would go to the jobcentre to look at the available support. If they apply for universal credit but receive a further pay cheque from their employer, they will wait not five to six weeks but 10 to 11. That is an enormous problem that must be looked at. If that happens—if someone has to know exactly when to apply for the support to which they are entitled—it will go far beyond the current level of complexity. That would have to be sorted out before any national roll-out.

I have raised those points because we have to find a way to get a supportive system that copes with people going into and out of the workplace—regular or temporary work—in a way that does not completely reset the system and cause all kinds of problems if they then go back into work. That is what I mean when I say that we should not split the country with an arbitrary classification of those in work and those out of work and receiving welfare benefits.

Whenever problems with universal credit are raised, the Government say that advance payments can sort out all the problems, whether with housing arrears, heating or food. That is the first question I ask people who come to see me with problems with universal credit, and a lot of them tell me that they have not been told about the advance payments system. I do not know what the experience of other hon. Members is, but advance payments do not seem to be programmed into the initial assessment. If a person does not know about the advance payment system, they have an even bigger problem, because they cannot claim an advance payment if they are a number of days past their initial assessment. If people accessing unemployment benefits for the first time face a confusing system that does not give them the funding they are entitled to, given that they have paid into the system, and that prevents them from getting back into the workplace, that is not an improvement on the current system. There has been a lot of party political advertising of the employment rate, the Government’s successes, childcare and all that, but we need to look at these genuine, serious problems.

Despite the objective of simplifying the system, the roll-out would have been disastrous in my area if it were not for our welfare rights advisers. To my mind, the staff of Tameside citizens advice bureau are absolute heroes. The reality is that that kind of support is being stripped from all communities. Law centres and citizens advice bureaux are closing. If the system is to work, we have got to give people impartial, fair advice. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) made a fair comment about how people can get in touch with welfare advisers. That is important, and it is sad to see welfare advisers going at a time when people need them.

Universal credit is a big change, and if people do not have support to access it properly, their perception of it will be negative. We have to ensure that that is not the case. From my casework and experience, from what is happening in other parts of the country and from people’s testimonies, my overwhelming impression is that, despite the scale of the bureaucratic challenge of moving to universal credit, we are not tackling the big problems of our social security system. We are not providing sufficient support for people who have lost their job for the very first time—particularly during the global finance crisis—and who never thought they would be unemployed. When they find out what their national insurance contributions will buy, they are often frankly disgusted at the level of support available to them.

We are not tackling the sanctions, the conditionality and the job search criteria. Frankly, I think we are treating a lot of people like children and robbing them of their dignity. We are not giving them what they should reasonably expect when they access the welfare system. Most of all, the system is unable to cope with the flexible working patterns that are so common in our economy. Many people do not have jobs for life; often, they do not even have jobs that last for years. The system has to reflect that, but I do not think those things have been priced in. Despite the bureaucracy and our overall level of spending on the social security system, people in my constituency have been left genuinely destitute and reliant on charity and food banks to survive. That cannot be right. Given the resources we put into the system, there has to be a better way to do it.

I think we need an even more radical approach. We should look to other countries for best practice. Concepts such as basic income do not lead to a taper problem and do not disincentivise people from going back into the workplace; rather, people are supported in different stages of their lives and everybody gets something out of the system for what they pay into it. That is the direction in which we have got to be looking. We need something more radical than universal credit. Universal credit, if it worked properly, would be welcome, but at the moment there are huge teething and design problems. Even once those problems are sorted, it will not tackle the big problems of the welfare system. Let us sort those problems out, but let us not end the conversation about welfare reform here. Let us address the challenges and create a system that truly works for everybody.

[Mr David Nuttall (in the Chair)]

We now move to the winding-up speeches. I gently remind the shadow Minister, the Minister and the Scottish National party spokesman to leave a couple of minutes at the end of the debate before 11 o’clock for the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Marie Rimmer) to wind up.

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[Neil Gray]

It is not treating people like children. I totally disagree with that. People in such circumstances often live chaotic lives. Sometimes, although not always, they do not wish to have the responsibility for managing that extra level of financial responsibility. A great many people in my constituency have told me that they would far rather know that they have a roof over their head that is secure regardless of what happens elsewhere, and that they would rather see their benefit paid directly to their landlord. People should be given the choice over that matter, and at the moment they are not. It is being paid to them, and they are being given the responsibility, which is not always welcome.

[Jonathan Reynolds]

I want to clarify for the record that my comment about treating people like children referred to people who have worked for 20 or 30 years and are forced to fill in a graph to show how many jobs they have applied for that day and that week. I do not think that is an appropriate way of treating people who have been in work for a long time and have lost their job; they should be treated with respect and dignity. On the point about paying housing benefit directly to landlords, I believe that there should be a choice. If people want to manage their money themselves, that is fine. There has been a huge increase in housing arrears in every area in which universal credit has been rolled out, which causes huge problems for everybody else because it has to be covered in some way. If that can be alleviated by paying housing benefit directly to landlords, I see no reason why that option should not be available to people.

[Neil Gray]

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s intervention.

The New Policy Institute’s report “The rise of sanctioning in Great Britain”, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston, states:

“The expansion of conditionality under Universal Credit could see a substantial increase in sanctions: if sanctioning occurred at the same rate as for JSA claimants, then the number could almost double, with an additional 600,000 sanctions.”

That is very concerning. The Institute for Public Policy Research, an independent think-thank, found that low-income families in Scotland will face an £800 a year cut in their income by 2020 following the UK Government’s cuts while the richest 40% will see their incomes rise as a result of tax cuts.

A number of National Audit Office reports have come to damning conclusions about the ongoing universal credit transition, highlighting the early setbacks, missed targets and overspending. The numbers simply do not lie: 17,850 claimants were on universal credit in October 2014, but the Government had planned to have 500,000 claimants on universal credit by April this year and 7 million by December 2019. Not only does that show that the Government are completely missing their own targets, but they are spending huge budgets, wasting vital funds that could be better spent supporting poor families who are struggling to make ends meet. Indeed, the NAO published a report in May 2015 entitled “Welfare reform—lessons learned”. Speaking about the report, Amyas Morse, head of the NAO, said that the DWP,

“has had to learn some hard lessons with significant financial and human costs.”

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[Priti Patel]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about people keeping more of the money that they earn rather than going through the process of having more taken away and then recycled through benefits such as tax credits. It is also worth reflecting on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale. He mentioned Northwich jobcentre, which has done a great deal of work to support people on universal credit. The award that the Secretary of State gave to staff members there shows how they are supporting people and transforming lives, which is fundamental to the welfare reforms that we are bringing in.

Many comments were made about universal credit in terms of the process, the roll-out and delays. I do not agree with some of the assessments and analysis given, and those with reference to the OBR in particular. We are rolling out universal credit as planned. Importantly, we no longer believe in the “big bang” model used in previous systems such as tax credits, which when introduced brought a great deal of chaos to jobcentres and the welfare system. We have adopted a test-and-learn approach to ensure safe and secure delivery and, importantly, to ensure that we can learn from individuals as they go through the process.

We have an enhanced digital service, which makes it clear immediately that a claim has not been progressed and that further information is needed. Jobcentre Plus and work coaches speak well of the system. I have seen it in action, with the immediate way in which data are exchanged and claims are processed. We have faster electronic payments to allow the Department to make payments via BACS on the same day to minimise further delays, because of course people need to be supported.

I do not agree with the comments made about the report from Citizens Advice, because we know that the research for that was based on anecdotal evidence from a small group of current UC claimants—the sample was less than 1%. Even Citizens Advice said that that was not representative of all claimants on universal credit.

We have universal support working alongside universal credit, which offers wraparound support for those who need it. That comes back to the points raised about no two individuals being the same. Situations are different for claimers and no one can count for the life circumstances of individuals, so universal support provides that wraparound support.

[Jonathan Reynolds]

It sounds a little inconsistent to say that the Government did not want a big bang approach and want to learn from the roll-out, but then the Minister immediately dismissed one of the most useful and authoritative reports on the roll-out in our area. That report includes a number of cases that, based on my constituency surgeries, are spot on in the problems identified.

[Priti Patel]

We are clear that we have an agile test-and-learn system. That is not a big bang approach. With all due respect to Labour Members, previous Governments went for the big bang approach on welfare systems and there were consequences: I highlight again the tax credits example.

I will wrap up, because I am conscious of time. In terms of incentives and support, from April we are increasing the amount of eligible childcare cost in universal credit to 85%. That will make a remarkable difference to families. Welfare is about much more than just giving people money. It is about removing barriers for individuals, understanding circumstances and giving people the support they need to get on in life.