Natural Capital (England and Wales)

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on securing the debate and on his opening remarks. I also pay tribute to the work of the natural capital committee.

It is a pleasure to take part in this debate on the state of natural capital in England and Wales. I am always delighted to discuss the natural capital and resources of my country. On the face of it, the NCC report makes sensible recommendations, with which I am sure the new Welsh natural resources body, Natural Resources Wales, and the people of Wales would agree. My party would certainly agree with

“Genuinely embedding the value of natural capital into the fabric of economic decision-making”.

I question the sincerity of the UK Government’s welcome for the recommendations, given their fascination with marketising, monetising and privatising everything in their path. It is bizarre that they have seemingly been converted to the value of natural capital to the economy and human well-being. Only last year, they tried to sell the English forests and they are currently aiming to stimulate the market for water resources and embarking on a potentially unsafe and destructive dash for shale gas.

Any discussion of the natural resources and natural capital in Wales must concentrate on the fact that the powers over this important area are still hoarded at Westminster in the centralist grip of the British state. Wales should be able sustainably to exploit its natural and mineral resources for the greatest possible environmental, social and economic gain. However, the National Assembly for Wales has limited powers over natural resources and energy generation. The people of my country are thus unable fully to benefit financially from the exploitation, extraction or transfer of natural resources. Such financial benefits could be used to create a stronger Wales that is more economically self-sufficient. Responsibility for the planning, licensing and oversight of all resource extraction, exploitation and transfer in Wales should therefore be devolved. Some aspects of environment and natural resource policy are devolved to Wales, but the crucial ones are not. Today, the Westminster Government are threatening a grab for Welsh natural resources in the form of shale gas exploitation, water extraction and energy production, all without Wales being in control or her people fairly compensated.

Water is a highly emotive issue in Wales, and the flooding of the Tryweryn valley to provide a reservoir for Liverpool Corporation casts a long shadow over the modern history and politics of Wales. Many still see that as the catalyst for Welsh political self-realisation, and it spurred on a generation to secure an element of home rule, convincing them that Westminster would never truly work for Wales. That culminated in the struggle for a national assembly at the end of the last century, and the process carries on today. It is safe to assume that I would not be here today representing Plaid Cymru were it not for the episodes in Tryweryn. Only last night on S4C, there was a terrific programme about the fight against the potential flooding of the Gwendraeth valley in my constituency, and the battle of Llangyndeyrn, in which the local community heroically fought against Swansea Corporation’s attempt to flood prime agricultural land to provide water for Swansea.

Wales is currently not in full control of its resources. The Crown Estate and energy planning above 50 MW remain the preserve of the British state, meaning that we are unable truly to have ownership in any sense or fully to benefit from our natural capital. That is why Plaid Cymru has been making the case for those areas to be devolved as part of the cross-party UK Government Commission on Devolution in Wales. Polling carried out by the commission—the most detailed ever undertaken in Wales since devolution—revealed that an overwhelming 70% of the people of Wales want full devolution on energy policy. Any political party that ignores that does so at its peril.

Surely the people of Wales, at the bottom of the economic table for the nations and regions of the UK, should be fairly compensated for the natural capital that our land holds. All around us we see Welsh natural resources plundered without economic gain for its people. Current plans for fracking, and more recent attempts at “stimulating” the market in water, present a real threat to the natural capital of Wales. The water of Wales may not match Scotland’s oil in terms of wealth, but it is a resource with value and the people of Wales should receive a fair return. Although the upcoming Water Bill intends to leave Dwr Cymru—or Welsh Water—intact, Severn Trent Water cuts a swathe into Welsh territory, and could mean that the water of Wales is extracted for vast profit in future. With Gulf state sovereign wealth funds looking to buy Severn Trent Water and clearly seeing it as an investment opportunity for the future, Wales and its people should not be left at a disadvantage.

Full territorial integrity should be recognised, and it should be for the people of Wales to decide what happens to the water of Wales through our democratic institution, the National Assembly for Wales. It is therefore crucial that full control of water is devolved to Wales. It is a continuing disgrace that the Labour Government cynically blocked full devolution of water policy in the Government of Wales Act 2006, leaving the power of veto with London Ministers. Full control over water would finally end the grossly unfair system enshrined in the Water Act 1973, and perpetuated by the 2006 Act, in which water was lent to Severn Trent Water at a scandalously low rate of 5p a year for 999 years and the Secretary of State for Wales was empowered to overrule the National Assembly for Wales on matters of Welsh water supplies to England.

Plaid Cymru has put forward the case for the devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales so that our natural resources are secured for the benefit of the people of Wales. Last year the Crown Estate in Wales more than doubled its surplus from £2.5 million to £6.5 million. The Crown Estate is also set for a multi-million pound windfall from the development of wind farms on Crown land and on the sea bed around Wales. That should be going to the Welsh Government to help fund Welsh public services and invest in Welsh infrastructure.

The Westminster parties are concerned with helping those who seek to extract maximum profit from natural capital and resource, in spite of recommendations contained in reports such as that featured in today’s motion. Only Plaid Cymru puts Wales first and fights to ensure that the people of Wales control and benefit from their own natural resources.

Common Agricultural Policy

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Tuesday 18th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am glad that my contribution has caused so much interest in the Chamber.

The shadow Minister was rather fierce in his criticism of the Minister. Only yesterday, a Minister from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs came to the House to make a statement on the common fisheries policy. That was always seen to be intractable, yet the outcome seemed to have the support of the whole Chamber. Indeed, we hope that the CAP negotiations will meet with the same success.

It has been said that little progress has been made in reforming the CAP—the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham), who is no longer in his place, said so at the beginning of the debate—but I must remind everybody that 25 years ago CAP expenditure amounted to 75% of EU funding, whereas it now amounts to just over 40%. In that time, the amount spent by the average UK family on food has decreased from 25% of disposable income to about 15%, although sadly that trend is moving in the opposite direction because of the increases in commodity prices. Back in the 1980s, the CAP depended on market support and intervention through export subsidies and import tariffs, which were really trade-distorting implements and very unfair on developing countries. Things moved on, however, and in 1993 the MacSharry proposals introduced direct payments that were not so trade distorting, and in 2003, the Fischler proposals decoupled support, which was another step forward.

Why do we still need a CAP? It was first introduced to ensure that people working in agriculture and the countryside had incomes comparable to those in more urban and industrial occupations. Sadly, it has been unsuccessful in doing that, and incomes in the countryside are still less than in towns. Many farming businesses in this country would be making no profit at all, if it were not for direct payments.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

How concerned is the hon. Gentleman, therefore, about the drive towards a referendum on the British state’s membership of the EU based on renegotiated terms, including the repatriation of the CAP and convergence funding? How concerned is he about the impact that that would have on the industry in Wales?

[Roger Williams]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern. The Farmers Union of Wales has made it clear that is sees EU membership as fundamental to a successful Welsh agricultural sector.

We need resilience in our farming communities and businesses. As has been pointed out, farming businesses across the country have experienced poor conditions in the past two years. The Chairman of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee pointed out that for two years now the UK has been a net importer of cereals, whereas we used to be a net exporter. We need resilience in our farming businesses, therefore, if they are to survive from one difficult period to another period in which they can rebuild their resources and capital. We will experience great difficulties with food security over the coming years. With the world population now reaching 7 billion and probably reaching 9 billion by 2050, the demand for food will increase, and it is thought that northern Europe, particularly its maritime areas, might be well placed after climate change to maintain its agricultural production. We should be looking to the CAP to ensure that.

I ask the Minister to address a number of issues that have already been raised. The first is co-financing of voluntary modulation. The UK farming community is concerned about voluntary modulation, because it would put it at a competitive disadvantage against other countries that compete with us on food production. Co-financing, if possible, could mitigate some of the problems perceived by British agriculture. Secondly, the greening proposals should be as simple and easy to follow as possible. The last thing we want are complex proposals leading to penalties being applied to individual farmers or DEFRA. I was on the EFRA Committee when the single farm payment was first introduced. The Rural Payments Agency made a terrible mess of delivering those payments and, as a result, a lot of DEFRA money had to be returned to the EU, rather than being spent on supporting our agricultural sector, so simplicity is important. Some large-scale arable and horticultural businesses would be willing to forgo the greening element—30% of the single farm payment—in order to maintain their focus on commercial activity, so what proposals does the Minister have for using those elements not taken up by businesses?

Agricultural Wages Board

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mary Creagh]

If the hon. Gentleman is so keen to retain the AWB—I know that many in his constituency, including the Farmers’ Union of Wales, are against abolition—I hope that that will be reflected in his voting on our side this evening.

I want to deal with the regulatory burdens that could fall on farmers. We have considered the history behind the AWB’s abolition. The board has survived until now thanks to my colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government, who listened to their constituents and were totally against getting rid of it. Constitutionally, abolition required consent, and they refused to give it.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The motion notes that it is

“the Welsh Government’s wish to retain the AWB”.

Scotland and Northern Ireland can keep their AWBs, of course. Is the hon. Lady making the case, therefore, for a reserved powers model for the Welsh Government?

[Mary Creagh]

I think the hon. Gentleman has made that case very well himself. We expect an announcement from our colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government, but they have made a commitment to retain the functions of the AWB in Wales. We will see what that delivers over time.

All was quiet until the appointment of the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), who decided to abolish the AWB by tacking it on to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill—a regulatory reform that could therefore bypass the Welsh Government. His Department conducted a pitifully short, four-week consultation. Let us remember that there was a full 12-week consultation on banning ash trees from Europe four months after Ministers were first told that ash dieback disease was here. We can see where this Secretary of State’s priorities lie—apart from the squirrels. He is swift to take money from workers’ pockets and hand it back to their bosses, but slow to defend the natural environment.

Dairy Industry

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 13th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. I congratulate the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) on securing the debate.

Over the summer, much of my political work centred on the dairy industry. I was invited by the National Farmers Union to meet local farmers, a meeting hosted by Mr and Mrs Thomas of Dolau Gleision farm near Llandeilo. It was an extremely interesting experience. I was chaperoned into a nearby barn, where the local farming community sat on rows of hay. It was a bit like “Question Time”. I also had a detailed meeting with the executive of the Farmers Union of Wales in Carmarthenshire, at which we discussed policy options, and my Assembly colleague Rhodri Glyn Thomas and I arranged an open meeting on the eve of the Royal Welsh show in Llandeilo. To his credit, the Welsh Deputy Minister for Agriculture, Food, Fisheries and European Programmes, Mr Alun Davies, attended the meeting at extremely short notice.

Feelings in all those meetings were running extremely high. Most farmers had just received news that they were facing price cuts of at least 2p. A large number of farmers were threatening to spill their milk down the drains, and many did not attend the meetings because they were picketing processing units across the border. Thankfully, and to his credit, the UK Minister at the time acted, and during the Royal Welsh show announced progress on a voluntary code of best practice between processors and producers. Together with the milk price cuts being postponed, that was enough to restore calm in the countryside and avoid a summer of discontent, which meant that I could enjoy the rest of my August holidays.

The process culminated with the announcement of a finalised voluntary arrangement earlier this month, which is undoubtedly a step forward. However, the key question is whether it will result in a fair price for farmers for their product. At the end of the day, that is key, as well as creating a fair and transparent supply chain. Unless farmers are confident about the future prospects of the industry they will not commit to dairy production.

I welcome the moves to equalise the relationship between producer and processor, specifically in the contractual arrangements. Previously, producers were tied to a processor for periods of longer than a year, whereas the processors could cut the price on a whim. The voluntary agreement, as I understand it, will ensure that processors have to give producers 30 days’ notice before dropping prices, but producers will have to give three months’ notice. Although the agreement is a step forward, the balance will still be weighted towards the processors.

There has been broad support for the voluntary code. NFU Cymru has always championed a voluntary agreement. The Farmers Union of Wales, which traditionally shares my more militant tendencies, has also welcomed the announcement. I am not being pessimistic, but I believe that it is incumbent on both the UK and Welsh Governments to prepare a policy response, if the voluntary code breaks down.

During the public meeting in Llandeilo, the Welsh Deputy Minister said that he had the power to introduce a Welsh dairy package. I was completely wrong-footed by that suggestion, because I had always thought that such things had to be introduced at member state level. However, during a visit to Brussels last week, the Welsh Affairs Committee met with Hermanus Versteijlen, the European Commission’s director of agriculture and rural development. I naturally asked him about that, and he said that a dairy package could be implemented wherever the political competence lay, which seems to indicate that it would be possible for the Welsh Government to introduce one. I urge the Welsh Deputy Minister—I hope that he is listening in Cardiff—and stakeholders in my country to at least begin to prepare the framework for legislating on a Welsh dairy package. Having something concrete in draft form might even concentrate the minds of processors, in relation to ensuring that the voluntary code that was set out earlier this month works.

I have a few questions for the Minister on the voluntary code. How does he expect the code to affect the expected legislation on the grocery ombudsman? What measures will he use to judge the voluntary code’s effectiveness? How do British farming Ministers view the implementation of the European Union recommendations for producer organisations? How will they develop on these isles? What is the potential threat of quotas ending in 2015? In informal meetings in Brussels we were led to believe that the Irish are gearing up vastly to increase their production to flood the UK market. Will the Minister indicate his thinking on the potential threat of that future development?

[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

I have one last notice. The Clerk will ring a little bell when a speaker has a minute left. That is an innovation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

Water quality is an absolute fundamental, and releasing pollutants into waterways can affect our ability to comply with the directives that we have signed up to, such as the water framework directive, so it is an absolute priority as well. We have allocated funding to improve water quality. I will certainly look at any regulations, and if the new charity comes forward with suggestions that require legislation on any level, we will certainly consider that.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

4. What meetings she has had with Ministers from the devolved Administrations to discuss the European Council meeting on Agriculture and Fisheries on 26 and 27 April 2012.

[The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)]

May I take this opportunity to explain to the House that I chose to be with hon. Members in the House today rather than to go the negotiations on the common agricultural policy? It is because the next set of oral questions to my Department may clash with the Rio+20 summit.

Normally I would meet Ministers from devolved Administrations to discuss reform of the CAP and the common fisheries policy, which are the main agenda items at today’s Council. I look forward to continuing those discussions, and my next meeting with them will be on 2 May.

It is normal practice for UK lead Ministers to meet Ministers from devolved Administrations before Council meetings, and I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State will have done so.

[Jonathan Edwards]

In a recent major interview with a European publication, the Welsh First Minister said of participation in European meetings:

“It is not enough to be in the room, we have to be at the table as well.”

I certainly could not agree more with him. Under what circumstances would English Agriculture Ministers in the British Government give up the table to Welsh Ministers in European Council meetings, or would Wales get to the table only as an independent state in the European Union?

[Mrs Spelman]

This matter was discussed in a memorandum of understanding when the coalition Government came into office. I regularly invite devolved Ministers to attend Council meetings, and we have on one occasion invited a devolved Minister to speak on behalf of the United Kingdom, but I should like to make two points: the UK is the member state; and as with all devolved nations’ Administrations, when we throw the full weight of the United Kingdom behind the needs of a nation such as Wales, we are more likely to secure what the hon. Gentleman’s nation would like.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

I am well aware that the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency is also affected by the threat to the viability of the cane refining side of the business. I can assure him absolutely that, from the first sight of these Commission proposals under common agricultural policy reform, and in the context of high world sugar prices, we have worked hard to ensure in our national interest that both sources of sugar have their place as part of our sugar economy. Ultimately, trade liberalisation is what should give us a level playing field and a fair opportunity for both types of sugar processing.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

15. What discussions she has had with the Welsh Government on the spread of the Schmallenberg virus.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)]

DEFRA officials have been in regular contact with officials from all the devolved Administrations—including those from the Welsh Government—to discuss the Schmallenberg virus. There have been meetings and regular reports on the situation, both national and international.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Diolch, Mr Speaker. Does not the sudden outbreak of the Schmallenberg virus prove the need to preserve Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency services in livestock-intensive areas such as Carmarthenshire?

[Mr Paice]

I hope—as, obviously, does the hon. Gentleman—that the virus does not spread as far as Wales. We believe that it has come, midge-borne, across the channel, and, as I said earlier, we hope that it will not continue to spread. However, we do not consider it necessary to revisit the issue of the two laboratories in Wales. As has been said repeatedly before Committees at which the hon. Gentleman has been present, we believe that the overall laboratory services will be sufficient, under the reorganisation, to continue the surveillance.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Thomas]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Indeed, I hope that he will catch your eye later, Madam Deputy Speaker, to enable him to make that point in more detail.

I shall return, if I may, to the concerns expressed by Mr Leniec about the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. He is also worried about the loss of sick pay that he could suffer. He has never needed it to date, but knows of others who have done so. He also shares Mr Neville’s concern about the loss of protection of the right to overtime if he should move to a different employer.

The Agricultural Wages Board continues to provide an unheralded but important service in helping to protect vulnerable people and their families, who are vital to the rural economy, from seeing their terms and conditions progressively worsen. It helps to regulate basic pay and protection for fruit pickers, farm labourers and other farm workers. It deals with wages, holiday pay, sick pay and overtime, as well as bereavement leave, holiday entitlement and rates for night work. It provides a crucial floor beneath which wages in the agricultural economy cannot fall.

Nearly 150,000 agricultural workers in England and Wales depend on the Agricultural Wages Board. Those workers play a part in maintaining the vibrancy of our rural communities. They are the unsung essential staff who support farmers in helping to keep agricultural businesses thriving. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) has just suggested, they form a vital part of our food production industry, helping to ensure that we and our constituents can all enjoy healthy—and, occasionally, unhealthy—meals.

It is striking that many farmers continue to support the Agricultural Wages Board. Its presence means that they do not have to become employment specialists, and that they can instead concentrate on running their businesses. The deputy director of the Farmers Union of Wales has noted that

“the AWB is considered an important means of avoiding potential conflict and lengthy negotiations with individual staff”.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

To my knowledge, agriculture is the only industrial sector in which there have been no large industrial disputes over the past couple of decades. Is not that testimony to the success of the AWB?

[Mr Thomas]

The hon. Gentleman is undoubtedly right on this occasion. It is also worth noting that many small farmers also rely on providing their skills to other farmers, at Agricultural Wages Board rates, to ensure the viability of their businesses.

The Government made the important claim in Committee that the board’s abolition would not result in workers becoming worse off, and that minimum wage legislation and the European working time directive would protect their terms and conditions. I put it to the Minister, however, that once the Agricultural Wages board has gone, the 42,000 casual workers in the sector will see a drop in their wages as soon as they finish their next job. That point was also made by my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright). The other 110,000 workers could see their wages and conditions corroded over time.

Is it not spurious for Ministers to claim that farm workers will be protected by the minimum wage? As the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) said, only 20% of farm workers are on the Agricultural Wages Board’s grade 1, which is virtually equivalent to the current minimum wage. The rest earn considerably more than the minimum wage and will not enjoy the same protection as the board offers them now. Is it not true, too, that once the Agricultural Wages Board is abolished the right to overtime pay at current rates will disappear when a worker moves job? Is it not true, too, that once the board is abolished the right to sick pay will be at a substantially lower rate than at present for agricultural workers when they move jobs? Then there are children who do summer jobs or part-time work on the land; they usually live in rural villages themselves and often have aspirations to work on the land for a career once they are old enough to do so. They currently receive £3.05 an hour. They are not covered by the national minimum wage, so—if, indeed, the board is abolished—they will have no wage protection when they do holiday or weekend work.

Poverty in the countryside rarely receives the coverage or attention it should. Indeed, the extra costs of living and working in the countryside do not get the attention they should, so the work of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, in highlighting the extra 10% to 20% living costs that those in rural areas typically need to spend on everyday requirements in comparison with those living in urban areas, is surely significant. It should further challenge us to do more to combat low pay and poverty in the countryside and it surely poses the question of how the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board can possibly help in that important task. The board is also an important counterweight to the pressures from the food industry, particularly those from the supermarket chains, for ever lower costs of production to increase profitability.

I read through the comments that the Minister made in Committee. He cited how the Agricultural Wages Board's existence discourages the payment of annual salaries and the confusion with non-agricultural work that can occur. Those may or may not be genuine concerns. If they are—I take the Minister at his word—one would have thought that a reform agenda could explore those issues. Instead, the Government want to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, not thinking through the consequences for rural wages of the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. With rural workers already facing a huge squeeze on their finances from higher energy prices, the increase in VAT and an economy that is being badly mismanaged by the Conservatives, the Government now want to risk rural workers’ wages.

We know from a leaked impact assessment on the abolition of the board that the impact of the loss of entitlement to agricultural sick pay compared with the lower-in-value statutory sick pay that will remain will be a

“transfer, a benefit to farmers and a cost to workers.”

The impact assessment estimates that the reduction in earnings for farm workers as a result of that measure alone will be some £9 million—£9 million out of the rural high street in lost earnings by workers. All those villages shops—vulnerable now because of the Government’s mishandling of the economy—are hardly going to be helped by yet another squeeze on the finances of those they want as their consumers.

If there is any doubt that the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board will damage the pay of rural workers, let us look at what happened in other parts of our economy when their wages councils were abolished. In evidence published as far back as September 1995, three in 10 jobs were paying less than they would have done if wages councils in the relevant sectors had not been abolished. The fall in pay in shops was particularly severe. A follow-up study one year later showed that half of all vacancies were paying below what they would have done if the wage councils had still existed. The situation had got worse. Such evidence explains why the Labour Government not only brought in the minimum wage, but reformed collective bargaining arrangements. It is also why we will tonight oppose the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board and why I will seek your leave, Madam Deputy Speaker, to divide the House.

Lastly, I draw attention to amendment 39, which was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) and other hon. Friends and which deals with the Commission for Rural Communities. The abolition of the CRC will leave rural communities without an independent voice, as the Government scrapped the Rural Advocate post last year. It raises the question of whether the Government are really committed to rural proofing Government policies. Indeed, the abolition of the CRC, along with—crucially—the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board, following on from the Government’s attempts to sell off the nation’s forests, is surely proof that the countryside is being let down by the coalition Government parties.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jon Trickett]

It is good to see you back in the Chair, Mr Speaker. I add my own thanks to the Clerks and Committee Chairs for the orderly way in which the business was conducted to those of the Minister for the Cabinet Office. I thought that the Back-Bench contributions sparkled. Let me briefly mention my hon. Friends the Members for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth), for North Durham (Mr Jones) who worked hard as the shadow Minister, for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones), for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) and for Telford (David Wright). Proceedings also sparkled in cross-party unity. It was interesting sometimes to find allies in each of the other parties represented in Committee. I mention the hon. Members for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) and for Arfon (Hywel Williams). It was also good to work closely with the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), who is no longer in his place.

It is true that the Bill was somewhat improved following our debates, at least in two matters where the Government accepted defeat—and with some grace, I have to say—on the question of the port of Dover. It was good to see the Minister move the amendment on co-operatives as eligible bodies and particular forms of charitable organisations. All that is very welcome. We worked in good order with good humour. I said many times—and I repeat it now as it is a good thing to say—that the two Ministers were both extremely reasonable, although they were occasionally reasonable men doing unreasonable things.

No Labour Member would object in principle to the idea that we should keep the quango state, as it is called in the United Kingdom, under constant review. In March 2010, the Labour Government set out almost £500 million-worth of savings that could be achieved by reducing the number of arm’s length bodies. We expected to reduce their number by 123 by 2012-13. Labour had inherited just over 1,100 quangos when we came to power in 1997; in fact, we axed about 400 of them during our term in office.

I want to put it on the record before making some more general points that we will support properly costed savings in administration, bureaucracy and other forms of overheads. Clearly, if bodies have come to the end of their useful lives, they should be put humanely wherever quangos go when they are no longer needed. We gave the Bill a fair hearing on Second Reading, and did not divide the House. In Committee, too, we tried to be more than reasonable and fair. To an extent, there is a shared agenda and there is certainly a consensus that the quango state should at least be kept under review. However, following Committee and today’s debates on Report, I am sorry to say that I find it impossible to recommend that the Bill be given a Third Reading.

All the bodies that we are discussing were established through primary legislation, a process with which we are very familiar, involving reasoned and detailed debate here, in the other place and in Committee. Surely the most appropriate way in which to consider the abolition of most of these bodies is through the same reasoned and detailed debate. It may be possible to deal with some it of through secondary legislation—I do not want to make a universal law—but it seems to me that Ministers are being given far too many powers that will be exercised by means of orders placed before the House. Already, even before the House has finally decided to enact the Bill, the Government have, by administrative means, begun to disassemble the various quangos with which we are now so familiar. They have gutted the regional development agencies, which were there to create jobs, enterprise and growth, and which are needed above all in times of difficulty such as those that we are now experiencing. They have cut staff, changed their functions and reduced their funding without a by-your-leave from the House, although the House spent many weeks, indeed months, setting up the RDAs in the first place. The same applies to the Equality and Human Rights Commission. What I consider a disgraceful 66% reduction in staff has made it difficult for the commission to perform duties that were conferred on it by the House. It is not right for Ministers to take administrative measures to curtail the lives of bodies that were established by Parliament to carry out particular public functions before the Bill has been enacted.

Ministers will claim, as they have done repeatedly, that there will be detailed debate on each body at a later stage through the secondary legislation process. However, it is simply not right for such important issues to be debated only by means of statutory instruments. That is not, in general, the way in which to reverse primary legislation.

In the other place, the Bill was debated for what must have seemed an eternity, particularly to civil servants and Ministers. Literally hundreds of amendments were tabled, and, as we have heard, there was criticism of the infamous schedule 7. The Bill was condemned as a mass enabling act which circumvented the proper and due process of Parliament, and it emerged substantially changed. I am sorry to inform any of their lordships who read the record of tonight’s debate that they must again pay special attention to the Bill if it is passed tonight, because so much of it has been dealt with inappropriately. I urge them to look carefully at some of the amendments that have been driven through.

We should remember that when Conservative Members first envisaged the Bill, they said that it was designed to save money. It was extraordinary that the Prime Minister should say that it would save £30 billion, given that two days earlier the Secretary of State, in another newspaper article, had said that it would save £20 billion. Now we hear that, in fact, we will save £2.6 billion. However, we gather from parliamentary questions that I have tabled that the savings will amount to about £1.5 billion. The financial underpinnings of the Bill are a shambles, and that typifies the way in which it has been handled more generally. Therefore, my patience and good-will in respect of the Government’s course of action on quangos have tonight been stretched to breaking point.

The House was given less than five hours to consider the Bill on Report, even though there was a glut of Government amendments and a list of incredibly important organisations that ought to have been discussed, but which were not. There was an odd moment in the Lobby, when the Government Whips seemed to be dragging their feet, presumably in order to avoid a debate on the Welsh television channel. Therefore, as I predicted earlier, this evening we have not had an opportunity to deal with all the matters before the House. We did not get an opportunity to look at the regional development agencies, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, the Equality and Human Rights Commission or the Human Tissue Authority. Above all, we did not get even a moment to discuss S4C, a vital service to the people of Wales. These are just some of the bodies covered by the Bill which, disgracefully, the House did not have a proper opportunity to debate.

[Jonathan Edwards]

My colleagues were delighted to see the Labour amendment on S4C. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that if Labour are returned to power—or when broadcasting is devolved and Labour take control of the Welsh Government—it will honour its commitments?

[Jon Trickett]

What I will say about S4C is that we tabled our amendment and we made our position clear both in that and in the speeches made in Committee, which the hon. Gentleman can read, and thereby see the precise commitments we made.

Throughout the consideration of the Bill, there has been no appropriate means for consultation or for the making of representations by the many bodies whose futures are being damaged or by their clients who will be affected by these measures. Evidence sessions were not permitted, and bodies who had a case were ignored, as were people who benefit from the services they offer—the disabled who depend on the Equality and Human Rights Commission, for instance, or those who depend on the Royal British Legion.

The Ministers have been fair-minded, but the truth is that this whole process has been ramshackle. Giving Ministers the power to strike down organisations without there being proper parliamentary scrutiny is the worst kind of government; that simply does not meet the high standards this House should expect. The Bill should be condemned based on the decision on the chief coroner alone. For these reasons, the Opposition firmly oppose the Bill and will seek to press the House to a Division.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I much enjoyed a visit to HMS Mersey and boarding a trawler from another country, and I was impressed by the squadron’s professionalism and approach to the whole job. It is at an advanced stage in negotiations with the Marine Management Organisation on the continuance of this contract. I very much hope that that can be achieved, because I share my hon. Friend’s view that it is a very professionally run operation that is doing great service not only to our fishing industry and the maintenance of our waters but to our national security.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

T2. The Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency has announced proposals to close eight of its labs, including both Welsh sites at Aberystwyth and Ceredigion. I am informed that closure of the Welsh sites will result in a 24-hour delay in diagnosing livestock diseases—an unacceptable period that could leave the communities I represent terribly exposed. Does the Minister agree that it is a disgrace that this decision was made without any consultation with the Welsh Government or the farming and workers trade unions?

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)]

As I mentioned earlier, this was a decision by the agency, but I understand that it was discussed with the equivalent agency and the chief vet in Wales. No sites are being closed. As I said, this is purely about the laboratory aspect, not the post-mortem aspect. I agree that 24 hours extra delay may be unacceptable, but that is not what is expected; we expect timeliness to remain as it is.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

The whole of the Commission’s proposed reform of the CAP should address the twin challenges that the hon. Lady describes. Obviously, it is the combination of direct payments and the payments under pillar two—in particular, in this country, the way we use agri-environment stewardship schemes—that balances best the environmental benefits with food production. That is why the coalition Government are committed to increasing by 80% higher level stewardship.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The Secretary of State will be aware of the unease among farmers in Wales and the Welsh Government about the UK Government’s current position on CAP reform. Will she inform the House what progress she is making in developing a joint negotiating position?

[Mrs Spelman]

My right hon. Friend the Minister of State and I took the opportunity to invite the Welsh Minister for Agriculture to meet the Commissioner with us as early as June last year. We have had successive meetings with all the devolved Administrations and will continue to do so, as the reform process is likely to take a great deal of time. I find that we have much in common with the Welsh Assembly’s position and believe that there is much that we can do as we negotiate the reform to ensure that we get a good deal for farmers in Wales.