UK’s Withdrawal from the EU

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), although I shall take a somewhat different tack. I shall make a couple of points about what the Prime Minister said yesterday about how things would be voted on in March, and about the related amendments on that issue that are on the Order Paper today.

Yesterday, for the first time, the Prime Minister was forced to admit that we do not actually have to leave the EU without a deal on 29 March, unless that is an outcome for which Parliament explicitly votes. That admission could, of course, have come much earlier, and was only dragged out of her by the threat of ministerial resignations, but it was an important admission all the same. She added that any extension must be short and limited, and must not go beyond the end of June, because that would create

“a much sharper cliff edge in a few months’ time.”—[Official Report, 26 February 2019; Vol. 655, c. 167.]

In other words, she told us that if March was a legal deadline, the end of June was a brick wall. However, there is no point in applying for an extension for a couple of months just to carry on the same parliamentary gridlock in which we lurch from one vote to another every fortnight without the fundamental issue ever being decided.

The Prime Minister is right about one thing. She was right to say that an extension like that on its own will not take no deal off the table. Unless something else changes, it will just give a bit more road for can-kicking. If we are to have an extension, it must be for a purpose, and that purpose should be clarity about the future relationship between the UK and the EU. We are having a huge argument about the withdrawal agreement when the fundamental choices about the future have not been faced up to, let alone decided.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

I am generally sympathetic to what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, but I should point out that at the start of the negotiations, it was the EU, and specifically the French, who insisted that we separate the leaving deal from the future deal. They are therefore now being a bit harsh in trying to pull them back together, are they not?

[Mr McFadden]

I think that it was a mistake to split them in that way, and I think that they need to be brought back together.

The future has been left blank. We know that we are leaving, and we are told that leave means leave, but leave to where, on what basis? Are we going to have a loose relationship that will mean significant economic disruption, especially for our multinational manufacturing supply chains, and different arrangements for Northern Ireland from those in the rest of the UK, or a closer relationship that will mean the UK’s obeying a whole series of rules over which it no longer has a say? That is the essential Brexit choice, and it has been the Brexit choice since day one. It ought to be spelt out clearly to people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

On 29 January, I abstained on the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady) partly because I did not understand it conceptually, but also because I did not see how it was acceptable for a Government to have their own policy and agreement to an international treaty amended by way of a Back-Bench amendment. In the meantime, on the same date, I was pleased to see the amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman) pass. Although it was not legally binding, it was important to put on record the unacceptability to the House of a no deal. I suspect that, without a Whip, the majority would have been very much more significant.

By 14 February, when this matter came back for debate, I voted for the Government motion, which essentially supported both the Brady and the Spelman amendments. I was sorry to see it defeated. The point here was not that I had suddenly succumbed to the wonders of the Brady position, but rather that I understood that some level of compromise was needed to give the Prime Minister a stable base on which to negotiate.

Of course many Members, myself included, are very concerned at further attempts to kick the can down the road yet again. The problem is that we have now run out of road and decisions will have to be taken. I am actually pretty open-minded on the terms of the deal for our withdrawal from the EU, although I shall certainly have more defined views on what our future relationship should be. To that extent, I would like to see time set aside for indicative votes to be held to debate our future relationship with the EU. We must now look forward to our future with the EU as a partner rather than just look back at how we get out of it. The key mistake we made on leaving was to start negotiations without an agreed position, which made us very easy prey for the EU negotiators. I will advocate Norway plus, and others may have different proposals, but the inaction cannot happen again as we head towards the next round of negotiations on a future deal.

However, my immediate concern is that we do not leave the EU without a deal and that we provide the breathing space that business so badly needs. To fall off the cliff would be to invite scarcity, lower living standards, lost employment and lower investment in the UK, and I share the concern of many MPs that the people will punish us for that. When I say “us” I mean all of us —not just the governing party, but the Opposition, who will be seen not to have acted in the national interest.

I certainly welcome the Prime Minister’s promise yesterday to allow a vote to extend article 50 in the event that the meaningful vote and then a no-deal resolution are rejected. The Government will need to elaborate on whether they will whip to oppose no deal and also to support any article 50 extension. The Minister seemed just a bit uneasy about answering that key question earlier today. Also, will the House determine the length of the extension, and if the EU makes a counter-proposal on the extension period, will the Government bring that period to the House for debate? The answer is seemingly yes from what the Minister said earlier, but I think that we will need further elaboration.

I am also still very concerned about the ongoing delays in bringing forward the meaningful vote, which I will support, with all its damaging delay implications for business. Let me be clear: I have no interest in delaying Brexit day, but nothing could be worse than leaving without a deal.

I was saddened to see the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition failing to engage immediately after heavily losing the first meaningful vote, which I supported. That was the wrong approach, and I think that the Prime Minister knows that we will sort this matter out only when she engages with all Members of this House who are prepared to take a sensible approach to negotiating with the EU. I was pleased to hear the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) confirm today that Labour is prepared to talk.

Since the votes on 29 January, I have seen nothing coming from the EU to suggest that it is prepared to reopen the terms of the withdrawal agreement—quite the opposite. That is not to say that we should not continue to engage with the EU. Indeed, it may be the case that we can agree some kind of ancillary document—perhaps a binding one—that provides a roadmap towards ending the need for the backstop.

Leaving the European Union

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Let me say first to the hon. Gentleman that I do indeed recognise the issue that he has raised. One of the early things that I did when I became Home Secretary was agree that the United Kingdom should be part of the European Investigation Order. I stood at this Dispatch Box while the hon. Gentleman’s right hon. and hon. Friends tried to prevent me from ensuring that we could keep measures such as the European arrest warrant.

Let me also say to the hon. Gentleman, however, that I believe that leaving with a deal is the right thing to be done for this country, for a variety of reasons. Most people focus on the trade and customs issues, but the security issues are just as important. That is why obviously in no-deal preparations we work with others across the European Union to see what arrangements can be in place in a no-deal, but it is also why the deal we have negotiated is the best thing to happen, because it allows us access to key areas such as the passenger name records and Prüm.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend please confirm whether over the last fortnight in conversations with EU members she has heard anything to suggest that any EU country would fail to give us an extension to article 50, and if that is the case what those reasons might be?

[The Prime Minister]

I have not been discussing with individual member states an extension to article 50; what I have been discussing with them is what the UK Parliament requires—what this House requires—in order to get the change that would secure a majority in this House for the withdrawal agreement. However, the point is very simple: were it to be the case that an extension of article 50 were requested by the UK, that would require the unanimous consent of all 27 members of the European Union. I have not had that discussion with them.

European Council

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I will certainly look into that issue and get back to the hon. and learned Lady about the specifics in terms of the Government’s stance on the case that is going to the court in Edinburgh. I know that she has taken a considerable interest in revoking article 50. I simply remind all Members that the Government have said that we will not revoke article 50, because it means staying in the European Union.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

I am one of the Members who would have and will support the Prime Minister’s deal, but I have to say that what is coming back to me from business, industry and the City is that we are haemorrhaging support and investment on a daily basis and it is getting worse. That is why I join hon. Members in saying, please think again about holding the vote and about considering a series of stand-alone resolutions, which mean that we can take a view and move on.

[The Prime Minister]

I understand the concern that my hon. Friend expresses about business. Business wants certainty. Business wants the deal. Business welcomed the deal when we negotiated it and I think that it still takes that approach. My hon. Friend referred to what have been called indicative votes—a number of motions that could be brought before the House. I have no plans for indicative votes. I say to him and other Members that it is necessary for the House to reflect on what Members want in terms of their responsibility to come to a decision on this matter. At the moment, there are a number of views in the House: some want to stay in the EU, some want to go for a second referendum, some would support no deal and some would support looking at other arrangements. As I said, any of those arrangements would require a withdrawal agreement, because they would require us to make clear the basis on which we are withdrawing from the European Union.

Leaving the EU

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman will know that the political declaration states that we

“will…work together to identify the terms for the United Kingdom’s cooperation via Europol and Eurojust.”

We have always said that we recognise, for example, that payment may be needed for us to act as a member of, or have some participation in, Europol and Eurojust, but the important point is that the concept of our being part of that, despite being a third country, is in there.

I believe it is important that we have had this exchange before in the House, and I believe it is important that we have within this the terms for ensuring that we have surrender arrangements like the European arrest warrant. Of course, the issue of the determination of courts in relation to the surrender matters is one that we will be considering, but we are clear that jurisdiction in these matters is for the UK courts.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

I congratulate the Prime Minister on securing what I believe is a fair and reasonable deal. There will come a time—some time before July next year, and possibly well before then—when she will have to take a view on whether we head towards a possible backstop or increase the implementation period. I should be interested to hear what considerations she thinks might arise as to which route she takes at that time.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. July 2020 is set in the withdrawal agreement as the date by which a decision will be taken, and there will be a number of issues to be taken into account at that stage. The first will be the key question of whether the future relationship would not be in place by the end of December 2020, and whether the extended period would therefore be necessary for either the backstop or the implementation period, or alternative arrangements. A balanced judgment would be made. In the implementation period, there would be an expectation of a financial obligation; there would not be a financial obligation were we in the backstop. We would not have free movement were we in the backstop; free movement would almost certainly be required to continue in the event of an extended implementation period. Those are the sorts of issues that would need to be balanced at that time.

October EU Council

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Monday 22nd October 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We are obviously committed to no hard border, and we have made it clear that in any circumstances, including in a no-deal situation, we would be doing all that we could to ensure that there was no hard border. We would look to work with Ireland and the European Union to ensure that there was no hard border, but there has been no commitment in relation to that.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Given how tantalisingly close we are to a deal, if time were to run out, has the Prime Minister considered, rather than having a general election or a second referendum, the use of applying to extend article 50, even if it is for a limited period, so that she can kick the ball over the line?

[The Prime Minister]

We have said right from the beginning that we would not be looking to extend article 50. This refers back to an earlier question from one of our right hon. Friends about people actually wanting to see that we are leaving the European Union. I think we owe it to people to deliver on this. What we want now is to have the decisions that finalise the negotiations to ensure that we get that good deal.

Salisbury Update

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Wednesday 5th September 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I will write to the hon. Lady about that particular question.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

As my right hon. Friend pointed out earlier, during the summer the United States increased its sanctions against Russia specifically as a result of this heinous crime. To what extent are we intending to replicate the sanctions that the US has put in place? Are we are intending to get our EU allies to do the same?

[The Prime Minister]

Obviously, we have worked closely with our EU allies and others in relation to sanctions on Russia, for which there are various reasons at the moment due to the various aspects of malign state activity. I have referenced the chemical weapons sanctions regime that the EU has agreed in principle, and we will be working with our allies on that. Of course, after 29 March next year, we will have our own sanctions powers in place as an independent state, but we will want to continue to work with allies and others on that.

To clarify a point I made in response to other questions about the new power to stop at the border those concerned with hostile state activity, that matter is contained within the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill, which is currently before the House. I may have given the impression that the measure had already been passed, but it is currently before the House.

Salisbury Incident

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. He is absolutely right: it is imperative that in this country we recognise the nature of the threat and actions Russia has taken through a wide range of means. I am also clear that, as we consider what further actions need to be taken, we must ensure they are robust, clearly defend our values here in the UK and send a clear message to those who would seek to undermine them.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

I congratulate the Prime Minister on her robust stance against Russian aggression. She will be aware that the most effective sanctions are those taken multilaterally. The concern of some is that when we leave the EU, we will lose our seat at the table on the body that sets those sanctions. Will she therefore reassure us that a lot of effort will go into building up a new relationship to ensure continuity in our approach towards Russia?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) raised this issue of collective action. Obviously, as my hon. Friend says, the position in relation to the UK Government’s actions on sanctions will change when we leave the EU, and we are putting in place measures to ensure that the UK can act independently, but I also made it clear in my Mansion House speech that we would want to work with our allies on such issues. As he and the hon. Gentleman have said, sanctions are more effective when undertaken collectively.

Brexit Negotiations

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Monday 11th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We are not talking about paying for access to something in the future. There might be certain programmes and areas of which we do want to remain a member—[Interruption.] I have given examples in the past. In justice and home affairs, there may be some areas in which it makes sense for the United Kingdom to continue to operate with members of the European Union. The commitments that are set out in the joint progress report are very clear. This is about honouring the commitments that we have made in the context of agreeing the future partnership.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

In congratulating the Prime Minister and the Brexit Secretary on this very significant achievement, may I point out that when the Brexit Committee met Mr Barnier recently, he spoke about decoupling future security discussions from future trade discussions? I would be interested to hear my right hon. Friend’s views on whether that is the right way forward.

[The Prime Minister]

As we move into the next phase, we will be negotiating our future relationship and future partnership with the European Union. That will be across all aspects of our current relationship with the European Union, so it will be about negotiating on trade and negotiating on security. I set out in my Florence speech that we expect to negotiate a separate treaty on our security arrangements and co-operation.

European Council

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Monday 23rd October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I think it is time to hear from the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), whose father is a sound Arsenal fan.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Actually, he always used to take me to Nottingham Forest, but there you are.

In contrast to the disappointment coming consistently from the bureaucracy of Europe, in my right hon. Friend’s discussions with the leadership—the politicians—of Europe and individual member states, is the position more nuanced? Is there hope for optimism?

[The Prime Minister]

Yes, there is hope for optimism. Obviously, we are negotiating a future partnership. One of the interesting issues is that the EU27 are themselves starting to think about their future and the nature of the relationship and arrangements they will have. We are working to negotiate that deal. As I indicated to the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), we will start those trade negotiations on the same basis of trading, which will make it easier for us, as it will not need to be as bureaucratic as it might in other circumstances.

European Council

Jonathan Djanogly Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The European Union is looking initially at working with a small number of African countries to ensure that support is available to reduce the number of people who wish to move to Europe. The Khartoum process is an important element of the work that is being done. The UK has consistently said that we need to operate upstream. That is about working with source countries, working with the transit countries and dealing with the organised crime groups that are engaged in these horrific crimes of people smuggling and human trafficking which are leading to misery. As I say, the EU is looking at dealing initially with a small number of countries, but of course we recognise that it is difficult to return people to some countries. It is important to accept the principle and start to put into practice the process of working with people upstream.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Technically, it seems that the UK cannot enter into trade deals with third-party countries while we are still a member of the EU. It is also generally acknowledged that we will start to do this at some point before we leave. Is this an issue that my right hon. Friend has looked at? Is there some timetable to work to here? Was it mentioned at the summit?

[The Prime Minister]

As far as the summit is concerned, my point was that any discussions on trade deals with third countries are not in competition with what the EU is doing. We continue to press for the EU-Japan deal and we continue to press the benefits of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership around the European Union table. My hon. Friend is right that there is a limit to what we can do when it comes to entering into a trade arrangement before we have left the EU, but that does not mean that we cannot scope out negotiations and start to have those discussions, which indeed we are doing with a number of countries.