Article 50: Parliamentary Approval

Debate between John Penrose and Wayne David

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[John Penrose]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right—the focus now must be on how we get this done in the best and most constructive way possible for our nation. There will be opportunities and great new horizons as a result of the decision. We need to make sure we are clear about them and that we are set up in the right way to grab those opportunities as they present themselves.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

As things stand, Britain will have two years to withdraw from the European Union once it invokes article 50, but most analysts say that it will take much longer than two years for Britain successfully to extricate itself and have a new relationship. Have the Government therefore considered approaching member states about a possible extension to that period?

[John Penrose]

As I understand it, I think that any alteration to the article 50 process requires unanimity from other EU member states, which represents a pretty high bar for any Government. I am sure that that factor will be considered by the incoming Prime Minister and her negotiating team. I am also sure that they will want to consider many other options to maximise our negotiating leverage. As I have said, the hon. Gentleman and I will have to wait until the new Prime Minister is ready to announce precisely how she and her team wish to approach these issues.

DRAFT NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES (REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE) (AMENDMENT) ORDER 2016 DRAFT NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES (REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) ORDER 2016 DRAFT POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONER ELECTIONS (AMENDMENT) ORDER 2016

Debate between John Penrose and Wayne David

Tuesday 1st March 2016 General Committees

[John Penrose]

I will happily respond to the hon. Gentleman’s points, taking each of them in turn. First, however, I want to welcome the general support with which he finished his remarks. It is welcome to hear that the proposals have cross-party support. I was hoping—indeed, he has confirmed it—that this would be an uncontroversial piece of important electoral plumbing and that there would be no need to find party political differences in it.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned that turnout at the first police and crime commissioner elections was relatively low. He and I are both hoping for a dramatically higher turnout this time. I agree with him that the omens are propitious and positive, partly because, as he says, the elections will be held in May, which is usually reckoned to be a better time of year, but also because other elections are taking place on the same day. Given the overlap with other elections, there may be occasional concerns about complexity, but there is no doubt that it can also help to drive up turnout. I hope that democrats on all sides of different political divides will want to see a better turnout than last time at polling stations in early May. I obviously cannot comment on whether the Cabinet Office will do a better job of electoral administration than the Home Office, as the hon. Gentleman kindly suggested, so we shall have to wait and see. With any luck it will be a step in the right direction.

The hon. Gentleman then talked about some risks—as opposed to serious issues—that were flagged up by the Electoral Commission, particularly in relation to the three different forms of voting being used on the same day. There are two varying forms of alternative or proportional voting and one more traditional first-past-the-post system. He is absolutely right that there is always the potential for confusion, but when we have combined polls in all parts of the UK, in practice we tend to see that voters are pretty canny and capable of coping. Providing that the electoral administration is done in such a way as to have separate ballot papers for each election—most commonly the ballot papers are of different colours—that allows voters to draw a mental distinction between the one, two or three different polls on the same day and to politically and intellectually change gear, as it were, as they fill out one and then move on to the next.

The only time we have had serious concerns about that sort of thing was in Scotland back in 2007, when there was an attempt to combine some ballot papers. That created some concerns but, broadly speaking, electors seem to be capable of coping pretty well. One would obviously not want to push the point too far, but we are not expecting the different elections to be a major problem on this occasion.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned voting errors. I did mention in my speech the point about electoral administration, but it bears repeating. The instrument provides that where PCC and Assembly elections are combined in the voting areas, the polls for the PCC election will be administered on the ground using the same voting area—that is, the Assembly constituencies—and by a single returning officer. That is a crucial point. The returning officer for a voting area will be the local returning officer for the PCC poll, who is the returning officer for the Assembly constituency. I hope that means that the administration is a great deal clearer and that lines of accountability and responsibility are very clear indeed. The arrangement directly matches the recommendations of both the Electoral Commission and the electoral administrators in Wales. I hope that has maximised our chances of success and clarity on that point.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned concerns about Welsh language forms. As I said, there was a great deal of concern last time when problems were discovered with the accuracy of the translation of Welsh language forms. I can confirm that two things have happened since then. First, additional checks are now in place to ensure that such a thing is much less likely to happen—it was not terribly likely in the first place, but it is even less likely now. Secondly, as I think the hon. Gentleman mentioned, electoral administration is one of the matters that will be devolved when the Wales Bill has passed through Parliament and become the Wales Act, so this might be the very last time we have to debate the issue in this place; in future it will be dealt with by the Welsh Government in Cardiff.

[Wayne David]

I very much hope that such matters can be dealt with by the Assembly in Cardiff, but over the past few days things have moved on, with the Secretary of State indicating that his own draft Bill is not fit for purpose and going back to the drawing board. It might be quite a while before we have such a Bill before us.

[John Penrose]

I hesitate to put words in his mouth—I am sort of paraphrasing—but I think that the Secretary of State said that the Bill would none the less be reintroduced in the second Session of this Parliament, so the hon. Gentleman will not have to wait too long. If he can possess his soul in patience, I hope that he, and everybody else who is in favour of devolution—I hope that is everybody—will be reassured and will look forward to the result.

The hon. Gentleman asked a rather technical question about the running of the poll in the Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney constituency. I have been searching for inspiration and will now assay an answer for him—we will see how it goes. He is absolutely right to say that the constituency is the only one to cross a police area boundary. The PCC order amends the definition of voting area for PCC elections where they are combined with Assembly elections so that both sets of elections can be administered on the basis of the same voting area—that is, Welsh Assembly constituencies, as I was just reminding the Committee—by a single returning officer. That will facilitate the running of the polls.

The Electoral Commission also issues guidance to returning officers to help them in their planning for the poll and to carry out their duties. I am sure that the commission will be able to give specific help to the administrators running the poll in that constituency, but the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that it will perhaps require some special focus and some special guidelines or guidance to ensure that it is done cleanly and effectively.

I hope that I have covered all the questions and provided everybody with answers. With that, I commend all three orders to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

DRAFT NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES (REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) ORDER 2016

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2016.—(John Penrose.)

DRAFT POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONER ELECTIONS (AMENDMENT) ORDER 2016

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) Order 2016.—(John Penrose.)

Electoral Law

Debate between John Penrose and Wayne David

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 General Committees

[John Penrose]

I am not sure of the formal status of our reasoned opinion, but as I plan to state later on, we disagree with large chunks of the proposal, so I cannot see that we will approve it in any form.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

These are, of course, early days in terms of negotiations on what has been suggested by the European Parliament. I think the proposals will initially be considered under the Dutch presidency. Will the Government commit, rather than simply waiting until the end of the process and exercising their veto then if necessary, to contributing positively to make sure that we have allies among other member states on what the European Parliament has suggested?

[John Penrose]

Everybody in all parts of the House keeps telling one another—and the Government—that we need to engage early in any deliberations going on in Brussels to influence what is happening before it is too fully baked—before proposals start to harden. I hope that we are contributing constructively, but in this case, quite critically, to what is proposed. I would expect that with the aid of my colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, we will continue to do so during the passage of this proposal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Howarth, to serve under your chairmanship. For 10 years I was a Member of the European Parliament.

[John Penrose]

Our deepest condolences.

[Wayne David]

I hope I have recovered from that experience, but obviously I have learned from it. Certainly by the end of the 10 years I was there, I was a convinced European—and still am. I think Britain’s future lies in co-operation with our European partners, and that makes good practical sense, in the modern world especially. But I have to say that does not make me uncritical of the European Union—indeed, I am not uncritical of the European Parliament.

One of the concerns I had then, and still have now, is about the desire of the European Parliament, as an institution, to continually obtain more powers for itself, almost irrespective of the subject under consideration. The automatic position was to gain more powers. Sometimes that is correct, but quite often it is incorrect, because I firmly believe that the European Union fundamentally is an association of independent, democratic states, which come together and pool their sovereignty from time to time, where appropriate. I think that is the essence of the European Union, and I think that should be respected by all the member states, but also all the institutions that make up the European Union.

Fundamental to that concept of the European Union is the principle of subsidiarity. Decisions should be taken at the most appropriate level, but as close to the people as possible. That implies a clear role in the construction of Europe for local and regional government, but also member states, and also, where appropriate, the institutions of the European Union. Given that over the past few years the principle of subsidiarity has become, by common consent, more and more important, the European Scrutiny Committee believes that, on this occasion, the Government have not attached sufficient weight to it. That worries me greatly, because although I do not agree with the European Scrutiny Committee on everything, nevertheless I recognise that a great deal of time, effort and detailed consideration have gone into its deliberations. It worries me that, in its view, the Government have not paid sufficient attention to that principle.

Equally, it also worries me that the European Scrutiny Committee has come to the conclusion that the Government have not given due weight to the financial implications of the European Parliament’s suggestions. All the measures are practical and they have a cost implication. It is very important that when the Government set out their case, they consider the financial ramifications. Unfortunately, the Minister has not really touched on those, and I hope that he will have an opportunity in the debate to give us some indication of the cost implications should the measures be adopted in part or in whole.

I am also concerned about the European Parliament’s innate desire always to accrue more powers for members of that Parliament. Linked to that is my concern that, all too often, the European Parliament believes in the desirability of uniformity across member states. Of course, one of the great things about Europe is that it is a celebration of diversity, and we should not only recognise that but be proud of it. That certainly holds in terms of our commitment to democracy. We are all in favour of the universal franchise. In the case of the European Parliament elections, we have all signed up to a system of proportional representation for elected Members of the European Parliaments, but that differs markedly from one member state to another, as does the system of election. There are certain traditions and practical reasons why that should be the case, and therefore I am concerned that the European Parliament should propose basically a straitjacket by suggesting that all member states should adhere to a rigid set of proposals that the Parliament thinks is appropriate. I do not think that there is any logical, intellectual reason for that bland uniform approach. It would be far better to adhere to the principle of recognising that there are different ways of conducting elections, domestic or for the European Parliament, in democratic countries.

Can the Minister tell us what is the member states’ position on this, in particular that of the British Government? What is the role of the European Commission, because I understand that it is currently engaged in its own review of the last European Parliament elections, and that it will make proposals to improve the system in respect of next elections to that Parliament? The European Commission has its own proposals, but the European Parliament, another European institution, has its proposals as well. It will be interesting to hear how those two sets of proposals fit together, assuming that they do, and what the response of the Council, representing the member states, will be to that other institution’s response.

More specifically—I do not want to go through all the points listed by the Minister that have been made by the European Parliament—I shall focus on two points. First, on electronic and postal voting, as the Minister said, postal voting is used widely in this country and, increasingly so in the past few years. Not only is it popular but it is an effective way for voters to express their democratic view. Clearly, on electronic voting, there are cost implications and, as he suggested, there are security implications too. I do not think that technology is sufficiently advanced for me to say, hand on heart, that it is possible, perhaps in any member state, to have a watertight system that would ensure full participation along with security and confidence in the system.

Will the Minister look to the future and say whether or not the Government are considering more generally the issue of online voting to enhance the democratic process in this country? We are all surprised by the way in which technology has advanced in the past few years, and the Government should give active consideration to whether that is a feasible option in the not too distant future.

I should also like to raise the issue of the President of the European Commission and the spitzenkandidaten. To be honest, I was slightly confused when I read the recommendation from the European Parliament. I understood the first proposal that European Parliament elections should be contested by formal EU-wide lead candidates, but I did not understand precisely what was meant when I read that a joint constituency should be established in which lists were headed by each political family’s candidate. The Government are not inclined to adopt any of these suggestions, but will the Minister shed some light on what the European Parliament meant? On the face of it, it appears to be a radical suggestion that is not in keeping with custom and practice in most member states, and certainly not in this country.

I would appreciate clarification on those points, and I should like in general terms to have a cast-iron commitment from the Government that they will do everything possible, rather than simply waiting until the end of the process and exercising a veto, to engage actively with other member states, which I am sure share our concerns that the proposals should be put to one side, so that the EU can focus on more consensual and immediate matters.

draft Recall of MPs Act 2015 (Recall Petition) regulations 2016

Debate between John Penrose and Wayne David

Monday 25th January 2016 General Committees

[John Penrose]

I will endeavour to respond to each of those points as we go, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Caerphilly will interject if he feels that I am skating too lightly over any particular point of detail.

First, I offer huge congratulations to the hon. Gentleman on being one of the very few other people who have actually read this whole thing, including right down to the end of paragraph 7.7 of the explanatory memorandum. That attention to detail is very impressive indeed.

Let me start with the hon. Gentleman’s point about signing by post. He will be aware that during any election there is a process, which is normally condensed into a single day, when people who have voted by post can, in theory, turn up on the day of the poll with their postal vote form and present it, saying, “I am eligible to vote by post, but I am choosing to vote in person. Here is my postal vote form.” They hand it in at the polling station and that is then a valid vote.

The signing process takes place over a period of up to six weeks, and there will therefore have to be a continuous check to ensure that, when we get to the end, people have not had a chance to sign twice. As the hon. Gentleman will know, normally the registration forms that are held at individual local polling stations are adjusted to make sure that it is clear whether someone has a postal vote, so that the person who issues the ballot papers can make the necessary checks if required and then the necessary reconciliations can be made.

We will have to make sure that, in the case of signatories, the necessary reconciliations can happen, albeit over a longer period—so it is actually easier in some respects to ensure sure that these checks are being made. It should be easier to make sure that people cannot sign twice, in the same way that we do not allow people to vote twice on a polling day. However, the checks and the principle underlying the process—the mechanics—will, of course, still be the same

The hon. Gentleman asked about running totals during the signing period of six weeks. He asked specifically about the final sentence in paragraph 7.7 of the explanatory memorandum. It might help the Committee if I read the entire sentence, which I think is clear. However, if it is not clear, we may need to adjust latter guidelines and so forth to make sure that it is clear. The sentence reads:

“Importantly, the results of daily verification will not be made public so as to allow for a tally to be made on the number of persons that have signed the petition.”

Providing that the emphasis is put in the right place as one reads that sentence out, I think that it is clear that the results are not being made public so that people cannot do that. However, if it later seems that there is scope for confusion among people outside this place, of course we will need to make sure that any advice and guidelines are adjusted as we go.

[Wayne David]

I appreciate what the Minister is saying, but having spoken to a number of people, I know that they share my concern that that is slightly unclear, at the very least, and slightly ambiguous. It would be helpful if he went away and devised a clearer form of words so that we do not have that ambiguity.

[John Penrose]

We will try to ensure that there is plenty of opportunity for further guidelines to be issued by bodies such as the Electoral Commission. We need to make sure that everyone is aware of this particular important point, so that future guidelines and commentary are as clear as they can possibly be.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned a number of points that the Electoral Commission had suggested. While we followed the commission’s advice in many areas, there were two areas where we differed slightly.

One was on the question of accredited observers and where they will be allowed to observe. We decided that they should be allowed in to things such as the count and so on and so forth, but not to the actual signing places themselves because, as I mentioned in my initial remarks, the difference between an election and a petition is that, if someone goes in to sign a petition, it is very clear which side of the argument they are on. Therefore, one of the central principles of our democracy—that every ballot should be secret—is very hard to maintain given the fact that, if someone goes in to sign a petition, they are, by definition, on one side, and if they do not turn up, they are on the other side. We thought that the danger of eroding the secrecy of the ballot box in an election, and not maintaining that properly in a petition, was quite great, and therefore we felt that it was inappropriate to have people observing that stage. Once a petition has been signed and safely consigned to the petition box, it becomes anonymous, and at later points in the process it is therefore safer to have accredited observers, such as at the count, in the way that the hon. Gentleman and I have just discussed.

[Wayne David]

Will the Minister clarify what would happen if a person went along to the signing station and signed the petition, but then decided to spoil their paper? Would their vote be counted one way or another?

[John Penrose]

The regulations lay out what has to happen. In the same way as for people who spoil a ballot paper in a regular election, I presume there will be the equivalent of a bad and doubtful ballot paper process, which the hon. Gentleman and I, and I am sure every other candidate, has had to go through—it would have to be clear that a clear opinion and a clear intention has been produced. If that is not clear on the signing sheet, the presiding officer will have to take a view, and presumably the accredited observers in the room will also have to have a look. Broadly speaking, the same underlying principle, which is that a clear intention has to be visible, will be applied here, too.

The hon. Gentleman also asked about user testing the notice letters versus the notice cards. When the petition is first begun, we need to make sure that everybody knows that they can sign, but not that they need to sign, particularly if they disagree and feel that the MP concerned should not be subject to a recall by-election. As I mentioned earlier, the content of the words has been extensively user tested. As a secondary, follow-up point, he said that he feels that some of those words are perhaps a little verbose. All I can say is that they were extensively user tested. They may be longer than he and I might have started off with, but they were felt to be the ones that worked, with feedback from genuine voters, which is probably the safest and most fact-based approach that we could possibly take. The content was extensively user tested.

We went with letters rather than cards, principally to distinguish a petition from a poll. Clearly, many people will understand that those of us who are democratically responsive and responsible feel a certain duty to go and use our democratic rights when it comes to a poll, and we do not want to establish that when it comes to a petition because the very fact of feeling under pressure to go to sign a petition actually pushes people towards one side of the argument rather than the other, which could, if done wrongly, prejudice the underlying fairness of the petition. The letter was therefore felt appropriate, having road tested the contents of the piece of paper to ensure that its format is clearly different from a poll notice card so that people will have an additional, perhaps even subconscious, mental cue that this is not quite the same as an election, albeit that it is similar in many respects.

[Wayne David]

I agree with much of what the Minister says but, nevertheless, he is talking about a letter being used for the first time, rather than a polling card. As he tested the words on the poll card, surely it would have been sensible to test the words on the letter, too.

[John Penrose]

I find myself in something of a cleft stick at this point, because the hon. Gentleman and all here will realise that we are now several months on from the end of the last Parliament. Everybody here wants to ensure that the Recall of MPs Act 2015 is fully in force promptly. We can carry on testing things until we are blue in the face, but we have tested an awful lot of this in huge detail and with huge care. At some point we have to stop testing and start doing. I am not aware, and I am sure he is not aware, of any pending cases, but it would be truly contrary to the spirit of democracy—he and I would both be very upset were this to happen—were we still to be dotting i’s and crossing t’s on this stuff if a case came up tomorrow, next week or soon without these regulations being in place. Both he and I would be accused of dereliction of duty were that to happen. We have tested the substance, the guts, of this in huge detail. If it later transpires that there is some question over this, of course we can come back to it, but at some point we just have to get on with it. Otherwise we will be accused of delaying things in an attempt to protect the livelihood of MPs, which of course is entirely contrary to the spirit of the Act.

Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked about Welsh forms. I am sad to hear that my ignorance of the language of heaven is perhaps only exceeded by his, but I can reassure him that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments now includes a Welsh speaker. I am not sure whether that member is familiar with what I hesitate to call the Queen’s Welsh.

[Wayne David]

BBC Welsh.

[John Penrose]

BBC Welsh, as opposed to more colloquial Welsh. I am not sure whether that Welsh speaker can do either or both, but it is noticeable that the JCSI’s scrutiny of such things has moved up a notch since that has happened. We are therefore probably better placed than we ever have been. Beyond that, as the hon. Gentleman might expect, we check with a number of other Welsh translation services, too. We have covered as many bases as we humanly can but, given the fact that neither he nor I are quite as fluent in Welsh as might be required to make this perfect, we will have to take it on trust. I am sure that the Welsh people will let us know very loudly if they feel that we have let them down in any way, but I hope that we have not.

Question put and agreed to.

House of Lords Reform

Debate between John Penrose and Wayne David

Thursday 14th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[John Penrose]

That is very helpful in clarifying the SNP’s view and it leads me to talk about opportunities for reform. I, and the Government, would certainly favour keeping a second Chamber and making it more effective if the opportunity ever presented itself. There are huge advantages to having an effective second Chamber here. I say that because often the level of scrutiny imposed on any Government by the second Chamber is not a comfortable experience. It has not always been a comfortable experience for previous Labour, Conservative or even coalition Governments. Even though it is not necessarily easy or comfortable—on occasions it can be incredibly frustrating—I believe it is democratically justified and desirable, and that it results, at least in Westminster, in better law. I went along to the Lords yesterday and stood at the Bar, listening to its debate on the Strathclyde review. I challenge anybody to say it was not a high-quality and capable discussion, conducted at a high level and very clearly expressed. It has a great deal to offer, regardless of its legitimacy, and our democracy would be the poorer without a revising second Chamber.

As colleagues on both sides have said, however, we need to be careful about the Lords’ powers and composition. The problem is agreeing not on the need for reform but on how we do it. As the hon. Member for Stirling (Steven Paterson) said, we should be discussing not whether change is needed but what kind of change could be achieved. That is where we all come up against a serious and fundamental practical problem. While many people agree that some kind of reform and improved democratic legitimacy for the upper House is vital, agreeing on its form and creating a democratic consensus about what it should look like—as opposed simply to agreeing that there should be something—is a great deal harder. And that is what politics is all about; it is about forging the necessary democratic consensus. I think the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) mentioned the need for a democratic debate.

We need to forge a democratic consensus not on the need for change but on the form it should take. That is where the previous attempt in the last Parliament came unstuck. There were far too many competing recipes for what the revised House of Lords might look like and a plethora of different approaches. It came unstuck not because of a lack of ideas but because there were too many ideas and not enough people agreed on any one of them, and therefore the opponents of reform won through.

[Wayne David]

I agree with the Minister. Do we not need to learn the lesson that, if any good fundamental reform is to take place successfully, there must be cross-party dialogue and debate and an attempt to find consensus across the House?

[John Penrose]

I would broaden out that point. It is hugely helpful, although not essential, for any constitutional change to be made with some cross-party agreement, if only because—this is one of the fundamental points of Britain’s unwritten constitution—people need to be happy not just with how things work when they are in government but when the shoe is on the other foot and they are in opposition, because they need to bear it in mind that at some point they might not be in government. Good Governments and good Oppositions remember that point and proceed with caution and agreement wherever possible. It is not always possible, but when it can be done, it should be.

The challenge is not to agree that change is necessary but to define precisely what form it should take and to form a sufficiently large consensus to overcome the forces of inertia, which, if we are not careful, naturally tend to win—I do not know whether it is inertia or entropy, but either way, it is what happened last time.

draft European Parliamentary Elections (Miscellaneous Provisions) (United Kingdom and gibraltar) order 2015

Debate between John Penrose and Wayne David

Wednesday 25th November 2015 General Committees

[John Penrose]

I am glad to hear that the Opposition are supporting the regulations, and I am happy to answer the questions as part of that process. The hon. Gentleman made a point about electoral finance. Broadly speaking, the European Union Referendum Bill tries to ensure that the status of any kind of donor is on all fours, whether they start from Gibraltar or Devizes or anywhere else in the south-west. He is right to say that some of the legal background in Gibraltar is inevitably and necessarily different.

I am that sure the hon. Gentleman will have observed that in the EU Referendum Bill we have tried to apply the general principle that, no matter whether someone is making a donation from the UK or from Gibraltar, broadly the same principles apply in every case. Nothing about that is changed by anything in this set of provisions. I can reassure him that we are not doing anything that would alter any of that. I do not want to try your patience, Mr Hanson, by straying too far into the detail of the Bill, since that is a separate point. Broadly speaking, the principles laid out in the Bill are as I have said they are, and they are not altered by what we are discussing.

On the mandate of the Electoral Commission, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that, unusually for referendums—is it referendums or referenda?—effectively the returning officer for a national poll of that kind is the head of the Electoral Commission. They have a legal position and duty in relation to referendums, which is normally taken by individual constituency returning officers and counting agents.

The entire referendum will be administered legally and led by the Electoral Commission in that respect. That will apply for the mainland UK and all other applicable areas. Again, because of the different legal background in Gibraltar, that may need to have some different legal mechanisms to be delivered, but broadly speaking the principle is clear and applies throughout.

[Wayne David]

I do not want to try the patience of the Chair. I appreciate that that answer is specific to the EU Referendum—is it an Act now or still a Bill?

[John Penrose]

It is still a Bill.

[Wayne David]

My comment, which takes its cue from the explanatory memorandum, is slightly broader than that, relating to elections more generally, and to European Parliament elections in particular, which in many ways are unique. The explanatory memorandum refers to them in the background section, if not in the specifics of the draft order. Would the Minister care to comment on those elections?

[John Penrose]

I am happy to do that. I can confirm to the hon. Gentleman that for these electoral purposes, and particularly for European parliamentary elections, as he mentioned, Gibraltar is part of the south-west region and, broadly speaking, the Electoral Commission’s legal functions in Gibraltar are the same as they are in the rest of the UK. I hope that explicitly clarifies that point.

With that, Mr Hanson, I commend the order to the Committee and hope that we can move on and count it as passed.

Question put and agreed to.

Individual Electoral Registration

Debate between John Penrose and Wayne David

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[John Penrose]

I cannot, partly because I have not given the speech yet, and partly because, as I said to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), registering people who are not on the register needs to happen, regardless of when the transition from the old system to individual electoral registration ends, because the transition will not affect people who are not already on the register. It is a parallel process that needs to be done anyway.

[Wayne David]

That is missing the point entirely. We are asking the Minister to give us one good reason why it is better to introduce IER in December 2015, rather than December 2016. We are still waiting.

[John Penrose]

I was just coming on to that. I want to address the fundamental point about how we are going to deal with the problem of under-represented groups on our registers, which is crucial and underlies many of the concerns.

Let me move on to the timing of the transition to IER. As we have heard in many speeches today, there is a presumption that this process is going remove eligible voters from the electoral roll. I want fundamentally to question that presumption. During the course of a year a large number people on the electoral register—a very large number in some places, and in other places fewer people—move house. Some sadly die, and there are fraudulent entries in some parts of the country, although not in all—the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) rightly said that fraud is not an issue in all parts of the country. That is the natural state of any database. It is natural for any electoral register to contain such data errors.

We have to sort through the 1.9 million people whose entries are incomplete and who had not made the transition as of the general election date of May this year to find which are genuine voters with a pulse—people who are eligible to vote. We need to identify them, confirm their ID in the way that we have been discussing and ensure that they are confirmed on the electoral register. Then the only entries left will be the people who are no longer there—the people who have moved, died or were never there in the first place because they were fraudulent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Smith]

My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) talked about the fundamental importance of registration for our democracy. The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) had some good ideas about voter vouchers for 18-year-olds. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) talked about how exciting campaigns can boost registration, which is the gold standard for us all.

We want exciting campaigns that energise our voters and promote democracy. We had interventions from my hon. Friends the Members for Neath (Christina Rees), for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) and for York Central (Rachael Maskell). My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) probed an important point about student registration.

In this important debate, I have tried to emphasise that bringing forward individual electoral registration at this time is a body blow to our democracy. Colleagues have highlighted under-registration in their constituencies, where key groups of people, such as those in rented accommodation and young people, are being squeezed off the register. The Minister made some constructive comments, and I look forward to reading his speech once he has given it in a few days. I would be grateful if he sent me a link.

[Wayne David]

He could send a copy to all of us.

[John Penrose]

indicated assent.

Scotland Bill

Debate between John Penrose and Wayne David

Monday 15th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David]

I wish to focus on two issues, the first of which is individual electoral registration. We know full well that IER is imminent. There is some debate with the Electoral Commission, which is conducting its assessment, as to the completeness of the registers and whether or not IER will be introduced at the end of 2016 or 2015. Labour Members think it is essential that we have a complete register as far as is humanly practicable. We urge the Government and all other bodies to ensure that every effort is made to get as many people on to the register as possible. What is essential in any democracy is that people who are entitled to vote are on the register and able to choose whether to cast their vote.

That is why we think it is important that this be not only a responsibility of central Government, but a devolved matter. As we have heard, the Scottish Parliament has some responsibilities already on the conduct of elections. I am sure it shares our view of wanting to make sure that as many people as possible who are able to vote are on the electoral register. Our amendments provide practical means of providing that assessment, but we also urge that every consideration be given by the Scottish Parliament to ensuring that we do have people on that register.

As things stand, the Electoral Commission has indicated that as many as 7.5 million eligible voters are not registered. Multiple elections are coming up next year, including the Scottish Parliament elections, and the Government need to take action, as does everybody else, to ensure that a boost is given to electoral registration. We think that lessons can be learned from Scotland’s extension of the franchise in the referendum to 16 and 17-year-olds and the effort made to ensure that a special procedure was in place to ensure the maximum registration of young people. Those lessons need to be learned, acted upon and taken much further.

Labour Members are particularly concerned about the need to ensure that as many young people as possible register and that procedures are in place to ensure that college and university students are able to do so. We would like registration to be carried out en bloc by the student authorities, as it used to be. Given the increase in the private rented sector, there is a particular need for its involvement. The Government should be working much more closely with letting agencies so as to include reminders to register for all new tenants. Those issues are very important and I hope they will be given due consideration.

We would also like to press our amendment 43, on the European Union referendum. We are fully aware that that Bill is passing through this House, but the great concern out there in the country is to ensure that we have a proper, reasonable, rational and focused debate on Britain’s membership of the European Union. For that debate to take place, it is imperative that there are no other elections that will take people’s attention away from the central direction on which they must focus. We are mindful that the Electoral Commission, which has studied this matter in a great deal of depth, has said unequivocally that there should be a separation between the European Union referendum and other elections. It takes an emphatic stance. It says:

“It is important that voters and campaigners are able to engage fully with the issues which are relevant at these elections. It is also important that any debate about the UK’s membership of the European Union takes place at a time that allows the full participation of voters and campaigners, uncomplicated by competing messages and activity from elections which might be held on the same day.”

That is a pretty emphatic message by the non-political objective observers—people who have the responsibility to ensure that elections and referendums are conducted fairly and honestly. I strongly urge the Government to accept that amendment. If they are not minded to do so, we give notice that we will be pressing it to a vote.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (John Penrose)]

I thank the hon. Members for Moray (Angus Robertson), for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), and for Caerphilly (Wayne David) for their contributions to the debate on this group of amendments on the significant electoral powers that will be transferred to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government. I hope to respond to as many points as I can, but first let me deal with a number of minor and technical Government amendments before I get on to the meat of the points that have been made during the debate.

Government amendments 93, 94 and 97 amend and clarify the reserved undevolved powers in clause 3 in respect of enforcement provisions within the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 where they apply to other provisions that are also reserved. Government amendments 95 and 96 remove sections that do not need to be reserved in the 2000 Act as well. Amendments 106 and 107 are minor and technical amendments. Amendment 106 repeals the subsections inserted into the Scotland Act 1998 by section 13 of the Scotland Act 2012. Clause 11 brings the function of making an Order in Council under sections 15(1) and (2) of the 1998 Act within devolved competence and those subsections are therefore no longer required. Amendment 107 repeals section 13 of the Scotland Act 2012 entirely.

Amendment 101 relates to clause 5, which concerns the timing of Scottish parliamentary elections and local government elections in Scotland. It will ensure that general elections for the Scottish Parliament cannot be held on the same day as general elections to the UK Parliament or to the European Parliament or a local government election in Scotland. That is in line with the Smith commission agreement, as we heard from the hon. Member for Moray.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that the purpose of amendment 101 is to remove the provision from the clause that says that a general election to the Scottish Parliament cannot be held in the two months preceding a general election to the UK Parliament or a general election to the European Parliament. That brings us more closely in line with the Smith commission, and is, I hope, an example of cross-party working.

Amendments 92 and 98 are also minor and technical. The purpose of amendment 92 is to protect the individual electoral registration digital service from future technical changes, such as the transfer of functions between UK Ministers. Effectively, it is nothing more than a future-proofing move. If amendment 92 were not made, the effect may be to place an unintentional constraint on the future actions of both the UK and Scottish Governments. The amendment should protect against the potential need to amend the Act as the registration of electors and verification of applications to register via a digital service evolves.

Amendment 92 means that the definition of “digital service” and of “elections in Scotland” in clause 3 is no longer required. Amendment 98 therefore removes those definitions. It does not make the reservation any wider but gives additional clarity over what is to remain reserved—I am talking about the digital service itself but not the powers that have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

Amendments 99 and 100 are again minor and technical. Their purpose is to reflect the changes made to the reservation of the IER digital service in clause 3 by amendment 92. Amendment 99 ensures that subsection (4) of new section 12 of the Scotland Act 1998 refers to the amended reservation of the digital service in clause 3—I trust that everybody is taking notes and following closely. Amendment 100 removes the now unnecessary definition of the digital service in clause 4, again as a result of the amended reservation of the digital service in clause 3.

Amendments 102 to 105 are technical amendments that reflect the changes made to the reservation of the IER digital service in clause 3 by amendment 92. Amendment 102 ensures that the regulation-making power of Scottish Ministers in this provision refers to the amended reservation of the digital service in clause 3. Amendment 103 removes the definitions of “the digital service” and “the use of the digital service” from the clause, as they are no longer technically required. Amendment 104 ensures that clause 6 refers to the amended reservation of the digital service, as made by the amendment to clause 3. Finally, amendment 105 removes the definitions of “the digital service” and “elections in Scotland” that are also no longer required as a result of that further amendment.

Let me turn to the other amendments that are part of this wider group. I will start with amendment 42 and the elements of amendments 60 and 61 that relate to clauses 3 and 5 and the continued reservation of certain combinations of polls. The clauses fulfil the Smith commission agreement devolving significant electoral powers to the Scottish Parliament while ensuring that polls for Scottish parliamentary general elections will not be held on the same day as UK parliamentary general elections, European parliamentary general elections or ordinary local government elections in Scotland, which have already been devolved.