Planning and Regeneration

Debate between John Penrose and Lord Foster of Bath

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to have you in the Chair looking after us this afternoon, Mr Dobbin, particularly because the topic of preserving urban views and regenerating high streets is tremendously important to towns and cities up and down the country.

I hope we can all agree that there are two fairly severe challenges facing our built environment, no matter which part of the country we may be talking about. On the one hand, a housing crisis is looming. The Minister’s colleague, the Minister for Housing, has been making the tours of the TV studios and radio airwaves to make the point that we have an incipient housing crisis, caused by years and years of under-building, and that if we are not careful and if we do not do something about the situation relatively quickly we face the prospect of owner-occupation being something that will fairly rapidly become just the preserve of the rich. That will happen unless we start to build significantly more houses. The figure bandied around is that more than 100,000 homes—in fact, several hundred thousand homes—will have to be built every year for several years, in order to catch up with the backlog.

Given the levels of building needed to match current and expected demand, the pressure on finding sites and space will be intense. Even if we use all the brownfield sites that are available, it is true that if we do not find other spaces to build on, the pressure on our green fields will inevitably grow. I suspect many people view that prospect with alarm; it is an extremely unpleasant and inconvenient fact. If we can find alternatives, clearly we should use them.

In addition to the threat, or challenge, of the housing crisis, our high streets also face two very serious challenges: one of long standing, the other relatively recent. The long-standing challenge is that, for several decades, out-of-town shopping centres have been threatening to suck the life out of our high streets by pulling shoppers away from town centres to out-of-town locations, and in some cases they have actually done so. That has been going on for many years. Back in the 1980s or 1990s, John Gummer, a distant predecessor of the Minister, started to introduce restrictions on planning permissions for out-of-town shopping centres. That process has continued; in fact, as recently as last year the latest set of planning guidelines further sought to restrict permissions.

That is a well-established threat; it has existed for some time. More recently, of course, the advent of online shopping means that many more people are now shopping from home over the web, and as a result a great many retail store chains have concluded that they need fewer shops to cover the entire country. Inevitably, that has reduced demand for shopping locations on Britain’s high streets.

Those two challenges mean that change is inevitably coming to our towns and cities. That should not surprise us. Change is fine; it is okay and it is something that Britain’s built environment has had to face up to over decades, indeed over centuries. In fact, if we look at townscapes and cityscapes—the way that towns and cities look—we see that all of them are the product of successive waves of development, in some cases going back very many years. We are in London. London has been occupied for at least a couple of millennia and the signs of successive waves of development during human occupation of this site are around for us to see, even now.

It is the case in most cities, with—I suspect—the possible exception of one or two places, such as the one that the Minister represents, the city of Bath, which of course is—

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster)]

Extremely beautiful.

[John Penrose]

Bath is indeed extremely beautiful; it is also a very rare example of a single, fairly homogenous and relatively planned style of building. With very few exceptions such as Bath, or more modern examples such as Milton Keynes, most of the rest of Britain’s towns and cities are not planned. The way they look is the result of a set of rather accidental phases and stages of development. As a result, some of those phases and stages of development, which have inevitably happened because towns and cities have had to react to society’s changing needs over decades and centuries, have created a look that in some cases may be beautiful and in some cases may be very, very average indeed. In fact, I suspect that many of us can think of some parts of some towns and cities that everybody would cheerfully see being redeveloped quite rapidly. And there is everything in between.

In some cases, we have lucky accidents of beautiful parts of our towns and cities, and in other cases the unlucky accidents of rather ugly places. We need to face up to the fact not only that change has always been a facet of the development of our built environment but that it will always be so. Our towns and cities need to carry on changing if they are to cope with the changing demands of society. They always have and they always will. Given the twin challenges I have just set out, it is extremely likely that we are due for another bout of change—another rapid stage of evolution in what our towns and cities need to do. Nowhere is that more true than on the high street, as it tries to face up to the challenges that I described.

The question is not whether change is coming—clearly it is—but rather how we react to it; how our built environment reacts to it and how local residents are able to use the buildings that we have inherited from our predecessors and those that we are building and developing to bequeath to our successors in whichever urban environment we live and work.

Consequently, it is crucial to ensure that we keep the best bits of what we have already. As I said, there are plenty of examples of beautiful townscapes and wonderful locations, from London’s Mall through to city-centre locations from Edinburgh right the way down to Cornwall, and back again. We need to ensure that as we allow our towns and cities to change, to develop and to react to the pressures on them, we keep the best pieces and do not casually or accidentally allow them to be destroyed in the process of development.

We already have some mechanisms to do that. For example, we have listed buildings. A very small proportion of this country’s buildings—roughly 4%—are subject to listing orders. That means that if they are of particular historic or architectural importance, they are legally protected from being damaged by future development. Equally, we have conservation areas, which is where I think the Minister and the rest of his Department come in. Those areas are protected by planning laws. Local councils can designate a conservation area, and that allows a measure of protection to ensure that it is properly looked after and a homogenous look is maintained.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Foster]

Before we had our short break, I was referring to the excellent contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes. I look forward to his dusting off that old policy document from the Conservative party and making it available to my Department. We will look at the various proposals for seaside resorts with great interest.

The right hon. Member for Tottenham rightly praised my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare for his work as a former Minister. I pointed out that my hon. Friend also had a remit in response to gambling. One of the things that he was able to do towards the end of his period of office as the Minister with responsibility for gambling was to help ensure that the Government could announce a review of the concerns that the right hon. Member for Tottenham raised in respect of what he called bookmakers. That increasingly seems to be a misnomer as more and more of them seem to do their business from fixed-odds betting terminals, about which the right hon. Gentleman joined with me and hon. Members of all parties in expressing concern. I am delighted that the review that he rightly said is needed is now under way.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West on his excellent work as a member and chairman of the save the pub group. I am delighted that he was full of praise for the work that the Government have done in response to the concerns expressed about tied pubs and so on. I am grateful to him for praising the Government on the national planning policy framework and—notwithstanding the comments made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes—the work that we are doing on the Portas pilots and the town team partners, of which Otley, as he reminded us, is one and is benefiting from that scheme. He also rightly pointed out that not all regulation is bad. I have made that point on several occasions. Those who seek to deregulate merely for the sake of deregulation have missed the point. Although the Government are seeking to remove unnecessary red tape, we are also mindful that some regulations are critically important.

I join my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West in praising areas such as Cambridge that have introduced supplementary planning guidance, among other things, to protect pubs in their immediate neighbourhood. I repeat what I said to him earlier: consultation on some of the matters that he raised closes on 7 March, so any right hon. and hon. Members who wish to contribute to the discussions are welcome to do so.

The hon. Member for City of Durham saved me a lot of effort. For once, even though we are on opposite sides of the Chamber, I have great sympathy with much of what she said in response to the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare in this excellent debate.

My hon. Friend began by reminding us that we face various challenges. He said that on the one hand we need to get more houses built, but on the other hand there are pressures in achieving that without encroaching on the green belt. He also pointed out what happens in our high streets and the dangers that have existed, particularly in relation to out-of-town supermarkets and developments. He rightly praised a former Member of the House, Mr Gummer, for his work. I remind my hon. Friend that we have gone further in the national planning policy framework, which has now established a clear sequential test. Before out-of-town developments can take place, all the various stages of that testing procedure must be gone through.

My hon. Friend said, with great perspicacity, that change is always necessary to meet changing demand. He was not putting his head in the sand. He accepted that change has to take place. It has to take place in the high street in response to, for example, online shopping. My hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes gave the example of a street in Grimsby where the challenge of changing circumstances has not been picked up and has had pretty disastrous consequences.

My hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare clearly accepts that we have to get a balance between conservation, design and urban development. He pressed me in much the same way as he did in his excellent article in The Daily Telegraph on 2 January, when he wrote that

“individual buildings are preserved by listing, but we need a similar set of rules to ensure the best city and townscapes are saved too.”

Like the hon. Member for City of Durham, I must say to my hon. Friend that we already have in place measures that will deliver what he seeks to achieve. Many local councils are already taking innovative planning approaches to safeguarding urban views and are developing strategies to support their high streets. There are many different ways in which that is being done, but it is predominantly through local plans and the supporting evidence that goes alongside them.

Others have adopted sensitive approaches to heritage conservation—I know my hon. Friend cares passionately about that—urban design, designated conservation areas and so on. For example, South Kesteven council has undertaken a townscape character assessment of Grantham, which considers the town’s evolution and character to guide decisions on new development, achieving what I think he seeks. The document assesses the design of the buildings and the relationship between them as a contribution to the distinctiveness of the town. It details key views to landmark buildings and heritage assets, which are issues of material consideration in various development proposals.

The right hon. Member for Tottenham referred to examples in London, where he thinks we have got it about right. The supplementary planning guidance in the London plan sets out protected panoramas, linear views, river prospects and townscape views that contribute to the character of the city. Other parts of the country have adopted a similar approach. The right hon. Gentleman praised my constituency of Bath. Bath and North East Somerset council has already done something along the lines that he seeks. Burnley, Hampshire, Preston and the Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead are other examples.

The hon. Member for City of Durham made a very important point. Powers exist, but perhaps not enough councils are aware of the opportunities to achieve the sort of thing that my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare wants. I will certainly talk to my ministerial colleagues about her suggestion that we should do more to promote the powers that already exist, and perhaps share with councils examples of good practice that could achieve much of what my hon. Friend wants. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that suggestion. We will do what we can to take it forward.

My hon. Friend raised issues to do with high streets. He suggested that we look at the parapet above the shop with its often rather garish colouring, where, very often, we see empty spaces. He will be delighted to know that I recently announced a challenge to the Portas pilot and to the town teams to make proposals for the large sum of money that I have earmarked to bring back into use, for residential purposes, the spaces above shops. I entirely accept that there are difficulties, which he alluded to, including access to the space above shops and security, which is why we have asked the many teams to consider innovative solutions. We are on to the issue; we are providing some money and help from the Department, and we have many people looking for bright ideas. I know that he wants me to go even taller, which I will come to.

[John Penrose]

I may be pre-empting the Minister’s next remark, but I urge him to think a little more radically. I welcome the measures and steps that he describes as having already been taken. In some cases, because buildings were designed for a different purpose 100 or 150 years ago, it is not possible to retrofit them in a way that delivers the additional potential uses as accommodation, offices or whatever. Therefore, the only way to get them to work, even without public money, is to allow enough commercial headroom for entire buildings to be redeveloped.

[Mr Foster]

As my hon. Friend said, he has forestalled me. In the few minutes I have left, I have headroom to refer to that issue. He made it clear that he does not seek new regulation. He talked about the possibilities for townscapes and views. They already exist but they could be promoted further. He suggested that having done that, we might also increase the density of all sorts of developments and go higher above shops, if necessary with demolition.

I assure my hon. Friend that I will discuss his various proposals with the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), who is the Minister with responsibility for planning. However, may I say to my hon. Friend that what he seeks is already possible within existing legislation and the current planning rules? It is up to a local authority that wants the type of development he proposes to ensure that such a possibility exists within its local plan, and individual planning proposals can then be introduced. However although it is possible to do that within current planning rules, I will discuss the issue further with the planning Minister, and we will contact my hon. Friend to arrange more discussions with him.

[John Penrose]

The Minister is being very generous in giving way. I welcome his remarks, but is he indeed correct that such powers exist? We think that some powers to protect urban views may already exist, but are not being properly used, so will he undertake to disseminate that information more widely? Clearly, although the powers exist, they are not being widely used and might benefit from being more thoroughly understood.

[Mr Foster]

I am more than happy to assure my hon. Friend that we will look at the exact legislation with respect to his specific points, and if it is necessary to disseminate that information more widely, we certainly will, just as we will for legislation on streetscapes.

I know that hon. Members wish to get the next debate under way, but may I comment on the Portas pilots? I am grateful for the widespread support for the work done, notwithstanding the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes. Some very exciting proposals are emerging from the Portas pilots and town teams considering various issues. We intend to disseminate examples of good practice as widely as possible to help develop those who are not one of the 300-odd schemes with which we are directly engaged. I am delighted that high streets and town centres can benefit from those very exciting proposals.

I want to comment on my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West, who is now back in the Chamber. In his absence, I praised him for his work on the all-party save the pub group. I absolutely assure him that we are very alert to his concerns. As he knows—he referred to this—the right to bid gives a community the opportunity to register a facility, such as a community pub, as a community asset, which is one way to provide some protection. In my constituency, as he knows from tweets I sent out only the other day, I recently got a pub to look at being listed as a community pub. That is one option, but I entirely accept the issues he raised about whether we need changes to planning use class orders. I assure him that the Government are considering that.

Finally, I am enormously grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare. I know that he feels strongly and passionately about this issue, on which he has even put pen to paper in national newspapers. I think I can assure him that in most areas where he wants developments, opportunities already exist, and that in most places where he wants protections, they already exist. I assure him that we will look at the issues raised in the debate. We will at least help to disseminate the information available more widely, and if changes are needed, we will consider them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Penrose and Lord Foster of Bath

Thursday 9th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

2. What estimate he has made of the number of category B2 gaming machines in operation in the UK.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose)]

The latest version of the Gambling Commission’s six-monthly industry statistics was published in December 2011. It showed that the number of category B2 gaming machines—fixed odds betting terminals, or FOBTs, as they are sometimes known—in operation in Great Britain as at 31 March 2011 was 32,007.

[Mr Foster]

I am most grateful to the Minister for that answer. The FOBTs he refers to, through which punters can lose £100 a spin or £18,000 a year, have been described as the crack cocaine of gambling. As he said, numbers are exploding: some 32,000 such machines are in easily accessed high street betting shops, yet the evidence shows that they are causing real damage to individuals and families, including some of the poorest people in our communities. Does the Minister therefore not agree that a responsible Government should be taking urgent action to address this problem, including looking at the recommendations in early-day motion 2634, such as cutting the stakes and prize levels of these machines so that they are more akin to those in other adult centres?

[John Penrose]

I completely share my right hon. Friend’s concern about gambling addiction. Although it affects only a small number of people, it can ruin lives and is a very serious issue. Many colleagues on both sides of the House have raised it, as did Mary Portas in her recent review of the health of high streets throughout the country. However, my right hon. Friend will agree that we have to ensure that any policy or regulatory changes that might be considered are based not just on concern and anecdote, but on firm evidence and factual foundation. Therefore, my invitation to him and any other colleagues concerned about this issue—on either side of the House—is that if they can bring me hard evidence and facts, I will of course consider them extremely carefully.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Penrose and Lord Foster of Bath

Thursday 15th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

May I thank the ministerial team and the Opposition parties for their support for my Live Music Bill, which passed through its entire Committee stage yesterday? There are, however, fears among some residents associations that it will reduce protections against noise and antisocial behaviour. Will the Minister confirm that that is not the case and that, although we wish to see an explosion of live music in small venues, we want to continue to protect residents who live close to pubs and clubs?

[John Penrose]

May I join everybody in the House in congratulating my right hon. Friend and, indeed, his compatriot Lord Clement-Jones at the other end of the corridor, who have been instrumental in guiding the Bill through both Houses so far? I can reassure him, as he said, that protections for local residents and local residents groups will be maintained as they are.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Penrose and Lord Foster of Bath

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

As currently drafted, the Localism Bill would allow local development plans to circumvent the existing rules on listed buildings. Does the Minister agree that this could play havoc with our current built heritage? What discussions is he having with the Department for Communities and Local Government to avoid that problem?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose)]

I am glad to reassure my hon. Friend that at no stage has any DCLG Minister come to me and said that they wish to drive a coach and horses through the listed buildings regulations; I am sure that he was not implying that anyway. I am happy to reassure him that, as we speak, officials from DCMS are in close consultation on this very issue with the authors of the Localism Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Penrose and Lord Foster of Bath

Monday 21st June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

2. What recent representations he has received on arrangements for the performance of live music in small venues.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose)]

I welcome this question from my honourable colleague. He has been a long-term campaigner on this issue, and he makes an important point. He will know, because we have had discussions on the issue, that we are committed to moving as fast and as positively as we can towards better arrangements for the performance of live music in small venues. I hope to be able to make an announcement on that in due course. Specifically in answer to his question, we have received one representation from a Member of the House of Lords and one from a member of the public.

[Mr Foster]

I congratulate the Minister and all the Front-Bench team on their appointments. Let me say how delighted I am that the Minister has confirmed that this Government are pressing ahead to improve the position for live music performance in this country, and particularly in small venues. However, I hope that he will agree, first, that no further consultation is necessary, and secondly, that we need to make the case more effectively for more reliable and trusted data on the current position of live music in this country.

[John Penrose]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about the concerns about the quality of the data. I am told that the statistics produced by the Department are all compliant with Office for National Statistics guidelines, but there is a great deal of concern among live music performers in particular that although the data might be technically accurate, they do not represent the whole truth. However, if he or the industry has some specific examples of how they can be improved, I would be delighted to hear them.