Point of Order

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I provided your office with a copy of the minutes of the petitions committee of the European Parliament of 11 November—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is a remarkable denizen of this House and it was very good of him to give me advance notice of what he wanted to cover, and I am genuinely sorry to interrupt him. He has indeed, as he rightly says, given some advance indication of the question to which he seeks an answer from the Chair. However, the issue he raises, and which he did, as I say, courteously treat of with my officials in advance, is in my view more properly raised not as a point of order in the Chamber, but in discussion between the hon. Member and me and my advisers, since raising the matter orally in the Chamber may itself, no doubt inadvertently, breach the rules of the House. I should therefore be grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s forbearance, and let me say for the avoidance of doubt that to welcome the hon. Gentleman to Speaker’s House for a meeting around the table with my advisers over a cup of tea will be an enjoyable experience for me, and I hope also for the hon. Gentleman, and I look forward to him speedily getting in touch with my office to arrange that agreeable encounter. Perhaps we can leave the matter there for today?

[John Hemming]

In terms of discussing this at the Procedure Committee, the fact that I cannot even raise the point of order is in itself a useful piece of information for it to consider.

[Mr Speaker]

Well, it has to be said that the hon. Gentleman is a distinguished member of that Committee and I feel sure he will advise it of his views, as he has always done—with alacrity—in this House. We look forward to further and better particulars in due course, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his understanding.

Human Fertilisation and Embryology

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[John Hemming]

I will not take lots of interventions because it would damage the debate. They remain inherited, and, in essence, we face the same difficulty. My concern is a legalistic one, which is that we are moving away from a society in which we value people as people to one where we start looking at people in terms of what categories they fall into and things such as that. To that extent, I cannot back the motion today, particularly as it is being pushed through in such a rush.

[Mr Speaker]

If the hon. Gentleman is finished, I call Mr Robert Flello.

Points of Order

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman is a wily operator if ever there was one. I think he knows that his question was directed not at me but at the Secretary of State for Defence and at tomorrow’s Official Report. In that respect, he has achieved his objective. He has made his point and it will be recorded; it has also been heard by those on the Treasury Bench.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Eugene Lukjanenko-Soifertis is a concert pianist. I have here a copy of the draft agenda of the European Parliament committee on petitions, dated 11 November. At item 15, Mr Lukjanenko-Soifertis petitioned the committee. I have attempted to table an early-day motion referring to what happened at that petitions committee—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that I cannot know what he is about to say, but I should like to establish this point. I hope that he is not seeking to use the device of a point of order to say what he would have said if he had gone ahead in the way that I was advised he should not do—[Interruption.] He has a smile on his face, and this is occasioning gentle and wry amusement in the House. I understand that, but it would be quite disorderly and improper if he were to use a point of order in that way. I am sure that he is not going to try to do that—is he?

[John Hemming]

No. I do not think that I have been told not to refer to the fact that Mr Lukjanenko-Soifertis is a concert pianist or to the agenda. I have, however, been told not to refer to what happened at the European Parliament’s petitions committee, despite the fact that it is available on the internet and can be looked at very easily. I am not allowed to refer to what happened in a motion. I would therefore like to ask my first question of the Speaker. If I were to come here with a copy of the minutes of that petitions committee meeting, would it be in order for me to refer to their contents? Secondly, given that when I tried to table a petition referring to the same issue, I was told that it could not be tabled for the same reason of sub judice, will the Speaker please explain why we, uniquely as a jurisdiction, have a rule of sub judice in respect of petitions and tell me what is happening about that?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I say in the most positive of spirits that his words are his choice and my words, by way of response, must be mine. He sought a waiver of the sub judice resolution from me in connection with a proposed early-day motion about a matter before the petitions committee of the European Parliament. Of course I took advice, as colleagues will appreciate, but I was not persuaded of the case for such a waiver. Subsequently, it was brought to my attention that another Member, the hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), had sought to present a public petition on behalf of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) that essentially repeated the terms of his proposed early-day motion. I concluded that the presentation of a petition was not an appropriate way to circumvent the sub judice rule, and was not what the House intended to happen when it made its resolution concerning sub judice.

The right to petition this House is an ancient one. It can be an important last resort after all other efforts to address a grievance have been exhausted, but if a case to which a petition relates is active in the courts, all other avenues have not been exhausted. A petition must seek a remedy that it is within the power of the House to grant, and it is hard to see how that requirement could be satisfied when the matter in question is actively before the courts. In these circumstances, I have taken the view that a petition should not be received. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley might wish to take this matter up with the Procedure Committee, of which he is a distinguished ornament—[Laughter.] That is a compliment to the hon. Gentleman. The application of the sub judice rule to public petitions seems to me to be an appropriate matter for that Committee to consider. When people raise points of order, they want a reply and, preferably, some advice from the Chair. In the best possible spirit, I am advising the hon. Gentleman on a constructive way forward under the auspices of that Committee, which is chaired with distinction by the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker). I hope that if the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley wants a resolution to the matter, he will follow that course.

[John Hemming]

I thank the Speaker for his advice. In fact, the matter is to be discussed in the Procedure Committee later today, which is why I wished to raise this point of order to clarify the issue specifically in respect of petitions before that meeting took place.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman will have his own rationale for wanting to advertise the matter here first, and I make no complaint about that, but I hope he will accept that we have to leave it there for today.

Royal Assent

Points of Order

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Thursday 31st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Departments of State have varied records as to the quality and timeliness of answering questions. The Department of Health is very good, but the Department for Education has been particularly bad—so bad, in fact, that an evidence session with a Minister of State in December at the Procedure Committee, and an evidence session with the Secretary of State last week, considered why that Department was so woefully bad. Last week at the Procedure Committee there was a list of 36 questions that had been asked in 2012 to which answers had not yet been given. As of yesterday, 31 of those questions remain unanswered. Would it be in order for me to apply for an urgent question to ask the Secretary of State for an explanation of the departmental failure if urgent progress is not made?

[Mr Speaker]

The matter that the hon. Gentleman raises is, I believe, the subject of a current investigation by the Procedure Committee, of which he is himself a distinguished member. I think the House should await the outcome of the Committee’s deliberations before considering the matter on the Floor. The hon. Gentleman has made his point and it will have been heard in the appropriate quarters.

Family Justice (Transparency, Accountability and Cost of Living) Bill

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Friday 26th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Barclay]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point on using energy more efficiently rather than simply producing more of it, but the Liberal Democrats are pushing hard for some of the most costly forms of renewable energy production. Does he support a greater subsidy for better energy usage as opposed to such a large subsidy for production?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I just say to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) that his dilation on these matters so far has been dazzling? We are all seeking to come to terms with the intellectual ferocity that he has deployed. In responding to that intervention, I hope he will not stray too far away from the core of his most interesting Bill.

[John Hemming]

I shall follow your guidance, Mr Speaker. We have strayed quite substantially from the Bill, because it does not propose any subsidies. It merely says that we should, through statute, guidance and regulation, improve efficiency. That does not require Government funding or subsidy; it can be entirely funded through the private sector. There is no debate about subsidy because none is proposed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) could be forgiven for thinking that he was intervening on the person making the speech. I remind the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) that he is intervening on the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay). It should be an intervention, not a mini-speech. Has he just about concluded?

[John Hemming]

indicated assent.

[Mr Speaker]

We are grateful.

[Stephen Barclay]

I am most obliged, Mr Speaker, for your very courteous intervention on my behalf, and I am more than willing to take an intervention from such a senior colleague as my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh).

There are two issues that arise from the worthy intention of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley. First, as I understand it, it is the current position of the courts that the welfare of the child comes first, so proposing a new structure to achieve that aim raises the question whether that is not the existing position. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman seems to be suggesting, paradoxically, that we take an expert witness’s advice to the court, but we cannot trust that advice to be in the best interests of the child’s welfare so we need to put it to some other expert witness. Is that really what he is proposing?

Points of Order

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Monday 5th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The Minister for disabled people will have heard, or she will shortly hear, the point he has made. He will know that it is not a rule contained in our Standing Orders but rather a convention—a custom or courtesy—of the House that a Member visiting another Member’s constituency notifies that Member in advance of the intended visit. I remind Members on both sides of the House of the importance of adhering to that courtesy. No matter whether the Member visiting is a Back Bencher, a Minister or an Opposition Front Bencher, this is a courtesy and it should be upheld. In addition, if a Minister has an announcement to make, it should be made first to the House and, depending on the nature and content of the statement, it might well take the form of an oral statement. I must say that breaching the convention is a risky enterprise and doing so in respect of the constituency of Rhondda is especially risky, as it is almost certain that the hon. Gentleman will raise the matter, as he has just proved.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Backbench Business Committee has come under some criticism for not allocating time for a debate on health, and the website www.labour.org.uk/wheresmydebate complains about the absence of such a debate. Would it have been in order for the leader of the Labour party to speak to the Leader of the Opposition and allocate time today to debate the issue of health, or would that have been out of order?

[Mr Speaker]

The leader of the Labour party and the Leader of the Opposition are one and the same person. The hon. Gentleman is a very clever and sophisticated fellow and it might well be that he has raised a very clever and sophisticated point, but if he has it warrants time to be contemplated. It might be too clever and sophisticated for the Speaker, and at any rate I will not deal with it now, but I shall reflect on the hon. Gentleman’s points, as I invariably do, and we will see where we get.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I want to hear the questions and the answers. Members are a little overexcited and they need to calm down just a tad. A good example of such calm will now, I am sure, be provided by Mr John Hemming.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

Under Labour, local democratic accountability in the NHS was reduced by the abolition, without consultation, of the community health councils. The letter refers to the creation of the health and wellbeing boards, which will increase local democratic accountability for the health service. Will the Secretary of State explain how that will ensure that local services in the health service better fit local health needs?

Points of Order

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Monday 14th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. On his first question about the action being unlawful, I will not respond, as it is not the job of the Speaker to rule on such matters. On his second point on the issue of contempt, this is in effect a complaint relating to privilege, which cannot be raised first on the Floor of the House. He should write to me if he wishes to pursue the matter. On the question of any further scrutiny, that is very much dependent on proceedings in the Lords, on which the Public Bill Office can advise. I think that I shall leave the matter there for today.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. The Procedure Committee is very willing to consider references to it of questions that have not been answered. Perhaps hon. Members will wish to know that no such references have been made recently and that we are looking forward to receiving them.

[Mr Speaker]

As ever, the hon. Gentleman has proved to be most helpful. His enthusiasm for consideration of these matters is widely known in all parts of the House.



EDUCATION BILL (PROGRAMME) (No. 2)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),



That the following provisions shall apply to the Education Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 8 February 2011 (Education Bill (Programme)):

Consideration of Lords Amendments

1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 10.00 pm at this day’s sitting.

Subsequent stages

2. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question being put.

3. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.—(Mr Gibb.)

Question agreed to.

Injunctions

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Monday 23rd May 2011 Commons Chamber

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

With about 75,000 people having named Ryan Giggs on Twitter, it is obviously impracticable to imprison them all, and with reports that Giles Coren also faces imprisonment—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Let me just say to the hon. Gentleman—although I know that he has already done it—that occasions such as this are for raising the issues of principle involved, not for seeking to flout orders for whatever purpose. If the hon. Gentleman wants to finish his question in an orderly way, he may do so.

[John Hemming]

The question is, what is the Government’s view on the enforceability of a law that clearly does not have public consent?

Points of Order

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Vicky Haigh, a horse trainer and former jockey, was the subject of an attempt by Doncaster council to imprison her for speaking at a meeting in Parliament. There was discussion earlier today as to whether that case was sub judice. An application was made to the court, a copy of which I have provided to your office. Additionally, I have provided to your office a copy of the court order in which it was deemed that she would not be jailed. I assume, therefore, that the case is not sub judice, in accordance with sub-paragraph (b)(ii) of the relevant resolution:

“Any application made in or for the purposes of any civil proceedings shall be treated as a distinct proceeding.”

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his attempted point of order and for notice that he was to raise the matter this afternoon. I do not intend to have a discussion on the Floor of the House, notwithstanding what he said about documents that have been deposited, on whether a particular case is or is not sub judice. One of my duties is to uphold the resolution of the House with respect to sub judice issues. As far as this particular matter is concerned, I am perfectly prepared to discuss it privately with the hon. Gentleman. I will not take any further points of order on this matter today, and I feel sure that he will take his cue from the clear response that I have given.

[John Hemming]

On a separate point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman may have a separate point of order, but it is a bit greedy to have two in one go. We will have someone else first so that he can save his vocal cords and we will revert to him in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

What I would say to the right hon. Gentleman is as follows. First, Ministers are responsible for the content, including the accuracy, of the answers that they give and the statements that they make to the House. Secondly, I hope he will understand when I say that I cannot get involved in the question of the quality of an answer. Thirdly, I think it would be well beyond the limited powers and capacities of the Chair to join an almost theological debate about what constitutes stability, in respect of either the health service or any other feature of our national life. However, the shadow Health Secretary has put his point on the record.

[John Hemming]

On a second point of order, Mr Speaker, of which I also gave notice, I wish to make another point about sub judice. There is a tendency for people to issue injunctions on the basis of a claim that they intend to issue proceedings, but then not actually issue those proceedings. One such case is AMM, in which no proceedings have been issued. One would therefore presume that such a case never becomes sub judice.

[Mr Speaker]

The ingenuity of the hon. Gentleman is almost boundless, and that fact will not have gone unnoticed in any part of the House. However, the initial observations that he made demonstrate to me that the second issue that he has raised is also one for consideration at our private meeting, which I feel sure he is eagerly awaiting.

Business of the House (Thursday)

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

As somebody who is not doing a U-turn, I ask the hon. Gentleman: if you are spending more time tonight debating the issue of how long tomorrow’s debate will be than that debate will take, why, at 7 o’clock tonight, did you vote not to discuss this at all?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I have not done any of the things of which I am accused.

Information for Backbenchers on Statements

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker; I make that about 10 minutes.

What is interesting about the current situation is that if the Procedure Committee comes up with proposals for change, it will not have to beg the Government for time to have them debated but can simply pass them to the Backbench Business Committee so that it can table a substantive resolution to change the rules of Parliament. That system, which most representative bodies have, is a key change.

The Leader of the House was entirely right not to recreate the Modernisation Committee, not least because it was the wrong process: Parliament, not the Government, should run Parliament. I was on the Modernisation Committee. I like these procedural matters, and I happen to be on both the Backbench Business Committee and the Procedure Committee, not because I am a glutton for punishment so much as because procedure is the key way of enabling us to do things.

My memory may not be entirely right, but I believe that the last time the Modernisation Committee met was some time in late 2008. The Opposition’s view was that at that point Parliament was modern, so there was no reason for the Committee to continue meeting, and it ceased some time before the general election. However, we are now in a situation in which Parliament can assert itself to take power on behalf of the electorate. That is the key change. We are the voice of the people, and it is our job to do that.

Other changes will come through. One matter that the Procedure Committee considered in the previous Parliament was what we do when the Government fail to answer a written parliamentary question. Under the previous system we could either ask it again, which did not generally work very well, or put in a freedom of information request. That was an absurd situation, and the Procedure Committee decided to establish a process whereby hon. Members could go to that Committee and say, “This question has been inadequately answered.” I hope that we will consider that matter as the second item on the agenda, because I agree with the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) that Parliament has to reassert itself.

I would go a bit further than that. We need to recognise that according to article 13 of the basic constitutional law of the UK, the Bill of Rights, Parliament is here to redress all grievances. That means that we are here to speak on behalf of our citizens wherever problems exist, whether they be in this country or around the world, in the judicial system or in the Executive. Over time we might move more towards the separation of powers, or we might simply stay as we are, but it is crucial for Parliament to assert itself as the voice of the people, and in doing so, bring Parliament closer to the people.

That requires relatively nuisance-like people such as me to do things that are perhaps not exactly what our party would like us to do—especially with mine in a coalition Government—and to raise embarrassing matters. That actually strengthens the whole process of government, because when we ask difficult questions it may mean that civil servants are empowered to say to the Government, “Well, actually, this isn’t necessarily something that you should do. Perhaps if you do it slightly differently, that will be a better way of running the country.”

I have often described the way in which we run this country as like driving a car and trying to avoid a car crash by looking in the rear view mirror at the car crash that happened two years ago. Many times when things go wrong in this country there is complete quiet. Then, after a year, a lot of people make a bit of noise but nothing happens. After a bit longer even more people make a noise and there is an inquiry, which finds that there was a real disaster some years before. Parliament needs to get more upstream in that process, so that problems are raised in Parliament as they arise and the Government answer, giving the truth about what is happening.

One thing that shocked me when I came to the House from Birmingham city council was how out of date the information to which parliamentarians had access was. Even as an opposition member of the city council I was used to knowing—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. It is always a pleasure to listen to the hon. Gentleman, but I must ask him to focus on the terms of the motion, specifically the question of information on Government statements and ministerial accountability to the House for statements made.

[John Hemming]

Thank you, Mr Speaker

This is about questions and information. The reality is that we are now moving towards improving how the House holds the Government to account. Like the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire, I should avoid going into too many details on the possibilities, because I still hope to be on the Procedure Committee—if it is ever set up. If the Opposition are interested in matters of procedure and if they cannot find Labour Members to sit on that Committee, why cannot the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who is a musician, replace another musician and former Labour Member who was defeated at the election? We need to constitute the Procedure Committee.

Use of the Chamber (United Kingdom Youth Parliament)

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; his point of order helpfully confirms the factual position. In the event that there were a closure motion, it would, as with all closure motions, as he perceptively interprets, be subject to an immediate vote. In the event that the decision on the substantive motion is a matter of dispute when the voices are collected, a deferred Division will be held tomorrow. The hon. Gentleman therefore, as usual, has an exquisite understanding of procedure. That fact is now known not only to me but to all Members of the House here present.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Would I be right in assuming that if insufficient Members voted on the closure motion, that motion would fall?

[Mr Speaker]

There are requisite numbers for these matters, but I tend to take the view of the late Lord Whitelaw that it is advisable to cross a bridge only when one comes to it. Rather than speculate on the hypothetical, we will address that matter when we get there. The hon. Gentleman need not allow his brow to furrow or make himself anxious. He is too big a man for that.

Points of Order

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Monday 5th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I have been very explicit about the parts of the handling of this matter that I regard as unsatisfactory. What we cannot do—or it would not, in my judgment, be a proper use of the time of the House later in the week for us to do it—is rerun the statement.

The hon. Gentleman is a man of great ingenuity and indefatigability, and I feel sure that he will find ways in which to highlight his concerns—if not tomorrow, later in the week or on other occasions. I feel sure that as soon as he leaves the Chamber, he will be dedicating his grey cells to precisely that pursuit.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I dread producing a few facts to cover the Labour party’s synthetic anger, but when I heard that the list of schools was in the Library, I thought it would be useful to go and get a copy. It does raise a complex point of order. We have had a relatively long session on a statement about an important issue. At what time should documents be put in the Library? We should bear it in mind that as soon as they are in the Library they are in the public domain, and can be handed to the media. These documents went to the Library at 17.52. Should documents go to the Library and be available generally at the start of the statement, or at the end of it? That is an important point of order.

[Mr Speaker]

Let me say first to the hon. Gentleman that his points of order are always important, and that this was no exception. Secondly, let me say to him that I thought I had made this point clear, but if I failed to do, I apologise to the House. My very strong view is that relevant documents should be available on the Table of the House or in the Vote Office, or both, at the start—I repeat, at the start—of a statement, to make it easier for Members to conduct their duty of scrutiny. I hope that that is helpful to the hon. Gentleman and the House.

Points of Order

Debate between John Hemming and John Bercow

Tuesday 29th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, and I understand the very strong feelings—including those of constituents—that will have motivated him to raise it. In response, I would say that the remarks complained of—which I am neither justifying nor condemning—were not made in the House, and that my clear understanding is that the Secretary of State has apologised for them. He has made a public apology, and the question of whether he seeks to make an apology or any other comment on the matter in the House is a matter for him. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) for raising the matter, and I hope that he feels that I have given him at least an informative response.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

On an earlier point of order, Mr Speaker. In the previous Parliament, the Procedure Select Committee decided to establish a process whereby hon. Members could approach the Committee if they were unhappy with the nature of the answers that they received to written questions. I understand that, in this Parliament, we will continue to offer such an opportunity for people to put their complaints to the Committee, once it has been created.

[Mr Speaker]

That is a useful contribution to the continuation of point of order exchanges.