Defence: 2.5% GDP Spending Commitment

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Monday 11th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

I think the shadow Secretary of State will agree that one of the necessary reforms to our procurement system, especially in an era in which innovation and technological development will be at an increasing premium, is to do much more to support small and innovative firms, perhaps including some in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. We have to reform our procurement system to ensure that happens, and we will.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his answers to all the questions.

I seek an assurance that our spending will focus not only on cyber-security, which is obviously essential, but on recruitment and retention. That spending must take account of the fact that, in April 2024, the Army fell below its target size for the first time since it was set, meaning that all three service branches are currently below target—the Army by 1%, the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines by 5%, and the RAF by 10%. Overall, the UK armed forces were 5,440 personnel, or 1%, below target. We need an assurance on recruitment.

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman sets out some of the details and dimensions of the crisis we face in recruitment and retention. We will start to turn that around, but we will not be able to do so straightaway. We have made a start with proper, fully funded pay awards for our armed forces this year. We are also making a start with new legislation to set up an armed forces commissioner to improve service life. We will take further steps to renew the nation’s contract on the support we can offer to those who serve and the families who support them.

Remembrance and Veterans

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Monday 28th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

For me, one of the great strengths of the House and Parliament is the work of the all-party Select Committees. The right hon. Gentleman’s Committee, during that time, did the House and the wider cause of peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland a service. We will take those points into account. I do not think that anybody could point their finger at the current Northern Ireland Secretary and say that he is not a serious figure, or that he could remotely be accused of performative politics. He will take very seriously his duty to lead the repeal of the legacy Act and find a way forward that takes everybody with us.

Remembrance Sunday is a moment when the nation comes together to honour those who have served, those who have fought and, above all, those who have made the ultimate sacrifice of their life to defend our country, preserve our freedoms and protect our way of life. To all those who serve and have served, on behalf of the country, I offer a profound thank you.

This will be the first time many new Members have the privilege of representing their constituency at remembrance parades, ceremonies and services. I encourage all to play their fullest part, and to go into their schools to join in the lessons and projects that will take place in the run-up to Remembrance Day, because remembrance is not just an opportunity to show our gratitude and pride; it is an opportunity to learn, and to teach the next generation about the service and sacrifice of those who came before. Given that the number of veterans in this country will fall by a third in this decade, it is clear that we need to do more at all levels to reinforce the country’s understanding of and commitment to our armed forces. That has never been more important than in the year in which we mark the 80th anniversary of D-day and many of the major battles that led to the end of the second world war. At the weekend, we marked a decade since the conclusion of UK combat operations in Afghanistan, and during this Remembrance we honour the 457 British service personnel who lost their life, the thousands who were wounded, and their families, who bore such a burden.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his contribution. He is an honest and honourable person. This is on the subject of justice for those who served in uniform. I declare an interest, having served in the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years and in the Royal Artillery for 11 and a half years; that is 14 and a half years in total. My cousin was murdered on 10 December 1971. No one was ever made accountable for his murder. The IRA men who killed him ran across the border to the Republic of Ireland, to sanctuary and safety. No one was made accountable for the murder of four UDR men at Ballydugan on 9 April 1990. It grieves me greatly on their behalf to know that there are people still walking about who have never been made accountable in this world for what they have done. I want to see justice. Does the Minister want to see justice for those people as well?

Ukraine

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

Wherever there are signs of the breaching of UN resolutions and sanctions or of a dangerous escalation in support of Russia, we will act. We have acted before. My hon. Friend is right to point to the growing alliance between Russia and Iran and between Russia and North Korea.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement and, indeed, for his very welcome news. Everybody in this House is incredibly pleased with the Government’s decision today.

As the US election draws closer and uncertainty grows over the level of support that will come from the US after that election, does the Secretary of State agree that Ministers or Members of this House must exercise caution when expressing an opinion on that presidential race? I ask that with great respect. Will he take the opportunity to reaffirm the strong and resilient view of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that we should stand against Russian aggression and support those who need our help through aid, weaponry and diplomacy?

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman is right: the US elections are for the US people. As a UK Government and a UK Parliament, we will deal with whoever the American people choose to elect as their president. I am glad that he welcomes the support that the Government have stepped for up Ukraine. I say to him and to the House—I think the shadow Defence Secretary will recognise this—that it makes the job of the UK Government so much easier when there is such united support in this House for what we must do to support Ukraine for as long as it takes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Monday 14th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

Yes, they will.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Defence Secretary for that response. When I look at Israel’s capacity to defend its citizens and its property with its dome system, it is clear to me that Ukraine needs something similar. Has he had an opportunity to talk to his NATO compatriots, and with the USA in particular, to see whether it is possible to offer Ukraine some of the protection that Israel has?

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman is right that one of the priorities that the Ukrainian President and Defence Minister have constantly stressed to us and other allies is the need for stronger air defence. It is one of the reasons we have now let a contract for short-range air defence missiles: the lightweight multirole missiles. We will produce 650 of those—some of them delivered into Ukraine before the end of the year—and we look to go further in 2025.

Ukraine

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

May I pass on through my hon. Friend our thanks and tribute to any of his constituents who have been involved in the Interflex training programme to date? On the question of pursuing Putin for his war crimes, this is a Government—indeed, this is a country, which is a tribute to the previous Government—that has been willing to help fund the Ukrainian effort to gather the evidence required to prepare potential legal cases that will allow us to bring to justice those leaders in Russia who are responsible. The Ukrainian legal authorities are currently documenting 135,000 reported incidents of alleged war crimes in their country. That is a huge job and they cannot do it without our expertise and our support. Fundamentally, we are a Government that, in opposition, made the commitment to support the setting up of a special tribunal that potentially could try President Putin for the crime of aggression.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank very much the Secretary of State for his statement and his very clear commitment to Ukraine and its people. Everyone in this House supports exactly what he is saying and we thank him for it.

With the breaking news that Ukraine has sent drones to Moscow and central Russia, it is clear that technology is very much at the forefront of this conflict. Will the Secretary of State underline the technical support that the Government have made available to our Ukrainian friends, and say whether we can be of further assistance to bring this war to an end to allow Ukrainian children back into education and Ukrainian families to rebuild their lives?

[John Healey]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who prompts me to say something that I did not give enough emphasis to. Never mind the Government support; the technology that he talks about, which is playing such a decisive role in the hands of the Ukrainians, is often developed and provided by the bright people in our and other countries’ industries. We pay tribute to all those in our British industrial and research companies, who in some cases are working with the Government and in some cases are working under contract to the Ukrainians to provide them with what they need to win this fight, to protect their country’s future and to regain their territorial integrity.

Foreign Affairs and Defence

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Thursday 18th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

The right hon. Member is no longer a member of the Labour party, but I know that he watches what we do and say very closely. He will know that from the outset, we have argued that international humanitarian law must apply in this conflict, and must apply equally to both sides. The answer to his first question is yes: this Government are serious about pursuing an immediate ceasefire, which is why the Foreign Secretary has already been out to Israel to press that case.

On the question of arms sales to Israel, on the Foreign Secretary’s first day in post, through the established system that we use, he commissioned the British Government’s most up-to-date assessment of the degree to which any of our UK arms export licences may be facilitating a serious risk of a breach of international law. He has said clearly that he wants that process to be as swift and transparent as possible, and he is looking hard at exactly that issue. I hope that underlines the simple answer to the right hon. Member’s first question: yes, this Government are serious about a ceasefire, and about the application of international humanitarian law without fear or favour.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

First, I commend the Secretary of State for the role he played in opposition and the role he now plays in government. I think that each of us, on hearing the words of the Secretary of State, will be inspired and feel more confident about road forward. When it comes to the middle east, we are all aware of the influence of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps in Iran, and we are aware of the axis of evil of Iran, North Korea, Russia and China. We are also aware that the IRGC supplies ammunition, finance and personnel to the Houthis in Yemen, Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon and terrorist groups right across Syria. When it comes to addressing that group and what it does across the world, can the Secretary of State today give the House an assurance that it is a priority for this Government to proscribe the IRGC and put it out of action?

[John Healey]

I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we are looking really hard, as he and this House would expect, at the growing threats that Iran poses not just as a state, but through its proxies and its growing alliances with other hostile nations. In many ways, he helps me supply an answer to a question that I have sometimes been asked over the last two days, which is: why have another strategic defence review now? The simple answer is exactly that: the threats are increasing and changing, the nature of warfare is changing and the growing importance of our alliances is becoming clearer. It is for that reason, a year after the last Government’s defence review, that this is imperative. We will pursue this properly and do it at pace, because that is what we need to do both to respond to the growing and changing threats we face and to take the decisions we must take on the capabilities we need to defend the country.

I will wind up now so that other Members from all sides can speak. We were elected on a manifesto promising change. After less than two weeks, I hope that the House and the public see that the work of that change has begun to strengthen the foundations of this new mission-driven Government in making Britain better defended and making Britain democracy’s most reliable ally. The Prime Minister said in his speech in this House yesterday:

“This Government have been elected to deliver nothing less than national renewal…and start the work of rebuilding our country—a determined rebuilding, a patient rebuilding, a calm rebuilding.”—[Official Report, 17 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 54-55.]

That is the task he has set me to lead with my Defence team, but there is so much more to do. I want defence to be central not just to the future security of Britain, but to the country’s success in this new era, bringing greater economic growth and wealth across the UK, reconnecting Britain in the world and forging a new partnership for Britain between Government, business and workers with their trade unions. Together we will make Britain more secure at home and strong abroad.

Ukraine

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Monday 20th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

I mentioned the necessity of helping civilians with humanitarian aid. If we help the civilians, we also encourage the soldiers at the front. Does the right hon. Gentleman believe we need to focus on that, too?

[John Healey]

Yes, the hon. Gentleman makes a sound point.

Thirdly, as many speakers have said, we must boost industrial production. The £2 billion for stockpiles, to re-equip Ukraine and replenish our own forces, was allocated in the spring Budget of 2023. By the end of last year, only a third of that sum had been committed and none of it had been spent. I have now been waiting four months for an update on the progress on committing and spending that £2 billion. It must be fast-tracked and it must be used for stockpiles. It cannot be used to fill gaps in the defence budget, which was the National Audit Office’s concern. We have to reboot our industrial strategy, grow our defence base at home and further collaborate with Ukraine and our allies.

We are proud of the UK’s leadership on Ukraine, and the Ukrainians have told us how important that bipartisan support is to them. The President’s chief of staff told us, “The UK elections are the only ones we are not worried about this year.” On military support for Ukraine and reinforcing NATO allies, the Government have had and will continue to have Labour’s fullest support.

I conclude by returning to where I started. The charity Save Ukraine told us that well over 20,000 Ukrainian children remain stolen and in Russian hands or on Russian territory, but it is determined to bring every single one of them home to their families and home to their country. Across this House, our determination must be just as strong to stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes for it to win.

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel And Veterans) Bill

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 23rd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

I will come on to that matter in a moment, because the Bill does nothing for those troops who have served, as the hon. Gentleman describes, on the frontline overseas. It does nothing to deal with the past cases and the past problems.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Healey]

I will give way one more time, then I will make some progress.

[Jim Shannon]

On that point, the right hon. Gentleman is right about the armed forces covenant and the ability of members of the armed forces community to bring a claim for injury or death after six years. There is some concern about the unique deviation of the Limitation Act 1980 in the Bill that will place members of the armed forces community at a disadvantage compared with civilians. After six years, civilians can register a civil claim, whereas soldiers and Army, Navy and RAF personnel cannot.

[John Healey]

In his typical way, the hon. Member puts his finger on an important point. He understates his argument, as there is more than just some concern; there are, for instance, according to the Royal British Legion, very clear grounds for concern that the provision breaches the armed forces covenant, and I will come on to that point.

Let me deal with getting this problem, which does exist and must be fixed, in a proper perspective. My right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) was absolutely right about how hard it is to get hard, clear information out of the Government. Over recent months, I have had to prise figures out of the MOD. There is a deep resistance to releasing full, open information. The first important figures to give a broad perspective are these: over the past 15 years, there have been 25 cases brought by injured British troops against the MOD for every one case brought by alleged victims against our troops. You can see why, Madam Deputy Speaker, some of the veterans I have talked to about this Bill reckon it is more about protecting the MOD than it is about protecting troops. Britain deployed 140,000 troops to Iraq over six years. The Government cite—the Secretary of State did so today—1,000 civil claims, all against the MOD, not individual service personnel, as evidence for the Bill to end vexatious legal claims. One third of those cases—330—have had the MOD pay compensation. Clearly, they were not vexatious as the MOD rightly insists on only settling cases in which it accepts liability. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State says, “No, we don’t,” but if he looks at the annual report on the cases that the Department publishes and takes, he will see exactly that commitment and clarification. It does not have the power to settle claims where it judges that it would not be found liable in a court. However, one fifth of the cases—217—have been withdrawn or struck out. They may well have been vexatious cases—they were certainly baseless. They may have taken too long, but the system, even as it stands, has dealt with them.

Two fifths of the cases—414—are ongoing, according to the MOD, although that definition could mean that those cases are settled and the MOD has agreed to pay compensation, but there may still be outstanding arguments over legal costs. Those cases may again be long-running, but they are hardly vexatious if they have not been struck out by now.

On the criminal side, the Government cite 3,400 allegations. The Secretary of State referred to the Iraq Historic Allegations Team that looked into them. Despite deep flaws in that investigation, 70% were ruled out as there was no case to answer or no proportionate grounds for a criminal investigation. In other words, those allegations did not warrant a full investigation so got nowhere near the point of decision about prosecution. They would have been wholly unaffected by the Bill if the measure had been in place because, as the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) said, it does not deal with investigations—as it should—but only with prosecutorial decisions and process. By the way, just seven prosecutions have been brought against British soldiers from the remaining allegations and investigations, and all but one have now been dropped.

On Afghanistan and criminal cases, the Operation Northmoor investigation in 2014 examined 675 criminal allegations from 159 people. The investigation closed and no charges have followed. Indeed, the investigation concluded a year before the MOD confirmed in public in June that it had closed.

On judicial review, the Government have cited 1,400 JRs of civil and criminal Iraq and Afghanistan cases as justification for the Bill. I can only find evidence that two judicial reviews are continuing. The court gave the MOD permission to strike many of the others out three years ago. Yet in April, the Minister told me in answer to a written parliamentary question that the MOD had still only notified fewer than half—630—of the court’s decision not to take the investigations further.

To put the matter in perspective, certainly some vexatious claims have been lodged and the current system has taken too long to weed them out, but the bigger, more serious, more consistent problems lie in the system of investigations, which lacks speed, soundness, openness and a duty of care to alleged victims and to the forces personnel who may be in the frame. Those are the problems, which occur well before the point of decision about prosecution, which is the point at which the Bill starts to operate. They are what the Bill should and can deal with. Our aim during its passage through Parliament is to help ensure that it does.

To pick up on the point made by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Stuart Anderson), I must confess that when I first looked at the Bill, I thought that it was designed to draw a line under the cases still caught up in the problem of so-called lawfare. The first paragraph of the explanatory notes gives the same misleading impression. It says:

“This Bill aims to provide greater certainty for Service personnel and veterans in relation to vexatious claims and prosecution of historical events, that occurred in the uniquely complex environment of armed conflict overseas.”

But this legislation will have no impact on any past or any continuing cases, and clause 15 on commencement makes that clear, so it offers no hope and no help of faster resolution either for the troops or for the alleged victims, who may still be involved in long-running litigation or in repeat investigations. I want to make sure that no one in this House and, much more importantly, in the armed forces and the veterans community is misled by what they may have heard or may have understood before now.

Similarly, nothing in this Bill applies to Northern Ireland, despite the same commitment in the Conservative manifesto, similar concerns on the Government side about drawing a line for British troops who served in Northern Ireland and the Secretary of State’s letter to all MPs last week in which he confirmed his eagerness

“to ensure also the equivalent protections of our veterans who served in Northern Ireland.”

The Secretary of State’s speech looked back, but we now legislate for the future. The Bill is not a framework fit for the future point when Britain must again commit its forces to armed conflict overseas. The Government have got important parts of the Bill badly wrong, and I want to see Ministers work with all parties in both Houses and with groups beyond Parliament who have expertise to offer on this—from the British Legion to Liberty—to get this legislation right.

There are problems. The Bill is silent on the command responsibility and the role of commanders in some of these cases. There is a problem, I think, with the Attorney General’s consent, as it risks political factors coming into prosecutorial decisions. There is nothing on the disclosure rights, responsibilities and duties of the MOD. Let me summarise our biggest concerns about the Bill.

EU Funding

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

The allocations are made to the United Kingdom, whose Government then have a degree of discretion about the distribution of those funds within the UK. What was at stake in the Court challenge and is at stake in this debate is whether those decisions were fair, whether they were justifiable and whether they were lawful. That is the point at stake and it is where things have changed since the debate I introduced about eight months ago.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned Northern Ireland. Does he accept that Northern Ireland’s fuel costs are the highest in the whole UK, its levels of unemployment exceed those in other parts of the UK and its educational standards do not match those of some areas of the UK, and that allocations of EU moneys are based on the criteria of need and Northern Ireland falls into that category? I would be happy to see Yorkshire getting its true worth, but I would hate to see it happening at the expense of those in Northern Ireland.

[John Healey]

I understand that. Northern Ireland, South Yorkshire and Merseyside all face similar problems, and under this funding period arrangement they have all been designated as transition regions. I must say to the hon. Gentleman that the GDP—the wealth, product and income—in Northern Ireland is in fact higher than it is in South Yorkshire and in Merseyside, yet the decisions the Government have taken mean that Northern Ireland will be protected, with its drop in funding for these seven years compared with the previous seven years being limited to just 5%, whereas we face a funding cut of more than 50%. I think he would agree that that simply is not fair.

EU Funding (Rotherham and Barnsley)

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

The Minister will have a chance to respond in full, but he is perfectly aware—I have had meetings with him and written to him on this point—that the comparison I make is regarding the special protection put in place for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland has a GDP higher than that of South Yorkshire, Northern Ireland has a GDP higher than that of South Yorkshire and Wales has a GDP roughly on the same level. That is not fair, and it does not make good policy sense.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for bringing this very important issue before the House for consideration. Obviously, as an MP for Northern Ireland, I am concerned that Northern Ireland receives its full share. Unemployment is higher, youth unemployment is higher and job opportunities are even scarcer than in other parts of the United Kingdom. Does the right hon. Gentleman want to see the same opportunity given to Rotherham and Barnsley as has been given to Northern Ireland?

[John Healey]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman sums up my full argument in a nutshell, and I am grateful to him for that.

0845 Phone Lines (DWP)

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)]

Some of the most important matters that MPs discuss in Parliament start with concerns that are raised with us by constituents, as is the case with this debate. People are routinely placed on hold for half an hour when calling the local jobcentre, or they are charged £40 in a single month for the cost of calls to Departments, when they simply try to report a change in circumstances. Such bills are run up because, as I established through freedom of information requests and parliamentary answers, the Department for Work and Pensions has 148 separate phone lines all using 0845 numbers that can cost up to 10p per minute from a landline and 41p per minute from mobile phones.

People who need to call those numbers are usually on a fixed, low income. They are elderly, vulnerable or unwell, and they are being charged rip-off rates to sort out problems or simply get information about sickness and disability benefits, carers support, jobs, pensions, child support, and even crisis loans.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that the best way would be not to charge at all for such phone lines, which are used by the elderly, single parents, those on low incomes and those in poverty?

[John Healey]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s support for my argument. He is right that thousands of people in his constituency, in mine and in the Minister’s will be affected by those premium-rate lines and the rip-off call charges that people can suffer. The cost of the call takes a big chunk out of already stretched budgets. That can put people off making calls to get the help they need.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

Sadly, Ruth Murphy’s experience is more and more common. By the end of last year, the number of people having to wait more than 18 weeks to get into hospital for the operation they needed was up 13% since the previous year.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Like many in the House, the right hon. Gentleman will have received a lot of correspondence from professional bodies, such as the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Midwives, the Royal College of Nursing, the Chartered Society of Physiotherapy and many, many others, and they all say that these changes will lead to an unsafe foundation for the NHS. Does he feel that they all want change, but the right change, and the right change is not what will be delivered by the Government here?

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman is right. One of the great tragedies here is that the Government have squandered the good will and confidence of NHS staff that is necessary to make the changes to the NHS that it must make. This health Bill will make making those changes more difficult, not easier.

The Government could have built on the golden legacy and the great improvements that patients saw under 13 years of Labour investment and reform: hundreds of new hospitals and health centres; thousands more doctors, nurses and specialist staff; and millions of patients with the shortest ever waits for tests and treatments. Instead, we have a Tory-led Government, backed by its Lib Dem coalition partners, who have brought in the chaos of the biggest reorganisation in NHS history; wasted billions of pounds on new bureaucracy; and betrayed our NHS with a health Bill that will, in the long run, break up the NHS as a national health service and set it up as a full-blown market ruled, in time—for the first time—by the full force of competition law.

Everything about this NHS reorganisation has been rushed and reckless. This has been a master class in misjudged and mishandled reform—implementing before legislating, and legislating before being forced to call a pause to listen and consult on the plans already in hand. This health Bill was introduced last January. What was a very bad Bill is still a bad Bill. Make no mistake: this legislation will leave the NHS facing more complex bureaucracy and more confusion about who decides what and who accounts for what, and mired in more cuts and wasted costs for years to come.

Risk has been at the heart of the concern about these changes from the outset. There has been a lack of confidence and a lack of evidence, yet the Government are ready to manage the risks of introducing the biggest ever reorganisation in NHS history at the same time as the biggest financial squeeze since the 1950s. These risks were the reason for the growing alarm among the public, professionals and Parliament in the autumn of 2010, when I made my freedom of information request for the release of the transition risk register.

Last Friday the courts dismissed the Government’s efforts to keep secret the risks of their NHS reforms. Apocalyptic arguments were made in court, in defence of the Government, about how releasing the register would lead to the collapse of the Government’s system for managing risk. That did not happen when the Labour Government were forced to release the risk register for the third runway at Heathrow. Nor will it lead to the routine disclosure of Government risk registers, because the tribunal’s decision, like the Information Commissioner’s decision before it—both saw the transition risk register—was based on my argument that the scale and speed of these changes was unprecedented, and therefore that the public interest in their being disclosed was exceptional.

The Government have dragged out their refusal to release this information for 15 months. That is wrong. They have now lost in law twice. This is not a political argument but a legal and constitutional argument. It is about the public’s right to know the risk that the Government are running with our NHS, and about Parliament’s right to know, as we are asked to legislate for these changes.

Health and Social Care Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

Debate between John Healey and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

I give way for the last time to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon).

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Committee had 28 meetings, 100 Divisions and hour upon hour of debate. That has been reflected in public opinion. The electorate who put us all in the House to represent their views are clear about what they want: a full debate in Committee, not a short-term Committee. They want it to sit until 18 October, not until 14 July.

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman served on the Public Bill Committee. I hope he will continue to serve when the Bill is recommitted. He is right. The public and NHS patients expect us to do our best to get the legislation right. To do that, we require the detail, we require the time, and we require the whole Bill to be recommitted.

The House cannot do its proper job without an impact assessment. The current assessment says that

“the full benefits of these changes will not be realised unless there is a change to regulation to promote competition”.

The Government now say that this policy will be altered. There will also be greater bureaucracy, longer time scales and more bodies with more complex accountabilities. Both the supposed benefits and the stated costs have changed, yet the Government tell us that the new impact assessment will not be published until the Bill reaches the Lords.

How much will this reorganisation now cost? How much can the Government now claim this will save? What are the risks? Why has the Health Secretary being blocking my freedom of information requests to release the official risk register since November? Why will the Government not welcome and allow full scrutiny of the Bill in view of the significant policy changes they say they are making? Why are they preventing this elected House from doing its proper job of fully scrutinising the legislation?

If the programme motion is passed, more will need to be done on Report in this House and during the Bill’s passage through the other place. We will continue to oppose this reckless and needless NHS reorganisation, lead the detailed scrutiny this legislation requires and speak up as patients start to see their NHS services suffer again under the Tories. We will oppose the motion.