Home Affairs

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 10th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

The hon. Gentleman raises a point that the pre-legislative scrutiny Committee looked at. It was keen that we should change our approach to the whole question of offences in the Bill by having a wider offence of exploitation. We have decided not to go down that route because we believe that such a broad and wide-ranging offence could make it more difficult for law enforcement agencies and that it could, through the law of unintended consequences, encompass behaviour that is otherwise entirely innocent. We have changed some of the definitions in the offences in order to make it absolutely clear that where they involve a child, which might make it harder to identify when coercion is taking place, there is specific reference to that in the overall offences of slavery, servitude and labour exploitation.

Taken together, the Modern Slavery Bill and these measures provide a comprehensive programme of action that will help to make a real difference to the lives of some of the most vulnerable people in our society.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Has the Home Secretary had any discussions with the devolved Assemblies, particularly the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly, which have both brought in anti-trafficking legislation that relates specifically to Scotland and Northern Ireland respectively, as I understand that that legislation takes care of the point about specific child exploitation and guardianship?

[Mrs May]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We have had considerable discussions with the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly. We have also had discussions with the Welsh Assembly, because most of the Bill’s provisions cover England and Wales. We are still in discussions with the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. The Scottish Government made it clear a few months ago that they wanted to introduce their own legislation in this area. As he says, there are also legislative proposals in the Northern Ireland Assembly. We are talking about how we can ensure that they all mesh together so that we have a comprehensive approach. As a result of further discussions, it is possible that I might wish to bring forward amendments relating to Scotland and Northern Ireland, but detailed discussions are still ongoing on what legislative arrangements will work best.

Moving on from the Modern Slavery Bill—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs May]

The report by Baroness Corston was indeed significant in its findings on the treatment of women and girls, particularly in the criminal justice system in relation to custodial sentences. I have had a number of discussions with Baroness Corston on this matter in the past, especially when I held the women’s brief, when I was considering it particularly. I have also had discussions with the prisons Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright). I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Ministry of Justice is aware that the matter needs to be considered. I am sure that it will be looking at Baroness Corston’s report—although it was done a few years ago, of course—to see what she proposed.

We must ensure that modern courts run efficiently and effectively without undue costs to the taxpayer. We are therefore introducing criminal court charges to ensure that criminals contribute to the cost of their cases being heard through the courts system. It is only right that criminals who give rise to those costs in the first place should carry some of the burden placed on the taxpayer. We will also introduce reforms to judicial review to ensure that it is used for the right reasons and not merely to cause unnecessary delays or to court publicity. Judicial review is vital in holding authorities and others to account, but this must be balanced to avoid costly and time-wasting applications and abuse of the system.

The Modern Slavery Bill will ensure that law enforcement and the judiciary have effective powers available to put slave drivers and traffickers behind bars, where they belong.

[Jim Shannon]

Can the Secretary of State confirm that the Government will introduce a non-criminalisation and detention clause, so that children who are prosecuted for crimes that they were compelled to carry out by their traffickers have some flexibility in the system to ensure that they are not penalised for that?

[Mrs May]

We will absolutely do that. The Bill includes a statutory defence that an individual who has been coerced into committing a crime will be able to rely on, except for certain very serious crimes that will be excluded, where, however, the Crown Prosecution Service guidance will still require that prosecutors consider the circumstances of the individual when the crime was committed.

We are determined to disrupt all those who engage, support and profit from all forms of organised crime. Organised crime costs the UK at least £24 billion a year. The financial sector spends about £10 billion a year on protecting itself from serious and organised crime, and the cost to the UK from organised fraud is thought to be around £9 billion. The impacts of organised crime reach deep into our communities, shattering lives, inflicting violence, corroding society, damaging businesses, stealing people’s money, robbing people of their security and causing untold harm in the sexual exploitation of children. To deal with this threat, the Government are taking comprehensive, wide-ranging action. The powerful new crime-fighting body, the National Crime Agency, has been launched to ensure the effective and relentless pursuit and disruption of serious and organised criminality. On the same day as it was launched, we published our serious and organised crime strategy to drive our collective and relentless response. We have legislated to break down barriers to information sharing between law enforcement agencies and toughen up penalties for those trading in illegal firearms.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

First, it is a pleasure to contribute so early on to today’s debate. One of my favourite events at Westminster is without doubt the opening of Parliament and the Queen’s Speech. Many of my constituents tell me the same thing. There are some things in this world that no one can do as well as we British can. When I say that, I very much have in mind the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It reinforces what a privilege it is to be a Member of this House.

I welcome the proposals put forward by Her Majesty’s Government, and I anticipate their execution in the coming year. While many positive steps have been taken to improve the situation of the hard-working people of this country, I cannot help but point out where some policies are conspicuously absent or lacking punch. I will pose some questions in my contribution.

Reports from some medical analysts have shown that the health service faces a bill of an extra £1 billion every year to treat immigrants and asylum seekers. Analysis by Migration Watch UK has found that the cost to the NHS of treating new arrivals with AIDS alone threatens to amount to some £900 million a year. What do the Government intend to do to cut this exorbitant drain on taxpayers’ money by those who are not entitled to free health care and should be paying into the system? What proposals do the Government have to put a halt to the increasing trend of health tourism? Perhaps the Minister could outline in his reply what discussions have been held with his counterparts in the Department of Health to ascertain how the outstanding bills can be paid.

The Chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners, Dr Clare Gerada, has expressed similar concerns about the Health Secretary’s initiative, saying doctors

“must not be the Border Agency”,

and she is right. The Border Agency must be the Border Agency, and the health service must be the health service. The question she poses is how the policy can be enforced. Perhaps the Government will give us some indication of that. What measures, for instance, do the Government have in mind not just to limit health tourism but to retrieve the money spent by the NHS on immigrants not entitled to our free medical care, while not placing an extra burden on our hard-working health workers? Have the Government considered stricter visa applications for those with pre-existing medical conditions, or the reintroduction of embarkation checks to pick up patients leaving with a debt to the NHS? Those are just two steps that could have been taken to address the problem. We must not, of course, create an atmosphere detrimental to our openness to foreign business or hard-working legal immigrants, but we cannot allow the abuse of the system to continue.

Let me provide an example from Northern Ireland, whose Health Minister Edwin Poots has done a fantastic job in alerting the Government to the problems of health tourism in our Province. His findings, which have been reported on “ConservativeHome”, show that up to 80,000 more people could be registered to use the NHS in Northern Ireland than actually live in the Province. Is that possible? If those statistics are true for Northern Ireland—and they are—we clearly have a much greater problem when it comes to the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What steps will the Government take to address this issue? In Northern Ireland alone, this has the potential to cost the NHS some £250 million.

What do the Government intend to do to prevent citizens from the Republic of Ireland, for instance, travelling to the north of Ireland to use the NHS for free? Are rules and regulations in place? Can this be stopped? Has the Home Office reconsidered the border issue with the Republic, which has numerous facets—not simply health tourism, but education and smuggling?

The Chairman of the Committee for Education in Stormont, Mr Mervyn Storey, has drawn attention to the issue of those who take advantage of the education system without making any contribution to it through their tax or employment. He has expressed his concern about how much this education and health provision to immigrants is costing Northern Ireland.

Nor is it only in Northern Ireland that the education system is being exploited by poorly regulated immigration. Education is one of the most important public services provided by the Government, and it costs the UK over £88 billion a year. Not only are illegal immigrants taking advantage of our primary and secondary education, but Migration Watch UK has highlighted how thousands of foreign students are not leaving once their education visas for university expire. In her first major speech on immigration, the Home Secretary committed herself to restoring faith in the immigration system, but—as some Members have already said, and as others will probably say later—the level of net migration remains unacceptably high. According to MigrationWatch UK, £5 billion was spent on the education of immigrants in 2009. What plans have the Government to prevent immigrants from coming to our country to avail themselves of our world-leading education system and then leaving?

An even more worrying statistic comes from the National Audit Office, which has found that 50,000 bogus students came to the United Kingdom in 2012. By “bogus students”, I mean immigrants who apply for UK student visas but come here to work rather than to study. While praising the efforts of the Home Office, which has closed 600 bogus colleges, I must ask what further measures are being taken to ensure that immigrants who have no intention of studying cannot abuse our visa system, and to track down further bogus colleges. Students are currently departing at a third of the rate at which they are arriving: for every 100 who come here, 66 stay and 33 return.

I welcome the Government’s pledge to introduce a modern slavery and human trafficking Bill. A similar Bill was introduced in Northern Ireland by Lord Morrow of Clogher Valley, and provides a sterling example of how seriously the issue of human trafficking needs to be taken. I respect what the Home Secretary said earlier about how she intends to deal with it, and we will take an honest approach to any measure that the Government introduce. I believe that if it is anything like our Bill in Northern Ireland, which is very specific, it will go a long way towards addressing these matters.

I particularly welcome the clauses in the Bill that will give better protection to child victims, but I feel that more could be done. I think it imperative to ensure that children are fully protected, and that the Bill should have referred explicitly to all the most common possible forms of child trafficking and exploitation. The EU trafficking directive sets out the issues for us. I intervened on the Secretary of State earlier to ask about the prohibition of child exploitation, which is often not recognised by the judiciary. I think it crucial for the Bill to make it clear that children do not need to be coerced or deceived, or to have violence used against them, to be victims of trafficking as set out in internationally agreed definitions. There are definitions throughout Europe, and indeed throughout the world, which we can use as guidelines.

While the provision of personal advocates for trafficked children is welcome, I feel that the Government could do more to protect victims by legislating for all unaccompanied and separated migrant children to have access to independent legal guardians. Language and cultural barriers mean that separated migrant children are less likely to be aware of, and know how to access, their rights as children. Access to guardians could make the position much more acceptable, and could make it easier to help those who need help most at the time when they need it.

I was pleased to note that the Government would introduce a Serious Crime Bill. It is particularly pleasing that the Bill includes a clarification of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 to make it explicit that emotional cruelty which is likely to cause psychological harm to a child is an offence. Our current law on neglect is shamefully outdated and inadequate. Embarrassingly, the United Kingdom is one of the only countries in the world that fails to recognise emotional neglect as the crime that it is. Do the Government intend to remedy our country’s shortcomings swiftly and satisfactorily? I hope that the answer will be yes, but how will that happen? The current legislation states ambiguously that cruelty to a child must be “wilful” to be considered a criminal offence. Will the Government ensure that neglect is not too narrowly defined, and replace “wilful” with “intentional”?

While the Serious Crime Bill recognises emotional neglect as a criminal offence, I urge the Government to take further steps to provide earlier and more effective interventions for neglected young people, and to secure the prevention of neglect in general. I should also like to know what steps the Government have in mind to ensure that adolescents who have experienced neglect are adequately supported, and enabled to overcome their earlier experiences and become successful adults.

The issue of borders between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland has highlighted a surge in the number of people who fly to the Republic, cross the border into Northern Ireland, and then take the boat to Scotland carrying cigarettes and other untaxed goods that rob customs, and hence the taxpayer. Last week my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) commented on the loss to the Exchequer of as much as £100 million as a result of that border issue. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what steps are being taken to deal with that.

This is not strictly relevant to today’s debate, but I welcome the Government’s commitment to dealing with the issue of plastic bags. Northern Ireland has been very successful in that regard. The Executive has given £6 million to the Department of the Environment for various projects, and plastic bag use has declined by 80%. That is another example of what happens when good proposals are implemented.

However, I was disappointed by the lack of proposals to implement the Government’s promises of legislation for plain packaging for cigarettes, a subject that arose during Health questions today. There is clear evidence that such a move would greatly help the fight against cancer, and would reduce the number of children who take up smoking—an issue about which I feel very strongly. I do not pose this question directly to the Minister, but I should like it to be recorded in Hansard: why are the Government dragging their heels? I hope that a fear of the tobacco industry has not got the better of them.

I should also like to know what plans the Government have to regulate the new e-cigarette industry. That is an issue that arises every day, and we feel some concern about it. The new product has not yet been subjected to the rigorous tests undergone by other approved nicotine replacement therapies such as patches and gum, which could ensure its safety and effectiveness. An estimated 2.1 million adults in Great Britain use electronic cigarettes. We need regulation, and we need the product to be tested.

I must observe the time limit that you suggested, Madam Deputy Speaker, so that others will have an opportunity to speak. I am anxious for well-deserved praise to be given to the Government for measures such as the solidification of the married tax allowance, which my party has supported along with the Conservative party, but I must also emphasise that much more can and must be accomplished during the coming year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Dowd]

Once the process is complete; once progress has been made and it has been established that there is no further progress to be made. Putting down the finishing line before you have described the course is a ridiculous proposition and it was designed wholly and solely—I sat on the European Union (Referendum) Bill Committee—to keep Conservative Back Benchers happy. That is all it was.

As everyone knows, the other facet of the coalition Government is that the Prime Minister has spent more time rowing with his Back Benchers than he has ever done with the Liberal Democrats. That is the point that I want to come to now—the separation of the coalition. It has already unravelled so we will just see how the parting of the ways occurs.

In the European and local elections of the week before last, the biggest losers by a mile were the Liberals. I am delighted to say that in my constituency we also resisted firmly, as they did across London, the blandishments of UKIP. There are no Liberal councillors now in the London borough of Lewisham or the London borough of Bromley, and no Tory councillors in the London borough of Lewisham for the first time in history, but that is another consideration. So we feel that we did quite well in our small corner.

The reason why the Liberal Democrats were almost wholly obliterated in large parts of the country is that people do not know what they stand for any more. They used to be the party of “a plague on all your houses”. UKIP has supplanted them in that, so what purpose do they have? The answer in most people’s estimation is precious little. I heard a defeated Liberal councillor say, “We need to get out and get our message across more clearly.” I think it is the other way round. I think they went out with their message and people understood it and rejected it. That is the truth of where they are. There is no automaticity about recovery between now and the election. I shall miss some of them, though. There was a fabulous anti-war song by Roy Orbison back in the ’60s called “There won’t be many coming home.” When I look at the Liberal Benches now, I think to myself that after the next election there won’t be many coming back.

[Jim Shannon]

Don’t sing it.

[Jim Dowd]

No, I wouldn’t.

A lot of people said that the coalition would not last. I always thought that it would, and so it has proved, but the most intriguing question was always going to be how it disengaged. The Conservatives have worked themselves into a position in which they will get the credit for anything that, rightly or wrongly, is perceived to have gone right, and the Liberals will get all the blame, and that bodes ill for them.

We are exactly where we are, but the position is exacerbated by the Liberals promising to do one thing before an election and doing the total reverse afterwards. They cannot get away with behaving in that fashion and people do have memories and will exercise their judgment in the light of that. It will be hugely entertaining in the next few months to see how the coalition parties defend the coalition but attack each other. They will do so more and more ferociously as next May beckons.

Lord Ashcroft has embarked on an expensive round of weekly polls, principally on behalf of the Conservative party, although to give him his due, he makes them freely available to anyone who wants to read them. The polls have shown a number of changes just in the past week between the three parties. Perhaps we are in three or perhaps we are in four-party politics. I think that we may be in three-party politics in so far as UKIP has supplanted the Liberal Democrats in the national political scene. We will wait for it all to unravel. We are in for an intriguing and exciting time, but one thing is certain—this coalition will end with a whimper, not a bang.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), who, as ever, made a thoughtful and important speech on an issue that generally unites the House rather than divides it.

I apologise to the House for being away for a short time while I was attending the Health Committee, but of course I was here for the opening speeches and the first few contributions. I want to focus on a number of areas related to home affairs, including policing in my constituency, immigration and criminals in our jails, including several issues that have arisen following a visit that I recently made to a prison near my constituency.

As I said in my earlier intervention on the Home Secretary, I welcome the social action, responsibility and heroism Bill. Some people might not think that it is necessary, but those who try to do good as volunteers or just as passers-by in society often feel that the law is against them and they are not protected, as may well be the case, and anything that gives a nod in that direction is important.

I have mentioned my own experience working as a first responder with the ambulance service every weekend. One of my staff members—they are all trained as first responders as well—recently came across somebody who was in cardiac arrest, and had sadly died, but was laid out on the side of the road. He was the first one on the scene who was prepared to do anything to try to assist that person. There is not only the fear of getting involved, which is very difficult to get rid of, but the fear in the backs of many people’s minds that if they do something they may make the situation even worse and then end up being sued for it.

This applies not only to such experiences. Whenever it snows in my village, I clear the section of the path between the old people’s home and the pub, and people say as they are going past, “Be careful or you’ll get sued.” Thankfully, I have not been; I think some of the residents of the old people’s home have enjoyed being able to get to the Percy Arms. Although I have not faced any legal action, a lot of people have the perception that, if they try to do right, they will fall foul of some legal issue and end up being arrested or sued in the courts. I very much welcome this Bill as a nod in the right direction in that regard.

I want to say a little about crime and policing locally. I have never been a particular fan of the reductions in the police budget, which is why I always try to speak every time that we agree the police estimates, but I will not rehash my previous speeches on that subject. An awful lot more needs to be done on partnership working with the police. Whenever I meet the police locally, they outline the financial savings that they have to make, and I am fully conscious of the difficulties involved in that. However, I still get the impression—I will give a practical example in a moment—that the police have not fully embraced proper partnership working and engaging with other agencies such as local authorities and other emergency services. When they talk about partnership working, they seem to mean that they are prepared to work with other police forces, but when it comes to working with others there is still something of a silo mentality. More needs to be done by the leadership nationally, to drive the issue forward and make sure that some of the savings can be realised. I am concerned that when it comes to back-office costs and senior management, not enough is being done at the top to share work between agencies other than police forces.

My constituency is represented by two local authorities: the East Riding of Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire. North Lincolnshire council has been very forward thinking in playing its part not only in helping the police and crime commissioner to achieve his crime plan, but in reducing crime and the fear of crime locally. The council has funded a number of CCTV projects, including in Epworth and Winterton in my constituency, for which I and the ward councillors were pleased to secure the funding.

The council has also funded police community support officers for rural communities. Crime mapping and the allocation of police service resources focus on crime hot spots, which tend not to be in rural areas, so in my own area, North Lincolnshire council worked with me on a project to find funding for five police community support officers—two on the Isle of Axholme, one in the Burton and Winterton policing team, one in the Brigg team and another in the Barton team. They are now in post and are having a real impact.

Unfortunately, the area in which we are having trouble with the police force locally relates to the need to go further and expand the project with even more council-funded PCSOs. It is not often that one public body tries to throw money at another, only for the intended recipient not to want it, but that is a problem in my own area at present. The council is not able to shovel more money at the police force to employ more PCSOs, and none of the various reasons for that are acceptable either to myself as a local representative or to local people who tell us strongly that they do not believe that policing in our rural communities is being prioritised, because the crime rates mean that resources are not being allocated to them. When the local authority steps up and says, “We will buy in that extra provision to make people feel safe,” and the police say they do not want it, something is obviously going very badly wrong.

I am not criticising Humberside police, who have done a fine job of handling the significant financial challenge that they face. Their officers are dedicated and they have a good chief constable and senior officer team, but their intransigence on this issue is a cause of deep concern and regret. A lot more needs to be done regarding partnership working, and the police need to change some of their practices to properly embrace that.

It was interesting to hear the pro-immigration speech of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) and I suppose we should respect him for that. I expect him to be pro-immigration, given that he wants to make very large numbers of Scottish people immigrants in England. Perhaps it is no wonder that he is so pro-immigration.

What concerns me about the immigration debate is that since the Euro election results, too many people seem to want to jump up and say that we should respond by informing people that they are wrong to think what they think about immigration. I find that deeply patronising and insulting to my constituents. I have seen that happen in my own area. When the migrant support grant went, I was summoned to a meeting to discuss it. There has been significant immigration from the European Union to the town of Goole since 2003. When I intervened on the shadow Home Secretary earlier, I asked her to apologise to the people of Goole, who have seen up to between 20% and 25% of their town come from eastern Europe. She chose not to apologise for that or for visiting my constituency recently without informing me. That is the context of why people in Goole are very concerned about immigration, and they should be listened to.

I was called to that meeting to talk about that fund by people, none of whom live in the Goole area, who wanted to tell me how awful it is that the people in Goole think the things they think. Yes, people sometimes do not use language that we might like them to use, but I find it wrong to brush aside their concerns in a patronising way and to talk down to them, saying, “Oh, Mrs Smith, you really mustn’t use language like that. How dare you.” Mrs Smith is not a racist. She is concerned about her community when her street in Goole—in many cases, a street of terraced houses—is suddenly peopled by large numbers of young males from eastern Europe. That has changed the dynamic of her street, and her concerns are legitimate.

This is not about rounding on Mrs Smith to make her better understand why immigration is good for this country and why she should put up with it, but about responding to her concern. She is concerned not about people who want to contribute coming to my constituency to work, but about the uncontrolled nature of the numbers and, in some cases, the types of people. Some of the large number of young people behave in a way that many in our area do not understand and do not consider acceptable, and they want that behaviour to be challenged. It very much concerns me that, since the vote in Europe, the debate seems to be all about how awful it is that people think such things, as opposed to trying to address their genuine concerns.

In my constituency almost half, if not more, of the intake of some schools are children—mainly Polish and Latvian—for whom English is their second language. Some of our GP lists have been closed, so there is a mad situation in which people whose children return to Goole after having temporarily moved away now cannot register with the GP who was their family GP when they were growing up. To use the example of Mrs Smith, she would of course look at that and think, “How is it that my son or daughter, who was born and bred in this town, cannot now go to the doctor who has cared for them all through their life, while someone can suddenly appear from another country and register with that doctor, with no controls on their ability to do so?” The anger comes from such a perception, and until we start to recognise that people have legitimate concerns—I have mentioned housing issues—we will get nowhere.

I am sorry to say that none of the current responses of any of the parties is acceptable or goes far enough. To try to get tough on non-EU immigration and all the rest of it in order to bring down the numbers is fine as far as it goes. However, the situation in my constituency is not about non-EU immigration, but EU immigration. We have to do something about the free movement of labour across Europe. We are losing people and losing the country on this issue, and until we address that fact, UKIP or other fringe parties of that nature—I would not necessarily call UKIP a fringe party now—will gain traction. I hope that in the next year or two, if we get a renegotiation on Europe, this issue will be addressed. Uncontrolled EU immigration is no longer acceptable and is not working.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman has mentioned housing, employment opportunities and health. The same also applies to education, in that school places have been lost to those living in such areas because of the level of immigration.

[Andrew Percy]

Absolutely. In fact, I mentioned schools in relation to their intake. We have had the problem of people living just outside the catchment area of the school that they went to as a child, but finding, because of this massive pressure on places, that they cannot get their child into their old school. All that feeds into a perception of unfairness and of immigration being bad, which I do not think people at the top have necessarily understood.