Covid-19: Vaccination of Children

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 21st September 2021 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) on bringing forward the debate. We had a discussion beforehand about her ideas for the thrust of the debate, and I have to say that my ideas concur with hers. Much of what I will say has been put forward already.

It is good to see the Minister in her place. I wish her well in her new role. I look forward to working with her on issues that we will find we have an interest in. I am also pleased to see the shadow Minister in her place. She and I have many things in common, and one is Leicester City football club. We are perhaps not doing as well at the moment as we could do, but we look forward to better days in the future.

My boys are grown up and I am now at the grandparent stage. I do not have as much of a role to play in the childminding as my wife does, but I understand that this morning she started childminding at 5 am, which is an early slot, because the two boys’ parents are working, one from 5 am and the other coming back at 8 am. I know that Government have always been of the opinion that families are core and central to society, and that is what I want to see as well.

Of my grandchildren, the two biggest girls have isolated on two or three occasions. I am glad to say that they have never had covid, but none the less that is the system: if one child in the class takes it, the whole class is out. I concur with the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge that we need a better system so that we do not necessarily have to go to those lengths every time.

I am vaccinated, and very pleased to be so. I believe in the effectiveness of the vaccine, but I also believe in reasoned parental consent. I believe that parents have a right to determine the best course of action, in co-ordination with medical staff on best practice. I put questions about this to the former vaccines Minister, the right hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), last week and the week before in the Chamber. I respect him greatly, because he is very good at his job and committed. However, I was not totally convinced by his answers. I say that respectfully because I was not sure that the final decision would always lie with the parents.

I am encouraged by the news this morning that 89.1% now have double jabs and 81.3% have single jabs. We are moving in the right direction, so there is good news on the vaccine front. The medical evidence is by no means empirical at this stage. There are strong suggestions that

“new scientific advice does not endorse universal vaccination of all children over 12 in the UK”.

If scientists are saying that, we cannot ignore them. They are saying:

“The latest advice recommends that the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine should be offered to a wider number of children directly at risk from covid-19, and to children living with an immunosuppressed person. There is very good evidence that children who have covid-19 are much less likely to develop severe symptoms and much less likely to die from the disease than adults. While rare in children, serious outcomes from covid-19 have been studied in this group. The strongest risk factor is having some underlying health problems, including neurological and cardiac conditions or complex neuro-disability.”

The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge referred to those with disabilities. Reuben, the son of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), came home from school 10 days ago. Out of his class of 28, 26 children had covid. They had to self-isolate because my hon. Friend has asthma, and his case is quite serious. While we have to do things, there must genuinely be a better way. It is not the Minister’s responsibility to respond for education, but I am keen to find out what discussions she has had with Education Ministers on this issue, and how we could better handle it. That is what I would like to see.

My parliamentary private secretary has two children. One comes home from school and has to isolate because someone in the class has got covid, though they have not. They potentially bring it in to the house. I cannot understand, and neither can she, why they cannot go back to school. They have to isolate from the classroom but can interact with the family, including a sister who is in a different class. We need to have a better way of looking at that.

In my opinion, some parents may decide, following medical advice, that the jab is the safer option. The starting point must be that it is a matter of opting in, not opting out. I have read some incredibly interesting data from Israel that suggests that immunity gained after recovering from a bout of covid-19 is more protective against the new delta variant than vaccine-induced immunity. Natural immunity was estimated to be about 13 times stronger than having two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. Natural immunity should be key to how we deal with this.

Added to that are our own data that show that children do not tend to become seriously ill. To me that underlines the importance of the Government allowing parents to determine. In saying that, there must not be any pressure applied by schools, such as restricting after-school sports clubs without vaccination proof. A child needs a normal life. The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge referred to the impact on children’s mental health. The figures for Northern Ireland show that the effect on mental health, even for children at primary school, is greater than ever. We need social interaction. That is why I am pleased to be back in Parliament and to have social interaction with people again, which is the way it should be. It is also important for children at school. The hon. Lady also referred to obesity, which it is important to put into perspective. The role of parents in physical health at school and home is critical.

Sometimes people go overboard on restrictions that are not always necessary. We need to be aware of how covid safety should be carried out while having a normal life and protecting children, yet making parental input central and critical. I will finish with this comment: I believe in the vaccine and am totally committed to what it has done. It has given us a leadership in the world through our vaccination programme, and I thank the Minister and the Government for their leadership.

[Karl MᶜCartney]

I picked up on the hon. Gentleman’s comments earlier about being sociable and being back in this place, and I did not want him to sit down having made a speech without being intervened on, as he is probably one of the most social Members across the House. Well done.

[Dame Angela Eagle (in the Chair)]

The sociable Jim Shannon.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Our friendship goes back to when our offices used to be across from each other on the same corridor, and I am very pleased to renew it again in this House.

I believe that we have seen a decline in covid due to the vaccine, and the benefits are clear to see. However, from a child’s perspective the tale is very different, and parental consent, hand in hand with medical guidance in specific cases, must be the way we move forward. I believe that is what we should be doing. I am pleased to have had the debate and I thank the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge again for securing it. I look forward to other contributions, which I hope will endorse what we have all said.

--- Later in debate ---

[Derek Thomas]

I am pretty sure I will not. I congratulate the Minister, who until last week was my favourite Whip and is now the vaccines Minister. It is a great honour to do that job, and I am sad we have to come up against this particular policy because across the board the vaccine programme has been remarkable. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) on securing the debate. The issue is agitating and concerning, and enormous numbers of people, including parents, schools and many others, feel it is a step too far.

I am a Conservative. I joined the Conservative party because of a belief in giving people freedom of choice, the ability to deliver and develop their own destiny, and the opportunity to live full, vibrant and fulfilling lives. I think this particular policy goes right against that, and I feel uncomfortable with it. It feels wrong, and I believe it is wrong to introduce this vaccination programme for children aged 12 to 15, considering all that has been said about consent this morning. Before I get started, may I just say that I feel privileged to be in this room where such great points and speeches have been made, because we care about families, children and how our schools are supported in a very difficult and unprecedented time?

Earlier in the year I went to visit St Clare medical centre in my constituency, which was delivering the vaccine programme with great fervour. It has an amazing system going on. In fact, with other primary care networks in my constituency, it was mentioned in dispatches for the incredible effort it put in to get the vaccine out to the most vulnerable people. My constituency was the fifth in the country in getting the most people vaccinated by the February half term.

I observed the logistical challenge and triumph of rolling out the vaccine programme and talked to the practice manager. She described why the additional workload was acceptable: a massive volunteer army was motivated and mobilised, there was an incredible collaboration of GPs, the NHS and all sorts of organisations that had got behind this, and there was organisation across the primary care networks. She said that all of that extra effort—the long weekends and the massive amount of work that went into it—was possible and worthwhile because it was part of the national effort. It really struck home that people right down at the end of the country, in the most beautiful part, who are often tucked away and not necessarily engaged in national efforts, were so enthusiastic and determined to make this work. West Cornwall primary care networks were mentioned by the Secretary of State at the time for their incredible effort in getting vaccines to people in such a quick and effective way.

During the roll-out of the vaccine programme, Ministers fiercely defended the decisions made by the JCVI. The JCVI determined the priority groups—who would get the vaccine and when—and Ministers refused to intervene. They were determined not to intervene, not even to prioritise teachers as schools opened in September last year. They refused to intervene to prioritise the police when some 10,000 policemen descended on my constituency in Cornwall for the G7. There was great concern about that, but Ministers refused to intervene to allow police officers of all ages to have the vaccine ahead of the priority groups set out by the JCVI. Why now, with the help of the chief medical officers, do the Government reject the advice of the JCVI? That advice states:

“The margin of benefit…is considered too small to support advice on a universal programme of vaccination of otherwise healthy 12 to 15-year-old children”.

It also says that

“any impact on transmission may be relatively small”.

In other words, schools would still be disrupted because the vaccine does not manage transmission. I, along with many others, recognise the wisdom of the JCVI’s advice JCVI in this area. We were surprised when, just weeks later, the Government and chief medical officer seemed to take a completely different course. I was relieved when the JCVI made its case and gave that very sound advice. Like many others, I was then disappointed and concerned that the Government seemed to go against it.

The reason for my concern is that the decision to override the JCVI advice will undermine confidence in the vaccine roll-out programme. Up until now, because of the way the JCVI has operated, the country has welcomed the approach, has supported it and had confidence in it. I wonder whether the Government are actually doing it a disservice by potentially undermining confidence in the roll-out. So far, the great strength of the vaccine roll-out is its voluntary nature, based on sound advice and a national united effort.

My fear is that the decision has been made for seemingly unsubstantiated reasons. There are gaping holes in the argument that it will minimise disruption of children’s education. My fear is that it risks turning a national effort into a tool to pressure children, undermine parents and drive an inadvertent wedge between families and schools. Under a new Secretary of State, the Government’s primary priority should be allowing schools to do what they do best: educating children. I ought to declare an interest as I have three children, who are in school at this very moment—or so I hope.

At the beginning of the year, I secured an Adjournment debate on the experience of schools. They have had a blooming rotten time, with changing advice and all sorts of things coming down from Government; they did not know if they were coming or going. What has really concerned schools, teachers and headteachers is that they have taken on a new role—trying to manage children’s health and parts of their welfare—that they never signed up for. It is not that they are unwilling, but that they do not have the time or resources, and they might even add the expertise, to take on those additional responsibilities when what they want is to educate children and give them the best start in life.

All Members’ constituency offices have supported schools in the bizarre work they have had to do to manage parents on different sides of different arguments when it comes to managing covid in schools. I have had parents who are furious with a school for insisting on face coverings in parts of the school, both before that was the official advice and since; I have also had parents furious with a school for saying children do not have to wear a face covering in the classroom. Those poor headteachers and staff have had to deal with that along with all the pressures of teaching children.

What do we do? We make their job a whole lot more difficult by putting schools at the centre of a decision that most of us in this room do not believe is robust or stands up to what scientists have said. We have asked them to take on the additional responsibility of vaccinating 12 to 15-year-olds, and to manage the various pressures that come with it, when all they want to do—all they thought they were doing—is go back to school in September, catch up and give their children a happy, healthy and wonderful experience being educated. I really feel for our children.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman has referred to one school where there were different opinions between parents about their children. There are different opinions in schools, but it is important to have a policy that is uniform across all schools. Does he feel that when the Minister replies, she could mention any discussions with the Secretary of State for Education about having a uniform policy which applies to all schools? Then the schools would have one rule they could all adhere to.

[Derek Thomas]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because I was going to come on to that. We are entering into a very difficult situation. We need to protect schools and enable them to do their job, not drive a wedge between parents and schools. At the same time, we want schools to be very clear about their responsibilities and how they can manage issues of coercion, peer pressure and so on. It is a tricky issue for the Minister to grapple with.

I would like the Minister to ensure and confirm three things. I imagine that it will make up the vast majority of her work over the next few weeks, now that the Government have made their decision. Obviously, many of us would rather they had ditched that decision and instead made sure that the vaccine got to people in developing countries who really need it. If we really care about keeping this country and the rest of the western world safe—if that is our priority—then supporting the vaccination of the whole world, instead of our children, is the answer. However, that is a separate issue that the vaccines Minister probably cannot address on her own.

In line with the intervention I have just received, can the Minister make it absolutely clear that parents have the information they need, that they understand their rights, and that they are very clear about schools’ role in providing the vaccine and supporting children to have the vaccine, if that is what parents wish for their children? Can we also ensure that the vaccine is given only when informed and voluntary consent is clearly given—when it is definitely there, free from peer pressure and coercion?

We are now asking schools to somehow play referee in a situation that should never be in their remit. The desire to get on top of covid and get things going again could lead to a situation where things go wrong and become difficult in the school environment.