Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Alison Hume). With name like Hume, I presume that she must have some Northern Irish ancestry. I congratulate her on a superb maiden speech. Her constituents will be extremely proud of her contribution. We look forward to hearing a whole lot more from her in the future. I have a special interest in Whitby and Scarborough, simply because it is “Heartbeat” territory. I am from the generation that can remember all the songs from the 1960s, which is probably why I started to watch that programme. It is a pleasure to hear from the hon. Lady. I knew the right honourable Gentleman who represented the constituency before her, and I know that he will be just as pleased as the rest of us that she is here.

It is a pleasure to participate in the debate. I declare an interest as I served in the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years, and in the Royal Artillery and Territorial Army for 11 and a half years. I am invested, as are all Members who have served in the armed forces, as well as those who have not, in the legislation before us. I am minded of the tens of thousands—probably hundreds of thousands—of people who have served in the armed forces in Northern Ireland. I am pleased to see the Minister for the Armed Forces in his place. I do not want to give him a big head, but whenever the Minister brings something to the Chamber, he always asks for our opinions and contributions, which means a lot to MPs. It is the honest way of doing things, and I thank him for that. Earlier on, the Secretary of State rightly said that this is “landmark legislation”. I think every hon. Member will greatly welcome it.

I welcome the fact that the legislation will apply to Northern Ireland, something that we in Northern Ireland do not take for granted when it comes to the armed forces and what appears to be an appeasement of those who hate those armed forces in Northern Ireland. For the record, I commend Councillor Trevor Cummings, the veterans champion for Ards and North Down borough council, in my constituency of Strangford, on his great work and his interest in Army and police issues. He will welcome this legislation, just as I welcome it. We look forward to it being implemented in Northern Ireland to the same extent that it is implemented in England.

I am pleased that respect and access to armed forces personnel support will be available, unlike access to the military covenant, which my party had to fight to see implemented in any form for our veterans. For too long, veterans in Northern Ireland have been treated as second class citizens, shamed for simply doing their duty. I hope this legislation signals a new approach to veterans in Northern Ireland. I asked the Minister a question in Defence questions earlier, and he came back with a very positive answer. I hope he will be able to repeat his answer, so that it is recorded in Hansard and will provide reassurance to people back home. I would like clarity about how the commissioner will ensure that those serving in all parts of the United Kingdom are treated equitably in the exercise of the new commissioner’s functions. I received a positive answer from the Minister when I asked that question earlier.

Given Northern Ireland’s disproportionate contribution to reserve forces, we have a particular interest in ensuring that the commissioner provides an effective outlet for members of our armed forces and their families—it is important that we have that. How will the commissioner’s remit interact with the armed forces covenant, which was there before? There was some difficulty with that covenant, but I am encouraged by this legislation and I hope we will welcome the Bill’s Third Reading before too long.

I was pleased that in the King’s Speech, there was recognition of the gratitude owed to those who have made sacrifices for our freedom and liberty. Today, we are here to scrutinise the outworking of that gratitude. In my opinion, that is not extravagant or groundbreaking, and a proper service should always have been delivered to those whose quality of life has been impacted by their service.

In common with many other hon. Members, I know too many veterans whose internal scars from service have precluded them from keeping relationships with their family, keeping steady jobs or building friendships with people who simply cannot understand what they have been through. Many of those proud men and women would never apply for help, or complain about the lack of support that they have received. I welcome the fact that family members can now advocate to the Armed Forces Commissioner for services for a veteran; that is a massive step forward for veterans and their entire family unit. It is good news. Where we have seen difficulties before, we can see positives, going forward, which is good.

I hope that part of the role of the Armed Forces Commissioner will be to ensure that veterans have an accessible route to support that will skip the red tape and arrive at a sensible approach. It is important that if a service member retires or leaves service while the commissioner is still processing a complaint, it is effectively transferred to the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner. Will the Minister tell us where that will fit into the process? A joined-up approach is important, so I seek assurance that that will happen.

The Minister for Veterans and People is not in his place, but I know that he will be back shortly. I have invited him to visit the Beyond the Battlefield veterans centre in Portavogie in my constituency. Both the Minister for the Armed Forces and the Veterans Minister know it well, and I hope that the Veterans Minister will visit in the near future. The centre was designed and built with short-term respite for veterans in mind. It is a place for veterans and their families to come to for a break, with counselling services available, and for a change, to enjoy the peaceful and restful environment of the incomparable Ards peninsula, where I happen to live. The centre is excellent and is up and running. Harbour House provides shelter to ex-service personnel who are homeless or suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. The centre does an excellent job, for which we are very grateful. Beyond the Battlefield, a charity that helps serving and retired members of the service community, transformed a once derelict building into a dedicated veterans centre. The charity provides practical help and advice on issues such as PTSD, war pensions, benefits, housing, medals and funerals. I have been pleased, privileged and honoured to work alongside the charity’s staff to help veterans move forward and make their life better.

Entering Harbour House, veterans come into a welcoming reception area with tea and coffee making facilities, and there are 10 bedroom suites. The charity does a phenomenal job. There are plans to extend the facility, and I am sure that the Veterans Minister will be asked about that when he visits. The previous Government had hoped to provide some funding. I do not want the charity to have to come to the Government cap in hand, but it wants to do what it does better, and to add to what it has in place. Those 10 bedroom suites are full all the time, but the building could be extended to increase its capacity—and it would still be full.

In Northern Ireland, we have a commitment to service. We never needed conscription in Northern Ireland because we were always able to get volunteers. When the Veterans Minister comes, we will show him the phenomenal job that Beyond the Battlefield is doing. It has a coffee shop that is open to the public, which helps to meet people’s needs and is well supported, but central funding is severely lacking. It is the only veterans respite centre in Northern Ireland. Its importance cannot be sufficiently underlined. It serves and looks after veterans from the six counties, and probably further afield.

Beyond the Battlefield cannot secure funding, and relies on charitable fundraising. If someone wants a cup of coffee or a meal, Harbour House has been commended for its food. There is scope for more rooms to be created, and more good work to be done. The installation of the armed forces commissioner has been endorsed and supported by everybody, because it is the right thing to do, and will be best for everyone across this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It will provide greater focus on the needs of our armed forces and veterans, and I believe that support for projects such as Beyond the Battlefield will naturally flow from it.

I again thank the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby for setting the scene for this young man to make his contribution. She is the star; I am just a follower. Most of us in this House attended remembrance services last week. We are all aware of the debt that we owe to not simply those who gave their life in the world wars, but all those who have served—in guerrilla warfare from Afghanistan to Armagh, and from Erbil to Enniskillen. The debt is not paid in one day, with the recitation of a poem—I do not mean that disrespectfully—but through living and breathing. I hope that the creation of this post will breathe fresh air into the obligation that we have to those who offer us their all; I am convinced that it will.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)]

I thank all Members who have spoken in this debate. A number of Members spoke about the importance of this time of year. Last week, I was on the Falkland Islands to represent the Government and Falklands veterans from Plymouth, to lay a wreath at the war memorial that remembers the 255 members of UK armed forces who died in the 1982 conflict, and to lay a further wreath to remember the 49 members of our armed forces who have died subsequently in accidents and other incidents on the Falkland Islands. Remembrance is a special time of year. It is an opportunity for all of us, whatever our walk of life, to thank those who have served, to remember those people who never came home, and to offer our support to those people who came back forever changed. I am grateful to Members across the House for their participation in remembrance events, and the support they have shown to our armed forces and veterans community.

I am grateful to Members across the House for their contributions to the debate. It has been truly heartwarming to listen to speeches from all sides of the House about the passion and respect for, and dignity of, members of the armed forces. I will touch on a few of the questions asked, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell), the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), the hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan (Harriet Cross), my hon. Friends the Members for Slough (Mr Dhesi) and for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas), the hon. Member for Exmouth and Exeter East (David Reed), my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Luke Akehurst), the hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens (Dave Doogan), my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Alison Hume) and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey), for Portsmouth North (Amanda Martin), for Colchester (Pam Cox), for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger), for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie), for Livingston (Gregor Poynton), for Hartlepool (Mr Brash), for Bracknell (Peter Swallow), for Broxtowe (Juliet Campbell), for Dudley (Sonia Kumar), for South West Norfolk (Terry Jermy) and for Aldershot (Alex Baker). I also thank the Front-Bench spokespersons for their contributions: the hon. Members for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) and for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire), and the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois). That is a tour de force of our nations and regions, and we should all be proud of the way our armed forces are held in such regard across our country.

I pay special tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hogsmeade Station—my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby—for her brilliant maiden speech and for her words about Jo Cox. Jo Cox inspired both in life and in death. I hope there will be many more brilliant women who follow in my hon. Friend’s footsteps and join her on these Benches because of the work Jo Cox inspired.

Members from across the House raised a number of issues. I will attempt, in summing up, to deal with a number of them, but if I do not cover them all, I would be grateful if Members could continue this debate, because the Bill is important. It is important that we get this right. It is important that we set the parameters for the Armed Forces Commissioner—the powers and the role they will have—and in particular stressing the impartiality and independence of the role. That is absolutely key.

I was struck by just how many Members began their speeches with an assessment of where we are now. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot described personnel as feeling worn down. The hon. Member for Exmouth and Exeter East described the significant shortfalls in recruitment and an exodus of skills and personnel in recent years, and he is correct to do so. A number of Members related that to the evidence the MOD collects in the continuous attitude surveys. The falling morale in the attitudes of our armed forces personnel really stand as a roll call of shame for the previous Government. It is not the fault of armed forces personnel, but a collective failure to address the issues that underpin service life. That is one of the reasons why this Government proposed an Armed Forces Commissioner and why we must get it right to provide a direct contact for our armed forces personnel and their families.

A number of Members spoke about the culture in our armed forces. The vast majority of people who serve our country do so with the right values and the right attitude, but there are far too many examples where that is not the case. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell for raising the Atherton review. The report by Sarah Atherton in the previous Parliament should be compulsory reading for all Members of Parliament. I say to new Members who have joined us since the 2024 general election that it is well worth a google to understand the experience of so many women in our armed forces—it is worth having on your bedside table.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead spoke very passionately about bringing to justice perpetrators who act against the spirit of our armed forces and diminish the experience of service life for so many other people. He is correct to do so. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar likewise spoke about the importance of lifting our culture. The role of the Armed Forces Commissioner has been specifically designed so that they can investigate issues related to general service welfare matters for those who serve and their families. It is not for me as a Minister, or for the Secretary of State or anyone else on the Government Bench, to set out what the Armed Forces Commissioner should investigate. It is for us to give that person the powers and the ability to get to the heart of the problems.

I am grateful to all Members who very kindly gave the Front Bench words of advice. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View said it will not be easy reading the commissioner’s reports, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston. The hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens described the Government as leaving themselves open to scrutiny. My hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell spoke about the proof being in the pudding. They are all right to do so. We are deliberately opening ourselves to scrutiny because it will improve the lives of those people who serve and their families. It is a strength of this Government that we feel open to wanting additional scrutiny and I am grateful to Members who encouraged it. I further encourage Members to look at how these powers can be strengthened and scrutinised over the course of the Bill’s passage.

A number of Members spoke about the Bill’s application to veterans. I am grateful to all who spoke about the important contribution of those people who have served our armed forces and served our nations in years past. The Bill is deliberately drawn to focus relentlessly on armed forces personnel serving today and their families. That is not because we wish to discard the experiences of veterans; far from it. It is because we believe—looking at the continuous attitude surveys, the falling morale and more people leaving our armed forces than joining—there is a problem that needs to be addressed for those people who serve our nation.

The powers of the Armed Forces Commissioner are deliberately drawn to focus on those people who serve. It is explicit in the Bill that we are dealing with people who serve in uniform today and their families, and we make no apology for doing so. However, a number of issues have been raised in the debate, and I shall be grateful if those who have raised them continue to take them up with the Minister for Veterans and People, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns), who is keen for us not only to support veterans but, in particular, to look at the existing programmes and policies to ensure that they are worthwhile.

[Jim Shannon]

Many soldiers and other service personnel suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder and may be reluctant to come forward and seek help, but the people who know them best are their families, who can do so on their behalf. That is the great thing about the Bill: it provides that opportunity.

[Luke Pollard]

The hon. Gentleman is right about the important role that families play in supporting not just serving personnel but veterans. I am grateful to him for mentioning families, and to a number of other Members who spoke passionately about that important role that they play and the need for the commissioner to be open to representations from family members. I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for Slough, who spoke about bereaved families in an intervention during the Secretary of State’s speech. The Bill does not give an exact definition of family members; that will be included in secondary legislation that will be published between the House of Commons and House of Lords stages. I am glad that the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell talked about kinship carers, and I should be happy to discuss them with her. We want to get this right, and putting such a definition in the Bill will enable it to be locked in. I want Members on both sides of the House to feel empowered to challenge us and help us to provide that definition, so that the Bill is drafted adequately to help serving personnel and their families to deal with service life—and that must include all the shapes and sizes of families as they exist today.

A number of Members mentioned the spending of 2.5% of GDP on defence, to which the Government are committed. The Bill states explicitly that the Armed Forces Commissioner will deal with general service welfare matters. I think it important for me to put that on record, because the commissioner will be dealing with the lived experience of those who serve and their families. This will not involve looking into “Secret Squirrel” operations or operational deployments, or the spending of 2.5%, 2.4% or any other figure; it will involve looking specifically at the welfare of those who serve. However, I realise that a number of Members want to make points about the 2.5%, and I will continue to encourage them to do so. I hope that they also welcome the extra £3 billion for defence that was announced in the Budget only a few weeks ago.

Several Members spoke about the armed forces covenant and this new Government’s manifesto commitment to putting it fully into law. I reassure them that the determination to do that is strong in the ministerial team. The Defence Secretary himself has made it clear that he wants it to be included in the armed forces Bill, which is the next piece of legislation on which the MOD will be working. I am grateful to the Members who spoke so passionately about the importance of the covenant in their constituencies. My hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent Central and for Hartlepool in particular, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and my next-door neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View, spoke with passion about armed forces champions. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View and I share a brilliant armed forces champion in Councillor Pauline Murphy, and her determination and fierce approach to protecting and supporting the armed forces family are precisely what I hope to see in the Armed Forces Commissioner, because we need someone who will focus relentlessly on improving service life.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Consideration of Lords amendments
Tuesday 3rd June 2025 Commons Chamber

[Luke Pollard]

I am delighted that the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill has returned to the House. I rise to speak to Lords amendments 1, 4, 5, 6 and 7, which were proposed by the Government in the other place, as well as Lords amendments 2 and 3, which were proposed by the Opposition and to which we have proposed an amendment in lieu to strengthen them.

Before I start, I would like to recognise the publication of the strategic defence review yesterday, which signifies a landmark shift in our deterrence and defence. We made clear then, as I do today, that our people are at the heart of defence. The strategic defence review sets out our mission to look after our people better, to unlock their full potential, and to build a “one defence” culture that is focused, inclusive, respectful, and centred on valuing all contributions. The establishment of an Armed Forces Commissioner is a key part of that mission.

I thank all Members of both Houses for their scrutiny of this important piece of legislation. It is a landmark step in this Government’s commitment to renew the nation’s contract with those who serve and to strengthen support for our armed forces and the families who stand behind those who serve our nation. I extend my thanks in particular to Lord Coaker, the Minister in the House of Lords, for his invaluable support and collaborative approach in guiding the Bill through the other place. I also thank Baroness Goldie, the Earl of Minto, Baroness Smith of Newnham, Lord Stirrup, Lord Stansgate, Lord Browne of Ladyton, Lord Beamish and Baroness Newlove, to name just a few who made valuable contributions in the other place on this important piece of legislation.

Seven amendments were made to the Bill in the other place. Before I turn to them, I remind colleagues that this Bill is part of a manifesto commitment made by Labour during the general election to improve the service life of all those who serve and, importantly, to provide for the very first time an opportunity for family members to raise concerns about service welfare as well.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I think all of us in the House very much welcome the Armed Forces Commissioner. We have a new commissioner in Northern Ireland who is doing an excellent job. There is also a role for local councils to deliver the armed forces covenant. For councils in Northern Ireland that are perhaps hesitant—I am being very gentle with my words here—to fully integrate the covenant, will they be encouraged to embrace in totality the opportunities that the Bill provides? Everything in the Bill is good, and I think the Government need to be congratulated on all they are doing.

[Luke Pollard]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Implementing the armed forces covenant is something that this Government feel strongly about. That is why we are bringing forward legislation that will implement the armed forces covenant fully into law on a national basis, so that it grips not just on local authorities but on central Government. There is real merit in implementing the armed forces covenant at a local level. There are pockets of best practice nationwide—not just in military cities like Plymouth, which I represent, but across the country. It can also be of benefit to councils and communities, so I would encourage him to continue his campaign to ensure that the covenant is properly implemented.

For too long we have heard stories of bad experiences that have gone unchallenged, some resulting in tragedy. The Defence Secretary has made it clear from his first day in the Department that there will be zero tolerance for this type of behaviour. That is why we are acting, and that is why I hope that the whole House will support this vital endeavour and the amendments to the Bill.

I invite the House to agree to Lords amendments 1, 4, 5 and 6, which were made by the Government in response to suggestions made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. They have the effect of fully implementing the Committee’s recommendations to change the regulation-making power to define relevant family members contained in the Bill from the negative to the affirmative procedure.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Consideration of Lords message
Wednesday 2nd July 2025 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)]

I beg to move,

That this House insists on Commons amendment 2A, to which the Lords have disagreed, and disagrees with the Lords in Lords amendments 2B and 2C proposed in lieu of that amendment.

Before I start, I place on record my thanks to all those right hon. and hon. Members who supported Armed Forces Day events at the weekend across the length and breadth of our country. The Secretary of State had the privilege of attending the national event in Cleethorpes, and I spent time with our armed forces community on Plymouth Hoe to see the fantastic turnout not just of armed forces personnel but of their families, veterans, and the charities and organisations that support everyone who serves and has served. Meeting and hearing from service personnel and their families at this important moment of recognition of our armed forces is a great honour, and provides a moment of reflection for everyone in this House on the great service that those in the military provide to the nation.

I am disappointed that the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill has returned to this House. The last time we were here, a full month ago, I explained that the Bill already delivers what the other House had inserted. I am therefore disappointed that the amendment in the name of Baroness Goldie seeks to replace the Government amendment with other amendments, which I am afraid are deeply flawed. I will explain why.

To be absolutely clear, we are all in agreement about the intention behind the Lords amendments. Defence personnel must feel empowered and protected in coming forward with their concerns, and I absolutely agree that we need to address and eliminate toxic behaviours and cultures in our armed forces. This Government are committed to doing exactly that, which is the whole reason we are shining a light on the welfare matters of our people and legislating for an independent champion in the form of the Armed Forces Commissioner.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the Minister and the Government for bringing this Bill forward, and I understand the issue—I spoke to the Minister just beforehand. Lords amendment 2 deals with whistleblowers and protections for family members, which are necessary. I have a complaint ready to hand to the Minister that was facilitated by family members watching the effect on their loved one. Does the Minister agree that it is right and proper that loved ones have a mechanism for ensuring the right thing is done by those who are legitimately whistleblowing?

[Luke Pollard]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention, and I agree with him. It is precisely for that reason that the Government are insisting on our amendment and not accepting the Opposition amendment made in the other place, because that amendment does not include family members. I agree that including loved ones—family members, for the purposes of the wording of the Bill—within the remit of the Armed Forces Commissioner is an important new step in providing not just members in uniform, but their immediate family members as defined in the secondary legislation that will accompany the Bill, with the opportunity to raise a general service welfare matter.

I agree that there is a lot more we can debate on these matters, and there will be an opportunity to do so during the passage of the next armed forces Bill. However, I say to all Members that I am concerned that going round again on this matter only holds up delivery of a key element that will be used to tackle the very issues this amendment seeks to address. Namely, it holds up the establishment of an Armed Forces Commissioner, which was a key manifesto commitment for defence. The longer this Bill is prevented from becoming law, the greater the disservice we do to our armed forces and their families. I sincerely hope that today we can send a united message from this House that we do not wish to delay this vital legislation any further.