Provisional Local Government Finance Settlement

Debate between Jim McMahon and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 18th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim McMahon]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Where councils such as Calderdale are doing well and excelling, they are working hand in glove with the local community and voluntary organisations to ensure they get the coverage to reach into communities. I applaud that work, and I hope that the 7.4% uplift in core spending power in this part of the settlement goes some way to supporting it.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for a positive statement on the funding that is available. Government policy states that local government is the foundation of a good state, from bin collections to driving economic growth. It is paramount that that is done across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What discussions has the Minister had, or will he have with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland regarding the possibility of securing greater funding through the Barnett consequentials so that Northern Ireland can have the funding it needs to stimulate local, community and economic growth?

[Jim McMahon]

I probably have to be a bit careful not to stray into that, given that this is a statement about councils in England, but the premise of the hon. Member’s question about adequate funding for local public services is correct. Let us remember that councils deliver more than 800 different services to local communities in England. They employ more than a million people, many of whom will be local people of the community. Councils are a huge power and force for good, and I will certainly ensure that the representation he has made is passed on to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

5G Masts: Greater Manchester

Debate between Jim McMahon and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 13th March 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim McMahon]

I share entirely those concerns about the impact. I will come on to some of the interventions we made in Oldham to try to bridge that divide on consultation, communication and co-production.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman on bringing this forward. To support him and his claim, to which others have referred, I can give an example from back home. In Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon Borough Council, the very same issue has arisen. It involves health and safety concerns about the installation of these masts, as residents felt there was a lack of consultation. I understand that we all need 5G, but does the hon. Member agree that we need better communication from local planners on installation and the safety of masts that have been approved? That is what the hon. Member wants, and that is what we want back home.

[Jim McMahon]

That is the crux of the issue. Not many people object in principle to the installation of new equipment that makes life easier and better for people. Connectivity in the digital age is important for that, but how it is done is critical to garnering community support.

I want to paint a picture of what this means. Imagine someone sitting in the house they have worked hard for, where they are raising their children and where they have put down roots. It could be a normal two-storey house. The proposal is to erect a 15-metre mast outside. In context, that is the height of four double-decker buses stacked on top of one another. The cabinets that go alongside them are as tall as a standing adult. These are huge installations on residential streets, on cul-de-sacs, and on corners where people live. People are quite rightly concerned about the impact of that.

Cost of Living and Food Insecurity

Debate between Jim McMahon and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 8th February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the clear points that he is making. In Northern Ireland, 13% of people—241,000 people—are in poverty, with 17% of children and 14% of pensioners in poverty. With the 5% increase that the chief executive officer of Tesco said yesterday would happen to food prices, those in poverty are unfortunately facing a perfect storm that will mean they are in even worse poverty. Does the hon. Member agree that, for those reasons, this Labour motion should be supported?

[Jim McMahon]

I thank the hon. Member so much for that. Northern Ireland is a beautiful part of the world, but that is partly because it is so sparsely populated and rural. On top of the premium related to poverty, there is also a rural premium, where many energy-efficient homes are more expensive to heat and, in many cases, gas oil has to be transported in rather than piped in. That has a significant premium that is felt acutely by many communities.

Co-operative and Mutual Businesses

Debate between Jim McMahon and Jim Shannon

Thursday 27th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my honourable colleague for that intervention. I am sure that the Minister is listening and hope that he will take on board that suggestion, which could be very helpful. I wholeheartedly support that suggestion. This is not the Minister’s responsibility, but I have had discussions with other Ministers about help with high street rates.

It should be borne in mind that credit unions are for their members. The members invest their money to lend their money. It is a fantastic opportunity, and a fantastic example of how lending should be looked upon. The big banks should note that example. It should not be all about dividends for shareholders; it should be about the customers—those who are involved.

The Northern Ireland movement is massive in comparison with its counterparts in Great Britain. Statistics collated by the Bank of England in each quarter show the scale of credit unions in Northern Ireland in comparison with that of their counterparts in the rest of the United Kingdom. Of the 437 registered credit unions in the UK, 145 are located in Northern Ireland. A third of all adult credit union members in the UK are in Northern Ireland, and four in 10 juvenile members are from Northern Ireland. We are encouraging our young people to open accounts early—although, to be fair, that will probably be done by their parents or, perhaps, by their grandparents, who open accounts for them to start them off. It is good to encourage young people to be part of a bank, to save money, and thereby to see the benefits of credit unions. As I have said, it is a fantastic opportunity. If Members have not had an opportunity to investigate or gain knowledge of what is happening in Northern Ireland, I suggest that they should.

[Jim McMahon]

I had the pleasure of being in Belfast over the weekend for a Co-operative party event organised by Tony McMullen, a fantastic advocate for co-operatives. The party has published a manifesto for co-operatives in Northern Ireland. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will read it and convey to the UK Government what we might take from Northern Ireland’s leadership in this regard.

[Jim Shannon]

I should be more than happy to do that. I read in the paper that the hon. Gentleman was the guest speaker at that event.

Our credit unions are clearly punching well above their weight, as so often happens in Northern Ireland. This is yet another example of what we do well there. I know from experience in virtually every corner of my constituency how vital credit unions are in helping some of the most marginalised in our society to save their money and borrow at very competitive rates. As was pointed out by the hon. Member for Harrow West, they have often filled the gap left by bank closures. They filled that gap when banks closed in Newtownards, and they filled it by opening a brand-new office in Kircubbin on the Ards peninsula—where there had previously been a branch of the Danske Bank—to supplement the branch in Portaferry.

Credit unions fill the gap on many occasions, and have a great interest in the community. A recent article in the Financial Times recognised the role that they play in our community beyond simply lending money and providing facilities for saving, explaining how they can and do help to squeeze out loan sharks, who cause a great many problems in Northern Ireland. They lend money and then take exorbitant interest rates from the backs of people. They are a scourge on society, including my Strangford constituency. They prey on the most vulnerable among us, and have ruined countless lives. I want to place on record my thanks to the credit unions throughout the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland whose service is helping many to break away from the grip of criminal moneylenders.

Despite the apparent strength of loan sharks, however, there are still significant opportunities in credit unions in Northern Ireland. Again, I agree with the motion: we must look to Her Majesty’s Government to work with the credit union movement, and the co-operative and mutual sector as a whole, to fulfil that untapped potential. More can be done with a little help. We have heard two suggestions in interventions, and other ideas are being presented.

The regulation of Northern Ireland’s credit unions moved from Stormont to the Financial Conduct Authority in 2016. I ask the Minister to engage with the credit unions in Northern Ireland—and, indeed, throughout the United Kingdom—and to help them to, in turn, work with the FCA to help them to grow further, and, furthermore, to help us to deal with problems such as financial exclusion.

Let me say in conclusion—and I realise, Madam Deputy Speaker, when I hear that cough I must take note of it—that there is an increasing desire across our nation for a different growth model for our economy. The hon. Member for Stroud referred to an alternative. We need a good alternative that can be successful, and this is the one: one in which the interests of workers and people are not overlooked, but rather are to the fore; one in which there is a greater sense of partnership between all the actors in our economy. Co-operatives and mutuals are already an incredibly important part of our economy, and they can be greater still. Northern Ireland is an example of their importance. I join Members in all parts of the House in recognising their existing contribution, and calling on the Government—and the Minister in particular—to work with the sector and help it to grow even more and benefit more people.

Bus Services: Greater Manchester

Debate between Jim McMahon and Jim Shannon

Monday 4th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jim McMahon]

That is a really important point. By and large, someone living within 5 miles of Manchester city centre on a main road will probably get a reasonable bus service, and there will be quite a lot of competition for it. But for someone who lives off a main road, on an estate, the chances are that their route has been cut or cancelled completely. For many people—particularly those who live on estates on steep gradients—that can mean that they are completely cut off from access to good bus services and do not leave the house. People have experienced that in Royton and parts of Chadderton where bus services have been taken away. I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention.

The current system unfortunately sees Greater Manchester in a clean air crisis, with pollution causing around 1,200 premature deaths a year. That is across all transport, not just buses, but it is important that we try to get people on to sustainable, environmentally-friendly transport, not just to get to work and college but to save lives.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. As I said to him before the debate, Translink has spent a substantial amount of money on new buses in my constituency. Those buses are environmentally friendly, but they are also disabled-friendly. It is so important that we give the opportunity of rural and urban bus travel to people who are not able to access normal buses. Does he see that as one of the things that the Government should pursue in his constituency?

[Jim McMahon]

Madam Deputy Speaker, I cannot tell you how reassuring it is in these crazy parliamentary times to have an intervention from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon); it gives a lot comfort. That is a really important point. Disabled people find it difficult to leave the house, and they have to contend with not only buses but, when they get off the bus, the shops, department stores and supermarkets that are not accessible. What we can do as a public service is ensure that public transport is accessible, to connect them as much as possible with our towns, city centres and villages. I appreciate that intervention.

As I have said before, we cannot address the clean air crisis if we do not address the bus crisis. Over the past 10 years, we have lost 32 million bus journeys every year in Greater Manchester. That is a staggering number of journeys being diverted. I should say, out of balance, that that is partly because there has been significant investment in our tram system, so some people will choose to use the tram rather than the bus network, but that still does not account for the 32 million. We have seen a significant shift, and too many people rely on their private cars to get to work because bus services just are not good enough.

As a result of commercial decisions or because bus subsidies have been cut due to local councils having their budgets cut—of course, subsidised routes are funded by council tax through the transport levy, so if the council budget is cut, transport naturally gets cut, too—many communities have seen routes reduced or cancelled completely, cutting off entire communities. Many older and vulnerable people are now isolated. At the same time, we have seen the cost of travel increase. Ticket fares have increased by over 55% above the rate of inflation in the same period. How can it be right that we are losing 32 million bus journeys a year, but the cost has increased by 55% over the rate of inflation? People are paying from both sides—through increased subsidies to operators and through poor services, and they are then charged on top of that. I pay credit to the Better Buses for Greater Manchester campaign, which provided that data.

Given the north-south divide in Greater Manchester, it is more expensive generally to travel across the city. If someone needs to make a bus journey that requires more than one operator, they have to use what is called a system one ticket, which is a multi-operator bus ticket. That costs £5.80 a day or £19 for a weekly ticket, often for people who are on the minimum wage and struggling to get by. We should compare that to what we pay for bus travel in London. Someone who needs to use multi-modal transport—say, the bus and the tram—will pay £9 a day or £38 a week. If we compare that with the same ticket in London, where someone wants to use a bus and the tube, they will pay £21.20. It is £38 in Greater Manchester, but £21.20 in London, so weekly tickets are more expensive—179% more expensive—in Greater Manchester than in London. Quite literally, passengers in Greater Manchester are being taken for a ride.

Greater Manchester Metrolink

Debate between Jim McMahon and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Jim McMahon]

Councillor Fender has been a real transport inspiration for many people in Greater Manchester. He is actually a very quiet and reserved character; he is not somebody who grandstands—who seeks attention. He works in the background and diligently gets on and does the work that is very complicated, often very technical, and requires a lot of time and dedication. I have absolutely no doubt that without the time that he put in to transport in Greater Manchester—not just the tram system but the bus network, and cycling routes especially—it would not be as advanced as it is. I think that is a very fitting tribute. I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.

Greater Manchester’s tram network opened in 1992 and is now the UK’s biggest light rail network. It is essential to Greater Manchester’s economy. We know how important transport is. It is important to get people from A to B, but it is also essential to do so efficiently, to make sure that we reduce congestion, that people can get to work affordably, and that there are routes that take people where they need to go for their employment or for leisure. People vote with their feet. The light rail system in Greater Manchester carries 41 million passengers every year. It covers 60 miles over 93 stops. However, as always in Greater Manchester, we are not content to stand still. We want to go even further.

At the moment a new line is being built to Trafford Park, and that will provide fantastic connectivity to one of Europe’s largest employment sites. People across Greater Manchester will be able to travel through the city centre and on to Trafford Park, and capitalise on the jobs that are being created there. That builds on the success of the airport line, which will take people to Manchester Airport, one of our enterprise zones—also essential for getting people to decent, well paid, secure jobs, particularly now, and in the future too.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am ever mindful that the Government have committed to reducing pollution levels massively in our cities. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a working, modern, technology-friendly public transport system is essential for Manchester and other cities like it, and that the expansion of services into the south will attract more people into using the service, making it more effective, and therefore cost-effective, and benefit the environment as well?

[Jim McMahon]

That is a very important point about the benefits for the environment and the economy. At one point, I was slightly fearful that we were going to make a claim for an extension over to Northern Ireland, which would be a great day out, but I might struggle to—

Universal Credit Sanctions

Debate between Jim McMahon and Jim Shannon

Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way at this late hour of the day, or this early hour of the morning—whatever it might be.

The issues that the hon. Gentleman is describing are United Kingdom-wide. A report from the Central England Law Centre shows that UC sanctions are three times greater than other sanctions. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is a worrying trend that affects all constituencies throughout the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Jim McMahon]

That is an important intervention. The Department for Work and Pensions’ own error statistics show that the error lies within the DWP. In 2016-17, claimant error was 1.8% and official error was 4.9%. When claimants are doing what is asked, the margin of error is marginal, so it is the official errors that are sending people into severe debt and often poverty, and, all too often, to the food bank.

Educational Attainment: Oldham

Debate between Jim McMahon and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 8th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)]

It feels odd to have an Adjournment debate on such an historic day for our country. I suspect we are in for a long period of scrutiny, review and challenge. It is also a very important day for me personally, as it is my son’s 15th birthday. He was the reason I came into politics and he amazes me every day.

“Oldham kids can be the best in the world and they can aim as high as they want.” That was the message from Baroness Estelle Morris on the launch of the Oldham Education and Skills Commission. For many years, we saw the fragmentation of education, with a diminishing role for the local education authority. In part, that led to a deferral of responsibility for education in academies and free schools at local level. The commission reviewed this in great detail and the message was simple: for education to be the best it must become everybody’s business. Regardless of the type of school they attend, they are our children, our future and our collective responsibility. Even with a complex system of education, there was a collective desire to see standards in Oldham improve. The town needed a joined-up plan—not many different plans that might conflict with each other, but a single vision for what the future could be. Critically, this included early years, primary, secondary, further and higher education, as well as lifelong learning.

When others talk about Oldham they do not always present an accurate picture of our education system. There are some problems, and we acknowledge them in an honest and open way, but there are also reasons to be proud of what has been achieved. Since 2012, Oldham has seen a positive improvement in the proportion of pupils reaching the expected standard—up from 51% to 76%. We accept fully that there is room for improvement, but it should be recognised that progress has been made. The number of primary schools judged good or outstanding has increased from 80% to 95% in just three years. Our secondary schools must do much better, but we should acknowledge that they too have seen an improvement, with the percentage of schools judged good or outstanding increasing from 22% to 62%.

I pay tribute to parents, students, teachers, governors and the local authority for the great strides that have been made, but I am unrelenting in my ambition for that positive experience to be available to all young people in Oldham, not just the lucky ones. All our young people must be given the best possible start in life, a life which will be better but more complicated than ever before. The world is more complicated than ever before. It will be challenging for them to be in an ultra-competitive environment. They will have to be the best they can be.

The Oldham Education and Skills Commission proposed 19 recommendations that would form the foundation of the vision for a “self-improving education system”. It also brought forward two local performance indicators, which sought to meet the ambition for all young people to get on in life and do well. The first was that all national performance indicators be met at the national average or beyond by 2020. The second was that all Oldham education providers be judged as “good” or “outstanding” by Ofsted by 2020. I am sure the Minister would concur with that ambition. The commission outlined its vision in detail in a report published in 2016, and I know that the Minister has taken the time to read it. I greatly appreciate the time he spent doing that and meeting me and my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams). We discussed in that meeting how we could work together on this.

The Minister will be aware that the Government have selected Oldham, along with five other towns, to be an opportunity area for social inclusion, meaning that it will share the £60 million that has been allocated. I want to be fair and balanced, because education in Oldham is so important that I am not willing to create artificial political dividing lines, if we can work together positively. However, as you would expect, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will be challenging those concerned where I think a decision has been made that runs counter to the interests of young people in Oldham. I hope that with that mature relationship we can work across parties to achieve our aim.

For Oldham to do well in a sustained way, it must have the strongest possible foundations on which to build. That means clear leadership, adequate resourcing and collective responsibility—and of course that goes beyond individual schools.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I know that this debate is about Oldham, but this issue applies across the whole of the United Kingdom. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that educational attainment must incorporate not simply grades in academic subjects, but vocational skills, such as mechanics and joinery, and that schools must support those skills of a practical nature so that, whatever their vocation in life, young people are prepared?

[Jim McMahon]

I absolutely concur. I was an apprentice myself. It gave me the chance of a career and options that I did not have when I was going through the schools system. For a lot of working class kids in particular, a technical vocation means that they can live a decent life with a well-paid job.

As we are clear in our vision for what the town can be, we must also be clear about what our town should not be. Over the last two weeks alone, we have seen the removal of a free school sponsor and, this week, the closure of the university technical college. Every school and college will see a cut to its core budget, and in many places the facilities are simply not fit for modern learning, let alone an inspiring environment fit for our young people. We are left hanging while we wait for the delayed area based review, which has left many colleges in the area not knowing what the future will be. We have not had a meaningful discussion about the future and introduction of new independent faith schools for the town either. We are also left with many unanswered questions about the failure of the Collective Spirit free school and the closure of the £9 million UTC, where not a single child gained the required GCSE results.

I commend the inclusive approach from the regional schools commissioner, but the sheer scale of the challenge is huge and the resources limited. As Vicky Beer moves on to pastures new, there is concern about whether the new commissioner will make the same effort to reach out to local MPs.

There are still many unanswered questions about the financial practices at the Collective Spirit free school, and they need to be answered, not just for sake of the school and the town, but because it might expose more fundamental weaknesses in the academy and free schools system. For a period, the school’s director was also the sole director of a trading company that provided services to that school and another one in Manchester. Collectively, it invoiced for £500,000 of services. Rules from the Department for Education and the Education Funding Agency allow connected party transactions, providing they are provided at cost.

The problem is that, providing the contractor can prove that every penny invoiced was spent, the EFA seems happy to sign it off as within scope. It does not account, however, for where the money eventually goes. For example, a school could trade to a company behind which another company with the same directors is invoicing to get the money out the door. Technically, that meets the criteria—that these limited trading companies should offer an at-cost provision—but it does not tell us how £500,000 of public money has been spent by a relatively small school.

We have asked the questions. I submitted a dossier to the regional schools commissioner last year. That came to me as a result of the bravery of whistleblowers—people who were involved in the school and were concerned about the financial practices going on there and wanted to expose them. I understand that the EFA carried out a review, but it has not been made public, and there is nothing on the website to say what the conclusion was. The public have no way of knowing, either from the EFA, the school website or Companies House which individuals and which companies benefited from those contracts.

No breakdown has been provided, and I suspect that that problem is not limited to this school alone; it is potentially a much wider problem. So today, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), I have written to the National Audit Office in order to provide confidence that the money invoiced into those trading companies was spent on the education of the young people attending the school. When I mention a breakdown, I do not mean just a breakdown of service headings provided at the school; what we want to know is whether invoices can be provided that demonstrate that those services were provided, whether the invoices related to another company and whether connected parties were involved.

My question is this: in the interests of getting the best deal for taxpayers, will the Minister lend his support to ensuring that this review is carried out in a full and meaningful way, and that its results will be published so that the public can make up their own minds? That will lead to one of two things. Either it will prove that the whistleblowers were right and that financial practices were taking place that were not in the interests of the young people at the school; or it will prove that everything was above board, the school adhered to the rules and the money was spent appropriately. It will provide the opportunity to set the record straight, irrespective of what the result of the review turns out to be.

We have talked about the Education and Skills Commission, the issue of the Collective Spirit free school and the information that is still outstanding, so let us now move on quickly to the university technical college. This was a flagship college, with £9 million of public money spent on it. Oldham college gifted land to enable it to happen. I absolutely agree with the principle of wanting to look at things differently and try out new ideas. However, it is not acceptable that the young people who were students there have left school without the required qualifications, thus not achieving their full potential. Again, therefore, I ask the Minister for his support to make sure that if young people have been let down and have not reached their full potential—I must say that the local authorities have been extremely supportive in this matter—they are supported to re-sit their exams.

I also ask the Minister formally to sign up to the efforts and recommendations of the Oldham Education and Skills Commission. That is necessary because there is a danger, as we have seen with the free school and the UTC, of the opportunity area becoming a one-size-fits-all, centrally dictated model that is imposed on Oldham because it shows up as an area that needs intervention. If that happens out of context, and not in line with the Education and Skills Commission findings, it will really be a missed opportunity that will not reflect the significant work that has already taken place, and it will not ensure that the money already provided is used to best effect.

My strong view is that the teaching professionals, the parents, the students and the local authority can, by working together, regardless of the structure of the schools involved, genuinely transform educational outcomes for young people in Oldham, provided that they do so as part of a single plan, instead of through contradictory plans.

I also ask for the area-based review of education to be concluded and, importantly, that a democratic vote takes place in each of the local authorities involved. There is concern that the pressure is coming from central Government, and that the decision will be made by the combined authority before the mayoral elections. At the moment, the combined authority is not a directly elected body, and it is important that those who are elected by their communities have a say on the area-based review, especially if it means fundamental changes to Oldham College.

I ask that current funding arrangements, the review and the consultation take into account areas of high deprivation, particular areas with high in-migration and where a high number of youngsters and parents have English as a second language. We know that that requires additional support. I ask, too, that the former UTC building be transferred to Oldham College, to support the ageing campus on Rochdale Road and benefit Oldham College students. It cost a significant amount of public money, and could still be used to benefit Oldham children. I think that Oldham College is best placed to provide education from that building.

We should not allow a UTC to fail, thus preventing children from realising their potential, without fully understanding the reasons for that failure. I ask the Government to review the project and publish the lessons that could be learned, in order to ensure that the same thing does not happen again. I repeat my call for a review of the performance of Collective Spirit free school, and of the due diligence that was exercised in the selection of the sponsor. However, it is even more important for the financial concerns expressed by whistleblowers to be addressed in a public report.

Finally—a word that Members may be pleased to hear—I ask the Minister to consider the devolution of education to Greater Manchester. The move away from local education authorities has been detrimental to education standards in my town. When there is local control, people know where to go to get answers if schools are not performing well, and when they come together and support each other, it is like a family relationship. We are not seeing that now. What we are seeing is a fragmentation of education, which I do not believe is in the interests of the people of Oldham.

Devolution to Greater Manchester would provide a potential framework for a compromise—not a return to a local education authority arrangement that the Government clearly do not support, but a new model involving a combined authority with a directly elected Mayor. My view is really quite simple. If we trust the combined authority and the new Mayor from May onwards to get on with running the health service and social care, justice, policing, fire, transport and housing, we ought to trust them to get on with sorting out the education system in Greater Manchester. If we could do that, we could teem and ladle skills across Greater Manchester, so that areas in need of that support and capacity at local level could realise their full potential.

What I have said is not intended to be an overt criticism of the Government, although there may be differences between us. I want the Minister to take on board that there are local Members of Parliament who care passionately about Oldham and want to invest time and education to ensure that it can be the best that it can be, while also recognising that we may have to meet in the middle.