National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Debate between James Murray and Gavin Williamson

Consideration of Lords amendments
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[James Murray]

I am very aware of the fact that we inherited an economy and a fiscal situation in a mess. That was completely unsustainable, and it was our duty as a Government to address it. No responsible Government could have let things carry on as they were, with the fiscal situation the way it was. That is why we took the action we did.

[Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[James Murray]

I will not, as I have already given way several times and must make progress.

We had to take those decisions to put the fiscal responsibility back at the heart of government, to return economic stability to the public finances, and to have the basis for the investment on which we can grow the economy and put more money in people’s pockets.

Lords amendments 1, 4, 5, 9 and 13 relate to the NHS and social care providers. The amendments seek to maintain the employer national insurance contribution rates and thresholds at their current level for NHS-commissioned services, including GPs, dentists, social care providers and pharmacists, as well as those providing hospice care. As Members of both Houses will know, as a result of the measures in this Bill and wider Budget measures, the NHS will receive an extra £22.6 billion over two years, helping to deliver an additional 40,000 elective appointments every week.

Primary care providers—general practice, dentistry, pharmacy and eye care—are important independent contractors that provide nearly £20 billion-worth of NHS services. Every year, the Government consult the general practice and pharmacy sectors.

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[James Murray]

The various organisations or services that I am talking about, whether GPs, pharmacies or organisations that provide social care, receive money from Government, and the way that those discussions take place is by considering pressures on the providers of those services in the round—that is the way the negotiations take place. Direct support for employer national insurance contributions obviously applies to central Government, local government and public corporations, which is much the same way that the previous Government approached things under the health and social care levy. Pressures on social care or GPs, as I have been outlining, are considered in the round in terms of their funding settlements, and as I said, the £880 million of new grant funding can be used to address a range of pressures facing adult social care.

[Sir Gavin Williamson]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, but let us look at children’s hospices, which will be down £4.9 million. Most funding for children’s hospices does not come from the Government; it comes from communities and from people supporting them. Can the Minister, at the Dispatch Box, assure children’s hospices such as Acorns in the west midlands that they will not be down the money that they will be losing through extra NI contributions, and that that £4.9 million will be replaced by the Government for children’s hospices?

[James Murray]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for mentioning hospices, and perhaps I may set out the Government’s position on hospices and some of today’s amendments. The Government recognise the vital role that hospices play in supporting people at the end of life, and their families, and they also recognise the range of cost pressures that the hospice sector has been facing over a number of years. We are supporting the hospice sector with a £100 million increase for adult and children’s hospices, to ensure that they have the best physical environment for care, and £26 million of revenue to support hospices for children and young people. The £100 million will go towards helping hospices to improve their buildings, equipment and accommodation, to ensure that patients continue to receive the best possible care.

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[James Murray]

The £100 million that the right hon. Gentleman alluded to is important funding to help hospices improve their buildings, equipment and accommodation, to ensure that patients receive the best care possible. As I said a few moments ago, there will be £26 million of revenue to support children and young people’s hospices. More widely, the Government provide for charities, including hospices, through the wider tax regime, which is among the most generous in the world. That included tax reliefs for charities and their donors worth just over £6 billion for the tax year to April 2024. Finally, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, all charities, including hospices that are set up as charities, can benefit from the employment allowance that the Bill more than doubles, from £5,000 to £10,500. That will benefit charities of all sizes, particularly the smallest.

[Sir Gavin Williamson]

The Minister knows that that is funding for one year, and mainly for buildings, as he has admitted. This will be a cost on hospices every single year going forward. It will be cumulative and mean that hospices have to ask their communities for more and more, just to give that basic help. Will he commit to funding children’s hospices by the £4.9 million that the Government are taking off them every year, or not—yes or no?

[James Murray]

The points I was making before I gave way to the right hon. Gentleman are recurrent features of the tax system. The support through the tax regime for charities and their donors, which was worth more than £6 billion in April 2024, is a feature of the system that happens every year. The increase in the employment allowance from £5,000 to £10,500, which will benefit hospices that are set up as charities, is a permanent change that we are making through the Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Murray and Gavin Williamson

Tuesday 21st January 2025 Commons Chamber

[James Murray]

As I have set out, the UK CBAM will mitigate the risk of carbon leakage by placing a carbon price on some of the most emissions-intensive industrial goods imported into the UK, including in the iron and steel sector. The UK CBAM is designed for the UK context, and in some areas, its emissions scope is wider than the EU CBAM—in respect of indirect emissions, for instance. The first CBAM industry working group was held earlier this week, and I understand that a representative of the UK steel sector attended. I will make sure that my officials continue to engage with the industry sectors most affected, and I am very happy to discuss this further with my hon. Friend.

[Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)]

Heavy industry, whether it is steel, ceramics or so many other areas, is totally dependent on low energy costs. The trajectory is that energy costs are rising, especially in industry, whether as a result of regulation or world markets. Many other countries are doing more to protect their heavy industries by making sure they can have low input costs for energy. What more can the Minister do to protect our heavy industry in the future?

[James Murray]

The No. 1 thing for industry and households is to bring down the cost of energy. That is why we are investing in renewable home-grown energy for the future, to make sure we have energy independence, energy security and, crucially, lower bills for those households and businesses.

Farming and Inheritance Tax

Debate between James Murray and Gavin Williamson

Wednesday 4th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman has made an important point, but analysis will show that over a 10-year period, 99% of the profit from the average 350-acre arable farm owned by a couple will go back towards paying inheritance tax. That does not leave enough money for them either to invest or to live. I wonder how the hon. Gentleman thinks they can deal with that.

[James Murray]

I have confidence in the way in which we have calibrated the policy. As I said to the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen), it has balanced the need to retain significant, generous provision of inheritance tax relief for family farms with ensuring that, at the same time, we fix the public finances in the fairest way possible.