Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 2nd December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I cannot help saying to the Lord President of the Council that my grandfather was a founder member of Paisley Rotary club. The question from the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) is really important in Paisley, as was the right hon. Gentleman’s answer.

I call Mr Liddell-Grainger.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

I hope I did not point my finger the wrong way just then, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The Government did not listen to the referendum in Somerset over unitary, and they did not listen to the districts when they held their own referendum, but I am delighted to say that they have now said that the elections for Somerset will take place next year. My right hon. Friend knows how important democracy is, as we all do. Putting those elections off would have been absolutely appalling, so I am delighted. Could we have a debate in Government time on the wonders of democracy, what it means to all of us and how important it is across the world, including—dare I say it—to the Commonwealth and others?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

It is a delight that my hon. Friend is happy. I thought it was quite something when the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) was happy, but if my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger) is also happy, it is clearly getting close to Christmas. I would say to him that every sitting we have in this Chamber is a celebration of democracy and the ability to use freedom of speech to express what we want to say, stand up for our constituents and seek redress of grievance. Every day, we do it; we should carry on doing it, and we should celebrate it.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 18th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

One could never accuse the hon. Gentleman of being knowingly understated. We have had “disaster”, “sorry saga”, “rotten”, “sleaze”, “corruption”, “huge public concern” and “dramatic” all in about a minute. I do wonder whether he is capable of lowering the tone even further than he normally does, or of lowering the temperature and raising the tone at the same point.

It is so absurdly overstated; we have spent quite enough time discussing ourselves in this House in the last 10 days or so. For example, I return to the Finance Bill. It is a bit of a concern that when we have a debate that could go to any hour on something that affects the livelihoods of every single one of our constituents, the Opposition are too idle to turn up, but when we are talking about ourselves, they want even more time to focus a little bit more on our own concerns. On the idea that there is this huge public concern about the House of Lords, well, the hon. Gentleman must move in very different circles from those in North East Somerset, because the number of letters that I receive on House of Lords reform can be counted in single digits most years.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend and I are great advocates of the power of the people, because the voice of the people is the voice of God. I say to him—because we both come from the heart of what made Britain as we now know it—that we need elections in Somerset. There is discussion that the local authority now wants all elections put back to 2023, which would be six years since we have had an election in the county that we both love. That is not acceptable. There are severe concerns from all political parties, including my own, that this should not happen again. It is not good for democracy. Gag the people, they will come back at us. Therefore, I ask for time in this place to debate the ability to have elections when we should be having them, because, as I said before, the voice of the people is the voice of God.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Vox populi, vox Dei, as my hon. Friend says. It is obviously important that there should be local accountability and elections, but sometimes when there is significant upheaval in local government, elections are postponed until the new body has settled down. It is all a question of getting the balance right.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 21st October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman is becoming an advocate for the levelling-up campaign, which is about helping people. Yes, it is about health, but it is also about improving skills so that people have a chance to get better, higher-skilled jobs so that they are able to be more prosperous. It is about the towns fund, which ensures that towns that have been left behind have the opportunity to do better. It is about the money that is being spent in the NHS to ensure that the backlog that has come about because of covid is dealt with. Levelling up is about ensuring that all the effort of the Government, the spending of taxpayers’ money, is directed towards ensuring that those who have been left behind have an opportunity to do as well as everybody else.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

As my right hon. Friend knows, there is one way into west Somerset and one way out. That road has been completely blocked for the past couple of weeks due to work that had to be done. It was an absolute shambles. The signage was wrong and everything went wrong. Unfortunately, we need time in this place to ensure that, where major diversions have to be put in place, the statutory obligations of Highways England are carried out. To put it in context, if Alfred had had this problem he would still be stuck on the levels and would have been diverted via Edinburgh. Can we please have time to discuss this matter?

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 16th September 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising this important issue and I wish Sara well. The campaign is an important one. I will pass on the hon. Lady’s comments to the Health Secretary. The question of compulsory medication is always a difficult and sensitive one, so it is not an issue that is easy to answer straightforwardly.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

Britain’s greatest king is spinning in his grave at the moment due to the appalling abuse of democracy when the unitary announcement came. It has been an absolute bombshell in Somerset, as my right hon. Friend knows. Paul Rowsell, the civil servant, has now agreed that we will get only about 80 councillors. Apparently, part of the reason, according to people, is that the leader of the council wishes to be paid the same as a Member of Parliament and he wants the councillors to be paid between £55,000 and £60,000 a year. Can we please have a debate in this place on local government? I know that there are changes in the Cabinet. It is a good time to do that and it is right that we should do so.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 15th July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

It would be wrong of me to tell the BBC how to run its commercial operations, but I will say this. In Somerset, we are lucky enough to have “Points West”, and I remember being told by it that its early evening programme is better watched, proportionally for the region, than “Eastenders”, which I understand is a popular soap opera that some people enjoy watching. It seems to me that if there is a really popular, well-watched programme, it is quite wise and commercially sensible to invest resources in it, but as I say, it is not for me to give the BBC advice on how to run itself.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

May I join my right hon. Friend in congratulating Somerset’s son, from the finest county in Britain, on making it to the English football team and doing quite so well?

My right hon. Friend has been very helpful in chasing Ministers about an answer on the local government consultation in Somerset. Unfortunately, the Government still refuse to tell us how many people in their consultation supported One Somerset and how many backed the council plan. I really cannot understand why—it is not secret. We know that 5,000 people filled in the questionnaire, which is somewhat pathetic given that 111,000 took part in the referendum, but surely honesty is the best policy. I am reminded of the English writer Samuel Johnson, who said:

“Where secrecy or mystery begins, vice or roguery is not far off.”

Can we have a debate?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The great Dr Johnson said so many fantastic things. The pages of “The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations” are full of his bon mots. I am not allowed a prop, but I were to bring in to the Chamber my very well-thumbed copy of “The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations”, you would see, Mr Speaker, that the pages around Dr Johnson are particularly well thumbed.

I will always try to facilitate answers being given to Members, but I suggest that if my hon. Friend wants a detailed, specific answer, written questions are a very good way of getting one, because Ministers are obliged to give at least as much information in a written answer as would be given under a freedom of information request, and they are expected to do it faster.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

2nd reading & 3rd reading
Thursday 1st July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I think the hon. Lady’s fox was shot some time ago, because my right hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matt Hancock) is the former Health Secretary, and the word “former” is quite an important one. We have had references to association football, and my right hon. Friend has been replaced by the super-sub—the Jack Grealish of politics—in the form of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), the new Secretary of State, who has come on with great effect and great panache.

The hon. Lady challenges me on what I said about the great genius of the former Secretary of State. I stick by that because he worked incredibly hard for 15 months. If I may resort to Dryden once again, the hon. Lady will know:

“Great wits are sure to madness near allied,

And thin partitions do their bounds divide.”

Unfortunately, my right hon. Friend made a grave mistake, for which, because the rules are enforced fairly, he resigned. He resigned the day after the story was printed in the newspapers. Here we get the splitting of hairs between the resignation and the sacking. The man has gone. He has lost his job, as has the non-executive director in the Department of Health and Social Care with whom he seems to be closely associated. That is quite the right way for it to have happened. My right hon. Friend is no longer in office.

The hon. Lady complains about procurement, but that is not what the Opposition were saying a year ago, when they specifically asked the Government whether we would

“now commit to provide local public health services and Public Health England with ‘whatever it needs’ to build up the test, trace and isolate regime so obviously needed”.

The Opposition made a strong demand that that should take place very quickly. Of course, it was done quickly. What did the Opposition do? They very helpfully set out 10 proposals for the Government, and No. 3 was:

“Test, test, test. For testing to be effective, Government should provide capacity for widespread, regular community testing. Everyone showing symptoms should be able to access a test within 24 hours.”

On and on they went, asking the Government to do exactly what the Government were doing, but now, a year later, they complain that we did it quickly. What did they want? Did they want us to do it with torpor, inactivity and idleness? Well, we would not have got very far with it if we had. Last year they said we should do whatever it takes, but this year they say that doing whatever it takes was wrong. There is a word for that, Mr Speaker, but it is not parliamentary, so I will not use it. It was quite right of the Opposition to ask for what they did a year ago. It was right for the Government to do it and it had to be done at speed.

I am delighted that the hon. Lady wants to spread joy. As we all know, joy cometh in the morning and this morning is a morning of joy for us all. She asks about remaining matches. Now, I do not know the specific plans for football, but I can inform the House about the plans for anyone intending to go to the match between England and Pakistan at Lord’s, a one-day match on 10 July, which I will be going to. I got the circular from the MCC—the Marylebone Cricket Club—yesterday. One will be required to show either that one has been double vaccinated within a fortnight or that one has had a recent test, so there are procedures in place. This is one of the test events—it is actually a one-day match, not a Test, Mr Speaker, but you get the point—where things will be carefully kept in order to ensure the safety of people going there.

The hon. Lady thanks the Government for bringing forward the duties for the steelworkers. I am grateful for her thanks and support for the robust action the Government have taken. That is being done quite properly in the right way to ensure that the steel industry is protected where it needs to be.

Then we get into an obscure argument about the Westminster bubble. It is unquestionably true that there are some issues which this House is beset by. I think that deciding how many angels dance on the pinhead of a resignation or a sacking is one of those and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was right to say so yesterday.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

Good morning, Mr Speaker. Two weeks ago, my right hon. Friend promised to chase up local government Ministers for failing to answer my questions about the consultation in Somerset. I know he has chased them and I do thank him enormously for that, but I am beginning to understand why the Ministry and the Government kept this a secret. The results of the survey attracted only 5,000 responses—a pathetic 1% of the Somerset population—but 111,000 people cast their votes in the referendum organised by the district councils and a huge majority voted in favour of the two unitaries. This referendum cannot be ignored by Ministers because of democracy and legality. They will damage themselves if they do. This deserves a debate in Government time to be able to talk about the land of King Arthur and what a marvellous honourable people they are.

[Mr Speaker]

Let’s be on the level on this one then.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 17th June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Once again, I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising this issue. The reason that it has taken so long is that it is not an easy one to determine. It is very hard to know with any certainty how long life will last, and that problem is difficult for a system to deal with. The uncertainty makes it problematic to find a good solution, whereas everybody wants a system that is sympathetic to those in their final weeks and months. I will take this up once again with the Department, but it is not torpor that means that there has been no full response; it is simply the complexity of the issue.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

My right hon. Friend knows, as we all do, about the patience of King Alfred: he had to wait 25 years before the Danes stopped bothering us. I sincerely hope that Ministers will take less time to answer my questions about official consultation on local government reform in Somerset. Two months ago, I asked a series of parliamentary questions on how many responses were received and how many genuine Somerset residents took part in the Government’s consultation. Since then there has been silence. This is rather strange. The district council has just held a full and fair independent referendum. Two thirds of registered electors supported its plan. All the figures are public and were sent straight to the Secretary of State. Why do the Government’s own consultation results remain secret? King Alfred would not stand for it and neither should we. Can we have a debate in this House as to what on earth is going on in local government?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I understand that there were some problems with the district council’s website, which did not have entirely the desired effect, and it caused some considerable and understandable distress to people who were linked to a website of ill-repute. There are questions to be raised about that. However, with regard to hon. and right hon. Members not receiving responses to written parliamentary questions, it is part of my job to chase that up, and I will do so for my hon. Friend.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 22nd April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Let’s have the love-in with Ian Liddell-Grainger.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. My right hon. Friend and I are both committed democrats who believe that the voice of the people always deserves to be heard. In the Somerset County Council area, there will soon be a referendum to test public opinion about the rival plans for local government reform. I think my right hon. Friend and I would prefer that it were the whole of Somerset, but that is beyond the power of the council. The Secretary of State, by letter, said that this is a distraction, but I believe he is quite wrong. Elections to the county council have been shelved, and I am afraid the Government’s consultation was cheap, unfair and totally indifferent to the views of the residents. The chance to vote is now vital, and the Government ought to listen very carefully to the result before making any decision. Lawyers are spoiling for a fight about this, but democracy is an issue that cries out to be debated as soon as it can in this House first.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Vox populi, vox dei, but I refer my hon. Friend to what I said last week: it does not include the whole county of Somerset, and I think that is a great mistake. Somerset’s history goes back into the mists of time. It is one of the oldest counties in the country. As a whole, it is a complete, entire, perfect county that was cut up by Ted Heath in the 1970s to the disadvantage of people across the whole county. I would like to see the whole thing put back together. If only we could have the expertise of Humpty Dumpty.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 15th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman, as so often, raises important constituency issues that will have a wider effect for other people across the United Kingdom. I will certainly take this up with the DWP. His request sounds to be an eminently reasonable one. This is a compensation payment from a Government that would be treated differently if it were from Her Majesty’s Government in the UK rather than Her Majesty’s Government in Australia.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

My right hon. Friend and I share an enormous respect and affection for the great King Alfred, who defeated the Vikings against all the odds. Does he agree that victory would never have been possible without a good deal of local support, and that the only way to provide local support is through a proper referendum in which the votes are counted, and not through a cheapskate survey to which anyone anywhere in the world can contribute? Somerset local government’s future should never be decided by the toss of a coin in a Minister’s office or, dare I say, by a dodgy consultation. What is the hurry? The people need to be heard first, and woe betide anyone who takes Somerset for granted and ignores its people’s verdict or their voice. Could we please have an urgent debate on this?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend is, of course, right to say that King Alfred pulled together the ealdormen of Somerset, Hampshire and Wiltshire to defeat Guthrum. It was a coming together and it was done from the Somerset levels, where he famously but probably apocryphally burned cakes as he was considering how he would deal with the problem. I know that the matter my hon. Friend raises is being carefully considered by my right hon Friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, who has excellent judgment and believes in our great county, which is one of the oldest counties in the country, with an unbroken historic tradition. What would concern me personally about any referendum is that it would deal with only a part of the county and not with the whole of the county, and it would therefore not necessarily be the coming together that my hon. Friend is talking about.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 28th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Thinking of Alfred the Great, let us go to Ian Liddell-Grainger.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

Mr Speaker, thank you. I was worried to hear that some of our colleagues do not realise that Somerset is God’s county.

My right hon. Friend will remember that the Vikings were very pleased to get other people’s money. They begged it, borrowed it, stole it, buried it. Unfortunately, that is what has been happening in the county council: it has been hoarding the covid grants. It thought it had been given £32 million, as it said publicly. It turns out that the accountants tell it that it has been given £80 million, which is what it should be using for covid. We want to know what has happened to the money, and we want to see the proof.

Unfortunately, this county council wants to become a unitary, which is going to be disastrous for the people of Somerset. We need a full-county solution and we need a debate. King Alfred and I would love such a debate, and I wonder if my right hon. Friend will be so kind as to give it to us both.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend, as always, raises an important point. I am delighted to hear that the council has found more money. It sounds rather like the card in Monopoly that says, “Banking error in your favour”, which very rarely seems to happen in real life, but clearly has happened in Somerset.

I have indeed received communications from the county council about what it calls its “One Somerset” proposal. The problem with this is that it does not include the whole of Somerset—it leaves out both North Somerset, and Bath and North East Somerset—and it is always an irritation when people pretend to represent the whole great county of Somerset when they are only representing a part of it.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 21st January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I do not think the hon. Gentleman should use the second session of business to place the question he wishes he had asked in the first session of business, so I will come to the Backbench Business issues. There is always pressure on time, and it is a difficult balance. The debate on Holocaust Memorial Day is of fundamental importance. The Backbench Business Committee has of course decided to have two debates on that day, and that was a matter for it.

There are complications. I did my best today to protect time for Back-Bench business by discouraging my ministerial colleagues from making extra statements, including one from the Department of Health and Social Care, which then got an urgent question. It is not entirely under my control; it is between Mr Speaker, the Leader of the House’s office and what Back Benchers ask for as to how time will be divided up, so I encourage the hon. Gentleman to lobby not just me but others who have influence in this area.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

A couple of weeks ago I told the Prime Minister that Somerset County Council is misusing covid funds and that it had a moral duty to ring-fence the money. He did not disagree. The council—surprise, surprise—denied everything, but yesterday it renamed the reserve fund where the cash has been hidden so that it is now called the “covid reserve fund”. Somerset does not trust Somerset County Council. Even its own experts cannot work out how much money it has been given—£32 million, £43 million or £60 million. We must see how the money is spent. We need a debate in the House. As the great King Alfred would have said:

“Ring out the narrowing lust of gold”,

and:

“Ring in the love of truth and right”.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Alfred the Great was, of course, a great educator and translator of works into English, to ensure a wider spread of appreciation of knowledge across his kingdom, and my hon. Friend is also seeking to increase knowledge across the kingdom. His point on the use of public funds is one of continuing importance in this House, which has always had a responsibility to ensure that taxpayers’ money is well spent and that any money that is spent is audited and has an audit trail. Therefore, he is right to highlight this issue, and I hope that Somerset County Council will provide him with the answers he needs.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 14th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

My right hon. Friend and I agree about the risk of paying danegeld to anybody, but Somerset County Council was given £32 million to fight covid and the Vikings in charge of the council have stashed £10 million away to spend on whatever they fancy. They have even bankrolled a fund for the car parks and financed publicity for their “One Somerset” half-baked unitary plan, even though we are facing a public health disaster down here. Local government reform must be shelved now and all covid grants must be ring-fenced to be spent on covid. Somerset’s Vikings have to be stopped. Let us bring to bear the spirit of King Arthur—I mean King Alfred—and have a debate on this subject immediately.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

King Arthur is a bit before my time, so I am glad we are not going to dwell on the once and future king.

My hon. Friend is right to hold to account all public bodies that spend taxpayers’ money. Taxpayers’ money should not, as a general rule, be spent on the propaganda of the political interests on any individual council, so he is right to hold the council to account for that. I think it is important that the Government work through existing local authorities during this pandemic to deliver the policy needed to help people locally, and that needs to be done while, at the same time, watching carefully over how taxpayers’ money is spent.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 17th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Let us head to the home of Alfred the Great, with Ian Liddell-Grainger.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

Good morning, Mr Speaker.

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree that the misuse of public funds is tantamount to theft. Somerset County Council is squandering public money to promote this ghastly nightmare plan for a single unitary authority. The latest lunacy, believe it or not, is a glossy full-page newspaper advert full of lies, but the scandal is that we have to pay for it. The leadership are behaving like Danish Vikings, pillaging the public purse. They have even used money earmarked to fight covid to balance their books. They have no interest in reuniting Somerset. Can we have a debate on greedy thugs wasting money? King Alfred would be appalled. Rudyard Kipling had the answer:

“We never pay any-one Dane-geld,

No matter how trifling the cost;

For the end of that game is oppression and shame,

And the nation that plays it is lost!”

Merry Christmas!

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend is as forthright as ever. We should remember the great contribution to the world from the victory of Alfred the Great, the refusal to give in to the Danes and all that he did when he was in the Somerset levels. My hon. Friend is right to attach great importance to the use of public funds. We all have a duty to ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent well. I look back to the halcyon days when Somerset County Council was run by Henry Hobhouse, my late godfather, who was a great leader of the council. When he was in charge, things were done properly.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 3rd December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The Government have introduced a test and trace support payment of £500 in additional support to help people who have to remain away from work because they are being tested. There is also a £50 million discretionary fund for those facing hardship when self-isolating who are not eligible for the £500 payment. There has been £9 billion of additional welfare support. I think what the hon. Gentleman is asking for has been done by the Government providing this additional support.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

As my right hon. Friend already knows—we have heard it in these business questions—North Somerset has been unfairly lumped in with Bristol in the tiering system. Does my right hon. Friend remember—I am sure he does—that it was King Alfred who passed the law for everyone to take a break from Christmas day until twelfth night and then resume the defence of our borders with added vigour? Sadly, the county of Somerset is now under threat from a very dishonest county council dictator who wants to grab, loot and pillage the cash reserves of the districts and steal more power. These people are actually worse than the Vikings, if that is possible. Somerset needs to be reunited and strong. We owe it to King Alfred to make that happen. Therefore can we have time in Government time to debate a crucial question not only of our constitution, but of our history?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

It is worth bearing in mind that were it not for Somerset, there would be no United Kingdom. The whole history of our nation is born out of our great county, because if Alfred had not defeated the Danes, we would never have seen the evolution of our country as it has happened. Alfred the Great was the founder of the Royal Navy, our pride and our security—

“an ornament and a safeguard”,

one might say, although that is actually the motto of the Scottish Crown. It is so important that we remember our history in our bureaucratic structures, because they bring a reality to them that underpins them and gives them support from the people who are governed. I am very sympathetic to what my hon. Friend says about the county being reunited after the vandalism of the late Sir Edward Heath.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 22nd October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

When Standing Orders provide for a one-hour debate, it is only right that that time is properly provided, should Members wish to use it, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware that there are concerns over the way the recruitment process was carried out. There is disquiet in certain quarters with regard to that, and that is why the motion has not at this stage been brought forward, though it is under discussion.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

My right hon. Friend will recall the treaty of Wedmore in Somerset, by which, as he knows, the Vikings were finally kicked out of Wessex, and perhaps there are lessons there for us. Today, we have a counterfeit county council pretending to represent the whole of Somerset, and it wants to become yet another faceless unitary authority. It reminds me of the Viking army of Ivar the Boneless—all brawn and no legs. Thankfully, the Government have promised to look at every option, including the excellent ideas—and they are excellent—from Somerset district councils, which capture the true spirit of King Alfred. The districts want to bring our county together, not divide it still more, and I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State has invited all Somerset councils, including our two existing unitaries, to submit ideas. Can we please have a debate on these matters soon because this county council, this narrow-minded Ivar the Boneless, wants to destroy our history? King Alfred must prevail.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Ivar the Boneless was given his marching orders actually from Nottingham by Alfred the Great with his brother Aethelred I—not to be confused with the unready one who comes a little bit later. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Ivar the Boneless must be moved out of Wessex—he ended up disappearing from history, as it happens, and is thought to have died in either 872 or 873. I have so much sympathy with what my hon. Friend is saying. Somerset is a great, single, individual county. It always seemed to me to be rubbing the salt in the wound of the 1974 local government reforms when Somerset County Council put up signs saying “Welcome to Somerset” when people were just going into its administrative area and not entering the great county.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 8th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

We can now unite Somerset—I call Ian Liddell-Grainger.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in celebrating the anniversary of the battle of Carhampton, which is in my constituency in Somersetshire? Carhampton was of course the scene of the historic clash between the Danish invaders and King Egbert of Wessex, granddad of the creator of Britain, King Alfred. Our county—our great county—is once again under threat from the divisive plans put forward by the so-called county council, God help us, which does not represent the county at all and has mounted an invasion against common sense. King Egbert and his son King Aethelwulf, and the great King Alfred himself, would have fought against it. Can we have Government time to stand with our great kings and fight this rubbish before it is too late?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Egbert is one of the great kings of Wessex who extended the borders of Wessex and became the bretwalda—that is to say, the high king—of the Anglo-Saxons and put Mercia in its place, at least briefly. That is worth remembering, because Gloucestershire is Mercian territory, so Somerset got one up on Gloucestershire, which we always quite like. With regard to my hon. Friend’s key message, it is worth bearing in mind that he is right to say “the so-called county council”, because the county council does not cover the county of Somerset but an administrative district of the historic county, and people should remember that.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 1st October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The Government take this issue with the utmost seriousness and have been doing a great deal to help care homes, including issuing more than 100,000 tests a day to care homes across the country, overhauling the delivery of personal protective equipment to care homes and setting up a £1.1 billion infection control fund. The issue that the hon. Lady raises is one of great seriousness. I assure her that it will be taken up on her behalf with the Secretary of State for Health immediately after this statement.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

I know that my right hon. Friend, because he is a sensible fellow, did not visit Minehead funfair a few days ago. The idea that Minehead Town Council could actually have a funfair at this time is daft, stupid and dangerous. As my right hon. Friend is aware, infection rates in Somerset are going up, but Somerset County Council’s public health department has not acted to stop it; in fact, it has not done anything. I am afraid to say that the county council is far too busy fighting to form a half-baked unitary authority without the backing of the people of Somerset. I am afraid that promoting this ridiculous idea and using £1 million of public money to do so may cost us lives, and, as has already been mentioned, King Alfred would not tolerate it. Could we have a debate on some of the more stupid things that councils are doing during this appalling situation?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend refers to half-baked proposals and then King Alfred, so I cannot help but remember that King Alfred, as a baker, was not invariably successful.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 24th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for selecting a debate for next week that has such widespread support. That is, of course, the virtue of the Backbench Business Committee. I note what he says about Baby Loss Awareness Week, although I am nervous of promising to find time for specific weeks, because it has to fit in with other Government business, but his point is a very important one. I, too, am glad that the motion last night to get Westminster Hall back on 5 October was passed by the House, and that will be an opportunity for Members to raise a much wider range of issues for which time on the Floor of the House is not available. On the issue of local differences, it is up to local councils particularly to ensure that the message gets across in their areas—helped by Members of Parliament, as the hon. Gentleman does so effectively.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

My right hon. Friend, quite rightly, is a stickler for using clear and correct English. Last week in the House, he mourned—and rightly so—the loss of Somerset’s traditional boundaries, but his words were mischievously and dishonestly misinterpreted by the leader of Somerset County Council. My right hon. Friend has now become a victim of fake news, as he is wrongly accused of favouring Somerset County Council’s ridiculous half-baked scheme to form a unitary authority which does not take in Somerset. This silly plan fails to restore the Somerset of King Alfred to the greatness that we want to see. A much better plan for full-scale reform, which would help to reunite our broken county, has been put forward by the district councils. Could we please have a debate in Government time, or a rip—“could do better”—on fake news and on ensuring that the unitary bit, if it goes ahead, is for the district, not the county?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am appalled that fake news should come to this House and this country. I thought that it was something left to our friends across the Atlantic. There is nothing more annoying, when one is driving through God’s own county of Somerset, to see signs that say, “Welcome to Somerset”, when one has been in the county for mile upon mile. They are misleading, mischievous and wrongly placed, and that they were put there to celebrate one of our sovereign’s jubilees is extraordinarily irksome. My hon. Friend makes a good point about how we need to listen to all councils and get all their views, and very often we should listen to my hon. Friend.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 17th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

May I also wish the Jewish community a happy new year? Of course, celebrations are difficult this year under the regulation.

May I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and Deputy Chief Whip? I was worried that last week he was far too good and that this week hon. Members would all be clamouring for him. Indeed, I fear that they are, but are too polite and kindly to admit it to my face, although I have no doubt that the call will go out on Twitter that Members want the Deputy Chief Whip.

I also add my thanks to Marcial Boo, who carried out a very difficult task with dignity and patience. He was always available to Members to hear representations and was always keen to put things right. I think he did very good public service in possibly one of the most testing jobs, in which there are 650 critics and very few defenders. I think he did it really admirably.

The right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) is right once again to raise the question of British nationals detained overseas, including Anousheh Ashoori and Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. It is good news that the second trial has so far been deferred, and I hope that it will not take place. The detainees in Yemen can of course be raised in the debate coming up next week. The Government take this issue very seriously, but as the right hon. Lady knows, there are limitations to what the Government can do with a foreign nation that is determined to behave in the way that Iran behaves.

The right hon. Lady asked me about the scrutiny of statutory instruments. She will notice in the business that I announced that we are making time available for debate of statutory instruments where the Opposition prayed against them. It is the will of the Government, the habit of the Government and, indeed, the requirement of Parliament that where debates are requested, wherever it is possible and feasible in terms of the management of business, we will do our best to facilitate them and ensure proper scrutiny. That is of course up to Members as well. Some statutory instrument Committees do not take very long to perform their scrutiny, and we should all look to our own consciences as to how much we wish to debate statutory instruments when they come before Committees.

The right hon. Lady raises the point about the Department for Work and Pensions, and the terminally ill and the promise of an answer. I will follow that up for her; it is a reasonable request to have made. I will ask the Secretary of State to ensure a written response as to when we can expect an answer, even if we do not have the answer itself.

I am afraid that is where the sweetness and light has to end, because some of the other things that the right hon Lady said were really rather more contentious and have to be disputed. The UKIM Bill is a really important piece of legislation. It builds on section 38 of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, which made it clear that the law in this country is made by Parliament. That has been our historic constitutional position. The Prime Minister himself has pointed out that the EU in these negotiations is not acting with good faith. If we are negotiating with somebody who is not behaving in good faith, we have to protect our interests, and we have a fundamental duty to protect the Good Friday agreement. It is absolutely clear in the Good Friday agreement that there will be no change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland without agreement from the people of Northern Ireland. Putting tariffs on, banning food going from GB to Northern Ireland, would be such a fundamental change. It is our duty to stop that happening, because it is our duty to protect the Good Friday agreement and to support the United Kingdom. A fine piece of legislation has been crafted, and is being piloted through the House of Commons, that will do precisely that. It is the right law, it is good law and it will protect the position of the people of Britain.

The Government have consistently ensured that provisions are being made in Kent for whatever may be the result on 1 January next year. That is absolutely the right thing to do, and the Government are continuing to do that.

As regards testing, one has to be reasonable. I was not here last week because I was awaiting a test result, and that was quite right; people who have family members who have developed symptoms must self-isolate. The right hon. Lady’s right hon. Friend, the Leader of the Opposition, also did the right thing in self-isolating until the test result came back. We all have an obligation to try to stop a dangerous disease spreading, but we have gone from a disease that nobody knew about a few months ago to one where nearly a quarter of a million people a day can be tested, and the Prime Minister expects that to rise to half a million by the end of the October. Instead of this endless carping, with people saying it is difficult to get them, we should be celebrating this phenomenal success of the British nation in getting up to a quarter of a million tests for a disease that nobody knew about until earlier in the year. That is a success of our society, our health experts and our Administration. Yes, there is demand for more; yes, demand exceeds supply, but the supply is increasing and what has been done is really rather remarkable and something we should be proud of.

Finally, on the Division yesterday, well that is the great thing about being here physically: we had a fall-back plan, so we could all get through the Lobbies. Just think if we had all been remote: the business would have fallen and we would not have got the business through the House. [Interruption.] There is some cackling from the Opposition Benches. They seem to think that when technology fails you need even more technology, whereas as actually good, trusty turning up and saying “Aye” or “Nay” worked extraordinarily well.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

I have one small issue with my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew): he did not go back before the 16th century. I do wish my right hon. Friend to say a little bit about King Alfred. As he knows, earthquakes in Somerset are extremely rare, but there was a big one last December, just before Somerset County Council launched its bid to become a unitary. It made houses shake across the region. Was it the ghost of King Alfred rotating in his grave over the petty-mindedness and stupidity of the county council? Will my right hon. Friend give us a debate? The plan proposed by the district councils to reunite our wonderful county of Somerset and allow our famous king to rest in peace is worthy of Government time.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

May 878, the Battle of Edington: it is from that battle and the defeat of Guthrum that the British nation, the United Kingdom, was founded. Without that, we would probably all be speaking Danish. It is thanks to King Alfred, who of course laid his plans on the Somerset levels. We should always remember that our great nation comes from Somerset, and Somerset should always be at the centre of our nation’s thinking. It is one great united country. Ted Heath’s chopping it up in 1974 caused me dyspepsia as a five-year-old and continues to cause me dyspepsia now. Somerset is a great county, and the more united it is the better.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 16th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman may want to go on to MemberHub in a moment, because he could apply to put in a question to the Health Minister who will be making a statement at 5 o’clock.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

My right hon. Friend knows how good Sedgemoor District Council is, but I do not know if my right hon. Friend is aware that it has just approved the imaginative plans for the Gravity site, on the M5, of 600 acres, which even Elon Musk, I believe, has been down to see. This will create 4,000 jobs. May we please have a debate in Government time on the importance of enterprise sites, of which this is one, and their role in creating opportunities for all of the United Kingdom, but especially where district councils should be praised for the imaginative work of making sure they create jobs in their areas?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

It is wonderful to see somebody from God’s own county. The more we hear from Somerset and about Somerset, the better, and I join my hon. Friend in congratulating Sedgemoor District Council. It is actually a rare treat to have Members come in and praise their local council; normally, it is a litany of woes where local councils are concerned. However, 4,000 jobs is a great achievement, and enterprise sites are a very good way of encouraging business. I am very grateful to him for highlighting the success of Somerset, which goes from strength to strength.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 2nd July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

May I begin by wishing the hon. Gentleman a swift recovery, and I am sorry to hear that he is suffering from these debilitating after-effects of covid-19. The Health Secretary makes regular appearances at the House, and I am sure it would be suitable to raise this question with him, and I am sure it is among many other things that are being looked into as people learn more about this disease.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

Can we please have a debate about local government restructuring? In Somerset, the county council has unfortunately been far too busy looking for unitary instead of attacking covid-19. Believe it or not, it is now trying to persuade the Government to let it become a huge new unitary. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the timing of this bid is at least insensitive and that the future of our other two struggling unitary councils in Somerset must be included in any future reviews of Government restructuring in Somerset?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend tempts me when he asks for a debate on Somerset. Dare I say that I feel that all parliamentary time could well be devoted to discussing the virtues, joys and successes of our great county, which has been a county since antiquity. I think that the county of Somerset was formed in about the eighth century; it was certainly a very important county in the time of Alfred the Great, so debating it is something that is close to my heart. My hon. Friend raises an important point about local government reorganisation, of which the Secretary of State is well aware, as my hon. Friend and I both know.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Wednesday 29th April 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The connection was not perfect, so I am not sure I got all the points, but I will answer them as far as I can. First, I completely agree with the right hon. Lady in congratulating the Prime Minister and Carrie on the wonderful news of a baby. As a father of six, I know that there is no greater joy than a new life suddenly appearing in the room, and this is a huge joy for the whole country. I believe the Prime Minister joins an exclusive club of Members who are fathers of six, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). I do not know if there are any others I am missing out, but it is a great club to belong to.

As regards who can apply for the support from the Treasury, the rules are relatively clear and well set out. Companies that are not contributing, or that have not contributed, to this country and do not have their operations in this country will not particularly benefit, but employment in this country will benefit. As regards dividends, that, in a way, is a matter for companies. I notice that BP is going to carry on paying its dividend to try to help pensioners, and that is a decision for companies where I do not think it would be right for the Government to intervene.

We know the figures on PPE, as they have been set out, but there is a global shortage and every effort is being made to ensure that PPE gets to people who need it. The Government are working very hard on that and are investigating offers of supply from around the world. I notice that the Daily Mail and its readers are making huge efforts to help as well, so it is a national effort in which we are all involved.

I am concerned that the right hon. Lady says that she has not had a response from various Ministries and that email addresses have not necessarily been working. Particularly during periods of recess it is of great importance that Ministries respond in accordance with their own timelines. I know that there have been strains on certain Ministries, which is understandable, but holding Ministers to account is part of our role, and I will take that up with the Ministries that she mentioned and ensure that correct email addresses are made available.

Regarding particular statements, the right hon. Lady will understand that there is great pressure for statements and urgent questions at the moment. We are sitting for three days, and we have had a statement every day. Today, there is a business statement as well, so there are two statements today. All requests for statements are taken seriously, and I hope that the right hon. Lady will note that the many requests we received for a general debate on covid-19 have been taken up. Finally, she mentioned 1 May. She omitted to say that it is the feast of St Joseph the Workman, so it is a good day to celebrate.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

My right hon. Friend will agree that is nice to have an Exmoor man having a new child. I congratulate the Prime Minister, especially as he is a local.

My right hon. Friend and I have something else in common—Somerset county—and we are both proud of the area we live in. Big counties have received the lion’s share of the very good grants—and I am grateful to the Government—that have been given out to cope with this awful pandemic. However, I must question how some of them are using the money. I have received next to nothing from the county of Somerset, while Devon next door is keeping me enormously informed about what it is doing and how it is spending its money. When the time is right, will my right hon. Friend allow us to have a debate about the way in which counties and districts have handled this crisis in what has been a difficult time for us all?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

What a pleasure it is to hear from my hon. Friend in his Somerset fastness—assuming that is where he is—and to admire the collection of ornaments behind him, so elegantly displayed for our delectation.

The spending of public money must always be held to account. It is of utmost importance that what is taken from taxpayers is spent responsibly by the authorities who spend it. The Government have provided £1.6 billion extra for local councils, and £3.2 billion will come in the fullness of time. That money must be accounted for by all councils, even those covering the great county of Somerset.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 24th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

May we have a debate in Government time about smart motorways? Nobody understands whether those things are safe or good value for money—or, indeed, whether they work. Is it now time to discuss their future?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend and near neighbour tempts me because I suffer from delays on the M4 every week when going down to Somerset due to preparations for a smart motorway. This issue has been pretty well discussed, and we have literally just had Transport questions, which might have been the time to have raised it.

Chief Constable Dismissal Procedures

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Thursday 29th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My right hon. Friend, as so often, hits the nail on the head. The one block that there should have been to this, the police and crime commissioner, turned out to be weak in the face of this trial by media and this public pressure. That is deeply unsatisfactory, because it means that the loss of confidence in somebody who has been found not guilty may be sufficient to remove them from the job, so if someone throws enough mud and a little bit of it sticks then that could justify a lack of confidence, and thus leak, rumour and gossip replace hard fact, which risks the independence of the constabulary. In his own lecture, Sir Thomas Winsor said that

“sufficient security of tenure is essential to safeguard those aspects of a Chief Constable’s role that relate to operational independence. Operational independence would be seriously compromised by a power for a Police and Crime Commissioner to dismiss the Chief Constable at will.”

At the heart of our concern is the fact that a flawed process, a weak police and crime commissioner and the power of gossip allowed a chief constable to be dismissed. That must undermine the ability in future of chief constables to take difficult decisions if they know that unfounded or minor misdemeanours may be used to force them out.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

It is even worse than that. The chief superintendent’s letter did the damage. The man who signed it was Chief Superintendent Wylie, who suddenly then became promoted to commander in Somerset. I am sorry, but that is too much of a coincidence. This is worse than anything that Chief Constable Gargan did. This is completely out of hand.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West will make some remarks in relation to the vested interests that emerged through the course of this process, which we should be concerned about. We should note that the no confidence in the chief constable arose before the final publication of the report, so it had to be based on rumour and not on fact.