Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Debate between Jack Rankin and Andrew Gwynne

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am sure it has. I was using shorthand, Mr Pritchard, and the wonderful people at Hansard will of course have the hon. Gentleman’s full title. Being the Member for Gorton and Denton, I know how important it is that we reference both Gorton and Denton, so I take the hon. Gentleman’s point.

Many public venues and spaces have already put in place their own policies on vaping. For example, many hospitals and public transport providers have banned vaping on their premises. Subject to consultation, the clause will merely make those bans official.

There is an emerging evidence base, and it is important that we continue to monitor it. That is why my Department, my officials and I, as the Minister for public health and prevention, are in regular contact with stakeholders. I have to tell the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire that that includes Cancer Research UK, which is a major stakeholder of the Bill. It is also important to put clearly on the record that it fully supports the measures in the Bill. I do not want anybody reading Hansard at subsequent stages, such as on Report or in the House of Lords, to be under the misapprehension that Cancer Research UK does not fully support the Bill, because it does.

Turning to the hon. Member for Windsor, I am not sure that I am going to take public health advice derived from a briefing from the office of idiotic economic arguments, otherwise known as the IEA. It is not clear whether the IEA gets funding from the tobacco and vaping industry, but I suspect that it does. Therefore, we have to take what it says with a large modicum of prejudice thrown in.

[Jack Rankin]

I think the Minister is teasing me ever so slightly. I just want to say that I did write what I said; it was not given to me by the IEA.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The hon. Gentleman obviously wrote it after being inspired by his wonderful dinner with members of the idiotic economic arguments committee. I only half jest and half pull his leg, because I will never forgive the IEA for crashing the country’s economy, but we are not here to talk about the last Conservative Government, under the leadership of Liz Truss.

I do have some sympathy with some of the points that the hon. Gentleman made. We agree—and I think it has already been established—that vaping is less harmful than smoking and can be an effective smoking cessation tool, so that is an area that we definitely want to get right. Clearly, we want to continue to ensure that adult smokers can use vapes as a quit aid, while protecting others from the risks of vaping. That is why only places that are smoke-free can also become vape-free. To avoid unintended consequences on adult smoking rates, which the hon. Gentleman has raised on a number of occasions, the scope and impact of any future restrictions will be carefully considered. We will design the regulations in a manner that does not result in greater smoking harm.

I want to politely educate the hon. Gentleman on the process of secondary legislation, as he is a new Member—I do not mean this disrespectfully. Every statutory instrument that comes before a Delegated Legislation Committee appears on the Order Paper for a subsequent day on the Floor of the House of Commons. Before the Adjournment debate and the House adjourns, and after whatever votes we have had on the business of the day, there is something called the remaining orders of the day, which is all the secondary legislation that has been approved in Delegated Legislation Committees.

Should a Member shout “Object”, that leads to a deferred Division of the whole House. When the hon. Gentleman goes through the No Lobby, gets his pink card and puts a “No” next to Government legislation, as I am sure he has done on umpteen occasions since 4 July, that is a vote of the whole House on a statutory instrument that has been passed by a Delegated Legislation Committee. On all the measures that we introduce through secondary legislation, he will have the opportunity —I am sure his Whip and the shadow Health Secretary are taking note—to shout “Object” and cause a deferred Division.

On the question of who will enforce vape-free legislation, I accept that vaping is easier to conceal than smoking, and therefore it is much easier to enforce a prohibition on smoking in a designated area than to prevent someone from having a sly puff on a vape, but this policy is about ensuring consistency, notwithstanding the difficulties there will be in enforcing it. As we have argued before, the majority of the British public are law-abiding citizens. This does not need to be a heavy-handed policy. Most people will enforce it themselves, and they will encourage those around them to be considerate to others.

In England, enforcement of any extension of smoke- free or vape-free places is expected to be undertaken by the same allocated teams within local authorities that currently enforce smoke-free legislation. That is typically the responsibility of the environmental health teams within local authorities. As with smoking in a smoke-free premise, someone found to be vaping in a vape-free premise in England may be issued with a fine on conviction of up to £200, or an on-the-spot fine of £50.

In Scotland, enforcement of any extension of smoke-free or vape-free places is expected to be undertaken by local environmental health officers, which is the case now with existing smoke-free places. As with smoking in smoke-free places, those vaping in a vape-free place in Scotland face a fine on conviction of up to £1,000, or a £50 on-the-spot fine.

In Wales, enforcement of any extension of smoke-free or vape-free places is expected to be undertaken by local authorities, which are responsible for enforcing existing smoke-free legislation. The police are also authorised to enforce the smoke-free requirements in relation to private cars carrying children. As with smoking in a smoke-free place, those vaping in a vape-free place in Wales face a fine on conviction of up to £200, or a £100 on-the- spot fine.

In Northern Ireland, local councils are primarily responsible for enforcing the existing smoke-free rules; we would expect that to extend to vape-free places as well. As with smoking in a smoke-free place, those vaping in a vape-free place in Northern Ireland face a fine on conviction of up to £1,000, or a £50 on-the-spot fine.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

That is effectively the argument I am advancing. In terms of the quantum of harm as a percentage of a cigarette, I do not know. As I understand it, even though we do not fully know yet the dangers of heated tobacco, it is similar to vaping in that we do not want anybody to take it up, but if someone smokes we would prefer them to use it as a cessation device. I understand that that is the way they are marketed.

[Andrew Gwynne]

indicated dissent.

[Jack Rankin]

The Minister is disagreeing, but he can combat that in his speech.

[Jack Rankin]

My hon. Friend’s points have been noted for the record. From what I have read and seen in the representations to the Committee and more widely, heated tobacco seems to me to be similar to vaping, in the sense that we do not people to start it as a product, but it is less harmful than cigarettes, so we should try to facilitate a way for people to use those methods as cessation devices.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I will come to the shadow Minister’s point at the end, but first I want to nail the pernicious lie peddled by the tobacco industry that there is a tobacco product that is an adequate smoking cessation tool. There is no form of tobacco that is safe. That is why we are stopping the sale of tobacco in any form to anybody born on or after 1 January 2009. That is a clear aim and objective of the Bill.

I do not want to rehearse old arguments but, taking us back to the almost two-day-long debate we had on clause 1, I made it clear that we are effectively saying to the tobacco industry that as far as its market base is concerned in the United Kingdom—in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—this is as good as it gets. There will be no other route to peddle this deadly, toxic ingredient called tobacco that, were Sir Walter Raleigh to bring it to these shores today, would be illegal. However, because we have a 500-year history, which the shadow Minister kindly researched and gave us chapter and verse on in the debate on clause 1, we know we are where we are as a consequence of the tobacco industry. We will heaven and earth, however, to make sure that there is no other route for the tobacco industry to grow its market share. The lie that heated tobacco is a smoking cessation tool is precisely that—a lie.

There are smoking cessation tools that we are championing that are tobacco-free, which is why we have a differential between vapes and tobacco products in the Bill. We recognise that vaping has a value as a smoking cessation tool, but I will never, ever concede that another tobacco product is a smoking cessation tool.

Tobacco is uniquely harmful. It kills two thirds of its user base. It is a major cause of death and of cancer in this country to this day. Whether it is cigarettes, cigars or heated tobacco, tobacco is tobacco, and tobacco is dangerous. I will not concede to the hon. Member for Windsor on the tobacco industry’s lie that heated tobacco is a smoking cessation tool. He wants to switch on the conveyor belt, albeit slowly, but that conveyor belt is stopping—and stopping for good.

The shadow Minister raises an important point about how people will identify heated tobacco products if they are not aware what such products look like, in order for the measure to be self-enforcing in the way that not smoking in smoke-free places has largely been self-enforced, and as we expect measures on vaping to be. I reassure her that when the measures in the Bill are enacted, there will be a comprehensive information campaign so people will be aware of what is restricted as a consequence of its measures. That should raise awareness of products such as heated tobacco without promoting them, as the hon. Member for Windsor would like, as a pseudo-miraculous device for people to quit their addiction.

As I say, there is no safe level of tobacco consumption. For that reason, I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 140 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 141

Amendments consequential on sections 136 to 140

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Debate between Jack Rankin and Andrew Gwynne

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Rankin]

I am going to make some progress. Even judging by the Government’s own standards, we should be treating vaped tobacco and heated tobacco very differently from cigarettes. We should be a little careful about the unintended consequences of this measure, and I hope the Minister can say how he might consult other bodies to look at those unintended consequences.

I have a small concern with the internet services measure in clause 119. Again, it seems that the Government’s aims in this legislation is to prevent targeted communication on vapes and nicotine products to adult smokers, such as via emails or digital channels, which can reach them directly. I understand the point about not wanting to aim such communication at children, but targeted communication, such as using people’s internet search history, could be an effective means of encouraging smokers to quit. I mentioned a few weeks ago the work that NHS Essex is doing with a vaping company, targeted at adult smokers. I do not think the Government, in achieving their aims of a smoke-free generation, should be too prescriptive on this.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to hon. Members for our discussion on amendment 87 and subsequent clauses. These amendments intend to make an exemption under the advertisement ban to allow vaping products to be promoted by businesses as a smoking cessation tool for existing tobacco smokers. I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s intention behind the amendment to ensure that smokers are encouraged to use vapes as a quit aid. That is why the Bill as drafted will continue to support the promotion of vaping as a quit aid for smokers through the appropriate channels. By “appropriate channels”, I say to the hon. Lady that we mean public health authorities.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Jack Rankin and Andrew Gwynne

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Rankin]

I thank the hon. Member for providing that clarity. That is good to hear, but it is important to put on the record that we in this House should apply the same rules to ourselves as we apply to our constituents.

Again, as a non-lawyer, I ask the Minister for some clarification on the implications of the non-criminal liability of the Crown in clause 47(2) and how that sits alongside the reference to

“persons in the service of the Crown”

in subsection (4). What I am seeking is consistency between what applies in the real world and what applies to the Crown. Perhaps the Minister could say what that provision means in laymen’s terms, so that I can say to my constituents that what we are applying to them also applies to us.

I want to add to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon. If you will forgive me, Sir Roger, I will be a bit parochial to illustrate the point. I said earlier that the Crown is quite a nebulous concept for a legislator, and where it begins and ends is difficult to understand. It is often taken to mean the state more broadly, but I have another example, from my constituency. Windsor Great Park is Crown Estate—the arm’s length Government body that the House has been legislating on in the past weeks—but the castle itself is owned and managed by the royal household. In my casework and when dealing with stakeholders, I often find that different rules apply to the Crown Estate and the royal household. The royal household seems to have much more personal control from the monarch, whereas the Crown Estate is very much run by the trustees, effectively on behalf of the Treasury.

It would be good to understand what we mean when we talk about the Crown. It is clear from my hon. Friend the shadow Minister’s remarks that we are talking about the palaces, but it would be good to know whether the clause applies to all these different arms of the British state in some way, shape or form, or whether other provisions apply to them.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I am grateful to hon. Members for their questions on these clauses, which are entirely technical and appertain to the treatment of the Crown in relation to the measures in the Bill. They follow a general Crown application, being broadly similar to, and mirroring pretty closely, the way other Acts of Parliament deal with the Crown. I am not sure whether the fact we have spent more than half an hour debating them shows Parliament at its best or at its niggliest, but we are having the debate none the less.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Jack Rankin and Andrew Gwynne

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Rankin]

I believe that is the case, and it is something I did not know before today. My questions were along the lines of: is this not just paper, and, if so, why is it excluded in some sense? I was racking my brain for legitimate reasons, and, in her speech, the shadow Minister gave some legitimate reasons, whether that is the woodwind instruments, or the model making mentioned by the Member for Chatham and Aylesford. It seems to me that—even though I disagree with the principle of the Bill—those extra properties would not be necessary for those legitimate uses in this instance.

As my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said, the market should be able to make a difference. Clause 2(3) should be struck from the Bill, because it does not seem that there is a legitimate use for cigarette papers that would not be picked up in another way, shape or form if that subsection were removed. I understand from the guidance I received as a new Member on my first day here that I have to three days to table an amendment before discussion, but I would suggest the removal of subsection (3). Perhaps the Government will consider whether the provision should remain fully in the next iteration of the clause later in this process.

I also want to speak to the term “no reason to suspect”, because I am not clear where the burden of proof sits. If someone goes into a newsagent to order cigarette papers, the overwhelming likelihood is that they will use them to smoke cigarettes. I accept that other reasons exist, but is the shopkeeper supposed to ask? The Bill says “no reason to suspect”; I would expect shopkeepers to have every reason to suspect that people who buy cigarette papers smoke cigarettes. It seems a little woolly. What would the Minister expect the shopkeeper to do in those instances? Is he supposed to ask? If the person says, “I am using this for a woodwind instrument,” is that sufficient? If I were a person who wished to get around the law, I could pretty easily work out that that would get me around the clause.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I shall answer some of the points made, which were valid. To answer the shadow Minister, cigarette papers are within the scope of the existing legislation. They are included because burning them adds to the volume of smoke and because, with their bleaches and dyes, as she rightly set out, the range of toxicants in the smoke contributes to the additional risks to smokers.

On filters, I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s premise. Although cigarette filters have historically been marketed to make smoking safer, there is no evidence of that whatsoever. All tobacco products are harmful. However, as with all regulations, it is important that measures are considered fully and that the evidence base is there, with no unintended consequences. I do not want to give the tobacco industry the opportunity to greenwash and to say, “Not only are filters healthier for you, but they are healthier for the environment.” We absolutely do not want that. We have powers in part 5 of the Bill to restrict the flavours in cigarette papers, so the argument set out by the shadow Minister is covered. On single-use plastics, it is for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to legislate, and it already has powers that enable it to consult on single-use plastics in cigarette filters.

As we have heard, a number of relevant products—for example, pipe cleaners and cigarette papers—can be used for musical instruments, as well as for crafting, art, model making and a whole range of other uses. We do not want to restrict those uses; we want to make it more difficult for people to access such products for the provision of smoking. As we said when we discussed clause 1, we are not making the smoking of tobacco illegal; we are preventing the next generation from getting hooked. The restrictions therefore strike a proportionate balance. A current smoker will be able to smoke until the until the day they die. Although we will do everything we can to give them the opportunity to give up, they will be able to access the products legally, but the Bill will introduce restrictions on them.

We think we have got the balance right, but we will take away the arguments and consider them, because they are valid arguments about how a musician, or someone who wants to use them for crafting and modelling, will still able to access these products if they want to use them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

The nub of clause 3 is age verification. The reason the Minister and the Government do not want tobacco vending machines in operation is not that they do not want convenience for the customer, but rather that they want to make sure that people are of a suitable age under the law. Without somebody to check, that is a problem.

In my youth, I used to play snooker in what was the Minister’s constituency. There was a little area of the club, with a little gate, where the gambling machines were, and there was a tobacco vending machine in there. The only thing preventing us from going in there was honesty. Whereas it stopped me as a teenager, I do not suppose that it would have stopped adults in the same way—if you wanted to restrict adults from being a smoker in the future, that would not serve as a deterrent.

My question is about nicotine products, which I was hoping the Minister could come to, perhaps when he winds up. Nicotine products are defined separately from tobacco products in this legislation, so it would still be acceptable for things such as nicotine patches to be sold through vending machines. That does not sound unsensible, because it does not seem to me that people trying to evade this law would be attracted to nicotine products in the same way they might be to other tobacco cessation devices. Perhaps the Minister can comment on how he proposes to treat them when he winds up.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Let me first say to the shadow Minister that we are aware of the new type of machines she mentioned, and we are concerned by their presence. The Department is looking to ensure that there are no loopholes in this legislation and that these machines, which may seek to bypass the age of sale restrictions, are not able to. Secondly, she has already answered the point about Scotland: the reason these measures do not appertain to Scotland is that Scotland already has legislation covering them.

To other Members, I say that we are overcomplicating this. As I said in opening, the clauses merely restate the existing ban on tobacco vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We are consolidating the legislation to make it easier to understand the law but also to enforce it from one place—and that is it. This is the consolidation of existing powers that are working now.

The hon. Member for Windsor is absolutely right when he says that we want to ensure that age of sale is absolutely enabled to be enforced. As he said, when he was playing snooker in my old constituency, he would have been able to purchase tobacco products from a vending machine, and it was basically on the basis of trust that people were able to do that. That is no longer acceptable. We are bringing in the age restrictions, and we therefore need to make sure that they are adhered to.

I do not wish to stray on to nicotine products, because those are subject to a debate further on in the Bill. However, the hon. Gentleman is right to draw a distinction in the way he has. That is why the whole Bill treats nicotine products separately to, and very differently from, tobacco products, for reasons we will get to in due course.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4

Sale of unpackaged cigarettes

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Jack Rankin and Andrew Gwynne

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Rankin]

I disagree with the Government on some of the clauses dealing with vaping, but I will come to those later, when it is more appropriate. I agree with what the Government are trying to do in clauses 10, 11 and 12 to toughen things up for under-18s. To that end, I encourage them to support new clause 10, tabled by the shadow Minister, which tries to make purchasing more difficult for under-18s online. We talked earlier about the principle of vending machines, which is addressed in clause 12 and by trying to ensure age verification when there is no one else present. It seems to me that new clause 10 is entirely in line with that, so I hope the Minister might consider supporting it.

[Andrew Gwynne]

It is good to see you back in the Chair, Sir Roger. Before addressing these amendments, the respective clauses and the proposed new clause, I want to make it clear that I will be using the generic term “vapes or vaping products” throughout to refer to vapes, e-cigarettes or nicotine vapour products. Likewise, I will use the term “nicotine products” to refer to consumer nicotine products, such as nicotine pouches. I am not referring to licensed nicotine-based medicines, which will not be further restricted by the Bill.

Under clause 10 it will continue to be an offence to sell a nicotine vape to a person who is under the age of 18 in England and Wales, and anyone who is found guilty of the offence will be liable to pay a fine of up to £2,500 if convicted. It is a defence if the person can prove they were shown what appeared to be an identity document belonging to the purchaser that showed they were over 18, or that they otherwise took all reasonable steps to avoid committing an offence. The clause also extends this age of sale restriction to consumer nicotine products and non-nicotine vapes, as we know that children are accessing those products. There are currently no age of sale restrictions on those products, and non-nicotine vapes can easily have nicotine solutions manually added to them.

Clause 59 refers to Scotland and extends existing offences in Scotland for selling vaping products to under-18s, proxy purchases on behalf of under-18s, and failure to operate an age verification policy related to vaping products, so nicotine products are also covered in those offences. By amending that legislation, we will align the approach across the United Kingdom, which is the wish of the devolved Administrations. The clause amends Scottish legislation by replacing the term “nicotine vapour products” with the term “vaping products”, thus aligning the definitions across the UK.

Another of the changes to Scottish legislation in this clause makes it an offence for any person managing or controlling a premises to have a prohibited vending machine available for use. This effectively maintains the existing prohibition in Scotland on vending machines selling vaping and tobacco products; indeed, it extends it to include machines from which nicotine products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers can be purchased. Again, this aligns the approach across the UK.

Clause 76 applies similar measures in Northern Ireland to those in England and Wales, meaning that it will be an offence to sell a vaping or nicotine product to a person in Northern Ireland under the age of 18, thereby expanding current Northern Ireland legislation to cover all vaping products and nicotine products. Anyone convicted of the offence will be liable to a pay a fine of up to £5,000. All these measures for England, Scotland and Northern Ireland will come into force six months after the Bill receives Royal Assent, to give retailers time to introduce them.

These clauses will play an important role in ensuring that we can tackle youth vaping successfully. They provide businesses with certainty as to who they may legally sell products to, and they reinforce our health advice that children should never vape.

However, the amendments tabled by the shadow Minister would undermine that approach by creating a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of selling vaping or nicotine products to someone under age. They would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would either be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale—that is, a fine of £1,000—or be given a caution instead. Level 3 is one level lower than the level 4 fine of £2,500 that someone who commits this offence is liable to under the current legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

I commend the Minister on making the evidence-based point about the difference between a smoke-free generation and a nicotine-free generation. Does he agree—I think he does, given the comments he has just made—that there are some somewhat sweeping powers here, which could be used to come back and ask for more legislation against vaping companies? Does he agree that that potential lack of certainty for legitimate vaping businesses might impede investment in this space, which is actually contributing to the benefit of a smoke-free generation?

[Andrew Gwynne]

There is nothing in the Bill that we are proposing to do that will restrict the legitimate sale of vapes. As a Government, we recognise that vapes have been used, and continue to be used, as a stop smoking tool. Our advice remains very clear: vapes are not harm free. We do not yet know the full extent of the harm, but as we heard from the chief medical officers from the four nations, it is unlikely that they are harm free. Indeed, there is limited evidence showing some harms, and there are lots of studies and research taking place to ascertain what the long-term impacts of vaping might be.

Our advice remains clear: if a person has never smoked, not smoking, and not vaping, is the best thing. If a person has smoked, vaping is safer than smoking, but it is not risk-free, and as a smoking cessation tool, it has proven to be successful for some. We do not want children to ever take up vaping—ever, and not in adulthood, either. Vaping is for people who have been smokers who want to give up; vapes are a safer product than tobacco.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and I agree with everything she has just said.

I will just finish my remarks to my hon. Friend the shadow Minister. She talked about this measure being a further opportunity; I would suggest that the easy availability of nicotine products in certain instances would be an aid on that journey.

We should be working pragmatically on amendments such as this in Committee, to ensure that the evidence is considered and that the right balance is struck. I will support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire. Because the nicotine product vending machine measure is part of clause 12, I will vote against clause 12 stand part.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Clauses 12 and 78 prohibit vape and nicotine product vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and similar provisions are made elsewhere for Scotland. However, it is really important that the Committee understands that Scotland already specifically prohibits vape vending machines.

Clause 12 makes it an offence for any person managing or controlling a premises to have a vaping or nicotine product vending machine available for use, which effectively prohibits the sale of vapes and nicotine products from vending machines. I will try to clarify this point for the shadow Minister. She asks, “Who is responsible? Who is that person?” The offence is linked to the person with management control of the premises, as that is the most appropriate mechanism; they have control over whether the vending machine is present. That is the answer to her question.

This Government will stop the next generation from becoming hooked on nicotine. To do that, it is essential that we stop children from accessing harmful and age-restricted products. Prior to the prohibition of tobacco vending machines, we know that children who smoked regularly used those machines as their source of cigarettes. We cannot allow the same thing to happen with vapes.

Vending machines do not require any human oversight, so it is much easier for determined individuals to bypass age-of-sale restrictions and, crucially, to undertake proxy purchases on behalf of individuals under 18 because there is a much lower chance of their being challenged about such a purchase. Additionally, by their very presence vending machines advertise their contents and the Bill will ban the advertising of vapes. We need to ensure that children are protected from harmful and addictive products. Ensuring that we remove the ability of children to access age-restricted products is an essential part of that approach.

I turn to amendment 96, regarding the exempting of mental health units from the vending machine prohibition. I am grateful to the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire for bringing this important issue before the Committee today for discussion. Her amendment would allow vape and nicotine product vending machines to be available for use in specialised mental health units in England and Wales.

I am very sympathetic to the needs of adult smokers and vapers in mental health facilities, and I know that this topic came up during the evidence session. However, we do not currently believe that there is a need to exempt mental health settings or other healthcare settings from these requirements. Scotland did not exempt mental health units from its vape vending machine ban, and it has had no issues. I want to be clear, because it is really important that I make this point: we are not banning the sale of vapes and nicotine products in mental health settings. We are only prohibiting their sale from automatic machines that provide no means to prevent proxy purchasing. Facilities that contain shops will still be able to sell vapes to patients and staff. Additionally, patients in mental health settings may be able to benefit from stop smoking services and the swap to stop scheme.

The majority of in-patient trusts, both acute and mental health, successfully deliver stop smoking support to smokers. As part of the swap to stop scheme, localities can request free vaping starter kits to provide to adults engaging with their local stop smoking services. Awards have now been made to individual services in a range of settings, including NHS and mental health settings, and to specific populations. It will still be legal and possible for vending machines to dispense medicinally licensed nicotine replacement therapies such as gums, patches and inhalers. These important medicines will still be available to patients who are looking to quit smoking or who are struggling with their nicotine addiction.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Jack Rankin and Andrew Gwynne

Committee stage
Thursday 9th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. I am also grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, for bringing this discussion before the Committee today.

These Liberal Democrat-tabled amendments would make it an offence to sell tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers to a person under the age of 25, rather than to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009. The amendments also seek to change the age-of-sale notices to align with the change in the age of sale, which is why there are so many consequential amendments.

This group of amendments also includes amendments 29 and 30, which cover proxy sale of tobacco products in Scotland. To save time, I assure the Committee that, instead of now, I will discuss those particular issues during the clause 2 debate, which I hope will begin shortly, as that relates directly to the points in that group on proxy sales, rather than to age of sale.

As we heard from our expert witnesses during oral evidence, smoking is the No. 1 preventable cause of death, of disability and of ill health: it claims about 80,000 deaths a year across the United Kingdom; it causes one in four of all cancer deaths and it kills, as the shadow Minister rightly pointed out, two thirds of its long-term users. I say to the hon. Member for Windsor that there is no liberty whatever in addiction. We seek to ensure that the next generation is never addicted to tobacco products in the way that the current generation and previous generations have been. That is the real freedom here: the freedom not to be addicted to a product that, frankly, would not be allowed were it invented today.

[Jack Rankin]

I take the Minister’s point, but there is the potential throughout the Bill for double standards. He talks about addiction—I disagree with him, but it is a perfectly reasonable point to make—but the same could be true of gambling or alcohol. We allow, for example, gamblers to advertise on football shirts. So if the Minister takes the logic of his argument all the way through to its necessary end conclusion, then this Government must be legislating for all those addictive social things that are incredibly damaging as well.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

I understand the hon. Member’s argument, but it does not hold water. There is no safe level of smoking. That is the fundamental issue. People can drink or gamble responsibly. We have laws in place to protect against the harms of those things; we can argue—although this Bill is not the place for it—about whether those measures go far enough or go too far at present, but there are protections in place for alcohol and gambling harms. Tobacco is a product that kills two thirds of its users, and as a state, we have a duty to save lives.

[Jack Rankin]

I take the Minister’s point somewhat, but I think that there is a conflation of argument here about cigarettes and tobacco. If I may say so, the Minister alternated somewhat between the two. That may be the case with cigarettes; I have never been a smoker of cigarettes, but on new year’s eve I had a big cigar with my dad and brother, and the last one I had with them before that was at my brother’s 30th. I think that was a safe and pleasurable thing to do, and something that the state should not be infringing on. It is not just cigarettes that the Government are going after—it is all tobacco products.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The fact is that the primary consumption of tobacco in this country is through cigarettes. Tobacco is not a safe product. There is no safe level of tobacco use. The hon. Member might enjoy a cigar every now and then; that is a risk that he is prepared to take and that the law allows him to him to take, but I would argue that is still a risky behaviour. Tobacco, in whatever form it is consumed, causes health defects for him. The Bill seeks to ensure that we that we have a future generation that is weaned off tobacco, nicotine, and the toxins and the pollutants that come from a range of products, and that we give the tobacco industry no room for manoeuvre to shift from one product to another. It is about ensuring we have a generation that is freed from the addiction and the dirt and the death that tobacco brings.

Tobacco puts a huge pressure on our NHS. It costs taxpayers billions of pounds on our health and care services—a cost of £3.1 billion a year from smoke-related illnesses. The cost of smoking to our economy is also huge: £18.3 billion of productivity lost every year, with smokers being a third more likely to be off sick.

The Bill will deliver on this Labour Government’s manifesto commitment to create the world’s first smoke-free generation. To be fair to the shadow Minister, who supported the Bill on Second Reading and supported the previous iteration of the Bill that her Government introduced, it is to the credit of the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak) that his Government brought in the original iteration of the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. I pay credit to him for showing leadership on public health, and to the shadow Minister for always being a vocal supporter of tobacco control and opponent of the scourge of youth vaping. I only wish that some of her colleagues understood the sense of what we are seeking to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

Judging from the tone of debate so far, I might be the most sceptical about the principle of clauses 1, 50 and 68, and I appreciate that perhaps I am in the minority. I will talk to what I see as the principle of those clauses and put on the record where I agree with the Minister and the shadow Minister. I will also give international examples that we should bear in mind, particularly in relation to the scope of “tobacco products”, which I think is wrong in these clauses.

We talk about a smoke-free generation. If we were to tweak that slightly and call it a “cigarette-free generation”, I would share the aim of the Government and the previous Government; that is laudable pretty much every which way. The Minister, the shadow Minister and Members from across the Committee have made eloquent contributions about the damage that smoking cigarettes does to people over many years. It clearly should be a priority of a Government of any colour to reduce cigarette smoking significantly. As my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon eloquently said, we have made significant progress on that. Yes, there has been legislation, but the change has also been cultural. The legislation has been important. Government Members made the point to me earlier that some of the arguments I have used I might have used against previous legislation that sought to put barriers between people and smoking. But the cultural element that my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon talked about is deeply embedded in most young people today.

That is why, despite sharing with the Government the aim of moving to a cigarette-free generation, I do not think I can quite get over the principle of what they are doing to civil liberties in this Bill. We are on the journey to a cigarette-free generation anyway, so why would they need to use—I do not mean this in an incendiary way, although they might take it that way—quite draconian powers? I would say that that is what this is.

[Andrew Gwynne]

A simple question: whose civil liberties are we refusing?

[Jack Rankin]

Very simply, in the future, we will create two tiers of adults. Those people are children today, and it is right that in law we prohibit them from smoking, because they cannot make these responsible decisions, but once someone passes the age of 18, we as a society, generally speaking, accept that if they want to make bad choices, they are their bad choices.

[Andrew Gwynne]

With rights come responsibilities. People have the responsibility both to look after themselves and to not be overly burdensome on the state. We know that the cost of tobacco is borne hugely by the taxpayer. Does the hon. Member therefore not agree that the Bill seeks a very reasonable balance? The draconian measure would be to ban tobacco full stop. The Bill says that those for whom tobacco is not legal today will never be able to purchase it, but everybody else—those who have the civil liberty to purchase and consume tobacco—can do it till the day they die.

[Jack Rankin]

I take the Minister’s point that in a society in which we are looked after by our NHS, to which we all contribute, which is free at the point of use and which I am sure all of us across the House support, when someone smokes and creates a burden on society through health or social care, that is the responsibility of us all.

Where I think the difference lies is where we make a moral choice. I have heard different figures for the cost from cigarettes. There are different studies. I have heard numbers as low as £20 billion, but I think that today the Minister used £80 billion when talking about productivity. I think that should be calculated properly and appropriately with evidence, but if that is the cost, that is what we should levy in excise duty, at which point the people who impose that burden are the people paying it. That is where I would go, in principle. I think that if we go beyond that point, we are starting to make a moral decision on behalf of others.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

I thank the hon. Member for his point. Forgive me if I did say it was easy, but I try to pick my words carefully, and I do not think I did say that. I said they had agency, and that is a different point.

Linked to that is the fact that too often—not just on this issue—we talk about waving our magic wand with legislation to make things illegal. But that is not the way that the world works. I am concerned that there is the potential, with draconian legislation such as this, to exacerbate the illicit trade in tobacco, which will reduce the effectiveness of the regulations and the public health messages.

[Andrew Gwynne]

At this rate, I am going to start referring to the hon. Gentleman as the hon. Member for the Institute of Economic Affairs—I am sure he has got the briefing. He probably sees that as a compliment, but believe me, it really is not. He talks about illicit trade, but let us talk facts. The last time there was a major piece of tobacco control in this country those same arguments were made, but the illicit trade fell by 25%. There is absolutely no evidence that, with the appropriate enforcement—through His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, border control and trading standards—there will be any increase in illicit trade as a consequence of the Bill.

[Jack Rankin]

Does the Minister perhaps not see the difficulty with the fact that we will be out of international lockstep with everybody? My understanding is that both New Zealand and Malaysia introduced a generational ban policy, and both have been repealed.

[Jack Rankin]

I am well aware that that is the case. Part of the reason for that change in Government—although I do not want to overplay the significance of this singular issue—was that the incoming Government made an argument about the practicalities of enforcing such a law. Frankly, that is a significant concern of mine.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Before the hon. Member moves off his point about the international picture, I think it is a point of pride that the United Kingdom—all four nations —will be the world leader. We thought we were going to be in second place behind New Zealand. I pity New Zealand, given the predicament it finds itself in, because it was leading the way. However, this Government—building on the actions of the last Government—will be the world leader. I reassure the hon. Member that, as I saw when I was representing the United Kingdom at the G20 Health Ministers summit in Rio de Janeiro late last year, the world is queuing up to look at what we do here. They all want to implement these measures. They wished us the best of luck and want this to work. We are going to make it work and lead the way in the world.

[Jack Rankin]

I sympathise with what the Minister says about the world wanting us to make it work. I will make an analogy that I think is directly relevant. My expertise before joining this House was in renewables development. The United Kingdom, particularly under this Government, has been quite aggressive on renewables; the Conservative party was quite aggressive on them too, and the new Government have come in, continued those policies and been more aggressive. The Government are clear that they want to be world leaders, but in the past week the United Kingdom was incredibly close to blackouts.

If you are a leader and you do something successfully, whether on renewables or cigarettes, you may well lead the world forward, and the Minister is right to say that other countries would want to follow us on this issue. However, there is an under-spoken truth about being a leader, and perhaps being first. Clearly, the Minister is passionate about the issue, as is clear in not just what he says, but how he says it; he wants the United Kingdom to lead on this, and I am sure he will be as forceful as possible. But a leader is also a warning if they do not succeed. If we make moves that are too draconian, too quick or over-eager on energy, and we get it wrong, that could mean blackouts. If that happens because we have taken an aggressive approach, no one will follow us. We will be a warning. For leaders, it goes both ways.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am sorry to prolong the debate, Mr Dowd, but the hon. Gentleman should believe in his country with a bit more passion. The patriotic case for leading the way on tobacco control is clear, and the world has been looking for some time at the United Kingdom and the measures that we have brought in over the past two decades. They have been incremental steps to get us to the point where we are absolutely determined, and where it is a viable proposition, that this country will be smoke-free. The hon. Gentleman should believe in this country a bit more, back the Bill and show the world that the real freedom is freedom from addiction to tobacco.

[Jack Rankin]

I thank the Minister for his passionate remarks, which I am obviously not going to take lying down. I agree wholeheartedly that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the greatest country in the world, but before I try to make some progress, I might humbly suggest to him that a lot of that greatness may be based on the primacy of the individual and our rights to get on with our lives.