Support for Ukraine and Countering Threats from Russia

Debate between Ian Paisley and John Howell

Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Commons Chamber

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

When this crisis started, I looked at the areas for which I have responsibility. My outrage was enormous that the Council of Europe, which is responsible for the rule of law, democracy and human rights, still contained a country that abuses all of them, namely Russia.

Yes, I am emotional about this. I am emotional because I have long campaigned for Russia to be chucked out of the Council of Europe for not following any of its guidance to members. One good thing about the Council of Europe is that we get to know other parliamentarians from across Europe, and we know Ukrainian parliamentarians because we work with them, because we sit with them and because we talk with them.

I was sent a picture the other day by a Ukrainian MP—I will name him because he has named himself—called Oleksiy Goncharenko. He was in full military kit and carrying a Kalashnikov. That really brought it home to me. I thought to myself, “If we were attacked, would I put on full military uniform and go out with a rifle to defend this place?” I hoped I would, and my heart went out to Oleksiy Goncharenko because of all he is doing and because of his bravery in standing up to it.

I spoke very strongly in the debate at the Council of Europe on suspending Russia, and I did so with the backing of the delegation because, as has already been mentioned, it is so much better that we operate on a cross-party basis. I have always tried to run the delegation as a genuinely cross-party operation.

I would particularly like to thank two people who spoke very forcefully at the meeting of the Committee of Ministers—the second Chamber of the Council of Europe—and had to vote on this issue. The first is my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger), and the second is not a Member of this House but our permanent representative at the Council of Europe who spoke very strongly and gave a very clear idea that Britain would vote to suspend Russia. During that debate, I also had to put up with listening to people such as Pyotr Tolstoy, who leads the Russian delegation, and who said that Ukraine had nuclear weapons that were pointing at Russia. He lied—it does not have nuclear weapons and it is not pointing any at Russia. Yet that was the message he gave out.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

As a member of the Council of Europe, may I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the leadership he gives to members of the British delegation? He is steadfast and decisive in his work, and he has achieved a result that Europe should celebrate, because it was his efforts and those of his colleagues that put Russia out last week. I think that has been decisive. Will he say something about the punishment that is now going to be meted out to the Council of Europe in terms of financial penalty? We should urge Her Majesty’s Government to give more resources to the Council of Europe in that regard.

[John Howell]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks and for raising the point about what will happen in respect of the financial shortfall that will occur when Russia refuses to pay its dues to the Council of Europe. I have already had discussions and I make this plea to the Government: we cannot do this job in part. We have suspended Russia from the Council of Europe, but we cannot let the Council of Europe go down to the difficulties that will occur as a result of the Russians; we need to be prepared to step in and make up the difference that will come about when they do not pay their dues. The amount is not huge. Our permanent representative gave me the estimate that the amount we would have to pay is somewhere between €4 million a year and €9 million a year, depending on how this is calculated; it is a rounding error whichever way one calculates it. Therefore, we should accept that and agree to pay it. The French have already agreed, as have the Germans and the Dutch. Why have we not done so? Will we do that pretty quickly?

Lastly, in the intervention that I made during the statement by the Home Secretary, I offered the delegation’s services in terms of being able to talk to the neighbouring countries of Ukraine and to work with them to sort out the problems of migration. We have, in the Council of Europe, a body that looks after migration very well. We do not need to reinvent it; we have it there, and let us use it to the best of our ability.