Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 4

Debate between Ian Paisley and Emma Little Pengelly

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Of course, as I have said, the hon. Lady—my hon. Friend—has a particular and well-known interest in this, but the Members who brought forward the legislation are not here, and I think that is a fair point to make. It is important for my constituents out there watching this event to understand who really cares about these issues, and to see that we are left to mop up the political issues that Members bring before us.

I am sorry to say to the Minister that this report on the Executive Formation Act and gambling is utterly irrelevant. It says that there is no work done in this area. In 2016, the Department of Health, and then the Department for Communities and Local Government, commissioned a report on the prevalence of gambling. They found that the levels of gambling in Northern Ireland were slightly higher—about 2% higher—than in England, about equal with Scotland, and slightly higher than in Wales. That is not mentioned in the report. It did not talk about those issues of prevalence. It was about setting down a measurement of where the issue of gambling rests. We should be targeting issues that it has identified, such as how we cope with problem gambling—the actual figures.

Facts are stubborn things. The facts were recorded by the Departments, and that should have been reflected in this report. I do not blame the Government for bringing forward an utterly irrelevant report. They were asked to commission a report in a fit of pique by some Members of this House, and now they have rushed into bringing forward a report that is irrelevant because it has not even dealt with some of the issues that exist.

The laws that pertain to gaming and gambling in Northern Ireland are already very different from those that obtain in the rest of the United Kingdom. Indeed, this matter, as Members across the House have rightly said, ought to be left to the Assembly unless we are prepared to introduce a root-and-branch change to all gaming and gambling legislation in Northern Ireland and make it identical to the rest the UK. Let us look at where things would then be different. For example, in English high streets we see four or five competing gambling companies running the same shops, neighbour to neighbour, on the same street, whereas in Northern Ireland we see maybe one gaming or gambling shop in a street, and then several streets away there might be another one.

I have heard Members of this House demanding that that sort of thing should happen in England. The fact is that it happens in Northern Ireland by agreement among the betting shop owners. There are, in effect, only about three major betting shop owners in Northern Ireland, and they have made that agreement among themselves. Yet that is not reflected in the report either. Would we like to import what has happened in Northern Ireland, which is a good thing, to the rest of the United Kingdom, or would we like to import what has happened in England and have numerous betting shops lined along street after street in Northern Ireland? I think that my constituents, and all my colleagues, would object to seeing their streets having loads of these shops. We do not have the prevalence of these shops that England has. We have no Sunday betting at all. In England, people can bet seven days a week. It is not possible to go into a betting shop in Northern Ireland on the Sabbath and bet; we have that restriction. Will we just import those regulations into Northern Ireland and change Northern Ireland’s culture? That would be crazy.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

Although some aspects of the legislation in Northern Ireland are perhaps positive, many aspects require reform. Does my hon. Friend agree that, although there is no gambling in shops on Sundays, given the evolution of gambling—for example, online and through devices—the situation has moved on, but our laws have not, and we now need and are committed to bringing forward new, fit-for-purpose legislation?

[Ian Paisley]

Yes. I will come back to that point, because it is very important that we change the law in that way.

I turn to the matter of FOBTs. It has been said in the House tonight—wrongly—that people can walk into any gambling shop in Northern Ireland and place a £100 bet. They cannot. Betting on FOBTs is now the same by agreement in Northern Ireland as it is in England, with only up to a £2 stake. Whether we would like to see that stopped altogether is a completely separate matter. The fact is that Northern Ireland’s betting shops regulated themselves. They recognised that this was changing, and instead of waiting, as they could have, until the Northern Ireland Assembly came back and continuing to rake in the funds that FOBTs would have given them, they decided to self-regulate and impose that restriction themselves. It is therefore not possible for someone to walk into a betting shop and place those bets.

People can, however, walk into an illegal club and place bets on FOBTs. They can walk into a pub that should not have FOBTs and place those bets. Most of those pubs and clubs are run by paramilitary organisations, but is there any regulation or policing of those matters? I understand that when the betting shop owners ring up and report those illegal clubs, dens and vices, the police say, “That’s too much hassle for us. That could cause major problems. We don’t want to run into the paramilitaries on those particular issues.” That is where the real problem lies, and that is where we should be focusing our attention and pushing to ensure that those illegal activities are stamped out.

The major contribution that betting shops make to horse-racing in particular in Northern Ireland is very different from how horse-racing is regulated here on the mainland. Horse-racing is regulated through a completely different system. The only reason we have a racetrack—one functioning racetrack—now in Northern Ireland is that betting shops have to pay a levy. Every single shop that exists in Northern Ireland has to pay, I think, £1,600 per year to the company that runs the racetrack. If we regulate betting in Northern Ireland in the same way it is regulated in the rest of the United Kingdom, racing will come to an end in Northern Ireland. That is a fact of life. As the betting shops will tell you, people bet more on athletics, football and other things than they do on horse-racing. The betting shops subsidise the horse-racing industry in Northern Ireland, and that would go.

Those are the facts. People can make their own judgment on whether that is a good thing, but those matters need to be addressed, and they are not addressed through this report. If we bring things into line with the rest of the United Kingdom, those would be the impacts. The big issue is illegal gambling. That has to be addressed, and the sooner it is addressed, the better.

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) put her finger on the key point: we have a largely unregulated industry. It is done by voluntary agreement. It is run by 35-year-old legislation. That is completely and totally unacceptable, and it needs to be brought up to date. But there is only one place competent to bring it up to date. It is not this Chamber—look who is interested. Let us not kid ourselves. It is the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is why the Opposition Members who pressed the Government to legislate should have realised how big a mess they were creating, because they are not addressing the real issue. That 1985 legislation is so antiquated that only the Assembly is fit to grapple with it.

That is why we would like the Assembly to be encouraged. That is why I encourage the Minister, as I did in an earlier debate in the House, to call a meeting of the Assembly tomorrow at 10 am and see who turns up. My party will turn up in total and other parties will turn up, but I bet that not one Member from Sinn Féin will turn up, because they have the Government and this House over the barrel. They do not have to turn up, and that is where the real disgrace lies.

Nationally, as my hon. Friend intimated, the issue is online gaming. Someone drunk can pick up a phone and gamble away to their heart’s content. They can lose their wage by playing with one of these toys or a gaming machine all night. Someone drunk cannot go into a betting shop and cannot be served alcohol in a betting shop, but they can drink away and play on a phone. Where does the money go when they play on this? It goes to Spain and other parts of the world, and the Government reap no benefit from it whatsoever. Unless the Government grapple with this issue, the companies that run online gaming are going to make the most out of gambling, and the taxpayer and the tax collector are going to receive zero.

The report touches on one other absolutely crucial matter, which is that there is no support for people who require treatment. The hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) touched on that. It is a disgrace that there is no assistance. The Government are quite happy to lift the levy from betting shops, but put that levy elsewhere. That money should go towards the treatment of people who are problem-gambling. I will leave those thoughts with you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 7

Debate between Ian Paisley and Emma Little Pengelly

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

I understand that we are speaking about the Northern Ireland Executive formation and the reports flowing from that. The Secretary of State introduced his comments tonight by referring to the lack of an Assembly. The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee emphasised that issue as well. I am trying to get the Assembly back, and I am outlining the way in which the Secretary of State could take active measures this evening by phoning the 90 Members of the Assembly and getting them back in the Assembly tomorrow morning. That could bring about the changes that the Secretary of State wants to see—that I want to see and that people in this place want to see—but I fear that that call will land on deaf ears. I hope that he decides to do that, and I hope that he takes up that chance.

I welcome what the Secretary of State said in his remarks. I believe that he is passionate and that he does care about the victims of institutional abuse. Indeed, I know, following on from the meetings that he had with them in August, that many of them meet regularly with Government Members, and they reported back to us the enthusiasm and the genuine concern that he has. I happen to think that it is important that we put that on the record, but it is also right and proper that he is pushed on a few areas. I ask him to give us a time, to give us a specific date and to tell us when this will happen. He should not let this slip any further. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) made the point in her excellent speech that we cannot allow this slippage to continue. These people are dying. These victims need immediate help and there is nothing to stop the Secretary of State from providing that.

I wish to leave some very specific questions with the Secretary of State: who is ultimately going to pay the compensation? The hon. Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) made the crucial point that this abuse was carried out vastly during a period of direct rule. Therefore, the responsibility and the onus must fall on this place to come up with the compensation. The Northern Ireland budget could not cope with—probably—the extent of that payment.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way on that important point. It is undoubtedly the case, when one reads that report, that there is a direct rule implication—an implication for this place. Does he agree that there is also a significant obligation on the institutions, including the Roman Catholic Church? They have contributed to compensation schemes in relation to these inquiries in all other jurisdictions as far as I am aware, so does he agree that the Secretary of State should engage in those early conversations with the institutions to ensure that that contribution is made?

[Ian Paisley]

I am more than happy with that. Indeed, I have spoken in this House in the past about that very point. One of the ways that this could be addressed expeditiously is by the institutions actually making amends—by way of payment, by way of apology and by way of an actual practical measure. I think that, without doubt, that is the case. There should be something that the Secretary of State can do to facilitate such a process. I know that there are ways that he can facilitate that, and I encourage him to take them up. There is a crucial point here. Ultimately, if the Government pay money in compensation, they may, later on, get that money back through the institutions. They should be pursuing those institutions for the abuse inflicted on those innocent victims.

Professor Patricia Lundy, who gave evidence to our Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on these issues, spelled out what she believed the costs could run to, and they are staggering. It is essential that the Government grapple with this issue immediately. There should be no surprises when they come to legislating. We do not want to have to delay legislation further, because we have now discovered what the costs are. The costs are mammoth. The costs will have to be dealt with.

May I also speak for some of the survivor groups? All of those who have given us evidence and spoken to us directly have said that they run their organisations on a shoestring. Clearly, they will have to keep up the momentum by informing their people, encouraging their people and being a shoulder for their people. Therefore, some sort of assistance in the interim period—until the legislation is actually enacted—would be very beneficial indeed. Finally, it would be brilliant if the Secretary of State published the Bill, put it out there and brought it into this place so that we had the opportunity to enact it without any further delay.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Ian Paisley and Emma Little Pengelly

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 9th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

Thank you, Dame Rosie, for giving me the opportunity to speak during the Committee stage of this important Bill.

This Bill is called the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill, yet the debate has been pretty thin on how an Executive could be formed again in Northern Ireland. In fact, we have had a debate about every other issue under the sun except what we are supposed to be debating. That is no reflection, of course, on the Chair; it is because of the amendments that have been tabled to try to frustrate the very important issue of how we form an Executive in Northern Ireland.

People give us lip service. They tell us, “We want to have an Executive in Northern Ireland. We want the Executive brought back.” Here is a Bill that would let us do that, give impetus to the negotiators and give a fair wind to what is going on in Belfast and in Stormont at this particular time but, instead of being an encourager or facilitator of those talks, this House—during the debate today and yesterday—has actually become a frustrator of those talks. It wishes to frustrate them for the obvious reason that it wants to debate other issues that could interfere and affect the strange but important counterbalance required between the parties to encourage them to get in to the talks, to make progress and to ensure they are not put off by what is happening outside the Assembly.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

It is fair to say that we have entered into the substance of some of these issues here today, and everybody is clear that the DUP and others in the House have strong views on the substance of a number of those issues. However, it is also clear that what we are asking people to do is to vote on the process—an inadequate process. Fundamental change by way of Back-Bench amendments is not the way to do this. It does not facilitate scrutiny and it will impact on the talks process. We can revisit this appropriately in October, if need be.

[Ian Paisley]

My hon. Friend makes an appropriate point. Either we decide to direct-rule all powers in relation to Northern Ireland and deal with the issues honestly, openly and transparently here, or else we give a fair wind to the Assembly, allow it to get up and running, and allow it to be responsible for the affairs it is supposed to be responsible for. Having a foot in both camps, and saying we might legislate on these issues and we may have an impact on those issues, sometimes gives an advantage to one party in Northern Ireland over the other. That is where the process today, being driven by Back Benchers, on some of the amendments is totally disgraceful and wrong. I know—I have said this as clearly as I possibly can—that that is not the intention of many Members and that they all want to see stability back in Northern Ireland, but that is the effect of what they are doing. The impact of what they are doing will have that counterbalance on the situation in Northern Ireland.

A year or so ago, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee published a report, “Devolution and democracy in Northern Ireland”, on dealing with the democratic deficit, which listed 67 issues that were in deficit and required to be addressed. Not one of those issues has been the subject of a Back-Bench amendment today—not one of them—yet that is the list; that is the authorised version list of what needs to be put in place to address the democratic deficit. But oh, no: we have other subject matters, which parties here know are part and parcel of the ongoing debate in Northern Ireland and of the ongoing negotiation in Northern Ireland, and they could hold other parties to ransom if they are dealt with here in advance of the outcome of the talks process in Northern Ireland. I think parties should waken up and recognise that they should be facilitating that process, not frustrating it.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Ian Paisley and Emma Little Pengelly

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 8th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Emma Little Pengelly]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Stella Creasy]

I have listened, and I want to meet my obligation to not make a long speech—an obligation that we have all been trying to uphold this evening. I promise that I am coming to an end, and I have taken interventions.

Northern Ireland Budget (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill

Debate between Ian Paisley and Emma Little Pengelly

2nd reading: House of Commons & 3rd reading: House of Commons
Tuesday 20th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

It is good that we, as the country that I think drinks the most tea per head of population, are now exporting coffee, and to the largest market in the world.

We are going to have an influx of golf tourists coming to Northern Ireland for the Irish Open, and indeed the Open in 2019. The organisation—the Royal and Ancient—but more importantly the golf clubs in Northern Ireland, in particular Royal Portrush golf club, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), will need certainty about the finance for them and for those tournaments. Will the Minister ensure immediately, so that there is no delay, that those organisations get certainty and clarity about financial expenditure for golf tourism? This is going to be the single largest shop window for Northern Ireland—a very positive shop window—and the expenditure therefore needs to be properly underwritten by the Government.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we have a number of excellent ambassadors for golf in Northern Ireland? They include our very own Rory McIlroy—congratulations to him. With him back on form, as demonstrated at the weekend, and winning across the world, this is the perfect time to maximise golf tourism in Northern Ireland.

[Ian Paisley]

We always used to mention the triumvirate of Rory, Darren and Graeme, but now there are so many good golfers in Northern Ireland that we do not want to get into naming them all, because we might offend one by leaving them out. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we have a great golf ambassador in Rory, and there are many others.