Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 7

Emma Little Pengelly Excerpts

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Emma Little Pengelly (Belfast South) (DUP)]

I will endeavour to be as pithy as I can be, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I thank the House for bringing this debate forward today. I expressed my concern just before the break—the adjournment or whatever we are calling it—that the Northern Ireland report debates had been contracted into a short period. It was woefully short, given the important issues we need to raise and discuss, so I welcome the fact that the Government have brought the debates back to the House today.

I am disappointed by the lack of representation across the Chamber, particularly on the Benches in front of me, as many people come to this House to talk about Northern Ireland in relation to Brexit and other matters. These are incredibly important issues, which, as Members from across the House have highlighted, touch on the most vulnerable in our society.

Many years ago, I sat in a room where I first heard the plea from victims and survivors of historical abuse for an investigation and inquiry into what had happened to them. Everybody in that room—there were senior politicians from across the parties, including Martin McGuinness and the right hon. Peter Robinson and officials and politicians—was struck by the pain and anguish of the victims and survivors of that abuse. The thing that stood out most in that discussion was the key line repeated by many victims: “We have not been listened to.” Some of the abuse took place many decades beforehand. They told the politicians and civil servants on that occasion, as they have many times since, that as children and young people they were not believed. They told them that as adults, first when they were struggling through the many challenges of their early adulthood and now, when many of them are older and facing a number of challenges with the ageing they are experiencing, they were not listened to or believed—this happened throughout their lifetime. They told them that they were demeaned, not just as children, but throughout their lives, in terms of the painful stories and experiences they needed to tell.

I knew from that first meeting that the then First Minister and the then Deputy First Minister genuinely felt an empathy with those victims. I was a policy adviser at that time, and they turned to me and the other civil servants and advisers in the room and tasked us with going away to do something to help and support the victims as swiftly as possible. During that period, despite all the other discussions, arguments and differences we may have had, all the political parties worked hard together—quickly—to put in the terms of reference. A lot of work went into that. I was part of the original project board, with civil servants, and we looked at many of the different experiences of inquiries from all over the world.

We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the late Sir Anthony Hart, the first judge I appeared before when he was the recorder of Belfast. He was a fearsome individual with a fearsome reputation, but he was keen on two things—he wanted things to be done effectively and efficiently. He was hard on the young solicitors and barristers who appeared before him, but for good reason, because at the heart of every case that he looked at was a victim who was going through a court system. He hated delay and unnecessary bureaucracy, and he brought those values with him. He was absolutely the right man for that job and I pay tribute to the incredible work he has done. When I have spoken to the many victims and survivors, they have all said the same: “Sir Anthony Hart listened to me. He made me feel valued and vindicated. He genuinely made this a victim-centred process, and that is exactly what we wanted.”

May I also pay tribute to the incredible team of officials, many of whom I worked with throughout that period and many of whom worked on after I left that policy adviser/special adviser role? They worked incredibly hard to get this inquiry up and going, and it was conducted incredibly efficiently and effectively by all the civil servants involved, led by the chair and the team around that. It will be a model for people to look at internationally.

One thing we did was to introduce, in legislation, a time limit for the inquiry, which is rare in these inquiries. We suggested it should be two and a half years, but with a possible extension of a further 12 months. Sir Anthony Hart said clearly that he was up for that challenge, and he fulfilled it. It was a time-limited inquiry and he produced the report on time, which is incredible.

What happened after that is deeply disappointing. As I have said in this House before, we always knew when the report was due, because of the time-limited nature of the inquiry. Sinn Féin knew when the report was due. We liaised periodically with the chair, who made it clear that there would not be delay and that he would be giving the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister the report. I pleaded with Sinn Féin colleagues. I said, “Look, if you have to collapse the Assembly, we need to do two things before you do that.” They were going to make that decision, with the resignation of the late Martin McGuiness. The first thing was to pass a budget for Northern Ireland. The second thing was to wait two weeks to allow this report to be received and agreed by the Executive, as that would have facilitated the recommendations being brought forward. They were not prepared to wait.

The serious question that needs to be asked is: what was accomplished by pulling down the Assembly two weeks earlier than it could have been brought down? Those two weeks could have transformed many of the issues in Northern Ireland. I say that without going into all the reasons or justifications for bringing the Assembly down, but I firmly believe that bringing it down two weeks before this report was due— Sinn Féin knew from the beginning of this inquiry when it was due—was wrong, and it left victims in a very vulnerable state.

Today, however, I want this contribution to be about the victims: like the inquiry, which was victim-centred, I want this contribution to be about them and not about the other parties and what happened in the past. I respectfully ask the Secretary of State to be brave, make a decision, and go ahead and do this swiftly, because the people who are missing out and suffering are the genuine victims and survivors, who were incredibly brave. They stood up and contributed to the inquiry. They told their stories, despite all the legacy of the decades of hurt from not being believed. We know, from all the evidence and from talking to people, that, for those individuals, telling their stories is incredibly painful, as it brings back everything they have been through. It is so hard for them to go into that institutional setting; despite all the things that the late Sir Anthony Hart did to make them feel comfortable, it must have been a challenging and difficult experience for them, and we must recognise that. After going through that—after their bravery—they have been left out there without the much-needed help and support that they require.

May I say, Secretary of State, that when we think about what happened, we see that these were young children? I listen to many, many of their stories. Many of them came from very challenging backgrounds. When they came into these institutions what they needed was love, dignity, comfort and support, but instead, as we see when we read that report, they got harshness and pain. They were demeaned and demoralised, starved and beaten.

Who in the House could not feel a genuine empathy for and desire to help those victims and survivors? This House has the power to do that. It has broken the convention in respect of legislating on devolved matters. I respectfully say to the Secretary of State that this is an important issue on which we are all in agreement, so please be brave. Please bring forward the legislation—and do it swiftly, because victims are suffering.

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[Ian Paisley]

I understand that we are speaking about the Northern Ireland Executive formation and the reports flowing from that. The Secretary of State introduced his comments tonight by referring to the lack of an Assembly. The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee emphasised that issue as well. I am trying to get the Assembly back, and I am outlining the way in which the Secretary of State could take active measures this evening by phoning the 90 Members of the Assembly and getting them back in the Assembly tomorrow morning. That could bring about the changes that the Secretary of State wants to see—that I want to see and that people in this place want to see—but I fear that that call will land on deaf ears. I hope that he decides to do that, and I hope that he takes up that chance.

I welcome what the Secretary of State said in his remarks. I believe that he is passionate and that he does care about the victims of institutional abuse. Indeed, I know, following on from the meetings that he had with them in August, that many of them meet regularly with Government Members, and they reported back to us the enthusiasm and the genuine concern that he has. I happen to think that it is important that we put that on the record, but it is also right and proper that he is pushed on a few areas. I ask him to give us a time, to give us a specific date and to tell us when this will happen. He should not let this slip any further. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) made the point in her excellent speech that we cannot allow this slippage to continue. These people are dying. These victims need immediate help and there is nothing to stop the Secretary of State from providing that.

I wish to leave some very specific questions with the Secretary of State: who is ultimately going to pay the compensation? The hon. Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) made the crucial point that this abuse was carried out vastly during a period of direct rule. Therefore, the responsibility and the onus must fall on this place to come up with the compensation. The Northern Ireland budget could not cope with—probably—the extent of that payment.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way on that important point. It is undoubtedly the case, when one reads that report, that there is a direct rule implication—an implication for this place. Does he agree that there is also a significant obligation on the institutions, including the Roman Catholic Church? They have contributed to compensation schemes in relation to these inquiries in all other jurisdictions as far as I am aware, so does he agree that the Secretary of State should engage in those early conversations with the institutions to ensure that that contribution is made?

[Ian Paisley]

I am more than happy with that. Indeed, I have spoken in this House in the past about that very point. One of the ways that this could be addressed expeditiously is by the institutions actually making amends—by way of payment, by way of apology and by way of an actual practical measure. I think that, without doubt, that is the case. There should be something that the Secretary of State can do to facilitate such a process. I know that there are ways that he can facilitate that, and I encourage him to take them up. There is a crucial point here. Ultimately, if the Government pay money in compensation, they may, later on, get that money back through the institutions. They should be pursuing those institutions for the abuse inflicted on those innocent victims.

Professor Patricia Lundy, who gave evidence to our Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on these issues, spelled out what she believed the costs could run to, and they are staggering. It is essential that the Government grapple with this issue immediately. There should be no surprises when they come to legislating. We do not want to have to delay legislation further, because we have now discovered what the costs are. The costs are mammoth. The costs will have to be dealt with.

May I also speak for some of the survivor groups? All of those who have given us evidence and spoken to us directly have said that they run their organisations on a shoestring. Clearly, they will have to keep up the momentum by informing their people, encouraging their people and being a shoulder for their people. Therefore, some sort of assistance in the interim period—until the legislation is actually enacted—would be very beneficial indeed. Finally, it would be brilliant if the Secretary of State published the Bill, put it out there and brought it into this place so that we had the opportunity to enact it without any further delay.

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[Emma Little Pengelly]

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that in all the discussions at the time of the inquiry—when we looked at the inquiry in the Republic of Ireland and inquiries elsewhere, where the institutions made a significant contribution—it was the clear understanding of all parties that the institutions would be requested and required to give their contribution as well?

[Sammy Wilson]

My hon. Friend is quite right. Indeed, that was always the understanding. I note that the report says that research is being undertaken into how the issue has been handled elsewhere. I would like the Secretary of State not just to research, but to tell us what approaches have been made to the bodies at which the finger of blame was pointed for this abuse. Is it simply that there will be an academic study of what is to be done, or have approaches actually been made? If they have, what has the response been?

The report says that there will be a mediation mechanism to decide how much should be paid by the various institutions and that the parties will have to submit themselves to a final arbitration. All that is fine—of course we have to have a mechanism—but there is no indication that civil servants in Northern Ireland are making approaches to the institutions, knowing what the view of the Executive was on this matter; and it is important that that is done.

I have one final point, which has been made time and again today. I do not believe that the Northern Ireland Assembly will be up and running on 21 October because Sinn Féin, which wanted some of the changes that have been put through this House and that have a date attached to them, will not want the institutions back up and running for all that to be taken back into the Assembly and for the debate to be reopened. That was a fatal flaw in the Labour party’s decision to interfere with a devolved issue and to dabble in the future of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Labour Members were warned about this, but they ignored that warning, and now they lament that we cannot get this issue dealt with as far as the victims are concerned.

The Assembly will not be up and running because, for those who wanted the changes to abortion and gay marriage legislation, there is every incentive not to have it up and running. They are showing no indication that they will even engage in talks. It is important that the Secretary of State recognises that and ignores any evidence he might be getting from the Northern Ireland Office about what might annoy Sinn Féin. He should be bringing to this House legislation that compensates and gives some redress—as much as money ever can give redress—to that individual who met me in a street in Belfast and told me how, as a boy, he was abandoned, he was not listened to and he was hurt, and how he still carries that hurt today.