RSE Curriculum: Northern Ireland Schools

Debate between Ian Paisley and Carla Lockhart

Tuesday 12th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Carla Lockhart]

I want to get into that, in detail. The law on RSE in England changed three years ago and since then public concern has been building steam. Mistakes have been made, so much so that, as the hon. Lady says, the Government have had to bring forward their review of RSE and appoint an external body to assist the Department for Education here in its review.

What concerns me now is the risk of the same errors being repeated in Northern Ireland. I am asking the Government to take steps to ensure that we have a credible approach to RSE in Northern Ireland, which parents, teachers, schools and our community as a whole can have confidence in. Unfortunately, the Secretary of State has got off to a very bad start with his approach to introducing the regulations with a lack of consultation, scrutiny and the pretence of CEDAW—the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women—being used to justify the move.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend must have been delighted at the turnout of over 1,000 schoolteachers, boards of governors and political representatives in her constituency last night, campaigning on this issue of letting kids be kids. Is that not the important message? As she rightly said, interfere in the education of our children at your peril. It will not be tolerated by people across the community in Northern Ireland. Is that not the message the Secretary of State should hear loud and clear?

[Carla Lockhart]

Absolutely. Parents, teachers and boards of governors are angry, frustrated and really concerned. That has been demonstrated through meetings held locally in Northern Ireland.

I am about operating in the realms of reality. I am not about platitudes or throwaway lines that will be forgotten. I am about protecting our children and young people. I come asking the Government to listen to the concerns and to make amends. The changes as per the Northern Ireland RSE 2023 regulations are deeply concerning. They will change RSE teaching in Northern Ireland in post-primary schools, forcing the teaching of contraception and abortion. That, coupled with the long-term agenda of implementing the RSE progression framework, has invoked so much anger and genuine concern.

When it comes to teaching about abortion, the Government have sought to reassure us that it should take place in

“a factual way that does not advocate, nor oppose, a particular view on the moral and ethical considerations of abortion”.

But such assurances are impossible to deliver. The very act of teaching about abortion is not morally neutral. It normalises it, presenting the subject—the taking of innocent human lives at their most vulnerable stage—as a mere moral dilemma about which people may be free to disagree, whereas for those who are pro-life, human lives are at stake. Further, it diminishes the value of life because if young people are taught about the legal availability of abortion and how to access it, they are more likely to do so in greater numbers. We have seen that in England and Wales since the Abortion Act 1967 was introduced. Indeed, the widely used Sexwise RSE resource in England and Wales even teaches girls that they can go and do it privately without their parents knowing—so much for assurances on parental consultation.

The Secretary of State also sought to assure us that education on so-called

“sexual and reproductive health rights”

should be “scientifically accurate”. Again, I would point out that this is a cause of significant contention. For example, many people in Northern Ireland and many scientists would contend that an unborn baby is, scientifically, a human being. The Education for Choice website, recommended as an RSE resource in England and Wales, asserts that

“before the limit of viability…the foetus is not considered a human being”.

Such a claim is highly contentious and, I would suggest, neither neutral nor scientific. The point is that it is not possible to be neutral on this issue, where science and ethics are interwoven. It is highly likely that resources in Northern Ireland will therefore end up being biased, as in England and Wales. In short, these are matters which should be left to parents, not schools. RSE is not just like any other school subject. It deals with issues on which there are a wide range of views and perspectives. It is a highly sensitive topic that involves very personal issues, and it is critical for parents, teachers and school governors across Northern Ireland to feel confident that the regulations and the guidance now being drawn up recognise that. They need to know that the Government will ensure that schools understand the sensitivity of the topic, and approach it appropriately and in a way that respects the range of views that exist.

Unfortunately, in recent times it has seemed that one view is not respected: that of the Christian, or of the citizen who values life and respects others. The pro-life view is scorned—the view that those who do not want to get pregnant should not have sex, the view that teaches faithfulness in relationships, and the view that subscribes only to the fact that a boy is born a boy and a girl is born a girl and there are not more than 100 different gender ideologies, and that it is ludicrous that people can now identify as cats, dogs and foxes. I say this not to provoke but because these are the views of the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland and throughout this United Kingdom, and unfortunately they appear no longer to be welcome.

The vote on the amendment relating to RSE in Northern Ireland took place on 29 June, and the Secretary of State announced the result that evening in a speech at the PinkNews Belfast summer reception. Let me say seriously that if the aim is to give stakeholders in Northern Ireland confidence that RSE will be balanced and not partisan, objective and not ideological, and sensitive to the communities that schools serve, that was an odd choice.

The position of school governors must be respected. A major part of their role is to safeguard the ethos of schools and ensure that a school serves its local community, and to do so they need a degree of flexibility and freedom to make decisions on the school’s approach and policy. That cannot be dictated in detail from Belfast, still less from Westminster. Indeed, a large proportion of schools in Northern Ireland were not established by Government but by the Churches, and were later transferred—not sold—into Government hands on the understanding that they would continue to provide an education in accordance with their Church foundations. Of course I understand that the Government can now make law on the education that takes place in those schools, as they have now done in respect of teaching on contraception and abortion, but it is crucial for teaching to be handled in a sensitive and balanced manner that does not disempower governors in their important role. That is my first ask: for school governors to have the autonomy that will allow them to produce RSE policy in line with the school ethos.

Most young people in Northern Ireland grow up to form healthy relationships. Many form the stable families that are so important to the upbringing of children, providing the care, personal knowledge and understanding that only a parent can give. Safeguarding is important, and we are right to be alert to the very tragic cases in which parents present a risk of real harm to their children, but those cases are extremely rare—they are the exception to the universal rule that parents make the best parents, not the state—so parents must be given the power to make the final decisions.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Debate between Ian Paisley and Carla Lockhart

2nd reading
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

I take no pleasure in seeing this legislation before the House today, as it sadly represents failure between the Government and the EU to protect the cornerstone of the political institutions in Northern Ireland and the fundamental principle of cross-community consent. It represents a failure to the Unionist people of Northern Ireland and businesses in Northern Ireland, and it continues to put at risk the great Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Today, I want to make it as clear as I can that Unionism does not consent to the protocol or the institutions operating in a business-as-usual manner. Today, Unionism feels aggrieved by the sheer disregard for its concerns. Never before have I experienced such a groundswell of support for our position to hold the line, not give in and take a stand—all phrases we have heard so often from the people we represent. Let us not forget the words of the very author of the Belfast agreement, the late David Trimble, who said:

“Make no mistake about it, the protocol does not safeguard the Good Friday Agreement. It demolishes its central premise by removing the assurance that democratic consent is needed to make any change to the status of Northern Ireland.”

The protocol poses an existential threat to the Belfast agreement and the St Andrews agreement. Despite the time and space afforded by my party leader for the Government and EU to face up to the stark reality and find a new way forward, nothing was done. We had months of minimal action and tinkering around in the hope that the DUP would quietly let it slide. Well, the DUP can be accused of many things, but not of backing down and letting things slide. When we see the economic and constitutional damage the protocol is having on the people of Northern Ireland, we will not let it slide and we will continue to take our stand for the people who are impacted.

Our commitment to devolution throughout that window of opportunity was clear. While we urged people to face up to the political reality, others looked away.

[Ian Paisley]

Does my hon. Friend think it important that those who want full implementation of the protocol take cognisance of a recent report from this House and the House of Lords, which claims that that would halt east-west trade within 48 hours? Is it not the case that the reason why Unionists are staying out is that this protocol damages everybody’s livelihoods in Northern Ireland?

[Carla Lockhart]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend’s point is so well made. The takeaway from that is that it is the industry leads who are saying that the protocol will grind east-west trade to a halt within 48 hours, and that is a stark reality.

Last week I hosted the Minister of State on a visit to my constituency, and I thank him for that visit. He met Wilson’s Country potatoes. Wilson’s is a leading potato brand, but it faces ongoing difficulty arising from the protocol, because Scottish seed potatoes, needed to grow crops of certain varieties that the market demands, are banned from entering Northern Ireland.

Legal Rights to Access Abortion

Debate between Ian Paisley and Carla Lockhart

Monday 28th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[Ian Paisley]

I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman feels it is a dialogue of the deaf; I do not think that is the case. It is important that we are, for the first time in a long time, actually having a sensible debate on this matter, because in numerous debates on abortion in the past, people—principally male Members of the House—have been silenced. They have been called out, heckled and told not to speak on an issue that does not concern them. Indeed, we heard the comment earlier in the debate that behind every abortion is a woman—full stop. No, no, no: behind every pregnancy is not only a woman but the life of the unborn and the male who was involved in that pregnancy. Until we have full engagement and an educational process that addresses those issues and gets this nation into a proper debate on this matter—not in a climate of fear and of, “I’d better not speak out because we’re not allowed to say these things any more; they are too difficult to say if you’re a man”—I am afraid this will be a debate of the deaf, but it does not have to be. That is the point.

[Carla Lockhart]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Men do matter and he is absolutely right to say so. Some 82% of all abortions last year were for women whose marital status was given as single. I commend the men who support their partners and children, and we need more men to do the same. This House is at risk of silencing those men who do stand up and take responsibility for pregnancies.

[Ian Paisley]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point.

In 2022, there were double the number of abortions in Northern Ireland than there were in the previous year. The number doubles each year, and will continue to double, because of the very liberal legislation that is now in place in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Blackpool South (Scott Benton) put on the record that one in four of all pregnancies in the United Kingdom end in abortion. In England and Wales, abortions can take place up to the extreme limit of six months, whereas the European median time limit is three months. We need to have a debate about why we have an extreme time limit and why some people wish to drive it even further, to the point of birth, as a right. I just think that is wrong.

We certainly need to have a debate about why there is so much abortion in the United Kingdom. To go back to the point made by the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), why are second and third-time pregnancies leading to abortion? Why are older women having abortions? Those questions need to be asked. It cannot all be ectopic, it cannot all be rape, it cannot all be incest and it cannot all be miscarriage.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Ian Paisley and Carla Lockhart

Committee stage
Tuesday 19th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

I thank the hon. Member for that point, but I want to make it clear that I listened to the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim, who works with and knows Mike Johnston as well as I do, and he did not make any detrimental comment about Mike himself in any of the comments he made. He referred to other members and other motives, but he did not make any reference, derogatory or otherwise, about Mike Johnston. I think that is very clear. It is unfair to cast those aspersions.

It is not for us as politicians to say, “Oh, we’ll parade this body in front of Parliament; they’re for us.” That goes back to the zero-sum game of politics. Parading the Ulster Farmers Union and saying, “They’re on our side on this point,” is a cop-out of our political responsibilities. We have a duty as politicians to solve this political problem. The protocol is not a dairy milk problem; it has an impact on the dairy milk sector, but the protocol is a political problem that has caused these problems in the sector. We have a responsibility as politicians to solve the problem and to pull together to try to fix it, because it affects Protestant farmers, Catholic farmers and farmers of no religion the same way. It damages the potential for their business, and we should be pulling together to try to fix it. If this Bill does one thing to try to fix it, I will support that as a step in the right direction.

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way; he is certainly in full flow. It is important to strip this debate back to the businesses currently impacted by the protocol. We cannot look ahead of ourselves. Wilson’s Country and Glens of Antrim Potatoes cannot bring seed potatoes in to Northern Ireland from Scotland, and that will ultimately damage the potato industry in Northern Ireland in future years. AJ Power in my own constituency has said that the increase in costs is sixfold and is likely to be more when the UK Government input reduces. My hon. Friend makes an important point that those issues are impacting businesses now, and therefore we need this Bill to resolve some of them.

[Ian Paisley]

The point about seed potatoes is particularly interesting, because that represents the entire community in Northern Ireland—companies that employ right across the community and farms from across the community are all being detrimentally impacted in the same way as a result of the protocol. That is why it needs to be fixed.

We have heard some scaremongering about a mass cull of cows and suddenly milk in Northern Ireland becomes different milk because of paperwork, when the milk is being produced in the same way and the same green grass is being used to feed the cows to produce it. Not only is the milk being produced normally, but the same seeds and crops are brought in to feed the cattle, and it is very clear that none of that will change.

The commercial issues that I referred to and that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim touched on are very interesting: I think there are more dairy cows in County Cork than there are in the whole of Northern Ireland, yet County Cork and the Republic of Ireland still cannot produce enough milk. Therefore, they need a commercial relationship with Northern Ireland dairy farms to help them and to increase and encourage their businesses. The commercial reality is that we have to do business across the island. The idea that suddenly people will be able to say to farms in Northern Ireland, “Well, you can’t do business with us in the Republic of Ireland.”, when Republic of Ireland companies need Northern Ireland farm produce, highlights the commercial reality in all this.

Again, I go back to this point: the protocol is a political problem that is interfering in commercial and farming activity, and we have to pull it away from that and solve the politics around this.

The Bill does not change the cows, as the hon. Member for North Down seemed to imply. It does not change the grass that the cows are fed on. It does not change how the cows are milked, what lorries the produce goes into or what factories the milk is processed in. No, this is about Eurocrats stopping trade, not because the standard of the food has changed but because the paperwork might change. That is not a good basis on which to run any business, to run cross-border activity or to run cross-national frontier businesses. It is not. That is why the protocol should be changed and why the European Union should be ashamed of itself when it refuses to change some of the aspects of the protocol and to try to fix these matters.

The hon. Member for North Down has mentioned on many occasions the issue relating to veterinary products, pharmaceutical products and so on. A solution was agreed for human products, but the EU has blocked that solution for animals and animal welfare. It did so in such a manner that in a matter of months 50% of all veterinary products will be prevented from going to Northern Ireland. That will have a detrimental impact on farming, and the commercial aspect of that, on pets and on our income and our economy.

If ever there was a threat to cattle, it comes from the EU blocking veterinary products coming into Northern Ireland. That is the damage to our business. Do not take my word for it. Take the words of the National Office of Animal Health. It has been campaigning for this change and it has written to all the Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive and told us that this has to be changed. But there is no appetite in the EU to change it. NOAH says clearly that this is not about getting more time to negotiate. Time is over; time has run out. Indeed, the Government’s position is that they have been talking for a year and a half to try to fix this. Time is now over. Time is called on this matter. We have to have it resolved urgently and immediately.

Some references have also been made to manufacturing. I am proud to have one of Northern Ireland’s largest and most obvious manufacturing businesses—a world business in fact—in Ballymena, a part of my North Antrim constituency. Wrightbus has traded both before we were in the EU—before 1973— for 40 years after joining the EU, and since leaving the EU. It has been a successful world business. Why? Because of EU regulations? No. Because of British regulations? No. Because it makes the best product, and the best product sells. When it made poor products they did not sell. So because it makes the best product, it has at its feet a world market. It has been able to trade in the United States, all over Malaysia, in the middle east and in other parts of the world as well as the EU.

The idea that suddenly the protocol is making life easier or better for Wrightbus is wrong. The evidence from Wrightbus has been that, yes, it is getting good trade deals both inside the EU—in Germany and the Republic of Ireland—and outside the EU—in Australia, New Zealand and the United States. That is because of its product, but its product has been made costly to produce due to the impact of the protocol. It has made it more costly to get aluminium and other components into Northern Ireland from Great Britain. That adds to the manufacturing time, and time equals money. There is an impact on its product. While it is a market leader at present, as soon as it is challenged in that market lead, we will soon find out the pressure that that industry will be under.

It is very clear to me that in the Republic of Ireland there is a commercial interest in having some damage done to Northern Ireland’s trade. People do not like that being said, but it is a fact. The Republic of Ireland has breached regulations time and again. It is being investigated for a £200 million loan to Aer Lingus, which was brought to our attention in April. Since Brexit, I understand that the UK Government have set up an EU subsidy monitoring unit, which has asked for that £200 million loan to be investigated. It is causing commercial differences on the island of Ireland, to the point that the arm of Aer Lingus that operates out of Northern Ireland airports is being damaged by the grants and loans being given to its commercial arm in the Republic of Ireland.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Ian Paisley and Carla Lockhart

Committee stage
Monday 4th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Carla Lockhart]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention and agree entirely with what he is saying. It is abhorrent that this House funds an office that is a cold house to all members of the constituency that that individual represents. Every day, it retraumatises the victims of the terrorists after whom that office is named. I raised this point in this House in an Adjournment debate and have consistently raised it with Mr Speaker and a number of Ministers, asking them to take action. I will continue to do so until we have that dealt with appropriately. If we are to educate our future generations about the futility and evils of terrorism, we need to ensure it is never sanitised and never celebrated. That is why we ask Members to accept our amendment.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Amendment 107 is, of course, about addressing whether serious offences should be excluded, for example murders that occurred after 1998. Would it not be appalling if the people who murdered two soldiers at Massereene barracks in the South Antrim constituency and seriously wounded two civilians in the same gun attack walked away free if the case ever came again before a court? Surely that is not what this Bill should be doing.

[Carla Lockhart]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. It is well made and has been noted.

New clause 4 seeks to ensure that terrorists receiving immunity cannot proceed to laud their evil activities; it is about ensuring that the book deals do not follow, and the fundraising tours and storytelling events cannot happen. Vitally, it is about protecting victims, for whom such events cause huge hurt and distress. The terrorists gave no thought to the victims and survivors before they made them such, and the activities of terrorists and their political proxies to this day show that they still have no regard for victims and the trauma they continue to inflict upon them. This Bill would be plunged to even deeper depths of moral despondency if it were to facilitate the further glorification of terrorism by those granted immunity in this process. I hope the Government will consider whether this is an outcome they would allow in England and, when they answer that question, act accordingly to amend this Bill to eradicate this extolling of evil in Northern Ireland.

Let me touch briefly on new clause 5, which stands in my name and those of my colleagues. The Bill is lacking in many areas, but it certainly lacks in the whole sphere of the revocation of immunity. It is vital that this Bill does provide for situations where new evidence emerges showing that condition B in clause 18 was not met because the terrorist has lied. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that such instances will occur, given the types of people we are dealing with. Let us not forget that for many years senior members of the IRA have denied ever being members of the IRA; the truth is very much secondary to the cause. The granting of immunity is in itself abhorrent, but just how abhorrent would it be if someone had been granted immunity on the back of a tall tale and then the appropriate mechanism was not in place to revoke that ill-gotten immunity on the back of new evidence? This must be addressed, and we ask that the Government consider it carefully.

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East covered our other amendments in his contribution, passionately setting out why we believe they can at least make the Bill more robust. I reiterate his remarks, especially on the need to cut off at the pass any idea that immunity will give terrorists a platform to revel in their deeds and inflict more pain on victims who are already hurting so much because of this Bill.

Abortion Services Commissioning: Northern Ireland

Debate between Ian Paisley and Carla Lockhart

Tuesday 14th December 2021 Westminster Hall

[Ian Paisley]

That was a telling point and absolutely right and proper. Yes, this does dishonour and betray the devolution settlement. There are no two ways about; that is the only want it cuts. When powers are devolved to one region and then it is decided that it is not doing things the way we like, so the powers should be taken back, that is not lost on anyone.

We are not allowed to make up facts in this debate. The myth has been projected today that the majority of people in Northern Ireland agree to and with the most liberal abortion laws in any other part of the United Kingdom. Given that that has never been tested, that statement is erroneous and not factual. Any time the Assembly has voted on such matters over the years, it has taken the other view. Whenever this House has voted on it, the representatives from Northern Ireland who attend this place were divided, but the majority voted against the new regulations as outlined.

We cannot make up the facts and pretend that, because one or two Members support this, all Northern Ireland supports it. That is a myth and one that has to be challenged. Talk to any section of society in Northern Ireland, in the tribal way that Northern Ireland is often caricatured—talk to members of the Roman Catholic faith, members of the Protestant faith, members of no faith—and one will find that the weight of opinion is solidly for the rights of the unborn child. That is the socially conservative society that Northern Ireland actually is.

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. Some 80% of respondents to the consultation on the imposition of the legislation did not want it imposed on Northern Ireland, which completely dispels the myth that the majority of people in Northern Ireland are pro-abortion. In fact, they are pro-life.

[Ian Paisley]

I do not need to make the point, because my hon. Friend has just made it so exceptionally well.

When the regulations were first set in train in July 2019, it was argued in this Parliament that Parliament was duty-bound to pass the amendment that became section 9 because Northern Ireland, it was stated, was in violation of its international human rights obligations under the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women and the recommendations of the 2018 CEDAW Committee report on Northern Ireland.

However, when ones drills down into that report, the explanatory memorandum to the Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021 acknowledges the fact, which the Government now confirm, that paragraphs 85 and 86 of the CEDAW Committee report, which the House rested upon when it made its case in 2019, do not constitute legally binding international obligations. Constantly, those arguing for these liberal laws hang their hat on the false premise that it was an international obligation, when it was no such thing. That myth needs to be dispelled. We should not base our laws upon a lie, and that is what has happened. That is why people are so agitated about what the Government did.

The hon. Member for Pontypridd is right: everyone is entitled to their own opinions on these serious, weighty and emotional matters; however, they and the Government are not entitled to make a pretence that the law was an international obligation that had to be followed when it was no such thing. The Government have now changed their former line of reasoning, arguing that it is the 2019 Act rather than the CEDAW recommendations that requires them to force Stormont to implement the Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2020 and the 2021 regulations. If ever something has been made perverse, it is the way in which the law is now being argued for.

It is plainly an untenable situation, where non-binding recommendations have been misrepresented to create a binding Act that removes any obligation to and any protection that the unborn child heretofore had. In doing so, the Government leave Northern Ireland in a straitjacket on one of the most sensitive issues that it could ever consider. The UK Government should not have imposed the same law on Northern Ireland that the UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities has criticised in respect of the United Kingdom. That committee expressed its concern

“about perceptions in society that stigmatize persons with disabilities…and about the termination of pregnancy at any stage on the basis of fetal impairment.”

By allowing for abortion up to birth—think of it—in cases of non-foetal disabilities such as Down’s syndrome, cleft lip and club foot, the regulations are deeply offensive to the values of Northern Irish people and their politicians.

The House is currently considering a private Member’s Bill that the Government have given fair wind to, introduced by the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), on the rights of children with disabilities. I am honoured to be the secondary sponsor of that Bill. On the one hand, Parliament is trying to introduce laws to protect children with Down’s syndrome, to honour them and to give them their place in society. At the same time, this House says, “Destroy that Down’s syndrome child.” That is what is perverse and wrong, and it is why people are so agitated.

We shall see evidence of that in the latest progress of the Severe Fetal Impairment Abortion (Amendment) Bill, which is being debated as we speak in Stormont. There is a myth that a majority of Northern Ireland politicians are for these liberal laws, when, in fact, the only vote that has taken place in the legislative Assembly since these laws were introduced was on a law to amend them and to remove some of the most horrible liberal policies that affect the unborn. That point, and that sense of irony, is not lost on us.

I welcome the fact of this debate. I also welcome the fact that the Opposition are not here in force today. I think that is surprising, because the Opposition have made a habit of trying to push these matters on to Northern Ireland. I think that, perhaps, under their leader the penny is starting to drop that they cannot keep interfering in the devolution process. They cannot keep saying on the one issue—the Protocol—that they cannot get involved in a debate because they are defending the Belfast agreement, and then the next day come into this place and say, “We want to interfere in the Belfast agreement, set its issues aside, and interfere in a piece of legislation in Northern Ireland.” They cannot have it both ways—that is the message that we send out. This House cannot have it both ways, because that would be obscene and it would be wrong.

Today, I proudly proclaim my defence of, and give my voice to, the unborn. The unborn have a right to life. It is not a health issue to remove the life of an unborn child. It is a moral issue, and this House should have the moral compass to do what is right.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Ian Paisley and Carla Lockhart

Tuesday 15th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that for business in Northern Ireland, free and unfettered access to Great Britain is absolutely vital for jobs, growth and prosperity, and that any obstacle would be critical for jobs and businesses in both his constituency and mine?

[Ian Paisley]

My hon. Friend makes a vital point, one that I think is shared by Members across the House who recognise how vital GB is to the Northern Ireland economy, and to helping it grow and flourish.

Let me put more flesh on the bone on how vital the internal market is. We have had an increase in freight and vehicle traffic to and from Great Britain for nine consecutive years. Some 532,000 units move out of Belfast harbour to GB. That is absolutely critical to understanding how our economy works. I understand, Sir Graham, that you will want me to move on to our amendments and their effect, but when 65% of what Northern Ireland purchases is from GB, we get an idea of how big and important the GB economy is. That is the point my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) makes. We make £13.3 billion worth of purchases from GB every year. Consider the size of the Northern Ireland economy, with 1.7 million people. We make almost £14 billion of purchases from GB—not from Europe, not from the south of Ireland, not from the United States of America, not from any other European non-EU country, but from GB. Getting this Bill on the internal market right is therefore vital to us. The amendments will ensure that our country either flourishes or fails.

I believe that Members of this House want to see a flourishing Union. We have different interpretations of what that Union is about, and I have to respect those different interpretations, but I believe that the Members from Northern Ireland plead earnestly to ensure we have a flourishing Union. The amendments that my party is bringing forward are about making sure that our Union flourishes and that the finances within it flourish. In terms of foreign and direct investment, after London, Northern Ireland is the single largest part of the United Kingdom that benefits from foreign and direct investment. Therefore, getting trade deals in place is equally important to us, but the Bill is the foundation stone.

Each of these amendments has an impact on the economy of Northern Ireland, and many would have a good impact, but some less so. We want to ensure that the power to disapply or modify export declarations and other exit procedures is implemented fully. We cannot have something that puts Northern Ireland at a disadvantage in terms of its trade and how it operates. In terms of clause 44, on the notification of state aid for the purposes of the Northern Ireland protocol, we want to ensure that Northern Ireland is treated the same as the rest of the United Kingdom. We cannot have a situation where Northern Ireland’s opportunity to flourish from state aid rules from GB would be changed.

Let me give a specific example. The House has been debating for some time the issue of free ports, and there is an attempt to identify the best places for free ports across the whole United Kingdom. I would love some of those free ports to be in Northern Ireland, whether it is up in Londonderry at Foyle, in Belfast harbour, in Larne or in Warrenpoint. I would like to see those areas identified as potential free ports.

Under the protocol, our southern neighbour, who has different economic objectives—set aside its politics—from Northern Ireland, could object in the EU to Northern Ireland having a freeport and stop Northern Ireland having a freeport. Given that the UK Government appear to be looking at free ports as a way to drive the economy forward post Brexit, Northern Ireland could be completely disadvantaged because of the predatory financial interests of a country that wants to look after itself—namely, the south of Ireland, at the behest of the EU. That would be utterly disastrous. Whenever Ministers are considering these issues, I hope they will recognise that we welcome this Bill because it will prevent the attempt to tie Northern Ireland into a protocol and a withdrawal agreement that could damage financial and economic opportunities that would benefit all of us.

Some people put about the idea that this could damage the Belfast agreement. No matter what side we are on in terms of the Belfast agreement of 1998, at the end of the day, we should all be on the side of wanting to ensure that Northern Ireland’s economy flourishes, because it is through jobs and employment that people gain satisfaction and contentment. If we have contented people, we will not have people being dissatisfied, with community tension rising and problems flowing from that. Getting these economic aspects correct will ensure the peace that people cherish and therefore the principles of the Belfast or Good Friday agreement, which Members have enunciated their love for.

I have absolutely no doubt about the sincerity of those who have tabled amendments on how they want to see their part of the United Kingdom operate, but I hope that the Prime Minister is sincere in what he is bringing forward. I hope that Northern Ireland is not going to be used as a pawn in this, and I say that in all sincerity. The Government cannot afford to do that to the emotions of the people of my country. They cannot kick them up and down, turn the volume up and down and not expect a reaction. It is far too fraught with people’s concerns about their economic wellbeing to do that.

If the Government implement this Bill, I appeal to them to implement it with the sincerity with which we are reading through these clauses and agreeing with them. Do not use us as a pawn to extract some other general concession from the EU and then desert Northern Ireland. Once bitten, twice shy. If you fool me once, shame on you, but if you fool me twice, shame on me. There will be no shame on the Ulster Bench in this matter. We are warning the Government: treat us with sincerity, as we are entitled to be treated.

This problem protocol lies behind many of the amendments that have been tabled today. Some Members have objected to the protocol because it is perceived as discrimination against Wales and Scotland, disadvantaging those regions of the United Kingdom compared with Northern Ireland. I would say to my colleagues in the House from those parts of the United Kingdom, that the protocol actually damaged Northern Ireland, and fixing it now is the best way to move forward. We should stop and think about the idea that people can one day support the protocol as if it is the best thing ever, when for the last while we have heard objections to the protocol. The protocol is the problem and it needs to be adjusted and changed, and we need to address that.

The amendments do contain a running theme in that they seek to obtain consent for the devolved institutions, and Members have spoken at length about a perceived power grab. Those are issues that the Government must try to address cogently and they must try to reassure Members on that. It is very difficult for Northern Ireland Members to accept the arguments about making sure that the devolved institutions are entirely in step with all this, because the devolved institutions will never be in step with any of this for this reason: the devolved institution in Northern Ireland cannot make an opinion on this Bill because it cannot agree, it cannot find consensus. It is essentially gridlocked on this matter.

An amendment was drafted—it has not been selected —by the hon. Members for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) and for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) that would have required going back to an Executive that cannot agree or make an agreed statement on Brexit, the internal markets or any of those matters. I do not think we should push things to the gridlock in Northern Ireland. That is why we need legislation to come direct from Westminster and help us to make sure that we govern with the consensus of the whole House.

I was disappointed that the Member for Belfast South decided not to speak in this debate earlier and removed herself from the list. We understand the reason—the amendment was not selected—but I would have been interested to hear the points that the SDLP Members would make on why they would want to hand a veto to a deadlocked Executive or Assembly. The Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly need to focus collectively—I think they do focus individually—on businesses, and I hope that they will do that and ensure clarity on how businesses could operate under the Bill.

The one thing I hear every day from constituents—and I am sure it is the same for members of the SDLP, the Alliance party and my own party colleagues—is that they want clarity on how business should be done in Northern Ireland. Businesses from all across Northern Ireland have expressed concerns about the problem protocol and its lack of clarity. Indeed, some of those points have been well made in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, where we have sought answers from the Government on the clarity that is ultimately required. The report that we made to the Government showed where we need clarity. Will there be import declarations? Will there be entry summary declarations? Will there be safety and security certificates? Will there be export health certificates for everything? Will there be phytosanitary certificates and certificates of origin? If there are, who will pay for them? How will they be monitored—through a computer process, a desktop process? Will that be for every single good, or will it be for 2% of the goods that are currently moved? Please give us clarity on all of those matters, or do what the Bill suggests and remove the paperwork, remove the burdensome red tape, take it away altogether and let us trade.

I ask any Member representing an English constituency if they would tolerate having to fill in an export declaration form for goods that were moving from Yorkshire to London. They would not, so why should people and businesses in Northern Ireland have to tolerate filling in, or being threatened with having to fill in, declaration forms for that sort of movement of goods? It is not acceptable and will not be tolerated, and rightly so. The Government should address that.

I would also appeal to those people who have tried to be encouraged by what the US Congress have said about the Bill: that if the protocol is removed, they—the US Congress and the Speaker of the House—would do their best to block trade with the United Kingdom. Considering that the highest levels of foreign direct investment from the United States of America have come to Northern Ireland and benefit constituencies such as Foyle, the Belfast constituencies, my constituency and the Upper Bann constituency, who in their right mind would stand in this House and praise American politicians for trying to stop that trade?

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Ian Paisley and Carla Lockhart

Report stage & 3rd reading & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 6th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister, and Members from both sides of the House, for bringing to fruition a Bill that will protect and support victims of domestic abuse. As many in this House have outlined, domestic abuse is on the rise in the UK. Northern Ireland figures released today show an increase of 1,000 cases in the past three months. The figures show a 15% increase on the same period last year, and domestic abuse is no respecter of gender or age.

Last week, as I travelled by car around my constituency, I listened to an interview about a young lady called Joleen Corr, a 27 year-old girl from Downpatrick. She was a mum of one and she was propelled down a set of stairs and died as a result of a brain injury. Her mum was devastated, and continues to be devastated. I trust that the legislation will assist in bringing some comfort to people like the Corr family. As a wife and mum, I am thankful for the safe haven of my own home, but I know that many throughout the UK do not have the safety that I enjoy. I want the Bill to be just the start of great things to assist victims. I also pay tribute to Mr Steven Smyth from Northern Ireland, who is today running 100 miles to raise awareness for Men’s Alliance Northern Ireland, a support group for male victims of domestic abuse. I commend him for his efforts.

A person who works with women experiencing domestic abuse in England said of new clause 28 over the weekend, “We work every day with women who experience domestic abuse. We see the way they are controlled and manipulated. To me, this suggests the legislation will only be making that worse. It will give abusers more power and more reason to keep the woman being abused at home, away from people who can really help them.” This House should not hinder those professionals in their work.

The new clause seems to be a clear attempt to use the Domestic Abuse Bill as a vehicle to advance an agenda that is emphatic on expanding access to abortion, seemingly failing to acknowledge that allowing women to have an abortion at locations other than hospitals or places approved by the Secretary of State has already led to serious complications. We all know that abortion is not the answer to domestic abuse. Surely we should be addressing how women find themselves in such difficult situations, and take measures to prevent that?

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that pushing that agenda has led to the ludicrous situation in Northern Ireland where one Minister brought forward a proposal to allow for abortion pills to be administered by a foreign jurisdiction over the phone to patients in Northern Ireland? Is she as appalled by that proposal as I am?

[Carla Lockhart]

I agree with my hon. Friend that we have an absolutely terrible situation in Northern Ireland as a result of the legislation that was railroaded through this House, and forced on the people of Northern Ireland.

The amendment makes no provision for helping women to get out of the abusive situation. Providing women with abortion pills while failing to address the reasons why women may be unable safely to attend a clinic does not present itself as a responsible or logical solution to tackling domestic abuse. Our laws should be designed to help vulnerable women escape domestic abuse situations, not enable them to remain in those horrific situations. Indeed, if a woman is not assessed in person—and, specifically, given an ultrasound—and if she has gone beyond the legal limit for an abortion by pill, the risk of complications goes up dramatically. Coercion of some kind is frequent in an unplanned pregnancy and in removing the requirement of a face-to-face consultation, there is no guarantee that a patient can speak freely without the coercive party listening in. Furthermore, we know that women are coerced into having abortions based on sex selection. If an abusive partner does not want a particular sex of child, they can force their partner into having an abortion via telemedicine.

On new clause 1, I welcome changes being made to remove the defence of consent in cases of rough sex, but I believe we need to do more to tackle the drivers for rough sex practices. I strongly support new clause 1 in the name of the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), whom I commend for her efforts and work in this regard. The House needs to be clear about depictions of rough sex in pornography. Such practices cannot be normalised, and such content should be made illegal. In terms of pornography, it is already illegal, but it is notable that the campaign group We Can’t Consent To This, which has been advocating for a change in the law on the rough sex defence, states:

“In four of the most recent killings”—

of women and girls—

“the men viewed ‘extreme porn’ featuring violence including strangulation…before or after the killing of the women.”

Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Debate between Ian Paisley and Carla Lockhart

Monday 8th June 2020 General Committees

[Ian Paisley]

It is a pleasure to serve under your experienced chairmanship, Sir David.

This is an issue that is vastly controversial and provokes much thought; in some quarters it provokes concern, anger and frustration, and in other quarters it provokes much happiness. Those are the differences we are in. This divides parties, it divides families and it divides homes. I think everyone recognises the controversial and difficult nature of this.

However, hon. Members should be under no illusion whatsoever: today’s proceedings, when they are voted for—there is no doubt that they will be passed, given the Government’s majority—will not stop the confusion. The promise that this will end the confusion over regulations and all the rest of it in Northern Ireland is complete and total nonsense, as the Chairman made clear when he was addressing the issues to do with points of order. He said he was in the dark about how we got here.

If a Chairman as esteemed as you, Sir David, is in the dark about how the Government got themselves into a position where they are pushing through important regulations about criminality, social and constitutional change and the right to life of the pre-born in a two-and-a-half hour, crammed-in session, in an Upper Committee Corridor in this House, when we were only allowed 17 minutes on the Floor of the main Chamber last year in a previous Parliament—not this Parliament—to deal with the amendments that came from the House of Lords, if that is the fact of how we are going to deal with legislation that affects Northern Ireland in such a massive way, there is zero respect being paid not only to hon. Members from Northern Ireland, whatever their different opinions, but to women in Northern Ireland. This is not the way we should be legislating for anyone or any matter in that regard.

That is why I reiterate the points I made earlier and agree wholeheartedly with the speech of the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings, who said that the way this has been carried out is an affront to the people of Northern Ireland. The hon. Members who are privileged to vote on this matter today, while the vast majority of Members from Northern Ireland are completely denied a vote on the issue, will have to ask themselves whether they are content that, by the end of these proceedings, they will have helped to pass the most permissive abortion regulations in the whole of the United Kingdom.

The abortion regulations that are being passed for Northern Ireland, as we have already heard in the to and fro, do not mirror what occurs in this part of the United Kingdom, but are completely different. Hon. Members have spoken in the past in this House about having to ensure that English laws represent English votes, and we have English votes for English laws procedures in place to do that. Northern Ireland Members have a right to ask, “Will this House make laws that reflect the character of Northern Ireland?”

The strength of this Union is that it is made up of very different component parts: peoples who have different views, peoples who are divided in many ways. The House should at least respect those differences. If it is good enough to have English votes for English laws, this House should recognise that the changes to be brought about should at least reflect the views of the people in Northern Ireland. As I have already indicated, the regulations are not a mirror image of the law in Great Britain. I hope that I am not being unfair to the Minister, who is an absolute gentleman and always deals with us courteously, but it is wrong to help Members through the Lobbies to vote for this legislation by suggesting to them that, “It mirrors what happens in the rest of the UK, so it is okay—we can push it on through and those Paddys will just have to accept it because it is the same as in the rest of the United Kingdom.”

The regulations do not mirror what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom in four key and distinct ways. The rules and regulations that would be introduced are much more permissive in terms of the gestation time limits that are allowed for abortion. They are more permissive on the issue of sex selection, which is outlawed in the United Kingdom and cannot now be protected in my part of the United Kingdom because no reason has to be given for a termination. They are more permissive in allowing abortion and termination on the basis of disability; and they are more permissive on the social reasons that have to be given, but not the medical reasons on the question of mental wellbeing.

The regulations do not mirror the law in the rest of the United Kingdom. People have talked about having two doctors’ opinions; zero doctors’ opinions are required in Northern Ireland by the regulations. Medical opinion can come from a midwife, a nurse, or anyone with a medical qualification, but the regulations do not specify that a doctor’s opinion is required in Northern Ireland. The 1967 abortion law was brought in on the basis that a doctor’s opinion was key to allowing the decision, and that has been completely done away with. On that key point, the suggestion that the regulations mirror GB is completely and totally erroneous.

Under the regulations, in Northern Ireland no reason has to be given for the termination to take place up to 12 weeks’ into gestation—no reason whatever. That is not the case in the rest of the United Kingdom, where reasons have to be given. In Northern Ireland, that opens the door to sex selection; it opens the door to other social reasons and to other issues that do not form any part of the regulations and practice in the rest of the United Kingdom. That goes well beyond even what CEDAW requires. CEDAW made it clear that there was a deficiency in the Northern Ireland regulations as they stood, because of rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormality issues. That no reason has to be given means that the laws in Northern Ireland would be at variance with and completely different from what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom. That does not mirror the United Kingdom.

On the highest sanction for illegal termination, the practitioner may decide that they are or are not satisfied with the reasons that are given, but are wrong in coming to that decision. If that person is eventually brought to court, the highest sanction that that person will face is a level 5 fine, meaning that, for something that is criminal law in the rest of the United Kingdom, a person can buy their way out of that problem with less than £5,000. That is the fact. The regulations do not mirror those here, where, if someone breaks that law, they face anywhere between five years to life in prison. That really makes a significant change in terms of how the regulations would be interpreted and applied in Northern Ireland. Even the Republic of Ireland, which has changed its abortion regulations, recognised that the punishment had to be by way of imprisonment of up to 14 years. Allowing people to buy their way out of that problem does not mirror what happens in the rest of the UK.



As I have already said, sex-selection terminations will be permitted, as it is not an offence to terminate for any reason. The regulations fail to mention sex selection. The Government have had ample opportunity to include sex selection and make it clear that it is not allowed, but they have been silent. As the Government have failed to mention it, how will the laws that outlaw sex selection in GB extend protections to unborn life in Northern Ireland? Maybe someone does not want a girl or a boy and then decided, “That’s a good enough reason.” It is a travesty, and it is wrong. It does not mirror what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Carla Lockhart]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point about sex selection. Does he agree that it is normally girls who are aborted? We talk so much about women’s health and women’s rights, yet it is girls who are aborted in the womb.

[Ian Paisley]

My hon. Friend makes the point exceedingly well, and we should listen to her words. This legislation does not protect the rights of women and girls, or of the unborn. It dismisses their rights—that is the fact.

The Attorney General for Northern Ireland has claimed that the Secretary of State has exceeded his authority. That is why the regulations, if and when they are passed, will unfortunately run into further controversy—no doubt they will be challenged. They will not bring an end to a difficult argument or suddenly solve it. We are in the process of dealing with difficult issues all the time, and the suggestion that the regulations end a difficult problem is just complete and total nonsense. If it was so easy, most hon. Members would welcome that. However, in claiming that the Secretary of State has exceeded his authority, the Attorney General for Northern Ireland made the following comments:

“It is doubtful that the legislation gives adequate ECHR protections to the rights of those opposed to these regulations, whether on conscience or philosophical grounds.”

He went on to say:

“It is inappropriate for the provision. In light of the political context that now exists in Northern Ireland, these provisions are actually lawful.”

Let me just complete the quotation. He goes on to say:

“It is disproportionate, contrary to article 9 of ECHR as well as article 8, to require those who undertake ancillary, administrative or managerial tasks to act contrary to their conscience.”