Scotland’s Place in the UK
Ian Murray Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow such a thoughtful and emotional contribution from the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart).
I want to talk about the reasons why Scotland is stronger when we pool and share our resources as a United Kingdom, but let me start by outlining what I believe to be the three main elements of the debate on the streets of Scotland. First, it is about the things that we know will change. Secondly, it is about the things that would not change. Thirdly, it is about the issues that would require negotiation. It has become apparent that there is a nationalist plan to move as many items as possible from the negotiation box into the box for things that would not change: the pound, membership of the European Union and membership of NATO, to name just three. It is pretty clear that the motivation for that move is to create an atmosphere in which people in Scotland feel that separation is not a risk. I hope that the yes campaign will change its strategy and tactics because a victory based on a deceit would be no victory at all.
We also know that many people have stepped in to make their views known, most notably and recently the Governor of the Bank of England. I hope that people will continue to do so without fear and will make positive contributions to the argument on both sides, but I must place on record my concern that the apparatus of the state is being abused by those in power. The White Paper, which I have in my hand—Members will be delighted to know that it is not my speech—was billed as the document that would answer all the questions on independence, but it does not. Sir Peter Housden, the permanent secretary to the Scottish Government, must explain why taxpayers’ money was used to create and issue that document. The Secretary of State, the Cabinet Office and the head of the civil service should explain why they have maintained their silence while the impartiality of the civil service has been compromised.
Let me give just two examples. On page 37, the White Paper states:
“The Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government in Edinburgh are responsible for a range of ‘devolved’ matters”
before going on to list them. It then states:
“The Westminster Government—currently a coalition of the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties—and the Westminster Parliament have ‘reserved’ responsibilities”
before going on to name those rights. What can we take from those two statements? There is no mention of the United Kingdom Parliament and it refers to a Westminster Parliament and Westminster Government that do not exist. It is factually incorrect, so why did civil servants allow the document to be released and published at the taxpayers’ expense?
It does not end there. Each page is filled with similar partisan comments that belie the Scottish Government’s position that the document was designed to illuminate. One example really makes my blood boil, and it was mentioned a few moments ago by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). Page 13 is entitled “Gains from independence” and states:
“Abolition of the ‘bedroom tax’ which will save 82,500 households in Scotland—including 63,500 households with a disabled adult and 15,500 households with children—an average of £50 per month”.
What could be more despicable and reprehensible than preying on the fears and concerns of the most vulnerable people in Scotland? That statement and the words of SNP Ministers on the issue were designed to create the impression that the Scottish Parliament could not remove the tax without independence. This week, by their own actions, they have confirmed that as a deceit.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech, not just dissecting the White Paper as what it is, a work of fiction, but saying that the Scottish Government’s current powers can be used in such a way. Does he think that the people of Scotland will be asking serious questions of the SNP Government about why they have waited more than 12 months to abolish the bedroom tax in Scotland?
Mr McCann
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. There are many more examples and each page of the document is filled with similar deceits. It is not fair on the people of Scotland, who should be relying on informative documents from the Scottish Government to inform the decision they will have to take on 18 September.
Scotland is part of the most successful political and economic union that the world has ever seen, as has been mentioned by other hon. Members.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Murray Excerpts(11 years ago)
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David Mundell
Corby is a great example of the British family of nations and we should celebrate it. I urge the hon. Gentleman’s constituents to tell their friends and families in Scotland to vote no in the referendum.
Ian Murray
When the Minister visits Corby, will he get the train to Peterborough on the east coast main line? What discussions is the Secretary of State having with his Cabinet colleagues to keep that line in public ownership?
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman is aware that the east coast main line is going to return to the franchise arrangements.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Murray Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
4. What representations he has made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 2013 Budget.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
5. What representations he has made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 2013 Budget.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)
I am in close contact with the Scottish business community and Treasury colleagues in the run-up to Budget 2013, and I have discussed with them a range of measures to support economic growth and fairness.
Ian Murray
The Secretary of State is well respected across this House, but surely he, as a Liberal Democrat, can see the unfairness in giving millionaires a massive tax cut in April while introducing the bedroom tax. Could he make urgent representations to the Chancellor to reverse both of those policies before the draconian bedroom tax does untold damage not only to the vulnerable and disabled, but to our councils and housing associations?
Michael Moore
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind opening comments. I point out to him that, as a result of measures that we have already taken and which, as a Liberal Democrat, I am very happy to champion, 183,000 Scots will be taken out of tax altogether from this April; 2 million people in low and middle-income families will pay less tax; and people on the minimum wage are paying half the tax that they were under the previous Government. Our 45p tax rate in April will be higher than that which prevailed under Labour for 12 years and 11 months. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman is proud of that record.
Constitutional Law
Ian Murray Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Margaret Curran
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which affords me the opportunity to draw attention to the fact that those who opposed devolution—perhaps most strongly at some points—were those in the Scottish National party, which never participated on any multi-party basis to give Scotland the constitutional agreement that we now have. In fact, many of us who were prepared to work with others—and who demonstrated that we could do so—did, in fact, work in the best interests of Scotland.
The right hon. Gentleman also allows me to make the point—which I was just about to make—that we should heed the advice of Scotland’s first First Minister, Donald Dewar, who said in 1998:
“The…decade must not be one long embittering fight over further constitutional change. For me, the question now is what we do with our Parliament, not what we do to it.”
In these challenging economic times, perhaps we should focus our minds on the powers of the Scottish Parliament and question how they are being exercised at the moment. That, too, should occupy our energies.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
My hon. Friend has just mentioned the late, great Donald Dewar, who said that the decade from 1998 should not be a decade of stifling the Scottish Parliament, but since the SNP got a majority in that Parliament, has not its whole ethos indeed been stifled?
Margaret Curran
I thank my hon. Friend for that point. As a number of hon. Members present know, I served in the Scottish Parliament for 12 years. I was part of many of the exciting developments and changes it inaugurated, but it is with deep disappointment that I now see a Parliament that does not seem to have the proper opportunity to scrutinise the Executive who are part of that arrangement and who also seem to be significantly failing the Scottish people. Although I see constitutional change as a means to an end, I have never seen it as an end in itself. It would serve the Scottish people well if the Scottish Government focused on the work of serving the Scottish people and their interests, rather than just for ever furthering the goal of constitutional change.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
It is a great privilege to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire). She has just given 10 minutes of a wonderful speech that welcomed the section 30 order and highlighted the dangers ahead of us. It is also a great pleasure to take part in the same debate as my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling). He gave a powerful and influential speech, which is why he is chair of the Better Together campaign. I can think of no one better to keep the United Kingdom together.
I want to reflect a little on the speech of the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), who is no longer in his seat. He gave the House an historical canter through Scotland and its relationship with England, and spoke of how parliamentary Chambers and institutions hold people together and become the focal point of where people do things. It is worth reflecting that everyone in this Chamber who has an accent similar to mine or calls themselves Scots can go abroad anywhere in the world, to the four corners of the globe, and chat to people from different countries who think that Scotland is already a separate country because it has its own separate identity, dialect and history. Indeed, constitutionally, being part of the UK means that we can benefit as a country from being part of that Union, while also sharing the wonderful opportunities that having a separate identity as a nation and being Scots brings. We should reflect on that; indeed, the hon. Gentleman allowed us to do so.
Our consideration of this section 30 order is quite an historic moment, because when we pass it this evening—and when it is passed in the other place—it will go north to the Scottish Parliament, which will then have all the powers it requires to run the referendum on separation. I am pleased that that is happening today for a number of reasons, but mainly because it is this party—the Scottish Labour party—that is the party of devolution. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland said, one of the first Acts of the new Labour Government in 1997 was to bring forward the referendum to allow the people of Scotland to decide whether they wanted the Scottish Parliament.
Sheila Gilmore
One of the things I particularly remember is that we had a general election in May of that year and the referendum at the beginning of September—a piece of speedy action that the current Scottish Government could do with emulating.
Ian Murray
I am delighted that my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour has made that point. We should reflect on the fact—the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), the leader of the SNP in this House, mentioned this in his contribution—that the SNP has been in existence for 75 years pushing this constitutional point, but does not quite know the answers to the big questions now that they are being asked. With consensus from most Members in the House, the Labour Government were able to proceed with the referendum speedily and give the Scottish people their opportunity to decide whether they wanted a Scottish Parliament.
The process did not stop there, because it was those of us on these Benches—the Scottish Labour party—who delivered the Calman commission and the Scotland Act 1998. Devolution was always supposed to be a process. The 1999 commencement of the Scottish Parliament was never supposed to be the full stop in this constitutional journey, which has continued. Crucially, however, it has continued only under the Scottish Labour party. The Scottish National party has now taken control of the Scottish Parliament. What we have seen since 2007—although more so since 2011—is a party that has taken the wonderful institution that is the Scottish Parliament and turned it into little more than a talking shop for the ruling party, with commanding majorities on its scrutiny Committees. We have only to think about some of the Committees in this House to see how powerful that scrutiny process can be in holding the Executive to account. I can think of numerous occasions on which that has happened, including a Backbench Business debate in the House last week—prompted by a report from the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills—that changed the Government’s policy on dealing with pub companies. That happened because of the power of the Committees in this House.
Gemma Doyle
Is my hon. Friend as concerned as I am that the Deputy First Minister has today written a blog piece, which is posted on a Scottish Government website—she has indicated that she will now do this regularly—in which she says that all Departments and parts of the Scottish Government are now working on a transition process? Is he as concerned as I am about the amount of public money—taxpayers’ money—that is now being spent on a political campaign when it could be used to tackle Scotland’s shocking levels of long-term unemployment?
Ian Murray
I am delighted by that intervention, because it shows the entire raison d’être of the current majority in the Scottish Parliament—a Parliament that was not designed for any one party to get a majority, as the right hon. Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) said. Now that the SNP has the trust of the Scottish people—who have given it a mandate through its majority in the Scottish Parliament—it is using all the power that has been bestowed on it to deliver constitutional change, rather than dealing not just with long-term unemployment, but with the absolutely shameful scenes of queues outside food banks such as in my constituency. I would rather that the entire effort of the civil service and the Scottish Parliament were focused on those issues, not just on dealing with the constitution. Many Members on the Labour Benches who talk to their constituents on the doorsteps realise that the issues out there are far wider than the constitution, which ranks very low down on the list of priorities of the people of Scotland.
The latest piece of devolution that we have in our hands today is the biggest question of all to be given to the Scottish people. Some have used the phrase, “a referendum made in Scotland”. This has to be a referendum not only made in Scotland, but by the Scottish people: not a referendum concocted by the First Minister and the SNP, not a referendum that is to deceive, and not a referendum that is unclear, ambiguous or a sham. That is why consensus in the Scottish Parliament is so important. In every major constitutional debate about Scotland in this House and in the other place under the previous Government, we sought consensus. Consensus is the way to take devolution work forward and to provide trust to the Scottish people.
The Select Committee on Scottish Affairs commented on that point in the report it produced last week, as the Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), mentioned earlier. I will not give a précis of that speech for the SNP Members who staged a walk-out when he was speaking. The Committee’s report concluded that while the Scottish Parliament will have full powers to run the referendum following the passing of the section 30 order, it should not just force through decisions using the SNP’s parliamentary majority, and consensus should be sought to make the referendum fair, concise and conclusive.
I worry about that aspect. Can we trust—here is another Scottish word for the Hansard reporters—the sleekit First Minister and the SNP to do what is in the best interests of Scotland, rather than what is in the best interests of the First Minister and the SNP? I think the jury is well and truly out on that point. The track record of the SNP and the First Minister on a variety of issues in the past few months has cast doubt on their ability to be fair, transparent and honest about the referendum and the consequences for the future of my country. We have had the First Minister’s confusion about whether he received advice on Scotland’s membership of the European Union. We have had a flip-flop on what Scotland’s currency would be. Would it be the euro, the pound, or the groat? We have even had suggestions from SNP Members that we might even use the Chinese renminbi in Scotland. We have had the First Minister taking credit when unemployment in Scotland has been falling, but blaming everyone else when it has been going up.
Mr McCann
Does my hon. Friend share my concerns about the head of the Scottish civil service? It has been accused in the past by many people of being native and refusing to speak truth to power. Is it not a concern that, when it comes to the referendum, it will not have the courage to speak up against the First Minister who controls all?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We are in danger. We are debating the section 30 order, rather than the referendum. A lot of Members want to speak, so I do not want to tempt Members on to another subject.
Ian Murray
I will take your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend has his remarks on the record. That issue will be a concern to many Members of this House and to the people of Scotland.
I was going through issues on which I have concerns about the section 30 order, and what the SNP Government might do with it. I was talking about the First Minister taking credit for falling unemployment, but blaming everyone else when it goes up. We have had the arc of prosperity with Ireland and Iceland, until they went bust; then it was Norway, and now it is back to Iceland again. We have been told that Scots should not have taken part in Team GB, but the First Minister has taken credit for the gold medals—indeed, some SNP Members in this House play in the UK parliamentary football team. The issues are there for people to see.
We have seen the SNP Government espouse a nuclear-free Clyde, while changing their 60-year opposition to NATO. They want a nuclear-free Scotland, but it is okay for a US submarine to sail into Faslane and launch a nuclear weapon from Scottish shores. That is a ludicrous position which is yet another fudge on the Scottish people. They are changing their own rules to suit themselves, and that is why they might change the rules of the section 30 order to suit the referendum. Mr Deputy Speaker, I sense that I may be ruled out of order shortly, so I will say merely that the list is endless, and move on.
To emphasise what the Scottish Affairs Committee has said, the Scottish Government cannot be both player and referee with regard to section 30. The Electoral Commission has a vital role as an independent overseer of the process that includes critical aspects of funding and, most importantly, the wording of the question. The commission sent an updated briefing to hon. Members, and the first thing it says about the section 30 order is that the commission will have responsibility at the referendum for assessing the intelligibility of the proposed question. That is a critical part of its involvement, and this is where my discomfort lies.
The Minister deserves credit, along with the Secretary of State, but he was questioned in the House more than a dozen times during the debate on the Edinburgh agreement about what mechanics would be used if the Scottish Government ignored the commission’s recommendations, and all he could say was that he was confident that the Scottish Government would do the right thing and that the Scottish people would judge their actions. The SNP’s track record on straight answers about Scotland’s future shows that it has form in this area, and it would be wrong not to put on record that that is a real concern. The commission has been involved in every election in recent history. Its involvement in the AV referendum resulted in the question being changed on several occasions until it and the Government were satisfied that it was fair. No Government have ever overruled the commission, and the First Minister should not be the first to do so. This decision is the most important that Scotland has faced for 300 years, and that makes the role of the commission integral to the entire referendum process.
The commission’s role is also integral to campaign funding. The order does not give any details about funding, so it will be dictated by the memorandum of agreement between both Governments signed as part of the Edinburgh agreement. The commission will make recommendations after a consultation, but the SNP has already indicated that it would overrule the commission on several points, including in respect of much lower limits for businesses and unions to campaign, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party, indicated. Those limits are much lower than those recommended for the AV and Welsh referendums in respect of the umbrella campaigning groups and, as he also said—this point stuck in my head—even lower than for local government elections. Those of us who have helped run those elections know how low those limits are for getting information out to electors and voters, who deserve to have the information in front of them so that they can make an informed decision. The people of Scotland deserve as much information as possible in order for them to decide whether Scotland is better together or separate from the rest of the UK.
Then, there is the question itself. The SNP has been challenged time and time again to say whether it would abide by the commission’s recommendations on the question, but it has refused to commit to answering. The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), the leader of the SNP in the House, was questioned four times during his contribution, and all he could say was that the Scottish Parliament would have regard to the recommendations. Any SNP Member could intervene now and say, “Yes, it’s a matter for the Scottish Parliament, but the SNP and the Yes Scotland campaign will abide by the recommendations, whatever they are, of the commission.” The fact that they have not done that sends out a very strong message that our concerns about the question, with regards to the section 30 order, are not just valid but very real.
It is critical that the commission’s recommendations be respected, otherwise the Scottish people will not get the fair and transparent referendum that they ought to have. The section 30 order passes the power to the Scottish Parliament, and I am proud that the party with a track record of devolution will be wholeheartedly supporting it. We will continue to scrutinise the process both in this place and in Holyrood to ensure that the decision is decisive, legal and fair.
Scotland and the Union
Ian Murray Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Anas Sarwar
It is untrue to say that health inequalities widened under the Labour Government, but it is factually correct to say that inequalities are increasing in Scotland under the watch of Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government. Health inequalities are increasing and educational opportunities are decreasing. People from working class backgrounds in Scotland are less likely to go to college or university than people from working class backgrounds in England and Wales. That is happening on the watch of the Scottish National party, not of the Tories or Labour, so will the hon. Lady please not lecture Labour Members on our record? She should focus more on her party’s record in government.
What Scotland do we want to create for future generations? We want it to be a successful country in which to bring up our children, but what role do we want Scotland to play in the world? I want Scotland not to isolate itself, but to engage with its partners in the UK to take on the big challenges of global poverty, to fight climate change, and to fight for justice and fairness in the world. What differentiates Labour Members and SNP Members? Labour Members did not come into politics because we wanted to fight poverty only in our constituencies or our country. We want to fight poverty and create opportunity not only in Glasgow and Edinburgh, but in Manchester, Birmingham and around the world. I do not believe we will do that by creating a border between Scotland and England. There is a vote on a UN resolution today on enhanced status for the Palestinian people, which will hopefully work towards a positive resolution by which we have an independent Palestinian state living side by side with Israel. I came into politics to fight for an independent Palestinian state and for self-determination for the people of Kashmir, not to break up my own country. I want to fight injustice in other parts of the world.
One big point is that we can make the positive case for Scotland economically, emotionally, socially and politically. The most successful aid agency in the world is headquartered in Scotland. It employs hundreds of people, has a budget of £7 billion, helps to save hundreds of thousands of lives every year, and lifts hundreds of thousands of people out of poverty every year, which demonstrates the collective strength of Scotland working in partnership. We are a key member of the UN Security Council not for power or prestige, but to fight tyranny and oppression around the world. I want Scotland to have its full voice in that process. We are a leading economy and country in the G8. A Scottish leader as Prime Minister worked with the G8 to stop a global recession becoming a global depression. Those are positive arguments for Scotland remaining part of the UK, not the negative arguments we get from the SNP.
On the quality of the debate, we will have heated debates and the usual Scottish politics spats between Labour and the SNP and others between now and the referendum—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire wants to make an intervention, I am more than happy to take it. We are divided politically, but we do not want our country to be divided in the process. Whatever happens in the referendum and whatever decision Scotland makes, we must ensure that we come together in the best interests of Scotland and ensure that we fight and create a fairer, more equal country.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
I apologise for not being in the Chamber at the start of the debate; I was in a Bill Committee.
My hon. Friend mentions the quality of the debate. Will that not be enhanced if the First Minister is straight with the Scottish people and if his arguments stay on the same track? The arc of prosperity used to mean Ireland and Iceland, but now it has moved on to the Scandinavian countries. Until we have a consistent and honest debate, we will not have a fair playing field.
Anas Sarwar
I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. When the Minister systematically destroyed the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire on Britishness, he reminded me that, throughout the SNP’s existence, it has claimed it wants independence because England has never treated Scotland fairly, and because Scotland has never had a fair deal within the UK, but SNP Members imagine that everyone will treat Scotland fairly and work together to create a better country when it separates from the UK. That just does not stack up.
SNP Members make assertions on NATO and EU membership. The hon. Gentleman said today that the biggest threat to Scotland remaining part of the EU was from the UK, but he cannot guarantee that Scotland will remain a member of the EU if it chooses independence. We need facts rather than assertion. SNP Members say that Scotland will keep the pound and automatically have a seat on the Monetary Policy Committee; that the BBC will break up and Scotland will have better quality programmes; and that our credit rating and Royal Mail services will remain the same. They are assertions—not one of them is based on fact. The people of Scotland deserve better. Throughout the SNP’s existence, the answer to any question has always been “independence”, but now that the question is independence, it does not have the answers for the people of Scotland.
Scotland deserves a transparent and open debate. It deserves to know what Scotland will look like if it chooses independence. It deserves better than a First Minister and a Scottish Government simply asserting that independence will be whatever people want it to be. That is not good enough. The SNP cannot say to one audience that Scotland will have the Monaco taxes, but then say to another audience that we will have Scandinavian public services. It cannot say that Scotland will have none of the horrible welfare changes and reforms, but that it will have similar corporation taxes to Ireland. That does not add up and is not credible, and disrespects the people of Scotland.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Murray Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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David Mundell
I absolutely agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Some honourable former members of the Scottish National party, such as MSPs Jean Urquhart and Mr Finnie, agree with him and they could not reconcile their positions. Many SNP MSPs continue to sit in government in Scotland, however, despite being unable to reconcile those two positions.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
7. What recent assessment he has made of the economy in Scotland.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)
The UK Government have reduced the deficit by a quarter and we are taking important steps to promote growth. Cutting corporation tax, accelerating infrastructure projects and establishing the funding for lending scheme are just some of the range of measures being implemented.
Ian Murray
Does the Secretary of State agree with the recent assessment of the Institute for Fiscal Studies that in the event of a separate Scotland the economy will not be sustainable in the long term?
Michael Moore
I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman. We will have much stronger opportunities if we continue as part of the United Kingdom than we will if we go our own separate ways.
Referendum (Scotland)
Ian Murray Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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David Mundell
As I indicated in my statement, the Government are already objectively carrying out extensive analysis that will clearly set out the benefits of the United Kingdom, and of Scotland playing a part in it. The people of Scotland will be able to contrast that with the lack of clarity and of any substantive proposals, and the uncertainty, coming from the SNP.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
I welcome the statement, but may I press the Minister yet again on what mechanism is in place for this House to have a view if the Scottish Government do not take the advice of the Electoral Commission—as they have already indicated will be the case?
David Mundell
The opportunity for Members in relation to the issue as a whole will be in the debate on the Order, and all hon. Members will have a vote on it. If the Electoral Commission’s proposals were to be rejected—and there has been no formal statement from the Scottish Government to that effect—the Scottish Government would have to be held to account for that by the people of Scotland, by politicians in this House and by the hon. Gentleman’s counterparts in the Scottish Parliament. I have faith in the people of Scotland. If they see the Scottish Government flagrantly rejecting proposals from the Electoral Commission, or any suggestion of trickery in the question, they will not look well on the perpetrators.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Murray Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Michael Moore
My hon. Friend, more than most, understands the complexities of public spending in this country. I say to him, however, that our priority has to be to reduce the deficit, after which we can look at these issues again. I would also gently point out to him that within England there are quite large variations, and that the figure per head for spending in London is higher than in Scotland.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
10. Given that the Scottish Government have had no discussions with either the Chancellor or the Bank of England about having a place on the Bank’s Monetary Policy Committee—which would be a committee of a foreign country—does the Secretary of State agree that this is another fanciful assertion that cons the Scottish people?
Michael Moore
The hon. Gentleman is entirely right to highlight the fact that the Scottish Government are yet again making such assertions rather than producing detailed analysis and evidence, which is what this Government are determined to provide in this great debate. The Scottish Government seem willing and able to swap a good partnership for some kind of new dependency, and that is not right.
Scotland Bill
Ian Murray Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Mr Bain
It is intriguing. We have several descriptions: “indy-lite”, “devo-plus”, “devo-max”. Various formulations for additional powers have been put out for public discussion. I think this is “devo-positive”. It will give the Scottish Parliament additional democratic legitimacy by enabling it to raise about 35% of what it spends—far more than at present—but without the race to the bottom with other countries or parts of the United Kingdom on tax rates, including corporate tax rates, which would be very damaging for growth.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Lots of adjectives have been attached to the word “devo” with regards to the debate about the constitutional settlement in Scotland. Given that the Scottish National party supported it, then did not support it, then supported it again, then did not support it, then supported it again, could this be “devo-hokey cokey”?
Pete Wishart
One of the first things we did when we came into government, back in 2007, was to ensure that we were a Scottish Government. If it looks like a Government, walks like a Government and quacks like a Government, it is a Government. We will continue to be that Government. The days of the unambitious Labour-Liberal Executive have now gone, and thank goodness for that.
We welcome the amendments, and I look forward to discussing the others and finding out why the Labour party has changed its mind on—
Pete Wishart
I have just about finished my speech, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind. I have had enough of Labour Members’ interventions, as they all tend to be on the same theme, but I thank him for his interest.
We will support the Lords amendments. It is in Scotland’s interests that the powers should be transferred, and we will continue to support the rest of the amendments.
Mrs McGuire
I appreciate I am a blushing violet sitting here and you obviously did not quite see me, Mr Deputy Speaker. You are one of the few men who could say that they did not see me—even on this matter, but never mind!
I want to deal with the comments made by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on this group of miscellaneous amendments. I think his comments are indicative of the fact that it does not matter how much devolution is given to Scotland or is agreed with the people of Scotland, it is never enough for a party that has only one ambition in this life, which is to separate Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. Such a party will continue to throw around the sort of parliamentary insults that the hon. Gentleman managed to put into his short contribution—such as “unambitious”. Frankly, it is not unambitious to provide the greatest transfer of powers to the Scottish people, and to give not just fiscal autonomy, which is a camouflage for independence, but fiscal responsibility to the Scottish Parliament.
I can see that you are getting agitated, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I may not be addressing the amendments, so let me deal with amendment 7, which is about health professionals. I have some concern about it. Although there is significant devolution of power, there is still cross-border traffic when it comes to health professionals. It was rational to say that this should have been a reserved power. However, it was yesterday’s statement by the First Minister that convinced me that this was probably the right way to go. We are now going to have not only the same Queen, the same currency and the same NATO, but, I hope, the same level of regulatory provision for health professionals, too.
I welcome the amendment, but I ask the Minister to convince me that there will be enough communication and consideration between the UK Government and the Scottish Government to ensure that we keep in sync health professional regulation between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, so that people do not feel that they will get a different level of professionalism from the people they need to trust for their medical care according to whether they live north or south of the border.
Ian Murray
My right hon. Friend is creating an important narrative for the link between the national health services in Scotland and in the rest of the United Kingdom. Does she agree that that probably explains how the Scottish National party ended up voting on the Health and Social Care Bill—because of the interlinked nature of the NHS between Scotland and the rest of the UK?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The amendment refers only to leaving something out, which is all we are effectively debating. I have allowed some latitude, but I have to watch that we do not stray too far away from the amendment. I understand that the provisions affect Scotland and that hon. Members want to open up the debate, but we must try to stick to the amendments.
Mr Bain
My hon. Friend raises a pertinent point, because although we hear demands for powers made by certain parties, no purpose is ever given for the devolution of those powers. It is a staggering omission that we know absolutely nothing about the future of stamp duty land tax, given that it is due to be devolved to Holyrood in just a few short years. We have heard about the lack of evidence provided for the devolution of other taxes, with the Institute for Fiscal Studies setting out convincing evidence in its “Green Budget” a few months ago that devolving corporation tax would involve a race to the bottom and be a very risky endeavour indeed.
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend is being incredibly generous in giving way again. Is it not the case that the setting of corporation tax was devolved to Northern Ireland simply to allow it to equalise its rate with the rate on the other side of the land border to the south? Indeed, the First Minister of Scotland’s speech at the Institute of Directors yesterday, in which he said that he would use the taxation powers only to equalise the rates, highlights why corporation tax should not be devolved to Scotland.
Mr Bain
The other implication of devolving corporation tax for it to be reduced to the levels that apply in the Republic of Ireland is that £2.6 billion would be lost from the Scottish block as a result. That would not be in the interests of economic growth, services, health or education in Scotland. As PricewaterhouseCoopers said in its report to Scottish Parliament’s Bill Committee on the Bill, the cut in corporation tax was only the 16th or 17th highest reason for companies investing in the Republic of Ireland, while most of the investment in the Republic of Ireland occurred when corporation taxes were not at the reduced level. The case for devolving corporation tax has therefore not been made. As we have seen in the past few days, with confusion over income tax policy and no rule on what debt levels a separate Scottish state would have, the First Minister’s plans for separation seem to be dissolving into yet another omnishambles.
Rory Stewart
I thank the hon. Gentleman very much indeed.
Having been a little rhetorical, I will return to the measures set out in the new clause proposed in Lords amendment 18. I congratulate the example set by my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South in the moderation of his tone. The conduct of the Ministers in this regard, which has been praised by the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie)—he is now leaving the Chamber to research in his history books—shows exemplary co-operation and is an example of why the United Kingdom Parliament works so well. The moderate voices of the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South and the shadow Minister show that separation is unnecessary. The correct praise for the Scottish National party for its successes shows the successes of autonomy, not of separation and independence. If we can get the principles of transparency correct and the exact details of Lords amendment 18, the sinews of the Union, the point-by-point, sometimes dry legislative amendments that allow us to work together and avoid what the Scottish National party wishes to push us into—a black-and-white solution of either fatal inertness or still more terrible activity—we will instead, through a voice of passionate moderation and amendments of this sort, keep together the Union that made us great and will make us greater still.
Ian Murray
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), who has a great knowledge of everything historical and has driven the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) out of the Chamber to hunt out not only his history books, but no doubt his horned helmet. If he can drive SNP Members out of the Chamber with such ease, he should speak here more often to ensure they disappear.
I, too, wish to concentrate on Lords amendment 18 and its proposed new clause, and that is for one simple reason: transparency. Transparency is the word that hits the new clause on the head, as the hon. Gentleman suggested. We need transparency because over the past few months, and indeed since the Scottish parliamentary elections in 2011, we have had anything but from the Scottish Government. We have had smoke and mirrors on tax, the constitutional settlement, the currency, visa arrangements and NATO—the list is endless. One of the most prevalent calls in Scotland in the debate on separation is for transparency on taxation, because that feeds into public services and the ordinary lives of everyone who lives in Scotland and, indeed, the other component parts of the United Kingdom.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Does he agree that there is a strong case for transparency from the Scottish Parliament on how money is spent, because we have not always had that?
Ian Murray
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising one of the key points on why we need transparency. The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border said clearly that transparency helps not only the Scottish people to determine how their money is spent and allocated, but the other component parts of the United Kingdom to see how money is spent in Scotland, which would be welcomed by everyone in this House. Indeed, we have not even had transparency on the Bill itself. The Bill has been called “a poison pill”, “a dog’s breakfast” and “dangerous” by the same party that voted for it, campaigned against it and will, no doubt, vote for the amendments if the House divides this afternoon.
We need transparency from the Scottish Government at every level on what they wish to achieve. In the past few months, we have heard the Scottish National party say in public—the records are available—that it would reduce fuel duty, reduce corporation tax to the level it is in Ireland, and will be in Northern Ireland, which is 12.5 %, and that it would reduce duties and business rates. I am not an expert on taxation systems or, indeed, on algorithms or mathematics, but it seems that that would lower every single tax in Scotland, so I pose the question, where would the money come from? There is only one place that it can come from, and that is public services, so, on the report that would come from the Secretary of State concerning those powers, I challenge the Scottish Government and the Scottish National party to tell us, with regard to every single tax that they wish to lower or decrease, where the money will come from and where the money will go.
Let us take corporation tax, which my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) mentioned, and which is a complicated issue. I mentioned smoke and mirrors at the start of my contribution, and there has been a lot of smoke and mirrors from the Scottish Government on corporation tax. They have used the example of Northern Ireland, but there are two clear lessons from Northern Ireland.
As I said in an intervention, Northern Ireland wants corporation tax devolved to equalise its rate with the country on its land border to the south and ensure that it is not disadvantaged. That highlights two things: first, that the land border is important; and secondly that corporation tax levels, when they are lowered to such a drastic state as we have seen in Ireland, create an uncompetitive situation and a race to the bottom.
We cannot afford that race to the bottom in the United Kingdom, with its land border between England and Scotland, because it would create an environment in which the money that came out of the block grant—some £2.6 billion if the rate were equalised with Ireland’s at 12.5%—would have to come from public services.
The Scottish Government have yet to tell us which public services they would cut. The national health service already has far fewer nurses in Scotland than it did in 2007, and the Scottish Government have yet to tell us where the money would come from in terms of public services, so I should welcome the debate and the evidence that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) tells us we should have about corporation tax, because perhaps the Scottish Government could lay out that information, and the report under discussion, which would come back annually to the House until those taxation powers had been fully devolved, would be very welcome and could examine some of those issues.
The smoke and mirrors continues, because the First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, when he was in London yesterday, no doubt met his London SNP colleagues to discuss these issues. In his speech to the Institute of Directors he suggested that, with the powers in the Bill transferred to Scotland, income tax levels in Scotland would not be changed. One of the key points here is that the Scottish Parliament has powers to reduce or to increase income tax in Scotland by 3p, but the Scottish Government chose not to maintain HMRC’s systems to enable that, so we are left with the Scottish Government and, indeed, the First Minister jumping up and down like little children, demanding powers—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I have given the hon. Gentleman some latitude, but I am sure that he is coming back to the debate which we are having here about the importance and relevance of the report.
Ian Murray
I will be coming back to the report this very second, because it is about transparency, and what we have had quite clearly from the Scottish Government is a complete lack of transparency. I hope that the report allows us some, because when the Bill receives Royal Assent, we will have a Scottish rate of income tax, the devolution of stamp duties, the devolution of landfill tax, the power to create new taxes and the power to borrow of many billions of pounds—borrowing powers, incidentally, which the Scottish Government did not want but have planned to use. So it is quite important that the report comes back.
With this amendment, the Lords have done a good job of enabling us to see where the new taxes will go. I certainly welcome it and will support it later this afternoon.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Murray Excerpts(12 years ago)
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The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is entirely right. While it is clear that the Burmese regime is making some steps towards greater freedom and democracy, we should be extremely cautious and extremely careful. We want to see the further release of political prisoners, we want to see the resolution of ethnic conflicts and we want to see that democratisation process continue. That is why we are pushing across Europe for the suspension of sanctions, excluding the arms embargo, which should stay, rather than for the lifting of sanctions. We now have support for that position from most other leading European countries, and I hope that we can deliver it. That would be the right thing in demonstrating to the regime that we want to back progress, and it would also strongly support what Aung San Suu Kyi has said is the right approach.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
8. My constituents are angry that the Prime Minister’s priority in the Budget was to give a £40,000 tax cut to millionaires. Will he tell the House how much collectively, as a result of the reduction in the top rate of income tax, his Cabinet will be better off?