Trade Bill

Ian Murray Excerpts

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

I am sure that in Committee my right hon. and learned Friend will again wish to bring his expertise to bear, but I say to him again that the Government do not seek to make any substantial changes to the agreements that already exist. There are some unavoidable changes—for example, the disaggregation of tariff-rate quotas—that we will have to introduce, but they will simply be done to bring the greatest continuity possible to arrangements. As I have said several times, when it comes to new agreements, the Government will bring forward new proposals, where we can ensure that there will be adequate scrutiny of any new agreements that we want with countries once we have left the EU.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I wish just to push the Secretary of State on one point. What will be the process in this House if, for example, the South Korea trade deal, which is currently an EU trade deal, is transposed to UK law to be a UK trade deal and the South Koreans decide to renegotiate the deal on Scotch whisky? What goes through this House?

[Dr Fox]

Having had substantial discussions already with the South Koreans, I can tell the House that there is no plan to do anything such as the hon. Gentleman suggests. That is why I say to him that this is not about new trade agreements; it is about continuity of what we have at the present time.

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[Barry Gardiner]

The honest answer to my hon. Friend is that I do not know, although I share his suspicion that that might well be the case. The point is that the Bill shows that the Government’s expectation is that these are not simply roll-over agreements and that, precisely as he suggests, third countries may demand additional features in new agreements. On that point, he is absolutely right and the Secretary of State is absolutely wrong.

[Ian Murray]

My hon. Friend will know that trade agreements require negotiation—it takes two to tango. This Parliament will be asked to delegate powers to the Secretary of State and the Executive to make changes to bilateral agreements with countries that already have EU bilateral agreements, so decisions that might involve sectors such as the Scotch whisky industry being thrown under a bus to protect other sectors will not come to this House.

[Barry Gardiner]

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct to say that that is a possibility, but while I have disagreements with the Secretary of State, do I think he is so foolish as to throw the Scotch whisky sector under a bus? No, I do not, because it is a very important player in our economy, as my hon. Friend knows. However, the point he makes is entirely right: it is possible that new interpolations in old agreements may do damage to other sectors. The point remains that this House—I repeat, this House—is the appropriate place for that to be scrutinised.

Clauses 5 and 6 deal with the establishment of the Trade Remedies Authority. We of course welcome the establishment of a new authority as an essential pillar of our international trade policy to ensure that British manufacturers are not exposed to dumping or other countries’ unfair trading practices.

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[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

Happy new year, Madam Deputy Speaker, to you and everyone in the House. I want to send a clear message to my constituents, in response to the invitation of the hon. Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies), that I hope this Parliament votes some time to continue to participate in the single market and the customs union to protect the very jobs, businesses and future prosperity that he wants his constituents to be part of.

I am sorry if I sound slightly cynical this early in 2018, but the Secretary of State—I am sorry that he is not in his place—said on 15 June 2016, a matter of days before the referendum, “After we Vote Leave, we would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals”. Then, a year ago, on 9 January 2017, he said, “We are unable to negotiate new trade agreements while we are members of the EU.” He repeated that in the House during his opening statement. I am sorry if I appear slightly cynical about trusting the Government and believing that the powers will be used only if necessary, but I just do not believe that the intentions of the Government in these kinds of trade deals are honourable. I will highlight that with another point.

This Parliament will have no decision-making power at all on trade deals that are currently bilateral trade deals with the European Union. The point that I made to the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State is that it takes two to tango in trade deals. If the bilateral partner is unhappy with any element of the trade deal, they will seek to renegotiate it. This Parliament will have no say on that. We will have no power to change any single trade deal that is negotiated, whether it be chlorinated chicken, beef containing antibiotics, car parts or anything in the supply chain. When Governments negotiate trade deals, there have to be trade-offs: not every party can get everything. I have an awful lot of respect for the Minister for Trade Policy in the job that he is trying to do in the Department, but I would like him to come to the Dispatch Box and tell Parliament, the country and the people employed in the manufacturing of goods and services in this country what sectors the Government are willing to throw under the bus to protect the sectors that he thinks are important.

[The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands)]

The hon. Gentleman is making some important points, but like his Front-Bench colleague he is conflating future trade agreements with current trade agreements. To the best of my knowledge, no one we are speaking to is seeking significant revision of those trade agreements. They are speaking to us to roll over the existing trade agreements, which has nothing to do with a future free trade agreement, which I think the hon. Gentleman is deliberately conflating.

[Ian Murray]

So the Minister is telling the House that the 65 trade agreements currently between the EU and other countries will be grandfathered across to UK law without any changes. I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, but that is utterly, completely impossible.

[Greg Hands]

I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman has misquoted me. I am not saying that. What I am saying is that none of those third parties is seeking significant changes to those agreements. I am not saying that we will be successful in rolling over all those agreements. We are seeking to be successful in doing so, and that is a very different matter.

[Ian Murray]

Whether it be mutton flaps, which my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) talked about in the case of Samoa, the Scotch whisky industry, car parts or anything that this country currently exports, the people who have been watching this debate tonight should look at the television, rewind to 5.15 and listen to the Minister’s two responses. His first response was, “Nothing will change.” His second response was, “Nothing significant will change.” Whatever the process is, and whatever does change, this Parliament will get absolutely no say.

The Minister is right, and the Secretary of State hid behind this as well. The Secretary of State says, “Everyone is wrong today because we are talking about current trade deals.” So am I. Let us take South Korea as an example. The South Korea trade deal took a long time to conclude. A significant proportion of the deal affects the Scotch whisky industry—an industry that is doing rather well at the moment. If the South Koreans decide that that part of the agreement is not quite what they want, but this Government decide, “It’s okay; it is an existing trade deal so it is covered by this Bill. We will grandfather it across, but we will renegotiate that part,” this Parliament, I representing my constituents and people who represent the food and drink industry in this country will get no significant say. That is exactly what the Bill does.

[Greg Hands]

rose—

[Ian Murray]

The Minister can maybe clarify when he sums up the debate, and I hope he does, because he has created a bit of confusion.

I say this in the greatest of spirit to my own Front Benchers. I do not disagree with their movement on retaining the customs union and the single market during the transitional phase, but I do disagree with them on this. I say, with all due respect, that is no difference in principle, or even in practice, between a customs union and the customs union. I just hope that at some point, somebody looks at the significant detriment that this country will suffer from ceasing participation in both the single market and the customs union, and realises it is bad for the country.

I do not say that to be rebellious or to undermine the Front Bench. I say it as a constructive comment from someone who disagrees with the current policy of my own Front Benchers. I hope we are able to move on that, because it is not about membership of the single market or the customs union; it is about the participation in them. If the EU decides that the negotiating position should be a certain way for this country, it will fall on future generations to take that burden.

It is beyond my comprehension that the Government have taken off the negotiating table participation in the single market and the customs union. The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, the customs Bill—the ways and means Bill that we debated yesterday—and the Trade Bill that we are debating today, all boil down to one singular point. We could have extended our Christmas and new year holiday by another week, two weeks or three weeks by staying in the single market and the customs union, because all this legislation would be completely and utterly unnecessary. It would solve the Northern Ireland border problem, so the north-south problems on the island of Ireland would be resolved. It would solve the east-west problem between the island of Ireland and the United Kingdom. It would solve the problem with our having to renegotiate the trade deals between the EU and the UK—the very trade deals that may not have any significant changes, but may have significant changes—and it would take away the unmitigated, unprecedented and unnecessary Executive power grab from this Parliament to Downing Street that, in my view, is completely and utterly unacceptable.

I shall finish by saying why I think the Minister and the Government are on the wrong track. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, appearing before the Foreign Affairs Committee, talked about 50 new staff to enable us to enhance our embassies across the European Union to create bilateral trade deals when we leave the European Union. That is not 50 new staff at all; it is a reallocation of Foreign Office resources. It is new staff in those particular offices, but they are being reallocated in some way or other from other offices, and therefore our bilateral trade potential with third party countries outwith the EU is diminished because resources are having to be put into bilateral negotiations with individual EU member states. That surely shows that the best way for us to move on is to stay in the customs union.

I tabled my amendment to the Bill yesterday to be published today not in any way to undermine anyone and not in any way to undermine my own Front Bench, but merely to continue to make the point that for the future prosperity of this country, to try to turn a very bad situation of our leaving the EU into not quite such a bad situation, we should continue to participate in the two things that would take away all these issues—the single market and the customs union.

[Several hon. Members rose—]