Scotland Bill

Ian Murray Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

I want to raise a technical point that was stimulated in my mind by the comments of the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). It is a fairly minor point, but the aim of the Committee is to bring out such points. The hon. Gentleman referred to the Caledonian sleeper situation in which someone got on a train late at night in Glasgow, Edinburgh or somewhere else in Scotland and found that they were in England after midnight. There could also be a situation in which someone got on a train before midnight in Glasgow or Edinburgh, expecting to be in England after midnight, but found, on looking out of the window, that they were in fact in a siding in Carstairs due to the vagaries of the weather—a situation that has perhaps faced some of us in the past.

Leaving that fairly limited example aside, it occurs to me that the issue the hon. Gentleman raises could have wider implications. Take the situation of someone who lives in Dumfriesshire or the borders, perhaps in the constituency of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell). That person may live in Scotland but be a night-shift worker in England—perhaps a delivery worker for a retailer or a regular night-shift worker in a factory. Such a person could be defined as being in England, rather than in Scotland, under one definition even though he clearly lived in Scotland—or vice versa. It probably would not be appropriate to amend the Bill specifically to cover this issue, but it should certainly be given some thought. Perhaps the Minister could consider it with a view to giving guidance to clarify how such a situation should be addressed. A large number of people would not be affected in that way, but more than a handful might, so it would be useful to get clarification on such points from the Minister now or later.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

This evening’s debate has centred around the complexities of this hugely complex legislation. I had not intended to speak, but I, too, was prompted by the contribution of the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), which led me to think about my experience of running a small business with 12 to 14 staff, doing payroll on a weekly basis and the huge complexities of keeping up with changes in legislation and making sure that my staff were aware of such legislation. Hon. Members would not believe the number of staff I have employed over many years who did not understand what a tax code was, how they were taxed on their income and how national insurance was involved.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

Some of the previous speakers, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) and the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), should remember that these proceedings are televised and that the public hope to understand what we are talking about. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) has kept his contribution fairly simple so far, but I failed to understand some of the earlier contributions.

[Ian Murray]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention, which highlights the fact that the Government’s agenda for growth is about growth in the small and medium-sized enterprise sector, and making sure that small businesses in particular can contribute a significant amount to the private sector to take up the slack caused by the job cuts in the shrinking public sector. However, the complexity of the legislation we are examining is detrimental to the many small business owners who will be concerned about the complex process they will have to go through to make sure that they employ people in accordance with the right piece of income tax legislation. Many issues have been raised about travel—I do not call the train the Caledonian sleeper; I call it the Caledonian keep-you-awake, as I have yet to sleep on it—and I hope that the legislation does not include provisions on where someone falls asleep, otherwise my own tax affairs could be rather complex.

We must consider the issue of close connection. People may work in a different part of the UK, but it is not necessarily the place that they call home. Any Scottish MP who has regularly done the trip from Scotland to London will recognise many faces on their train or flight as people who work in London Monday to Thursday. They leave Scotland on Sunday night, and return on Thursday evening or Friday morning to their family. They would not regard themselves as English income taxpayers. They would very much regard themselves as being resident in Scotland. It is where they call home, but, as we have heard from the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South, it would not necessarily be classified as their place of residence for the payment of income tax.

[Jim McGovern]

My hon. Friend will have used the Caledonian sleeper. Does he agree that “Murder on the Orient Express” has nothing to do with that train?

[Ian Murray]

I was about to say that I was delighted to receive an intervention from my hon. Friend, but perhaps I should say that I have noted his comments, and will move on.

I should like to mention Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. At my surgery—no doubt this is the case at the surgeries and advice sessions of many right hon. and hon. Members—I have been beset by the complicated problems that my constituents have experienced as a result of their not understanding the HMRC process. Indeed, taxation errors have been made by both HMRC and employers. HMRC is undoubtedly under pressure, with more job losses over the next few years. In fact, I think its work force will have halved by 2015. I hope that the Government will take into account the complexities of the legislation to make sure that HMRC has the resources to be able to deal with it properly. The Federation of Small Businesses has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) in connection with the number of small businesses that use the pay-as-you-earn system. There are problems with self-assessment, which can become complex for someone who satisfies some of the tests of the legislation, but conducts personal business in different parts of the UK.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) raised the issue of tax avoidance. If there are different income tax rates in Scotland and England, I hope that HMRC will have the resources to deal with that so that people do not deliberately try to satisfy the tests of the legislation to benefit from a different income tax rate on the other side of the border. Many of the constituents of the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) will be affected by those cross-border issues, as we have heard.

HMRC definitely needs the resources required to be able to deal with that properly, and to put provisions in place to make sure that people understand the system. All too often, as the Member representing Edinburgh South, I have dealt with self-employed constituents who have filled in self-assessment forms and then experienced a hard-nosed approach from HMRC in some pretty dreadful letters. Some letters say that it will send agents round to seek to pin down possessions and sell them to cover the debt when, in fact, HMRC has made an error in its tax coding and the problem has to be sorted out at a different level.

All those issues come together. The measure is welcome, as it gives the Scottish Government and Parliament real accountability for the proportion of tax that they can raise locally in Scotland for the people of Scotland. However, we must be aware that there will be many small businesses, employers and employees who will be concerned about how the measure will operate. If the system is to be accountable and is to operate practically for the benefit of the people of Scotland and for the Scottish Parliament, we must make sure that it is not undermined by a complex set of rules that are easily circumvented as a result of tax avoidance or because genuinely self-employed or small businesses cannot understand it sufficiently. We must put support in place to ensure that they follow the rules properly and so that the measure operates in the most effective manner.

[Mr Gauke]

We have had a lengthy and thorough debate. First, I intend to address the amendments and then set out in a little more detail the various tests on what constitutes a Scottish taxpayer. Finally, I hope to pick up the points that have been made in the debate and try to answer as many technical questions as possible. Whether I will be able to find the solution to the question of whether Mr Stewart senior is a Scottish taxpayer remains to be seen, but I will do my best.

Amendment 68 would require the Scottish Parliament to consult such persons as Scottish Ministers consider appropriate before setting the Scottish rate. I believe that that is inappropriate, as it interferes with the accountability of the Scottish Parliament to the people of Scotland. It should not be for the UK Parliament to tell the Scottish Parliament or Scottish Ministers how they should go about setting the rate of tax. It is for them to decide and ultimately to be accountable for that decision to the Scottish people through the ballot box. There is nothing to stop the Scottish Parliament in its Standing Orders including a requirement to consult or take evidence on setting the rate if it wishes to do so. Rule 6.6 of the Standing Orders of the Scottish Parliament sets the remit of its Finance Committee, which is required to consider and report on, among other things,

“proposals for the making of a tax-varying resolution”.

It will be for the Scottish Parliament to decide whether a similar provision should be made in relation to any proposal to set the Scottish rate of income tax. That is a matter for the Scottish Parliament—it is not something that we should prescribe in Westminster.

Amendment 69 requires the Treasury formally to consult Scottish Ministers, the Scottish Parliament and other persons before it uses its powers to disapply or modify the application of the Scottish rate of income tax. It may help if I describe the purpose of this power. We plan to use it to set some of the detailed rules on the operation of the Scottish rate of income tax, because any changes have to operate within the UK income tax framework, which is a reserved matter. The Scottish Parliament has given its consent to the Bill through the legislative consent motion, which includes that power and the way in which it will operate. It was not raised as a concern by the Scottish Bill Committee in its extensive scrutiny of the measure.

Having said that, I can confirm that HMRC will work closely with all parties concerned, and it has set up three technical groups that include representatives of business and of individual taxpayers. The Scottish Government participates in all those groups, which cover in particular how reliefs for charitable contributions and pensions will be treated. The Government will publish draft legislation in advance, giving all parties an opportunity to comment. That is very much in line with our approach outlined in “Tax policy making: a new approach”, which was published at the time of the June Budget. Tax policy making has been criticised as piecemeal and reactive. I want a new approach, with consultation on policy design and scrutiny of draft legislative proposals as its cornerstone.

I accept the motivation behind the amendment, but I hope that the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) agrees that this is something we are very much doing already, so the amendment is unnecessary. Proposed new section 80G of the Scotland Act 1998 provides the Treasury with supplementary powers to allow modifications to be made at a later date. It allows, for example, certain types of income or relief to be included or excluded from the Scottish rate to provide the flexibility to be able to respond to stakeholder input and the changing environment.

Subsection (4) of new section 80G gives the Treasury a limited power to make any changes retrospective to the beginning of the tax year. The timing of the Budget cycle is such that many Finance Bills contain proposals that come into effect before Royal Assent. I hesitate to bring back painful memories for the official Opposition, but hon. Members might recall that the previous Government introduced a clause on Report of the Finance Bill 2008, increasing the personal allowance by £600 in 2008-09 in response to pressure over the abolition of the 10p rate of income tax. As is common, Royal Assent did not occur until the summer of that year—until 21 July 2008 to be precise—but that clause took effect from the start of the tax year. A more technical example is section 60 of the Finance Act 2006, which I imagine you recall well, Ms Primarolo. That redefined the income tax exemption for employer-provided mobile telephones, and removed the ability of the family or household of the employee to use such a phone tax free. The clause took effect for the tax year 2006-07, but did not receive Royal Assent until 19 July 2006.