Amendment of the Law

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 23rd March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves]

My hon. Friend is right to talk about the experience of people in his Huddersfield constituency. People in Huddersfield, Yorkshire and around the country will, I think, be slightly shocked by the degree of complacency from the Secretary of State today and from the Chancellor last week, when for them and their families things are very often getting harder, not easier.

The Government have failed to control social security spending, as they promised they would, because they have failed to tackle the true causes of rising welfare spending, such as low pay and the lack of affordable housing, and because they have failed to deliver the flagship reforms the Secretary of State made such great claims for five years ago. What a tragic waste of time, talent and taxpayers’ money: wasting the precious time of sick and disabled people forced to wait for months on end for the support they so desperately need; wasting the talents of people who are not getting the help they need to get into work, or who are stuck in low-paid insecure jobs that my hon. Friends have spoken of that do not make the most of their potential; and wasting money on IT systems that do not work, assessment and appeals procedures that have descended into chaos, and soaring spending on in-work benefits because of this Government’s failure to build an economy that actually rewards hard work.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady talks about what she calls soaring benefit costs. Does she accept that under her Government not only did in-work benefits rise by more than 50%, but housing benefit for those out of work rose by 70%? In other words, both in-work and out-of-work housing benefit claims rose dramatically under her Government.

[Rachel Reeves]

Under the last two Conservative Governments, unemployment reached 2.5 million. There was a global financial crisis during the period of the last Labour Government, and as a result, unemployment rose, but it has risen even further under this Government, from 1.5 million, when Labour left office, to 1.7 million in February 2012. The OBR’s Budget forecast last week showed a £600 million increase in the forecast for social security spending in just one year, and since 2010, the Government have spent £25 billion more on social security than they set out to spend.

Under the Government, the number of people paid less than the living wage has soared by 44%, while house building has fallen to its lowest levels since the 1920s. It is for those reasons that housing benefit spending—the second-largest area of DWP spending, after pensions—was more than £2 billion higher in 2014-15 than in 2009-10. It was due largely to the rocketing numbers of working people not paid enough to cover their rent. In this Parliament, the Secretary of State has spent £1.8 billion more than he planned on housing benefit for working people and, on current Government forecasts, the cost of working people’s rising reliance on housing benefit to pay their rent will reach £14 billion by the end of the decade, if left unchecked—£488 for every household in the country.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 9th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

Since our last oral questions, the time it will take fully to roll out universal credit on the basis of the latest figures has increased from 1,571 years to 1,605 years, an increase of 34 years in just 42 days. Let me ask about the effect of the policy. In its original impact assessment, the Department for Work and Pensions said that 2.8 million households would be worse off when the policy is fully rolled out. Will the Secretary of States give us his latest assessment of how many households will be entitled to less support under universal credit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady is nothing if not persistent with a useless question, so I will now attempt to answer. Universal credit will benefit the vast majority of households in this country. They will be better off, they will be in work more quickly, they will have longer terms in work and they will earn more. The latest work that has been done, which is independently assessed, shows that universal credit is a net benefit to society. It saves money for the Treasury and helps people. I would have thought that she would say that she backs it, but every time she gets to the Dispatch Box she spends her time trying to attack it. Does she not think that if she wants to be elected to government she needs to stand a little taller and be a little more responsible rather than just playing cheap politics?

[Rachel Reeves]

Instead of lecturing me, perhaps the Secretary of State would like to answer the question. The truth, revealed in a written answer by the Minister for Disabled People on 3 February, is that another 200,000 households are set to be worse off under universal credit, because to make up for all the waste and delays on universal credit, the Government are reducing the support that they provide to low-paid workers. Is not the truth that universal credit—the one policy that the Secretary of State had to build a better benefits system and make work pay—is being continually scaled down and pushed back because of his inability to deliver anything that remotely looks like being on time and on budget, and are not the hundreds of millions of pounds spent on universal credit so far just another example of his welfare waste?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

So there we have it: an Opposition who think that they will govern by innuendo and clap-trap. What we have heard from them is a lot of nonsense from start to finish. Listening to the hon. Lady, I wonder whether she is even the slightest bit prepared for government—although she will not be lucky enough to get into government. We heard another little speech from the shadow Chancellor today, in which he did not lay out one single policy on welfare, the economy or anything else at all. What we have from the Opposition—this is why they will not get into government—is constant nonsense, cheap politics and a total waste of time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 26th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

In 2011, the Secretary of State said that, by April 2014, 1 million people would be receiving universal credit. With delays and write-offs, that date has been and gone, so will he answer the question that my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) asked, but which was not answered, and give a guarantee to the House that he will meet his latest target of just 100,000 people receiving universal credit by May 2015?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I say to the hon. Lady that we intend to, and I repeat the answer I gave earlier. I know she wants to dance around on these things, but she has to say whether she genuinely supports universal credit or whether she plans to get rid of it, as that seems to be becoming Labour party policy.

[Rachel Reeves]

We have been consistent: we support universal credit, but not throwing good money after bad, and we will go ahead with it only if the National Audit Office signs it off and says it will save more money than it costs, which is far from clear at the moment.

Last week’s figures show that the glacial pace continues, with still only 26,940 people receiving universal credit. At this rate of progress, it will take 1,571 years before it is fully rolled out. The Secretary of State protests that it would be riskier to go faster, but he has only himself to blame for the undeliverable targets he set and the unrealistic claims he made for this flagship policy. Is not the truth that, having failed to deliver the one policy that could have helped make work pay over this Parliament, all he is left with is a toxic legacy of rising child benefit and reliance on food banks and a ballooning benefits bill for people in work—a record of Tory welfare waste that, if I were him, I would rather run from than run on?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I bet that looked good on a piece of paper when she wrote it. Honestly, here we go again Let me just remind the hon. Lady what her party left behind. It left a welfare budget that had “ballooned”—her word—by 60%. On tax credits alone, in the six years before the election, her Government spent £175 billion. They ballooned their welfare spending; unemployment rose; the economy crashed; people found themselves out of work—and her Government were to blame for all that. We have reformed welfare, and let me remind the hon. Lady that, at the end of this Parliament, we will have saved £50 billion from the bills Labour left us; housing benefit has come down; the number of jobseeker’s allowance claimants has fallen; and before she writes a script again, she might like to test it for accuracy. They—the Labour party—have failed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 8th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I thank my hon. Friend who, with some of his colleagues, has put in a huge amount of effort to bring this to the Government’s attention. The new scheme is already making payments, with compensation averaging £125,000 for this desperate and terrible disease. We know that there are many more victims and families to be encouraged to come forward, and the Government are promoting that through the regional press and work in administrations to publish it further. Should the need arise—and should it be possible—we will keep this under review with a view to possibly raising that as well.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s comments that he takes today’s report on food banks seriously, especially after previously refusing to meet the Trussell Trust. However, does he recognise the reality depicted by the Archbishop of Canterbury who said that

“hunger stalks large parts of our country”,

often because of problems with the benefits system? Even being in work and earning money no longer appears to offer complete protection against extreme food poverty.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do take this report seriously. We have met the Trussell Trust—I have never refused to meet it—and I have met many others from a number of food banks. The reality is that of course there are things that need doing. It is a wide-ranging report that deals with food distribution as well, as I said to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), and with supermarkets and the amount of food that is disposed of and how we can distribute that. There was a very good debate on Radio 4 about that, but of course, as I said to her colleague the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), one of the areas that they and our own internal report highlighted was what we do to raise awareness. Today I have announced that we shall be doing much more to raise awareness of interim payments for people who need them, particularly those who are in difficulty.

[Rachel Reeves]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, but frankly it is not enough. The findings of this morning’s all-party report are clear: the rise in food poverty is the consequence of the failing safety net and the worsening cost of living crisis. Just a few weeks before Christmas, it is shocking that more and more families are worrying about where their next meal is going to come from. Food banks have become the shameful symbol of this Tory-led Government, and yet another example of Tory welfare waste. Is it not about time that the Government started to put this right by raising the minimum wage, ending the abuse of zero-hours contracts, getting a grip on benefit delays, scrapping targets for sanctions and cancelling the cruel and unfair bedroom tax? If they do not do these things, is it not about time we had a Labour Government who will?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The same old rubbish from the Opposition! May I just remind the hon. Lady that this Government have done a huge amount for the poorest? The tax allowance is up to £10,000 by April, saving £825 per year. Under this Government, the national minimum wage has gone up by 3%, more than earnings and more than inflation. There are free school meals for primary school pupils—1.5 million children will be getting them. The cost of living is coming down, too. Food prices are falling, and motor fuel prices are down. The hon. Lady wanted to make this a political issue, but I remind her of what the Archbishop of Canterbury said today: it would be wrong to play political games with such an important issue. Perhaps she should listen more and speak less.

Universal Credit

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. However, the announcement in this morning’s press release confirms that universal credit is rolling out at a glacial pace. It is just another example of Tory welfare waste. We all know that simplifying and integrating our benefits system has the potential to help people into work and to progress in work. That is why the Opposition have always supported the principle of universal credit and want it to succeed, despite the Secretary of State’s best attempts to make a complete and utter shambles of it.

The Secretary of State has already informed the House that universal credit would be rolled out to families with children this year, but today’s statement tells us nothing more about how many families will be claiming it, in which areas of the country, and whether that will include families with someone in work or families with a disabled member. We were told that at the beginning of next year universal credit would be rolled out to all jobcentres across the country. That has now turned into one in three jobcentres by next spring, but we still do not know which jobcentres, in which parts of the country, whether those jobcentres themselves have been informed and, more importantly, whether local partners, including councils and voluntary sector organisations, which have such a critical role to play in making the roll-out work, have been informed.

However, there was one new revelation buried at the bottom of this morning’s press release: an admission from the Secretary of State that the delivery of this policy will now not be completed until the end of the decade, if then, with only “the bulk” of claimants on legacy benefits transferred by 2019. Let us remind ourselves what the Secretary of State said he would deliver four years ago so that we can see how far plans have gone astray. The White Paper presented to the House in 2010 set out a timetable for

“completing the transfer to Universal Credit by October 2017”.

Since then, the Secretary of State’s timetable has repeatedly slipped, despite repeated assertions that the project was

“on time and on budget”.

In November 2011 the Secretary of State said that he would have 1 million people on universal credit by April 2014. The truth turned out to be just 1% of that figure. The Government told us that they would have 1.7 million people on universal credit by May 2015, but his latest target is for just 100,000 to be on the system by then. As recently as this month, he was insisting that the transfer of all claimants to universal credit would be completed in 2018.

On 5 November, less than three weeks ago, he said in evidence to the Work and Pensions Committee, in response to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce), that

“we do envisage Universal Credit being complete by the end of 2018.”

Yet buried at the bottom of today’s press release we find the admission that only

“the bulk of this exercise will be complete by 2019”.

I hope that the Secretary of State can answer the following questions and give us some clarification and assurance. First, what on earth does he mean by “the bulk”? Is it a new statistical term that we can appeal to the UK Statistics Authority for clarity on? More importantly, given the concerns and the amount of public money at stake, can he not be more precise about how many people he expects to be left on legacy benefits after 2019? Which claimants will those be, and when can we expect them to be transferred on to universal credit?

Secondly, what are the implications of this further delay in the completion of the roll-out and transfer for the project’s administrative costs and the expected savings and benefits being claimed? Can the Secretary of State confirm that the estimate of £35 billion for the project’s benefits remains correct, and has the full business case now been signed off by HM Treasury?

Thirdly, why did the Secretary of State claim on the BBC’s “Today” programme this morning that “almost 40,000” people are “actually claiming” universal credit when the latest figures show that the current caseload is 17,850? Fourthly, can the Secretary of State tell us how many families he expects to be receiving universal credit by the end of 2014 and by May next year? Will only families with both parents out of work be able to claim? Will families including a disabled member be able to claim by May 2015?

Fifthly, will the Secretary of State place in the House of Commons Library a full list of the “one in three” jobcentres that he expects to be handling universal credit claims by the spring? Sixthly, will the extension of universal credit to families with children, and to jobcentres, be on the new digital platform being developed by the Department, or will it still be running on the old system that we know is inadequate for handling large-scale caseloads? Finally, would the Secretary of State care to repeat his claim that this programme is

“on time and on budget”?

I hope that the Secretary of State will be able to answer those simple and fundamental questions about a programme that was held up as the Government’s flagship welfare reform and has already eaten through more than half a billion pounds of public money. If he cannot give straight answers to straight questions, Members of this House and voters will be forced to conclude that, as with the delays we have seen with disability benefits, the failure of the Work programme and the Youth Contract to help key groups into work, and the failure to tackle the low pay, insecurity and housing shortages that are driving up benefit bills, this is just adding to the legacy of Tory welfare waste—wasted money, wasted time, wasted talents and a wasted opportunity to get our economy and our social security system working for all the people of our country.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I must say that I think that the hon. Lady thought that up about a week ago, before she even got near what I have just said in the statement, but never mind—she likes to rehash the old ones, and we will deal with them. She made the point at the end of her statement that somehow the Work programme is not working. The Work programme is outperforming all of the figures that it was meant to. It is also outperforming what we were left by the previous Labour Government: record unemployment and more people who had lost work as a result of their crashed economy. We have more people in work than ever before and more young people now returning to work. Those are the standing plans.

Let me deal with some of the other issues the hon. Lady raised. She talked about what we are doing on universal services. We have already undertaken a huge amount of consultative processes with local authorities and all other partners in the areas. We have a programme called universal services, to be delivered locally, and we are working closely with the Local Government Association in trialling all sorts of elements of that, including the exchange of information on housing, which is an area that previously was not working. The LGA is represented on the programme of governance, the partnership forum and the universal credit transition working group. As universal credit is expanded nationally, delivery partnership agreements will be established locally so that local authorities, jobcentres, landlords and employers can adjust their requirements to prepare for the UC roll-out. That is taking place at the moment and it is helping to inform hugely the process of helping to improve the nature of the roll-out.

As I said in my statement—I repeat this because the hon. Lady seemed not to have picked it up—40,000 people had claimed, over 20,000 had completed the claim process, and 17,500 were currently on universal credit. [Interruption.] No, that is exactly what they have done. Forty thousand had claimed, 20,000 had made the claim and received—[Interruption.] I do not want to go through this nonsense with her. Let me remind her that many of those who started a claim went to work and therefore never completed the process. In case she thinks it is not worth people claiming the benefit because they are not staying on it, our position is that the purpose is to get them off the benefit and into work.

I will be happy to give the hon. Lady a list of the one in three jobcentres that will be covered by the spring. As I said, by the end of this year one in eight jobcentres will be covered. Families will be included. Depending on the type of claimants and their particular issues, they will be dealt with in jobcentres as the benefit is rolled out to them. The timing and delivery remain exactly as they were.

As we have announced today, we will also be rolling out the first part of the digital trial process, and that will inform us hugely on how we will be able to roll out and expand the system. The hon. Lady said that I had only just announced the timing of the roll-out, but in fact I had said it previously. She might want to ask the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), who is sitting next to her, about that. All the dates were in the answer to a parliamentary question from him about a week and a half ago; I cannot remember the exact date. Nothing has been hidden at all—we have been very clear about it.

The long-term strategic outline business case covers the lifetime of the programme from 2023 to 2024 and provides even more granular detail on costs and benefits and delivery planning until, it is expected, 2025. The MPA has approved our roll-out plans and given them a very strong sign-off.

The hon. Lady asked about the information that will be shared automatically. Claimants are asked to give consent to our universal credit teams sharing information about their claims with local authorities to help to highlight extra support that may be needed.

The hon. Lady says that she is in favour of universal credit in principle, but she has voted against it and attacked every single thing to do with it, just as Labour Members say they are in favour of welfare reform in principle but attack and vote against every single part of what we are doing. I have to say that the way she is going, she will get a lot of practice at being in opposition.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 3rd November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

This Government have dealt with huge problems that were left to us. First, we had a collapsed economy. We are now putting that right, and we are also getting more people back to work. The best way to get people out of poverty is to get their families into work. Under this Government, there is now the lowest number of households in poverty.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

As others have remarked, this week is living wage week, when we celebrate the success of employers and campaigners in moving towards getting more workers paid a wage that they can afford to live on. Under this Government, the number of people paid less than a living wage has risen from 3.6 million to 4.9 million—more than one in five people. Does the Secretary of State agree that this Government’s failure to tackle low pay means that more people in work are living in poverty, which is a key reason why the Government are spending £400 million more on housing benefit for people in work than when they came into office?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is good to see the hon. Lady; I know that she did not turn up and vote for her party’s own motion last week, and did not even sign it, but now we have her here. I answer her question by simply saying this: the reality is that we have seen the minimum wage rise faster under this Government than under the previous Government, with an increase of nearly 10% since the election. My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary is doing everything he can to pursue companies that do not pay the minimum wage, and we are prosecuting them.

[Rachel Reeves]

First, I would like the Secretary of State to withdraw what he said about my not being here last week. He does not know the reasons why I was not here, and I expect him to withdraw those comments.

The truth is that the in-work benefits bill is rising in real terms because of this Government’s failure to build a recovery that benefits everyone, not just a few at the top. We have seen a historic squeeze on wages for the majority and the minimum wage falling behind the increase in inflation, with an increase of just 70p in five years. The reality is that taxpayers are footing the bill for the spread of low pay and insecurity under this Government. Is it not time that the Secretary of State adopted Labour’s plans to raise the minimum wage, to get more workers paid a living wage, to ban exploitative zero-hours contracts, and to build an economy that works for all working people?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I remind the hon. Lady that it was under her Government that the minimum wage stalled. Under this Government, it has risen by nearly 10% to £6.50 from October 2014. As for those who are supposed to be worse off, it is calculated using real earnings. Labour Members use a very simplistic calculation, and it does not give the full picture. The reality is that this Government categorically have done more for low-paid people than the previous Government did in their whole time in office.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

As I indicated earlier, I will take the point of order because it relates to these matters.

[Rachel Reeves]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Secretary of State criticised me for not turning up to vote on an Opposition day motion last week. He knows nothing of why I was not able to attend last week. I kindly ask him to withdraw his criticism and apologise for the aspersion that I could not be bothered to turn up to vote in the House of Commons.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I simply made the point that it was good to see the hon. Lady here because she did not turn up to vote in the last debate. I understand that she retweeted that she was in Rochester at the time. She was not put down as a signatory to the motion. Those are the points that I made.

[Rachel Reeves]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Rachel Reeves]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was not in Rochester last week. I will give the Secretary of State one last opportunity to withdraw the aspersion and apologise. He knows nothing of the reason why I was not here last week, so I ask him to withdraw the aspersion and apologise.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I stand by my assertion that the hon. Lady did not vote and that her name was not on the Order Paper.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 1st September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

Two thirds of children in poverty now live in families in which somebody is working, and a record 5 million people are earning less than a living wage. In-work poverty is an injustice and an indignity to those who suffer it, but it also costs the taxpayer through the benefit system. Will the Secretary of State tell us by how much the spending on housing benefit for people in work is expected to increase between 2010 and 2018?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I wish the hon. Lady had been listening to my answer to an earlier question—[Interruption.] No, the reality is that the number of people who are out of work and on housing benefit is falling. The number of those who are in work is rising. Under the last Government, we saw a rise in the number of people who were out of work and having to claim housing benefit. Let me also remind the hon. Lady, who has voted against every single measure we have taken, that our housing benefit reforms were set to reduce the amount of money. When the Labour Government left office, housing benefit was likely to rise to £26 billion. It will now rise at a far slower rate than that, because of the reforms that we have made to housing benefit.

[Rachel Reeves]

The reality is that housing benefit overall is going to go up in real terms from £23 billion at the beginning of this Parliament to £24.6 billion at the end of it. Housing benefit for people in work is forecast to rise by a staggering £12.9 billion between 2010 and 2018. Does that not show that taking action to make work pay would be a much more effective way of controlling housing benefit than the unfair and unworkable bedroom tax, which I and many of my colleagues will be voting to change this Friday, and which we need a Labour Government to repeal after the general election next year?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady is in a hole and she really should stop digging. Let me remind her of what we had to take over when we came into government. Left unreformed, the bill that Labour left us with would have exceeded £26 billion in 2014-15. Instead, today, it is £24 billion—£2 billion less. Under Labour, in-work and out-of-work housing benefit claimant numbers increased, and those who were in more despair, being out of work, had to claim higher payments. Under us, homelessness is down 7%, half the peak that occurred under the last Government, and rent collection is currently 98% higher than under the last Government. Also, housing association arrears fell during the last two quarters. All of that is better than anything that the last Government left us as a result of their record on spending.

DWP: Performance

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 30th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves]

I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman, so, no, I will not.

I know that many hon. Members will have similar stories to tell today, and I hope the Secretary of State stays to listen, because when we write to the Department with our constituents’ problems we only ever get replies from the correspondence unit. I realise that the Secretary of State is probably deluged with letters raising problems.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I am sorry, but I just cannot agree with that. Every letter from a member of the Privy Council gets replied to by me, and every other Minister replies to every single other Member of Parliament’s inquiry. If the hon. Lady is now insinuating that we do not, perhaps she could demonstrate why.

[Rachel Reeves]

Well, I will send the Secretary of State all the letters I have had from his correspondence unit, not one of them signed by him. [Interruption.] Well, letters that I have written to the Department about the challenges facing—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman says he replies to these letters; he has not written a single letter to me about—[Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is the definition given by the consultants who refer the people in question to the programme. That group will be seen and dealt with within the 10 days. That is the definition.

I repeat that by the end of the year those on PIP will not be waiting for longer than 16 weeks.

I say to the hon. Member for Leeds West, who made a poor speech, that my Department has a proven track record of delivery—[Interruption.] In that case, perhaps she will answer this question, which has been raised before. A little while ago, in March, she is recorded as having said that, left to her, “all the changes that the Government has introduced” in welfare reform would be reversed “and all benefits” could be and should be “universal”. She has been asked this question before. It was a quote. I will give way to her if she wants to deny it.

[Rachel Reeves]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

There we have it—we now know what the policy is.

[Rachel Reeves]

The right hon. Gentleman did not read out a quote and I deny what he said.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have to say to the hon. Lady that it is reported that she said that “all changes that the Government has introduced” in welfare could be reversed and “all benefits can be universal”. That is what she is quoted as saying. I will send her the quote if she likes. This is important.

[Rachel Reeves]

As I said, what the right hon. Gentleman read out is not a quote of what I said and I deny that that is my view.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

In that case, will she explain why she was saying—to a group called the Christian socialists, I think—that all the changes that the Government have introduced to welfare can be reversed and all benefits can be universal? That is what she said.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 23rd June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

At the start of this year 3,780 people were claiming universal credit. The most recent numbers show that 5,610 people are receiving the benefit. At this rate of progress, how long will it be until the 7.7 million households that are supposed to receive this Government’s flagship benefit, as the Secretary of State originally set out, are receiving it?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have already made that clear. To date around 11,000 people are on the pathfinders. We have started a roll-out to another 90 sites beyond the 10 sites where the pathfinder took place. There will be further changes and enhancements, and we expect and believe, according to the plan that we laid out, that everybody eligible will be on the benefit by 2017.

[Rachel Reeves]

I think that is the first time I have not heard the Secretary of State say that his project is on time and on budget, but we still hear total and utter complacency. At the present rate of progress, it will take a staggering 1,052 years before universal credit is fully rolled out. So what do we have? Universal credit delayed, personal independence payments delayed and employment and support allowance delayed. Does not the Secretary of State realise that his incompetence is not only wasting tens and hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money, but causing untold pain and hardship for some of the most vulnerable people in our country?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As I said, we are rolling out universal credit to 90 sites and we will deliver it safely and carefully, unlike what the Labour Government did with tax credits. To answer the hon. Lady’s general question about what we are doing, this Department and this Government have undertaken the biggest welfare reform programme ever and we are getting more people into work—there are record numbers in work and record falls in unemployment; and we are getting more young people into work and more young people who have been long-term unemployed back into work. The benefit cap means that 42,000 people have been capped, as a result of which 6,000 have moved into work.

On universal credit, 600,000 claimant commitments have been signed. There are 6.9 million people registered for Universal Jobmatch. The Work programme—[Interruption.] She does not want to hear this because these are all records of the success of welfare reform. Through the Work programme, 550,000 people whom the previous Government wrote off and who never got a job are now back in work, and through auto-enrolment under the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), 3.6 million people have moved into a workplace pension. This is a Government who are reforming welfare. The Opposition have no policies, no purpose and no prospects.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

Just 46% of disabled people are in work, while 40% of disabled people not working report that they want to work. Helping disabled people into work provides them with security and dignity as well as helping control the costs of social security. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what proportion of disabled people referred to the Work programme get a job?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The Work programme has been successful for those who are furthest from the labour market. The group of people the hon. Lady is talking about who suffer from sickness and disability have, for the first time, been worked with and helped back into work. The figures that we are seeing now are slower than we would have wished, but they are, none the less, improving all the time. Let me remind the hon. Lady that no one has ever attempted to get these people back into work. The Work programme is succeeding in helping into work those who were never in work before.

[Rachel Reeves]

The truth is that just 5% of disabled people on the Work programme end up in work. If that is a success, I would like to know what failure is. It is worse than doing nothing. It is a disgrace to let disabled people down in such a way. In the Budget, spending on employment and support allowance was revised up by a staggering £800 million because of delays, incompetence and the complete failure of the Work programme. Will the Secretary of State now agree to take action to help disabled people and give them the support they need and reform the failing Work programme?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Let me remind the hon. Lady that, as I said earlier, for these people, and the previous Government made no effort whatsoever to get them back to work—[Interruption.] No, 2.5 million people were written off on sickness benefits under the previous Government. No one worked with them and about 1 million were left without anybody seeing them for nearly 10 years. That is the record of the previous Government. I simply remind the hon. Lady that since we came to power, some 22,000 have started a job for the first time and many thousands more have worked with the Work programme to get ready for work without a requirement to go to work. The programme is succeeding and improving all the time and this is the first time that the thousands who are going back to work have ever had help—they got none from the previous Government.

amendment of the law

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady has mentioned her jobs guarantee, which Labour has said will involve the private sector. Which companies have actually signed up to it?

[Rachel Reeves]

The compulsory jobs guarantee, which will last for the full five years of the next Parliament, will be based on what we have seen with the jobs growth Wales programme, whereby 80% of the jobs are in the private sector. A couple of weeks ago, the shadow Minister for employment—my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms)—and I visited a software company in Cardiff that had taken on 12 people through jobs growth Wales. It had made a huge difference to those young people, giving them hope and opportunity. The Government carp at our policies to get young people back to work, yet under them long-term youth unemployment has more than doubled. That is the Secretary of State’s record under this Government.

If the Chancellor really wanted this to be a Budget for savers, he would cap fees and charges on pensions and require insurance companies to provide free independent brokerage, as Labour has called for. Why did the Chancellor not do those things? It is because he is strong when it comes to standing up for the rich, but weak when it comes to standing up for the poor.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rachel Reeves]

The right hon. Gentleman will not have to wait too long: at 7 pm, he will find out how we will vote on the different measures. Let us be clear: what matters most of all is what was omitted from last week’s Budget, including a compulsory jobs guarantee, a cap on fees and charges and cancelling the bedroom tax. Those things would make a real difference to the lives of our constituents, but the Chancellor did not even mention them in last week’s Budget statement.

The Secretary of State has not just failed with the Work programme; he is failing with universal credit as well. It is years behind schedule and £130 million has already been wasted on IT, yet the Secretary of State continues to say that his flagship reform is on time and on budget.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

indicated assent.

[Rachel Reeves]

He continues to do so now. If three years later and £130 million down the drain is on time and on budget, that says more about the Secretary of State’s grasp of mathematics than anything else.

The truth is that from Easterhouse—where the Secretary of State had his epiphany—to the Vatican, people are queuing up to tell the realities of this Government’s reforms. Rosemary Dixon, the chief executive of a charity on the Easterhouse estate in Glasgow—the Secretary of State might remember her—has said that the simple truth is that “things are going backwards.” A letter from 27 bishops stated that

“we must, as a society, face up to the fact that over half of people using foodbanks have been put in that situation by cut backs to and failures in the benefit system, whether it be payment delays or punitive sanctions.”

Archbishop Vincent Nichols has said that

“the role of food banks has been crucial to so many people in Britain today and for a country of our affluence, that quite frankly is a disgrace.”

The Secretary of State says that he is on a moral crusade. The people affected by his policies know what sorts of morals he has.

Housing Benefit

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Wednesday 26th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves]

All that money could have been spent on building the houses we need to deal with the overcrowding crisis and other crises of which the Government speak; instead, house building is at its lowest level since the 1920s.

Let me turn to the loophole. Just when we thought that things could not get any worse, the latest shocking turn in this sad and sorry story was the revelation last month that because the Government could not even draft their own legislation and regulations correctly, many of the households that they had told local authorities should be made to pay the bedroom tax—those who had been in continual receipt of housing benefit for the same residence since 1996—were in fact not covered by the legislation.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The hon. Lady referred to the National Housing Federation report and claimed that it said there was cause and effect with regard to the implementation of this policy and arrears. May I quote something to her and then hear what she has to say about it? The report actually said that it is

“difficult…to attribute any observed rise in outstanding arrears since 31st March 2013 to the introduction”

of the spare room subsidy “alone” and that the situation needs to be monitored. Secondly, it said that the vast majority of housing associations reported no rise in evictions. Would the hon. Lady like to withdraw her previous comments?

[Rachel Reeves]

The facts speak for themselves: two thirds of the households hit by the bedroom tax have fallen into arrears and councils up and down the country are trying hard not to evict people, because they know it is the wrong thing to do. They are trying to help people and we should welcome that and applaud them for doing the right thing, unlike this Government, who are failing to do the right thing.

[Rachel Reeves]

The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that this scheme is retrospective in a way that the scheme for the private sector was not. The people affected by this loophole have been living in their properties since 1996. They thought they had a secure and permanent tenancy, but it turns out that they do not, because they cannot afford to live in the home they have lived in for, in some cases, their whole lives.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. You are both up at the same time. Is the hon. Lady giving way?

[Rachel Reeves]

I have already given way to the Secretary of State.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

On a point of clarification.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 24th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am determined, as I have been since I arrived as Secretary of State, to improve the welfare system so that it supports people back into positive lifestyles, and that is what we are doing. More people have moved from economic inactivity, which is now at its lowest levels, back into work. There are now fewer workless households than there were on our arrival. When we came into government, one in 20—a fifth—of all households were without work; that figure has now reduced for the first time in 30 years.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

On 13 January, the Secretary of State told this House that between 3,000 and 5,000 people were wrongly paying the bedroom tax because of a loophole in the legislation. Since then, councils have been trawling through years of records to find out who has been overpaid. Will the Secretary of State update us on how many people were wrongly paying the bedroom tax?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

On the loophole that I talked about when I made that comment, the estimate we had, which was drawn from local authorities and still stands, in our view, was that some 5,000 people may be affected. That is based on the most up-to-date data that local authorities have given. I know that the hon. Lady and her team have made a freedom of information request, but the key thing is that the information we have is based on all the local authorities’ evidence to us, and I do not believe that her evidence is in any way accurate.

[Rachel Reeves]

Yes, we have put in a freedom of information request, because we did not think that the Secretary of State’s numbers were correct, and, as it turns out, they are not. The FOI request shows that with 194 out of 346 councils having responded so far, a staggering 21,500 people have been wrongly paying the bedroom tax, including 4,198 in Tory local authorities, so perhaps they have got their numbers wrong too. There are 275 in Tory Chester, 200 in Tory Peterborough, 234—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

We already know that 600,000 people are affected by the bedroom tax, two thirds of them are disabled and 60,000 are carers. Will the Secretary of State now tell the House exactly how many long-term residents have been wrongly paying the bedroom tax since April because the Government failed to spot a loophole in the legislation?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have already made it clear that the number is likely to be between 3,000 and 5,000, but we will be clearer about that when the local authorities, which are responsible for collecting the data, come forward with the final facts.

[Rachel Reeves]

The fact is that the Secretary of State has not got a clue. It could be 5,000 or it could be as many as 40,000 people, as reported by the experts. What a total shambles! Will the Secretary of State now guarantee that everybody who has been wrongly paying the bedroom tax will be reimbursed, and instead of closing the loophole, will the Government now do the right thing and scrap the bedroom tax?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yet again, what we have from the hon. Lady is a moan about a policy that helps people in difficult circumstances. I said earlier that not once has she come to the Dispatch Box and said that she was concerned about those her party left behind living in overcrowded accommodation. Not once has she mentioned the 1 million on the waiting list or apologised for the fact that building levels for social housing fell to their lowest point since the ’20s. Of course we will look after those affected by the policy, but she must make it clear that she supports one of these policies; otherwise, there will be a total cost to the Exchequer. The shambles is on the Opposition’s part.

Universal Credit

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will make a statement on universal credit.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

This is a major and challenging reform which will transform the welfare state in Britain for the better, ultimately accounting for some £70 billion of benefit spending each year, with 3 million people better off.

Rightly for a programme of this scale, the Government’s priority has been, and continues to be, its safe and secure delivery. This has been demonstrated throughout our approach to date, which started with the successful launch of the pathfinder in April 2013 and has continued with the controlled expansion of universal credit, starting as planned in October 2013 and running through to spring 2014. What is more, we are already pushing ahead with the cultural and business change required as part of universal credit. We are retraining 25,000 Jobcentre Plus advisers while implementing digital jobcentres and rolling out the new claimant commitment, which is now on track to be in place in half of all jobcentres by the end of the year, and across the country by the spring.

Yesterday I announced and discussed at length with the Work and Pensions Committee our plans for the next stage of implementing universal credit, following my Department’s work over recent months with the Government Digital Service to assess delivery options. That work has explored the use of the latest digital technologies and assessed the utility of the work we have done to date—[Interruption.]

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The conclusions of this work were set out yesterday. First, as part of the wider transformation in developing digital services, the Department will further develop the work started by the GDS to test and implement an enhanced digital service. This will be capable of delivering the full scope of universal credit and make provision for all claimant types.

Meanwhile, we will expand our current service and develop functionality so that from next summer we progressively start to take claims for universal credit from couples and, in the autumn, from families. Once safely tested in the 10 live universal credit areas, we will expand the roll-out to cover the north-west of England. This will enable us to learn from the live running of universal credit at scale and for more claimant types, including the more vulnerable and the more complex, while extending to more people the positive benefits of universal credit.

It is important to note that the information that we are getting back from the pathfinder tells that 90%—I stress, 90%—of people are claiming universal credit online and that 78% are confident about their ability to budget with monthly payments. It also tells us— [Interruption.] I know that Labour Members do not want to hear about this, because they have been wrong on welfare reform from day one. The majority of people who are on the programme tell us that it pays to work, with 65% to 70% reporting that universal credit offers better work incentives than jobseeker’s allowance and is less complex—upheld by the 65% who agreed that it was easier to understand their obligations as a result.

As we progress with the future delivery of this flagship programme, we will continue the same careful approach—test, learn, implement—as it is rolled out through the regions. On this basis—[Interruption.] Actually, I am going to pick this point up. The shadow Chancellor is sitting on the Opposition Front Bench. I will tell you, Mr Speaker, what we will not do: we will not take any lessons from the party that rolled out tax credits early. It rushed the delivery of tax credits, which cost £5 billion immediately and 400,000 people suffered directly as a result.

Once we have closed down the new claims, we will test, learn and implement—unlike Labour when it rolled out its information technology programmes. The new claims to the legacy benefits that universal credit replaced have been closed down, with the vast majority of the remaining legacy case load moving to universal credit during 2016 and into 2017. Final decisions on these elements of the programme will be informed by the development of the enhanced digital solution.

[Rachel Reeves]

On 5 September, the Secretary of State told the House:

“We will deliver this in time and in budget”.—[Official Report, 5 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 472.]

On 14 October, he said:

“Universal credit will roll out very well and it will be on time and within budget.”—[Official Report, 14 October 2013; Vol. 568, c. 429.]

And just last month, on 18 November, he said that

“universal credit will roll out and deliver exactly as we said it would.”—[Official Report, 18 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 947.]

The Secretary of State must answer these questions. How on earth can this be on time when in November 2011 he said that

“all new applications for existing benefits and credits will be entirely phased out by April 2014”,

but we now learn that this milestone will be reached only in 2016? Will the Secretary of State confirm that this is a delay of two years? Will he also confirm that, even by 2017, 700,000 people will not be on universal credit?

How can the Secretary of State say that universal credit will be on budget when, even by his own admission, £40.1 million is being written off on IT costs? What budget heading was that under? The Secretary of State also revealed yesterday that another £90 million will be written off by 2018. Does this mean an additional IT system is having to be built?

The reset exercise began in February. On 18 November, the Secretary of State still claimed that there would be no delay to universal credit. At what point did he learn that there would be a delay of two years?

The underlying problem is surely that the Secretary of State has not resolved key policy decisions before spending hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money on an IT system.

One of the issues that has a fundamental impact on whether people are better off in work is free school meals; so which recipients of universal credit will get free school meals—some, none or all?

The Secretary of State is in denial. Doubtless, he will deny that he is in denial in a moment’s time. But we all know that until he fesses up, no one will have any confidence in his management of this programme. It is no surprise that a source close to the Chancellor says:

“There are some ministers who improve in office and others, like IDS, who show that they are just not up to it”.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Let me deal with a couple of the points raised by the hon. Lady. I said all along, and I repeat, that this programme essentially is going to be on time. By 2017, some 6.5 million people will be on the programme, receiving the benefits.

Let me deal with the hon. Lady’s comments about what is written down and what is written off. For somebody who was supposed to have been working for the Bank at one point, she does not seem to know the difference between equipment of no use that is being written off and equipment—this is the case in any company over a period of time—that is written down each year. That is exactly right. If she drives a motor car, I wonder whether she has noticed that, over a period of years, its value actually depreciates. Perhaps she has not; perhaps she is still trying to sell the car for the same value she bought it for.

The reality is very simple. Let us take the legacy systems right now. The legacy computer systems that are working were written down years ago, but they are still delivering value to the Government by delivering benefits. Maybe the hon. Lady needs a teach-in about the difference between written-off equipment and written-down equipment.

I want to deal with one other point that is quite clear and is the reality. We have been clear—[Interruption.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and his area on having an unemployment rate of 2.6%, which is testimony to the efforts this Government are making. Schools obviously have a legal duty to secure independent careers guidance for their pupils, and employers have to work with them, but it is also a fact that Jobcentre Plus has a careers guidance programme. We are now in talks with the schools to ensure that somehow we can connect would-be school leavers, long before they leave school, with companies and businesses, to tell them exactly what they need to have and what skills they will need to obtain.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

This weekend it was reported that Atos had pulled out of a DWP contract providing specialist disability advice. What was the Department’s response? An internal memo instructing staff deciding whether people are disabled enough to receive disability living allowance to “google it”. Is this not the biggest indication yet of the sheer contempt in which the Department for Work and Pensions holds disabled people?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady is completely wrong. First of all, it was not an internal memo; it was guidance that goes out to the Department in the normal way. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) needs to keep quiet for a while and listen a bit more. This man has travelled so far in his political career that we never know what he is talking about. He has gone from being a Tory to being a Blairite and then a Brownite, and now he is a socialist on his website, so I wonder whether he needs to keep quiet and listen a little more.

The answer to the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) is that Atos Healthcare has not withdrawn from the contract. Normal procedures to update guidance in the process of DLA reform are going through. Under DLA, only 6% had face-to-face assessments; the majority have face-to-face assessments now, under the personal independence payment. Therefore, decision makers have much more objective information than they ever had before, so there is no change to the quality of the service. This is a simple contract adjustment to reflect and meet the corresponding business needs. The hon. Lady should really not listen to jobbing journalists who come to her to tell her they have an issue.

[Rachel Reeves]

I am not sure whether the Secretary of State has even bothered to read the memo from his own Department. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, because of the failure of his Department to deliver the reform, the personal independence payment is going out only to a third of country. After the chaos of the universal credit, the work capability assessment, the PIP, the Work programme and the Youth Contract, DLA is now in chaos as well. Is there any part of the Department for Work and Pensions that is actually working?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The thing that is wonderful about the hon. Lady is that she never listens; she just reads what is on her script that she prepared before, and it does not matter what question was answered. I have already told her—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda should keep quiet; otherwise he will jump out of his underpants if he carries on like that—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 14th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

Labour Members support the principle of universal credit, but we have repeatedly raised concerns about the Secretary of State’s ability to deliver it. Since 2011 he has consistently promised that 1 million people will be claiming universal credit by April 2014. Will he now tell the House how many people he expects actually to be claiming universal credit by then, and whether he will proceed with the previously announced plans to close down new claims for tax credits by that date?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

May I start by welcoming the hon. Lady to her position? As I told the Committee and have said consistently, universal credit will be rolled out within the time scales we set, and we are planning very clearly to enrol as many people in it as possible. This will be a success. As she says she is in favour of universal credit, perhaps she can explain why Labour Members voted against it at the start and continue to do so.

[Rachel Reeves]

Despite what the Secretary of State says, the truth is that by April next year it will be possible to claim universal credit at just 10 jobcentres out of a total of 772. Meanwhile, the National Audit Office says that £34 million has already had to be written off, £303 million is now at risk, and Ministers have failed to set out how the policy will work. It is a catalogue of errors. Will the Secretary of State tell us how much money spent on the project will be money down the drain? Instead of blaming everybody but himself, would it not be better for him to turn down the volume on off-the-record briefings against his own permanent secretary and start taking responsibility for his own failed policy?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Just in case the hon. Lady does not realise it, I should point out that this is not a failed policy: it will roll out successfully on time and within budget. Where does the word “failure” apply to that? She is part of a party whose time in office saw more than £28 billion wasted on IT programmes, with complete chaos most of the time it was there. This will roll out on time and within budget. At any time when we announce the new reset, she can, if she would like, come and talk to us about it. Perhaps for once, instead of voting against stuff and then saying she supports it, she might tell us how many of the benefit cuts Labour Members voted against they are now in favour of.

Pensions Bill [Lords]

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Rachel Reeves

Monday 20th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

The coalition agreement states that the parties agree to

“hold a review to set the date at which the state pension age starts to rise to 66, although it will not be sooner than 2016 for men and 2020 for women.'”

The Secretary of State’s provisions clearly breach the coalition agreement, so what has changed?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

With respect, I have just said that there are certain elements that would not be legal. That is all that I am saying. The hon. Lady can go on about this point as much as she likes, but I have answered her. She might not like my answer, but that is the one I have decided to give. The fact that the women who will be affected will remain on the same level of retirement but will be in retirement for two and a half years longer than men is an important feature. I stand by the need to equalise women’s state pension age in 2018.

[Joan Walley]

rose—

[Rachel Reeves]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I give way to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley).

--- Later in debate ---

[Rachel Reeves]

Is the Secretary of State honestly saying that the policy has been changed because of legal advice? If that is the case, will he publish that legal advice today before the winding-up speeches and before we vote? Will he also confirm that this is a breach of the coalition agreement?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do not publish legal advice, but if the hon. Lady reads the coalition agreement, she will see the reasons. I ask her to study it carefully.

I know that the hon. Lady is sincere in what she is saying, but I say one thing to her. She made it clear on the media earlier that it is the Opposition’s policy to move the rise to 66 to 2022 and for it not to start before 2020. That would cost £10 billion. She will presumably have worked that out. Where does she intend to get that £10 billion? We have heard nothing from the Opposition about debt reduction or the financing of future pensions. She should know that her policy would cost £10 billion, and she should consider that important issue.

[Rachel Reeves]

The Secretary of State rightly acknowledges that we have put forward proposals that would save £20 billion. [Interruption.] Has he looked at whether the increase to 67 could be brought forward, which would take us up to a saving of £30 billion? Can we find a compromise on those proposals, which would not cost women aged 56 and 57 so much money?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We agree, then, that the hon. Lady’s proposals would cost us £10 billion. We are on Second Reading, and if she wants to raise the same point or table amendments in Committee, she can do so by all means. The Bill as it stands is exactly as we set out, with equalisation of the age in 2018 and the rise to 66. I have no plans to make any changes to that.