Abu Qatada

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

On the first issue, we have a number of deportation with assurances agreements that we have signed with other countries, and deportations have been possible under them. Mutual legal assistance agreements also exist with a number of other countries. A very particular point has been raised by the courts in respect of one case, but we will obviously look at the wider implications.

On the right hon. Gentleman’s second point, as he will know, we have always made it clear that we will continue to consider whether there is any prospect of our prosecuting Abu Qatada here in the United Kingdom. The Metropolitan police are investigating the issue of the breach of bail conditions, and the right hon. Gentleman would not expect me to comment on an ongoing police investigation.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary has rightly said that Abu Qatada is a dangerous man who should remain behind bars. How confident is she that the bail conditions can be sustained for a lengthy period, given that the appeals will no doubt continue for many months? If she is not able to sustain them—because they will be challenged by Abu Qatada’s team—does she intend to impose a terrorism prevention and investigation measure on him, involving the maximum restrictions, so that we can ensure that he is not free to walk the streets of this country?

[Mrs May]

Given her experience, the right hon. Lady will know that we do not comment publicly on whether or not we intend to impose TPIMs on individuals. If an application for bail is made, the Home Office will vigorously defend its belief, and my belief, that Abu Qatada should remain behind bars.

Justice and Security Bill [Lords]

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Steve Baker]

As I am sure my right hon. and learned Friend knows, I am often in close contact with the Whips, but not usually on that matter.

The third reason why the ISC needs to be reformed is that it has seemed unwilling to demonstrate that it challenges the information it receives from the intelligence and security agencies. The Joint Committee on Human Rights found the ISC’s 2007 report on rendition to be “opaque” and too readily accepting of the accounts presented by the agency heads, without sufficient justification.

The crucial reform that is necessary is direct election of the Chair by the House of Commons. The Wright Committee—the Committee on Reform of the House of Commons—thought extremely carefully about this issue. Paragraph 74 of its report states:

“The credibility of select committees could be enhanced by a greater and more visible element of democracy in the election of members and Chairs.”

It also states:

“Their election by a small group of Members, acting under party constraints, is evidently not conducive to producing a truly independent figure with the required weight inside and outside the House which House-wide election might confer.”

That is precisely my point.

Those of us who were elected in 2010 have experienced first hand only the operation of Select Committees under Chairs directly elected by the House, so I personally struggle to draw a comparison. However, in responding to the Liaison Committee’s second report of Session 2012-13 on Select Committee effectiveness, resources and powers, the Government acknowledged:

“Chairs of select committees are now elected by the whole House, giving them increased authority and independence.”

Who am I to disagree with the Government on this point?

That is precisely the reason for these amendments. It may suit the Government to be scrutinised by carefully selected nominees who elect a Chair from among themselves, as the Bill proposes, but the risks to the credibility of the Committee are obvious.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is seeking to make the perfectly logical and rational argument that the Chair and membership of the ISC are analogous with the Chair and membership of other Committees. Does he not accept, however, that as the ISC deals with intelligence matters and our secret intelligence services, other factors must be taken into account, because the trust relationship—not collusion or a cosy relationship, but a trust relationship—between the agencies and the members of the Committee is crucial to effective scrutiny? If the agencies do not have that confidence and trust, they will be less forthcoming.

[Steve Baker]

The right hon. Lady’s question pre-empts some of my other remarks, but let me just draw her attention to what amendment 9 states:

“The Chair is to be a member of the House of Commons elected in the same way as the Chairs”

of other Committees, and:

“A person is not eligible to be elected as Chair of the ISC unless that person—

(a) has received the formal consent in writing of the Prime Minister to that person’s candidature, and

(b) is not a Minister of the Crown.”

So the Prime Minister, and the security establishment, would have the opportunity through that procedure to approve or reject a person who wished to stand for election as Chair of the Committee. That is not a perfect situation, but it is one that recognises the point the right hon. Lady makes.

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[Diana Johnson]

That information is very helpful.

I have explained why the Opposition will not support amendment 8. Government amendment 58 relates to the money, staff, accommodation and other resources that will be made available to Parliament for the new Committee. I wonder whether the Minister can help me, because I am slightly confused about the intention of the Government with respect to the support that will be provided to the ISC. In his response, will he set out how he expects the secretariat to the ISC to be provided? In Committee, we discussed a proposal suggested by the membership of the ISC for a non-departmental public body to be established to provide secretarial support. That does not appear to be what the Government are doing. Will he therefore explain what will happen?

[Hazel Blears]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is consensus across the House that the Bill will strengthen the scrutiny of our secret intelligence services and that that is welcomed by everyone? In Committee, the Opposition were forceful in saying that if we are to have increased scrutiny, we need the necessary resources to do the job. The Opposition talked about a figure of £2 million. The Government’s impact assessment has a figure of £1.3 million. There is no agreement on resourcing, and without resourcing, it will be impossible to do the job that the Government want us to do.

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[Minister without Portfolio (Mr Kenneth Clarke)]

Before dealing with Government amendment 58, which provides the Government with the necessary powers to make a financial contribution to the Committee, I will add a few words to the interesting and lively debate that we have had on the election of the Chair. I will not repeat every argument. My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) put the case robustly and had some pretty strong support. However, every member of the ISC who is here has responded and he has had to take on some of the more formidable Members on both sides of the House. He is also facing the opposition of all three of the major parties.

I assure him that this is not an establishment stitch-up—quite the reverse. Perhaps the best way of illustrating that is by putting everything in the context of what we are trying to do in this part of the Bill. We are making a remarkable advance in strengthening the powers of this Committee to hold our security and intelligence services to account. For 20 years the Committee has steadily contributed on that front, and we are marching forward considerably in the Bill. This part of it is just as important as the part we debated on Monday, as we are stepping towards making our security services more accountable to Parliament. We are enabling judges, in exceptional cases, to take all the evidence into account and make an adjudication when allegations are made by individuals; and we are committing to holding judicial inquiries when worrying circumstances occur—subject, of course, to those inquiries being able to get under way once police investigations have been properly completed.

These amendments are important, and they are being proposed in the context of a situation where all parties agree that they want this Committee to be a parliamentary Committee and no longer a creature of the Government. We therefore wish to give it more resources and the structure that enables it to do an even better job. The only thing that distinguishes the Committee from a Joint Committee or Select Committee of this House is this problem of the extremely sensitive nature of some of the information that it sees. Only where it is unavoidable are we departing from the normal process of allowing the House of Commons to have a powerful Committee of its own choosing and to exhort it to do its job and report back properly on what is and is not happening in this area.

[Hazel Blears]

I think we are all agreed that strengthening the scrutiny of the Secret Intelligence Service is an important and welcome step forward. However, I am sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would agree that simply saying that we want to increase scrutiny is not enough. Instead of having the right to request information we are moving to a situation where we would be able to require it. We need additional investigators and that will require a substantial increase in the resources available to the Committee. Simply saying that we want increased scrutiny is not enough. I know he understands that, so will he tell us now that we will be getting an increase in resources to enable us to do the job he wants us to do?

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[James Brokenshire]

My hon. Friend, in his customary way, has highlighted the genuine challenges that both the Government and ISC members have had in seeking to frame legislation, which can be a challenging mechanism within which to express matters effectively. He rightly points out the evidence given by the families of the victims of 7/7 and those who were sadly caught up in that terrible event. There have also been discussions of the evidence taken from communication service providers during the ISC’s recent inquiry into communications data, including whether the information provided was sensitive. It is a challenge at times to analyse evidence from third parties to decide whether evidence is sensitive and thus not suitable for disclosure. Sometimes that is clear, but sometimes it is not.

[Hazel Blears]

I am following the Minister’s argument closely, and I acknowledge that it is difficult to get the right legislative framework for this area. I wish to reinforce the point made by the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) that part of the change we are seeking to achieve is to make the Committee more independent. The consequence of the provision that all information in private will be covered means that the decisions can be made by the Government rather than the Committee. We must have a clear delineation of information that belongs to the Committee, which can then decide what to do with that information. No matter how hard this is, I hope that the Minister will be creative and ingenious enough to provide clarity. Such information is not the Government’s information: it is for the Committee to decide.

[James Brokenshire]

I hear the point that the right hon. Lady makes. The intent of the changes in the Bill is to underline the greater scrutiny and the import of the ISC as a Committee of Parliament in fulfilling its work, and therefore ensuring that it has an appropriate mechanism for the publication of information relating to its deliberations. As we have already discussed, sometimes there are challenges on evidence given, perhaps in private, and we had some useful debates in Committee on public hearings. We hope that we will be able to work with the newly formed ISC to have public evidence hearings for some evidence that has previously always been held in private. I acknowledge that most evidence would probably still continue to be heard in private because of the very nature of the materials provided, but we want to look at ways to make hearings more public to show the important scrutiny that is provided by the ISC, and thus to enhance visibility, transparency and confidence in the scrutiny role.

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[Hazel Blears]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his explicit recognition of the fact that the Committee has had access to operational information for some considerable time, despite the fact that no such provision is in the current legislation. The Committee remains concerned about the use of the word “voluntarily”, and I had hoped that the Government would withdraw it from the Bill. It goes against the whole spirit of the direction in which we are moving, from the right to request information to the right to require it. That is a small change on the face of it, but it is actually a big, transformational step. I do not think that the word “voluntarily” is necessary in the Bill; it is superfluous and its retention goes against the direction of travel, in that the agencies will voluntarily be able to decide whether to provide information. That is not the relationship that we currently have with the agencies, let alone the one that we want for the future. I ask the Minister to think again. Why does he want the word “voluntarily” in there when we acknowledge that for the issues in question, this is a matter of requesting information just as we do now?

[James Brokenshire]

As the right hon. Lady says, the Committee already receives information on ongoing operational matters, and that would fall short of the requirements in the first two limbs that I have described. She will have seen the Government’s amendment that seeks to reflect the existing work that takes place and the information that is provided. As always with legislation, this is a question of the wording and the way in which matters are interpreted by lawyers, as well as by Members of Parliament. The provision is in no way intended to cut across the Committee’s existing work or the existing flow of information when a request for further clarification has been made. It is intended to provide a distinction between the first two limbs, which will contain an element of further requirement, and the third limb, in which information will be provided because it has been requested rather than required, and in which further investigations will be limited to using the information that has been so provided.

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[Paul Murphy]

rose—

[Hazel Blears]

rose—

[James Brokenshire]

I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Lady, but then, because of time considerations, I should let other right hon. and hon. Members contribute.

[James Brokenshire]

I take note of that point, but let me take the right hon. Lady’s intervention before I respond. She is likely to make a similar point, so I might as well take the two together.

[Hazel Blears]

The Minister is likely to face a unanimous view on this issue—certainly from members of the Committee. The use of the word “voluntarily” creates entirely the wrong impression of the direction of the Bill. It is superfluous; the Government do not need “voluntarily”. In the past, the ISC has sometimes received partial information from the security services that has affected the Committee’s decision-making. Voluntarily means “you can if you like; and if you don’t want to, you don’t have to”. Use of that word in the Bill is superfluous to requirements and sends out entirely the wrong message.

[James Brokenshire]

In their contributions this afternoon, members of the ISC have clearly underlined the robust scrutiny that is provided. These provisions relate only to operational matters—the new element added to the overall purview of the ISC that will result from the Bill. I have already highlighted the importance of clause 2(3)(a) and (b) for the two limbs, which covers the ability to require the provision of further information. If other more general inquiries take place, the provisions for the third limb are intended to denote the fact that the request to the agencies would not fall under the first two elements of the three limbs. It is a separate category.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Browne]

I give my sincere commiserations to Lorraine Fraser. It must have been an extremely harrowing ordeal for her. It reminds me of a case in my constituency shortly after I was elected in 2005, when a young man called Lloyd Fouracre was murdered. His brother, Adam, was extremely energetic in promoting safety among young people in schools and elsewhere. I commend the work of the hon. Gentleman’s constituent and of mine. Our work on ending gang and youth violence includes elements of programmes in schools, and I commend that type of work right across the country.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

A few weeks ago in my constituency, there was an horrific incident when a totally innocent shopkeeper was attacked by an individual wielding a nine-inch kitchen knife. It subsequently transpired that that person had mental health problems. My chief constable tells me that violence is increasingly perpetrated by people with mental health problems. What is the Minister doing with his colleagues in the Department of Health to tackle this increasing danger to people in our communities?

[Mr Browne]

I am very sorry to hear about that appalling case. I again pass my commiserations to everybody involved. We try across Government—with the Department of Health in this case—to ensure that policy is effective in combining all the elements needed to reduce criminality. Although it is no consolation to the family in this case, it might help the House to know that, according to the crime survey for England and Wales, in the year to June 2012 there was a 14% reduction in homicides, a 9% reduction in violent incidents involving knives or sharp instruments, and an 18% reduction in gun crime. It might not be much consolation to victims of crime, but, overall, violent crime in this country is falling.

Ibrahim Magag

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend makes his point in his normal forthright manner. I can tell him that the Government view national security as an absolute priority and take every possible step to keep the public safe, through deportations when they are possible, through the application of TPIMs, or through other measures.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

On many occasions the Home Secretary has been at pains to reassure the House that the extra measures are sufficient to mitigate any increased risk caused by the absence of a relocation power and the move from control orders to TPIMs. Why were those additional resources not effective in this case?

[Mrs May]

It is true that when we introduced TPIMs we made extra resources available to the Security Service and the police. However, as I said in my original response in relation to whatever powers actually exist, the best place for a terrorist or a terrorist suspect is behind bars, because without that there is a risk of absconding.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point. As I said, violence against women and girls is an abhorrent crime and we are committed to ending it. We have taken a number of steps: we have ring-fenced up to £40 million across the spending review period as stable funding for specialist local services, support services and national helplines; we have published a cross-Government strategy that includes an action plan; we have announced our plans to criminalise forced marriage in England and Wales; we have introduced two new stalking offences; we have piloted new ways of protecting the victims of domestic violence; and crucially—in relation to the cultural issues he raised—we have launched prevention campaigns to tackle rape and relationship abuse among teenagers, including through some very effective advertising. Internationally, the Under-Secretary of State for International Development, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), is taking forward an international campaign against violence against women.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary might recall that when he gave evidence to the TPIMs Committee of the House, Stuart Osborne, the deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan police, said that the relocation power

“has been very useful for us…Without that relocation”

power

“and depending on where people choose to live,”

it

“could be significantly more difficult”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Powers Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; c. 5, Q10.]

for us to monitor and enforce the orders. Does she now regret the deal she did with the Liberal Democrats to abolish the power of relocation, which has led to a diminution of security for people in this country?

[Mrs May]

I say to the right hon. Lady that, during the transition from control orders to TPIMs, both the police and the Security Service made it clear that there should be no substantial increase in risk and that appropriate arrangements would be in place to manage an effective transition and to manage individuals under TPIMs. Of course we take extremely seriously the abscond that has taken place, and the police and others are working to apprehend the individual who has absconded, but TPIMs were put in place as a series of legislative measures, together with the package of extra funding that went to both the police and the Security Service. As I said, both the police and the Security Service were clear that there should be no substantial increase in risk.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Monday 19th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

As my hon. Friend points out, he is raising a concern that is felt by many members of the public. Obviously, we have recently had the judgment in relation to Abu Qatada, which I think may have triggered my hon. Friend’s thinking on this issue. We are seeking leave to appeal that judgment, but we will also continue to work with the Jordanian Government to see what can be done. We will pursue all avenues to ensure that we can deport Abu Qatada. This Government have taken a stronger line on whether we allow those who can be described as hate preachers into this country and have ensured that fewer of them cross our shores.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary will be aware that there are concerns about the provisions in the Justice and Security Bill, which is being debated in the other place today, that introduce closed material proceedings. The provisions will enable judges to see all the evidence in cases that affect national security, while protecting vital intelligence. Will she work with the Minister without Portfolio, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) to reassure Members of the Lords and of this House that those proceedings, while essential, will be used only when absolutely necessary?

[Mrs May]

I am happy to give the right hon. Lady an assurance to that effect. This is an important Bill, because in a very small but growing number of cases, it is not possible for the Government to defend themselves because the information cannot be made available in open court. As a result, settlements have to be made and there is no justice, because there is no trial or judgment on the rights and wrongs of the case. Hence, there is a desire to introduce closed material proceedings in a very limited number of cases, where it is necessary and proportionate. I am obviously working with my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister without Portfolio to that end.

Abu Qatada

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Monday 12th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

Yes. I thank my hon. and learned Friend. He is right. The judge made his judgment, and we disagreed with it. Of course, we are disappointed; we think it is wrong, and that is why we will appeal. We believe that there is a point of law on which it can be appealed, and will look to expedite it.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

A very dangerous man is likely to be walking the streets of this country by tomorrow morning, and the public will simply not understand what has gone wrong. Indeed, I myself find it hard to believe that, despite having got the constitution of Jordan changed and the law changed, we are still unable to convince our own courts that those changes to the constitution and the law and the other assurances are sufficient to guarantee a fair trial. What more can be done to ensure that this man can be deported as a matter of urgency? Our legal system will find itself in a ludicrous position if this situation is allowed to go on for a moment longer.

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Lady is right. We are all deeply frustrated by the decision, given the strong assurances that we have received that Abu Qatada would receive a fair trial across a wide range of aspects. We believe that a point of law has been misinterpreted, and that it is therefore possible for us to appeal. We are asking leave to appeal; that is the first thing we can do. We are also talking to the Jordanian Government about what other avenues might be open to us. Ultimately, however, the problem is that the bar has now been set extremely high by the European Court, and it was that decision, which moved the goalposts, that made it harder for decisions to be made in the British courts.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

As my hon. Friend will know, that case is due to go to court later this year. The extradition decision has already been taken and, as he will know, I have decided to uphold it.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

If, as the Home Secretary maintains, increased surveillance is as effective as the power to relocate terrorists, why was CF, a suspected serious terrorist, allowed to travel freely across the Olympic park five times before being arrested?

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Lady should have listened carefully to the answer I gave earlier. The individual has not been allowed to travel across the Olympic park. I am not able to go into further details about the case, as it is before the courts and we do not wish to undermine the prosecution case, but I am confident in the TPIMs we have introduced and in the work of our police and security services.

Abu Qatada

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

As I made clear in my earlier responses, we are looking at every option available to us under the current legal regime in order to deal with this issue. We wish to be able to deport Abu Qatada; we do not believe he should be in the United Kingdom, but we are looking at all options under the existing legal regime.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary said quite rightly that she wishes to be in a position to deport Abu Qatada, but I am afraid that, much as we all might wish that, if it does not happen in three months’ time, the Home Secretary will face a serious choice. The bail conditions might well be relaxed, so the only choice she will have under current legislation would be to impose a TPIM. Time and again, we have seen that TPIMs do not have the measures necessary to give the British people the degree of security that they need. In this year, with the Olympics and the diamond jubilee and with half a dozen people on control orders coming back to London and being relocated, there is layer upon layer of risk. What steps is the right hon. Lady going to take to make sure that we can be assured of our safety and security?

[Mrs May]

I can assure the right hon. Lady that this Government place the security of this country and its people as their priority. That is why we have put in place a series of measures that we believe will satisfy that requirement. Right now, the Government’s intention is to work to try to achieve what the right hon. Lady has recognised that all of us want across the House when it comes to dealing with Abu Qatada.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that contribution—he makes an extremely important and valid point. We are working with industry and others to see whether we can find other ways in which technology can help us to reduce metal theft by identifying metal and making it harder for the criminals.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

Today’s report from the Select Committee on Home Affairs on the roots of violent radicalisation highlights the twin threats from Islamist fundamentalism and the far right. Much of the most successful work has been done by the Hope Not Hate campaign, which empowers communities —the moderate majority—to isolate those extremists. Such community action is vital. Does the Home Secretary therefore share my concern at the delay in the publication of the integration strategy, for which we have been waiting for 11 months?

[James Brokenshire]

The right hon. Lady rightly highlights that communities play an essential role. The Government have recognised that extreme right-wing threats as well as Islamist-related threats need to be balanced equally within the Prevent strategy, which was why we took the decision on the change of emphasis. She mentions work on broader integration. Colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government will produce their strategy in that regard shortly.