Intelligence and Security Committee

Hazel Blears Excerpts

Monday 21st November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind]

I can give my hon. Friend a very straightforward answer: all members of the Committee are subject to the Official Secrets Act. We see the most secret information and we have therefore all been considered suitable for that purpose. Like any other United Kingdom citizen, we cannot reveal information that is in breach of the Official Secrets Act, which is an Act of this place and must be respected. In the unlikely event of the circumstances to which my hon. Friend refers, that would be the response.

The third major reform relates to the fact that the 1994 Act states that the Committee may “request” information from the intelligence agencies. If the Committee has the power to request, the agencies have the power to decline. I have to be fair and say that the agencies have never used that power, but they are able to decline and that is no longer acceptable. Our view, which we have recommended to the Government, is that the Committee should have the power to require information to be shared by the intelligence agencies, and only the Government, not the agencies, should have the power to override that if, for example, a Secretary of State or Prime Minister believe there is some overwhelming national interest in doing so. That would have to be reported to Parliament.

The power to require information is not just a change of words. At the moment, if the Committee wants information we request it and the agencies, which sometimes have massive files, produce a summary of the information. I am sure that they do it in good faith, but we are allowed to see only that summarised version. The power to require information will mean that we will have our own staff who can have informal discussions in a constructive and positive way with the agencies and see all the available information. Ultimately, they will decide what summary we might wish to see, which will enable us to put questions to the agencies if we decide to take evidence from them. That is a much more sensible procedure, which I am sure will work. However, it is obviously a very important change compared with previous practice.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has talked about balance in relation to the Green Paper. If there are to be more closed proceedings, is it not absolutely essential that there should be more rigorous parliamentary oversight? The Committee should therefore have more resources, not to aggrandise itself but to do properly the job that the Government are asking us to do

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind]

Yes. The right hon. Lady is a very senior member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. In the Green Paper, the Government have combined enhanced oversight with proposals for reform of the control principle precisely for the reason she mentions. In addition, even if there had not been a Green Paper and there were no Government proposals, I am sure the Committee would have taken the view that the time had come for a fundamental root-and-branch reform of oversight, and would have been making the recommendations we are discussing today to the Government. I do not know—and we will never know—what the Government’s reaction might have been. That would have been a different situation.

The final major change we are recommending relates, again, to the 1994 Act. The Act states that we have oversight of the Secret Intelligence Service, which is MI6; the Security Service, which is MI5; and GCHQ. That is all that is mentioned but, as the House will be well aware, the intelligence community is considerably wider than that. I mentioned defence intelligence a few minutes ago, and there is the Joint Intelligence Committee and the new National Security Council, which has a role partly concerned with intelligence. The reality is that, over the years, these additional agencies and parts of government have voluntarily subjected themselves to scrutiny by the ISC. That is right and proper, but it is time that the legislation caught up with the formal position. That has also been accepted by the Government.

In conclusion, the House might think, “Well, that’s all very well. We know what the Government’s view is and we know what the Intelligence and Security Committee’s view is, but what about the agencies themselves? How comfortable are they with these proposals?” I cannot speak on their behalf, but I can say that our relationship with the agencies is very positive and that they have sometimes publicly said that it is time for reform.

The agencies have taken an entirely constructive approach to the kind of issues we have been discussing today. Of course, there is a very good reason for that. Not only are the agencies great national servants operating in the national interest, but one of the big developments in intelligence oversight over the past 16 years has been that a Committee such as ours, whose primary role may seem to be to criticise agencies or the Government if something goes wrong, has also occasionally been the agencies’ champion if we conclude they are being unfairly attacked either in the media or elsewhere and are unable to defend themselves.

The obvious example of that is the 7/7 bombings, when serious representations were made that because the names of the people responsible for the bombings were on the Security Service’s files, what happened could surely have been stopped and it was all a disastrous mistake. I was not involved in that investigation, but our predecessors looked into the matter in enormous detail. It is significant that the conclusion they came to was in all material respects the same as that the coroner came to a few months ago: although various criticisms could be made, the Security Service was being unfairly accused on the central question of failing to stop that terrible event in the circumstances. The agencies have trust in the Committee partly because it has operated in a mature and sensible way. Although on many occasions the Committee may have criticised things the agencies have done, we are also prepared to speak on their behalf in public and private if we think the facts justify it.

Intelligence has been a hugely important issue for the United Kingdom for many years. The single most important intelligence achievement was Bletchley Park during the second world war, which had a material impact on our winning the war. More recently, how intelligence operates has changed fundamentally. However, the crucial aspects of intelligence remain the same: our national interest requires that intelligence agencies remain secret in their most crucial activities. That is how I started and that is how I conclude my comments. On behalf of the Committee as a whole, I commend our report to the House.

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) for introducing his Committee’s report with his usual eloquence. I thank him and all the ISC’s members, a good number of whom are in the Chamber today, for the work they do throughout the year in overseeing our security and intelligence agencies. They play a very important role. Obviously, I will come on to the proposals to enhance the Committee’s role but, first, I would like to say that it plays an important and largely unseen role in overseeing the agencies. We are grateful to it for that. The quality of the Committee’s annual report underlines the unique and valuable role that it plays in the parliamentary oversight of the security and intelligence agencies.

We continue to face a number of serious threats to our national security. As the Committee’s report rightly sets out, those threats come from a range of sources. Foremost among them are international terrorism, particularly from al-Qaeda and its affiliates. We also face an ongoing threat from residual terrorist groups linked to Northern Ireland, from serious organised crime, and from traditional espionage against British interests. Added to those long-standing threats, we must now address the growing threat to our cyber-security from cybercrime and cyber-espionage.

On international terrorism, it is worth stressing that, despite the death of Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda remains a threat. It is true that the organisation is now weaker than it has been at any point since 9/11. US military and intelligence operations, work by the Pakistani military and, of course, the enormous contribution that UK forces have made to the international effort in Afghanistan have all been key factors. I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in praising the contribution of our armed forces, who are fighting so bravely many thousands of miles away in order to secure our streets back home from terrorism. However, threats from al-Qaeda, and from other groups that subscribe to its global jihad ideology, remain. We continue to arrest very significant numbers of people for terrorist offences—over 650 in the past two years alone.

[Hazel Blears]

The right hon. Lady is detailing the nature of the threat that we still face in this country. On that basis, she will recognise that the Olympic games is an area where there is clearly a heightened threat. Will she, even at this late stage, consider delaying the implementation of terrorism prevention and investigation measures, so that people who have been relocated out of London, who are some of the most dangerous people in this country, do not have the possibility of returning to London before the Olympic games?

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Lady is right to say that the security of the Olympic games is obviously a key concern and a key issue that we will be addressing over the coming months; indeed, it has been addressed by significant work that has been taking place over the past few years, since the bid was won. We all want to ensure that we provide a safe and secure Olympic games where people are able to endure—I am sorry, I mean enjoy; “endure” is probably more like the athletes enduring some pain during the games—the sporting achievements. We have been clear about our reasons for introducing TPIMs. We have been clear, as well, that the introduction of TPIMs, as the right hon. Lady knows, is accompanied by increased funding for the Security Service, and for the police in their counter-terrorism capacity, in order to provide for extra surveillance alongside TPIMs, which ensures that we are able to be reassured about the level of security that we can provide in relation to individuals who will be under those measures.

The leadership of al-Qaeda continues to plan operations in the UK. It attracts people for training, it has sections dedicated to overseas operations, and it radicalises and recruits. Even as its command and control infrastructure has weakened, al-Qaeda now seeks to inspire lone acts of terrorism organised and conducted without its guidance or instruction. We must now also pay more attention to the groups in Yemen and the horn of Africa, in particular, which are affiliated to al-Qaeda or support its ideology. These groups have independent capability. They can radicalise people in this country. Britons, Americans and Europeans are travelling to fight in Somalia with al-Shabaab and to train in Yemen with al-Qaeda.

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[Hazel Blears]

The hon. Gentleman is extremely knowledgeable in this field because of his experience before entering Parliament, but does he share my concerns about the work of the Home Office’s research, information and communications unit, which the Committee has decided to consider much more closely? It is essential work but at the moment we have little information about what it is doing and its effectiveness.

[Dr Lewis]

I am delighted that the right hon. Lady makes that point. It is too early to have concerns about the work of the unit because we have not been able to examine it yet. The work that such a unit is designed to do is, as she said, of the utmost importance, and if it carries it out successfully the public at large might not know how successful it has been in supporting themes and counter-narrative ideologies in the media and internet to the benefit of people in our society who might otherwise become disaffected. However, unless one can examine the organisation’s work—within what is commonly called the ring of secrecy—one cannot be sure whether sufficient work is being done or about its quality.

On page 44, paragraph 156 of our report, the Committee stated:

“The difficulty of measuring the success of PREVENT work is most notable in the work of the Research, Information and Communications Unit…which was established in 2007 with the primary aim of ensuring consistency, across government, on Counter-Terrorism and counter-extremism messages and developing a coherent narrative to challenge extremist ideology. RICU is jointly funded by the Home Office and the Foreign Office. It currently has 22 full-time staff and its budget in 2010/11 was £4.25m (of which £0.3m was spent on research and £2.7m was spent on communication campaigns).”

That does not sound like an effort on the scale needed if we are seriously to counter the radicalising message of the enemies of our way of life.

Democratic societies are inherently resistant to Governments propagandising against organisations involving their own citizens, in an attempt to get a message across to their own people; but sometimes we have to understand that there are forms of warfare besides open warfare—for example, the propaganda and counter-propaganda warfare that went on during the long confrontation with Soviet communism. During that period, in 1948, a Labour Government set up the Foreign Office’s information research department, which remained in existence until 1977 under Governments of both complexions, until unfortunately another Labour Government decided to do away with it. That organisation operated on a considerable scale, and its particular strength was that it made available to opinion-formers the detailed facts that enabled strong cases for what was good about British society to be made on a non-partisan, non-party political basis. I believe—I think that the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) shares my belief—that an effort on a similar scale might be necessary in the future.

On the Committee’s operations, I can reassure the Home Secretary: she said that we need to consider the resource implications of the Committee expanding its work to consider operational matters; but I am not sure that there are many resource implications, because as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington said, we are asking not to change what we do but simply to formalise what we already do. We are not asking to look over the shoulder of the intelligence and security services at what they are doing while they are doing it—in an operational sense—although they sometimes choose to give us glimpses of that, which obviously we treat with appropriate discretion. Instead, we wish to be assured that when something becomes contentious, the ISC can review the matter and decide whether proper procedures were followed, whether mistakes were made or whether we can help the security and intelligence services by giving them a clean bill of health.

I shall take an example at random. It is known that over the years the approach of Governments towards Libya changed completely. Under the Labour Government, there was a policy—I am sure that its proponents would argue that it was a legitimate line to pursue—of trying to bring Libya back into the fold. For example, when Libya declared its intention to abandon its chemical weapons stocks—we now know that it still had some, although we do not know whether that was because it had not finished getting rid of them or because it was concealing them and cheating on its promises—it was regarded as quite a coup, quite a triumph for the security and intelligence services

It now appears, however, that along the way the degree of co-operation between some of our agencies and some Libyan agencies might have crossed the line. If it did, for example in the rendition of two people, as has been reported, we will need a means of finding out why that line was crossed, which agencies crossed it, who, if anybody, was responsible—was it the Government, was it the agencies?—and whether there are lessons to be learned that we can help to articulate. If the Committee is not given the power to review such operations, many people will rightly ask, “What’s the use of having a Committee of parliamentarians, whose job is supposedly to supervise the security and intelligence services, if when something highly controversial appears to have happened, it cannot, does not or will not look into it?”

I want to refer to one or two of the slightly more traditional threats. It was interesting to hear that the agencies still think that we should not, in our rightful concern about international terrorism, forget that the country remains an intelligence target for countries such as Russia and China. One of the things that worry me the more I focus on it is the possibility that some countries could steal our technology, use it to undercut our competitiveness and then buy their way into our infrastructure in this country. This would be of great strategic value to them in future. I will say no more about that for the moment, but I hope that others might feel it appropriate to do so later in the debate.

Finally, I warmly welcome the proposal in the justice Green Paper to prevent the control order principle being breached. Irrespective of what piece of intelligence was disclosed in court, we must never forget that if we undermine the trust between ourselves and our principal intelligence allies on that issue, we undermine it on every issue. However, it also behoves us to remind our intelligence partners that when they engage in methods and techniques such as Guantanamo Bay and water-boarding, they open up not only themselves but their allies to challenges in court that make such problems much more salient, in respect of the evidence that a judge might feel had to be disclosed. It is a question of exercising two-way restraint: we do not wish to breach the confidence of our allies, but our allies must not breach the standards to which our intelligence services rightly apply themselves.

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[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), who has immense experience in intelligence and security matters.

I have only been a Committee member since the beginning of this Parliament, and this is the first annual report with which I have been involved. I want to put on the record my thanks to former members, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), who have pursued challenging issues with great diligence, tenacity and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley has said, often while subject to criticism simply because the Committee was unable to share with the world at large the information on which it had based its judgments. In some ways, being on the Committee is a great honour, but in others it is a thankless task. Nevertheless, every member, irrespective of their political party, has done their job with tremendous pride and great results.

I also praise the leadership of our Chair, the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind). Since becoming a Committee member, I have noticed not only his ability to get the best out of everybody, which is the most important characteristic of any Committee Chair, but his personal focus, energy and determination to make progress. We would not have the proposals in the Green Paper on strengthening parliamentary oversight, or at least they would not be so good, had it not been for his personal commitment, so he can rest assured and sleep easy in his bed tonight—I am not after his job and I am more than content for him to carry on.

The Committee operates in a spirit of constructive consensus. There is a general sense of personal commitment from all its members—for example, we meet every week, which many members of the public do not realise. I have benefited from the experience of members who have served previously. We have members with extremely diverse experience—I have thoroughly enjoyed the contribution by the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who, as I said in an intervention, had tremendous experience in these matters even before he came to the House. Such experience informs the Committee’s work. Furthermore, we have the undoubted wisdom of our two distinguished Members of the House of Lords, who, in their own ways, make a fantastic contribution.

I want to place on the record—this sounds a bit like an obituary—the work of our fantastic secretariat, which no one has mentioned yet. Its staff are few in number, which is a point I shall come to later, but their breadth of knowledge, their institutional memory and their tenacity in following the threads of an inquiry are extremely impressive and have proved invaluable to the Committee in pursuing our inquiries this year.

We are charged by statute with looking at the administration, expenditure and policy of the services, and much of our work is devoted to that, because we have to ensure that the services are operating properly, acting within the legal framework and seeking value for money. Several hon. Members tonight have talked about the tight budget settlement. It is a fair settlement, given the general economic situation, but nevertheless we must keep an eye on such pressures on the services.

I have been very impressed by the agencies’ openness and frankness with the Committee—as my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen has said, that is about trust. While we have that trust relationship, they are amazingly open with the Committee, not only on policy and administration matters, but, as has been mentioned, on operational matters. That is an important part of what the Committee does, because we cannot properly consider policy in isolation from the operations governed by that policy. If, therefore, the Committee is to do the job that it is charged with doing, it needs to look at those operations, albeit retrospectively, as hon. Members have said.

Recently, the agencies have given access to our investigator in a way that has been really positive. Owing to time restraints, the Committee inevitably cannot delve into certain issues in order to get to the detail, and our investigator has done some excellent reports on vetting and on the use of consultants and contractors. That is one reason why the proposal to give the Committee more investigative resources is so important. If we are to pursue a wider range of inquiries, we need the ability to do that to a high level of competence.

We have also visited the agencies, using the opportunity to talk not only with the heads of the services and senior officials, but with those operating at the front line on some of the most challenging issues, be they counter-terrorism here in Britain, support for military operations overseas or the development of technology to combat the cyber-threat. Like other members of the Committee, I have been hugely encouraged by the professionalism and commitment of those people in working to keep our country safe, often at great personal risk. Many are young people, and they are enthusiastic and amazingly intelligent. However, I am also heartened by the fact that they have such a well developed awareness that they have to operate within a legal and human rights framework that supports our democratic values both here and abroad. Some people think that there might be an almost cavalier attitude towards human rights in the agencies. However, from my discussions with the people involved in operational matters—the people charged with doing this work—I can tell the House that it is hugely refreshing to see that they are almost self-policing when it comes to the legal framework within which they operate. That should give us all some security and assurance.

I pay tribute to those in the services who have made the ultimate sacrifice. There are people in our services, whether on military operations abroad or in hostile circumstances, who have died while on duty serving the country. They cannot be acknowledged publicly—the services do their best, in what they can do, to acknowledge them privately—but it is important that we should pay tribute to those who have given their lives in the service of our country. We owe them a great debt.

In the world of secret intelligence, when people are operating in the most dangerous and hostile areas of the world, difficult decisions will always need to be taken, which is why the work of the ISC in scrutinising how the agencies operate is vital if we are to retain public trust in the agencies’ work. The most controversial issues arise when difficult decisions have to be made. It is essential that, while protecting our secrets, our agents and our techniques, we can assure the public that our intelligence agencies operate within the rule of law. The ISC has an important responsibility not only to provide scrutiny, but to perform the essential role of reassuring the public.

That is why we have begun to discuss having an occasional public evidence session. Clearly that cannot apply to the majority of our business, which has to be in secret because we must have that confidential relationship, but there is more to be done. In an age when information is everywhere and when the public are more sceptical about the work of authority in general, there is more to be done to reassure the public that the services are operating within the framework of the rule of law and within a robust human rights framework, too. That is why it is important that effective, independent and properly resourced oversight is available to us.

We have had lots of speeches this evening and, between us, members of the Committee have managed to cover most of the ground, as ever. However, I want to raise a couple of things in the annual report with the Minister and ask him some questions that he might be able to answer in his winding-up speech. He will know that I have long been concerned about the security threat at the Olympics. That is not a partisan issue, because we are all worried about it. We need to ensure that we do everything that we can to protect the public at a time of heightened risk. We have been told that we need 100 extra agents and that it takes a year to recruit and train them. I would welcome an assurance that by the time we get to the Olympic games we will have in place the resources that were promised and that we need to provide that reassurance.

I have to say to the Minister that the Government response to the issues that we raised about the Olympics in our annual report is a little obtuse. It says that the service will be able to

“build further capacity and strengthen the resilience of its processes,”

and that its response is

“designed to be scalable…to maximise agility in meeting surge requirements, while continuing to respond to business-as-usual demands”.

That sounds to me like something out of a corporate annual business report, so I would welcome a little more clarity—perhaps in plain English—about what the pressures are, what resources are in place and why the Government are reassured that the Security Service is able to manage at what will undoubtedly be a time of increased threat.

I have raised TPIMs many times with the Minister, as has my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins). I thought we had a very good Committee stage on the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill, with many more Members contributing than is usually the case, and the Minister was generous in dealing with the issues that we raised. I am afraid, however, that although he was generous, he has not managed entirely to reassure me. I still honestly believe that it is common sense simply to delay the implementation of the transition from control orders to TPIMs until the Olympic games have concluded. It is not a matter of the Government losing faith; it is not about backtracking; and it is not about moving away from the original policy, with which, incidentally, as the Minister knows, I do not agree. He seems intent on this policy, but to cope with the extra threat without adding extreme layers of risk into what is already a highly charged situation, he could simply say that the Bill will not come into force until October next year. That would at least get us past the Olympics. If he is not prepared to do that, will he tell us in his winding-up speech why he is not prepared to take that straightforward step?

Another issue was discussed by the hon. Member for New Forest East, but not by other hon. Members. This is the issue of the Prevent review and the role of the Research, Information and Communications Unit, which is dealt with on pages 44 and 45 of our report. The Prevent review was supposed to be published in January this year, but it was not actually published until July. That was too late for us to be able to examine its impact, so it is an issue to which the Committee will return. The Home Secretary promised time for a parliamentary debate on the Prevent review, but it has not yet happened. Will the Minister tell us when that debate will take place?

The key issue is to separate Prevent work, by putting it in the Home Office, from the integration work in the Department for Communities and Local Government. The integration strategy—again, long promised—has not yet materialised. It has been trailed in the press today, and if the press reports are correct, one proposal of the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government is to start a British curry college. I am not quite sure how that fits with an integration strategy, but I am ready to be convinced about the benefits of pakoras, onion bhajis and goodness knows what else! Levity aside, that integration strategy is absolutely key if we are to do the vital work of ensuring that young people feel very much part of British society, so that they cannot be groomed, radicalised and drawn into that world, which, unfortunately, has happened all too often in the past.

I tabled a series of parliamentary questions about the Prevent review, of which the Minister is aware, asking which groups the Government were going to work with, which previously funded groups will no longer be funded because they do not share our democratic values, how we will ensure that groups sign up to democratic values if we are going to work with them in future and what practical work will be done on the ground. I have to say with some regret to the Minister that the answers to my parliamentary questions were entirely unsatisfactory. I would go as far as to say, although not in an insulting way, that the answers were stonewalling. If the ISC occasionally cannot answer questions because of secrecy, the Minister seems to be rather expert at not answering my questions. I did not feel that the questions related to secret matters, so I ask the Minister to revisit my parliamentary questions and provide me with some answers.

The hon. Member for New Forest East talked about the significant budget for the Research, Information and Communications Unit, but we have no way of knowing whether it is appropriate, whether it helps to achieve the objectives that it should or whether further evaluation is necessary. I entirely accept that evaluation of Prevent, RICU, counter-radicalisation and counter-narrative is really difficult. I struggled with these issues when I was the Secretary of State with responsibility for this area of policy, but it is essential that we work on evaluation and know how effective we are at steering young people away from extremism. We must minimise the number of people who, unfortunately, are going to find themselves in this territory. There is nothing more pressing for our country. Heaven forbid that we should have another attack. I was a Minister at the time of 7/7. I feel a great personal responsibility on this agenda. Heaven forbid that another event happens because we have not done enough work to be able to identify people early, to steer them away from extremism, to give them a real sense of British identity and to be part of our community. That is why I press the Minister so heavily on these issues.

I think that the problem of detainees is one of the most significant with which we must deal. The Prime Minister has taken a number of actions: he has set up the Gibson inquiry; he has helped to secure a settlement in the Guantanamo Bay cases; he has issued consolidated guidance on the treatment of detainees; and he has drawn up the measures in the Green Paper. However, I feel that both public reassurance and the reputation and morale in the services are at stake.

Last week, in what I considered to be a groundbreaking speech on secret intelligence, the Foreign Secretary said that

“we also saw allegations of UK complicity in extraordinary rendition leading to torture. The very making of these allegations undermined Britain's standing in the world as a country that upholds international law and abhors torture. Torture is unacceptable in any circumstances. It is abhorrent, it is wrong, and Britain will never condone it.”

I think that every single Member in the House today would support that sentiment. The Foreign Secretary also said:

“As a nation we need to be an inspiring example of the values we hold dear and that we want to encourage others to take up.”

In the past—not when I was a member of it—the Committee has taken evidence about the treatment of detainees and allegations of complicity by our services in the maltreatment of detainees by foreign intelligence agencies. I believe that such matters corrode public trust and internal morale if they are allowed to endure, which is why I think it important for Sir Peter Gibson’s inquiry to be as open and transparent as possible—commensurate, of course, with the protection of our national security.

I want to hear from the Minister when we can get on with the inquiry. I know that there are problems involving police issues and witnesses, but delaying the start of the inquiry’s work and its reassurance of the public can only be damaging. I also know that some people are worried about the inquiry, because they want all the evidence to be published and to be open and transparent, which is a difficult issue. It is the same issue that arises in the justice and security Green Paper about how we should protect information from our allies when national security is at stake.

We are faced with an unenviable choice between completely open inquiries in which key material that would expose our secrets cannot be used and decisions must therefore be based on an incomplete understanding of the facts, and partly closed proceedings in which only members of the inquiry team, or a judge in a court case, have seen the secret material. Closed proceedings are, of course, unsatisfactory, but at least they ensure that decisions are based on all the relevant information. That is the dilemma that must be faced, and the choice that must be made. Do we want open proceedings in which judgments are made in ignorance of the facts, or are we prepared to allow limited, tightly controlled closed proceedings in which it is at least possible to obtain all the information before the person who makes the final judgment?

I do not think that that dilemma can be resolved to the absolute satisfaction of all parties, so compromises will be necessary. That is the real world with which must we deal in relation to security agencies, secret intelligence and the national security of our country. It is always a matter of balancing the risks and making difficult decisions. However, at least in a democracy such as ours, it will be for our elected Parliament to consider some of those matters in future legislation, when there will be the opportunity for a wide-ranging public debate.

In the case of al-Rawi in the Supreme Court, Lord Clarke said that he was not prepared to grant closed proceedings, and that those were matters properly for Parliament to resolve. We, too, need to deal with these issues. I want to hear from the Minister when we will have legislation if he proceeds with the proposals in the justice and security Green Paper. Will there be a separate Bill? Will it be a broad justice Bill? There is an urgent need, and an impetus, for such matters to be resolved.

We have heard a great deal this evening about the Binyam Mohamed case and the control principle. That ground is well established, but it is difficult territory. I commend the Government on the Green Paper, because it takes a great deal of courage to tackle such issues head on. Inevitably, some “voices off” will accuse the Government of being authoritarian and illiberal, while others will claim that they are not protecting information sufficiently to reassure our allies. It is a no-win situation, but at least the Government have gripped it. I merely wish to add my weight and to say, “If we are going to tackle this, let us get on with making it happen.”

We have a range of options. The option that the Government wish to pursue is that of closed proceedings. I well remember, as the Minister who dealt with the control orders legislation, how controversial closed proceedings and special advocates were at that time. That is a departure from our traditional legal system of open, transparent justice, where evidence is presented to the court, tested and cross-examined in front of a judge and a decision is then made. I do not think that we have found a better way of dealing with matters involving secret intelligence however, and although all of us would be reluctant to go down this path as it is not something we would want to do, I cannot see an alternative.

I ask the Minister to consider not only closed material proceedings, but the possibility of the presumption of exclusion in certain classes of cases, as proposed in the public interest immunity option, or the assertion of state secrets—again, that would involve a rebuttable presumption that could be put before the courts. In framing the legislation, it is important that the courts understand what the mischief is that we are trying to deal with, which is exactly what they will look at in respect of statutory interpretation.

I support all the Committee recommendations. I agree that we should look at operations retrospectively, as well as considering policy. The Home Secretary said that she is pondering whether the commissioner might look at the effectiveness of operational policy. My understanding is that the inspectors’ role is to look at compliance with policy and the law. Again, I ask the Minister to think very carefully about this, because the last thing we want is confusion between the role of parliamentary oversight in looking at operational policy and the role of independent oversight.

When I have visited the services and met the men and women—there are both men and women—working on our behalf, I am acutely conscious of the need to develop all our staff so they can achieve their potential. I believe that there are currently too few women at senior levels in our services. I have raised that with the agencies. I do not say that every woman is empathetic or a good listener, but women have skills that are vital to our intelligence services. I am the only woman currently serving on the ISC, and the Chair knows that I am pursuing these issues. It is important that we draw on every bit of talent, knowledge, potential and skill in our services, which includes men and women working together. I ask the Minister to reinforce that message.

I commend the report to the House.