Defence Industry and Shipbuilding

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Wednesday 11th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I am sorry, but I have to make some progress.

What we are highlighting is that across the Chamber we want to see a successful British shipbuilding sector, and we categorically want to see the conclusion of Sir John Parker’s report implemented. He said clearly in recommendation 21 that he wanted to see the opportunity for British shipyards to compete for the fleet solid support ships contract. That is categorically the position of the Ministry of Defence. We want to see a competitive bid from British shipyards. It can be a competitive single bid or a block build option, but we want to see that bid forthcoming. We want that bid to win because that bid is the best, the most cost-effective, the one that offers value to the taxpayer and the one that shows that the confidence we have in our shipbuilding sector is justified and will be maintained.

[Wayne David]

Will the Minister give way?

[Guto Bebb]

I will, as a final point of courtesy, allow my fellow Welshman to intervene.

[Wayne David]

I thank my fellow Welshman for giving way. Does he think it is fair that we could be in a situation with the FSS ships where British companies will be competing with heavily subsidised companies from abroad? Is that a level playing field?

[Guto Bebb]

No, of course it is not, which is why every single tenderer in this process will be subject to the same procurement rules and the same European rules that exist at this point in time, to ensure that we have a level playing field. The hon. Gentleman should understand the importance of ensuring that we have a level playing field. The way to ensure such a level playing field is not to insist on only UK companies being able to bid for what is not a warship.

The strategy has been adopted in full and was consulted on widely. The Ministry of Defence has decided that we have to adopt the strategy and implement it, and we are confident that we will see the success of this strategy and, more importantly, a very successful future for our shipbuilding sector. I look forward to bids coming in for the fleet solid support ships from British yards with the confidence that seems to be lacking from Opposition Members.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House recognises the important contribution of the defence industry to the UK; calls on the Government to support the UK defence industry by taking into account the economic and employment benefits to the UK when awarding contracts and to publish a full, overarching defence industrial strategy; and further calls on the Government to make the competition for the Fleet Solid Support ships contract a UK-only competition to maximise the return on that contract.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Monday 9th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

First, I extend my thanks to the workers of the Rosyth yard for their fantastic work on our carriers. Secondly, the report that has been produced about the contribution of defence to the prosperity of the UK is important, but I return to the point I made earlier: we have adopted all the recommendations of the shipbuilding strategy, and we are already seeing the results.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

We on the Opposition Benches join the Secretary of State in offering our deep condolences to the family of Dawn Sturgess and express our full support for the police as they investigate this appalling incident.

This morning, the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) published an important review titled “Growing the contribution of defence to UK prosperity”. The review was commissioned by the Secretary of State for Defence. It cites the new Type 31e frigate as an example of how the MOD has started to take the prosperity of the British economy into account in procurement. If that can be done with the new frigates, why on earth can it not be done for the fleet solid support ships?

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question but, once again, I refer him back to the shipbuilding strategy, which was endorsed on a cross-party basis. The key thing is that the Type 31e is a frigate and, as such, is designated as a warship. The fleet solid support ships are not designated as warships. We are very clearly following through the shipbuilding strategy, which we think will clearly improve the productivity of our yards and contribute to UK prosperity. The hon. Gentleman should do likewise.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Monday 11th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I could not agree more.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

“Not affordable”, “not realistic”, “not complete”, “unbalanced” and “unmanageable”—those are some of the politer things that have been said about the Government’s equipment plan. The comments have been made not by the Government’s political opponents, but by the Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office. Not since the end of the second world war have there been such devastating criticisms of a Government defence programme.

This £20.8 billion black hole in the MOD’s equipment plan has arisen due to this Government’s shameful incompetence. How do they intend to get out of this mess, and can we look forward to extra resources from the modernising defence programme?

[Guto Bebb]

I would say, at the risk of repeating myself, that the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee do important work for this House, but I should highlight the fact—I have said this once but I will say it again—that the figures quoted in the NAO report were a worst-case scenario. It looked at every single project hitting the worst-case scenario and at no efficiencies whatsoever being created within the programme. We are considering all these issues as part of our modernising defence programme, but I genuinely say to the hon. Gentleman that he should read the report with a bit more care and understand it.

Type 26 Frigates: Base-Porting

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Wednesday 6th June 2018 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

My hon. Friend tempts me to offer an answer now, but I am sure he understands that it would be remiss of me to make such a commitment now, especially as we are still awaiting the completion of the Modernising Defence Programme. However, I stress again that we are looking at the issues seriously, including training, force generation and cost. We will certainly make an announcement before the end of the year. I anticipate that we might be able to make announcements before then, although I would not want my hon. Friend to come away thinking that the intention is to have an early decision. We are trying to ensure that we make a decision based on the facts of the situation, and I assure my hon. Friend that the support that Plymouth is showing for the campaign is being taken on board. Plymouth’s capability and the capacity as a naval base is also understood by the Ministry of Defence. I hope that gives some reassurance, if not the exact dates that he was looking for.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Has the Minister given any consideration at all, on a slightly longer time scale, to where the new Type 31s may be based?

[Guto Bebb]

Ultimately, we are looking very carefully at the rebasing; the fact of the matter is that we are building an enhanced Royal Navy. We will have more surface ships in the Royal Navy than we have had for a long time. We have seen the Royal Navy grow for the first time in a long time. All these decisions are under review. That is why it is important to understand that the decision on the Type 26 is not being taken in isolation. We are making decisions in the context of a growing Royal Navy. I suspect that every Member who has spoken in this debate would welcome the fact that the Royal Navy is growing. The reason for that growth is the new challenges that we face and the demand that we respond to them, and some of those were articulated by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport.

We are aware of the long-standing support offered to the Royal Navy by Plymouth and the Devonport base since 1691. There is a 300-year history. It is very difficult to visit Plymouth without being moved by the contribution that the city has made to the prosperity and the protection of this country over 300 years. Clearly, the size of the estate is unique. It is the largest base of its kind in Europe, stretching over 940 acres, and has more than 100 listed buildings and 3.5 miles of waterfront. This is a base that has been providing support for our Royal Navy for a very long time. That history is clear from visiting the city of Plymouth.

The Government’s commitment is clear: to enhance the Royal Navy—the surface fleet and the submarine fleet. It is important to understand the context of this debate, which is the growth in the Royal Navy. We are committed to building our eight anti-submarine warfare Type 26 frigates. The hon. Gentleman’s support for our export campaigns in Australia and Canada is appreciated. We have run a fantastic campaign in Australia and we are running a fantastic campaign in Canada. The capability of the platforms that we are building, with the support of our fantastic shipbuilders on the Clyde, is something that we take very seriously. It is great to see this unified approach to highlighting the capability of the Type 26.

The contract to build the Type 26 was awarded in June 2017. We have already cut steel and are building the first blocks on HMS Glasgow, which is very good news. Some people have claimed that it is nothing more than a paper ship; any hon. Members who have been to the Clyde will be able to say quite categorically that that is not the case. The work is being undertaken and the quality of the work is excellent.

The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport highlighted the long-term commitment to shipbuilding on the Clyde that that order represents in his comments about the apprenticeships opportunities. The last of the apprentices who will be involved in the Type 26 programme have not yet been born. The Type 26 programme shows our commitment to long-term shipbuilding. I make no apology about the fact that we are also looking at the Type 31e. It is a case of identifying our capability need and what the Navy needs. The Type 31e is welcome from a procurement point of view. It is a general-purpose frigate being built to a cost limit, but it is also a new way of doing procurement.

When I travel around the world in my role—when the parliamentary arithmetic allows such travel to occur—I find it fascinating to see how closely defence departments in other countries are watching our Type 31 procurement. The capability and the cost of the Type 26 are recognised and have been recognised in the debate. Not many countries have the capability or the financial power to purchase such a high level of capability as the Type 26, but they are interested in what we are trying to achieve with the Type 31. The combined effort is showing a degree of confidence in our shipbuilding strategy, but it is also showing a confidence in our Royal Navy.

It is important to highlight that the Type 23 frigates have been and remain a significant part of the activities in Devonport. The decision to base the eight anti-submarine Type 23s in Devonport was correct. That decision has resulted in more coherence in our basing. I share the hon. Gentleman’s admiration for the crews of the Type 23; I have also flown on to Argyll and have enjoyed Thursday war games with the crew. The professionalism and the commitment of the crew was something to behold.

I take exception to the comments that the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport made about defence cuts. We have to acknowledge this issue on a cross-party basis, and it needs to be very carefully articulated, because it contributes to a false impression of what is happening in defence. The Government are committed to increasing defence spending. We have a protected budget of £37 billion. That budget is increasing by half a per cent above inflation year in year out for the lifetime of this Parliament. That commitment needs to be understood.

We talk about cuts, but it is important to put that in context. We are increasing defence spending. The challenge is to manage that increased spending. When we casually use the word “cuts”, we are sending a message—often a false message—that is a reassurance to our opponents and that causes distress and concern for some of the people working in our armed forces. I understand the context in which the comment was made, but I want to put it on record that we are expanding and extending our defence capabilities and are spending more on defence. My own equipment budget is £180 billion over the next 10 years, which by any stretch of the imagination is a significant budget. That includes a £63 billion commitment to enhancing the Royal Navy. I am sure that most Members will acknowledge that that is a significant commitment.

[Guto Bebb]

At the risk of repeating myself, I think the message has been heard loud and clear from the three Members from Plymouth and from other Members. The Ministry of Defence has heard that message. We have to put things in order, because we have to do things in the context of the Modernising Defence Programme, but I assure my hon. Friend and other colleagues that the message about the importance of this decision for Devonport has been understood.

[Wayne David]

Will the Minister give way?

[Guto Bebb]

For the final time, I will.

[Wayne David]

I thank the Minister for his generosity. He talks about cuts, but I would argue that the position is not quite as he painted. Can I infer from what he has said that HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark are now safe?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark are safe until 2033 and 2034, which is the current situation. Those are the decommissioning dates for both vessels.

The situation in Plymouth and Devonport is still a significant success story. I acknowledge that there are challenges, but the activities taking place there—the flag officer sea training, Royal Marines Tamar and the commitment for the new oil jetty that has been built at Thanckes—are commitments and expenditure that highlight the fact that there is a very positive future for the base at Devonport. That positive future is not because we owe anything other than the right decision for the people of Plymouth, but that right decision will reflect the history of service and support that has been offered to the Ministry of Defence and the Royal Navy by the people of Plymouth and the people involved in the bases in Plymouth. We should be very proud of the fact that it is a key component of our defence infrastructure. The continued added investment made by the Ministry of Defence highlights the fact that there is a bright future for the base in Devonport.

I will close by thanking all hon. Members who have contributed to what has been a constructive debate. It is important to put everything into the context of a growing Royal Navy, for the first time in decades—we all welcome that. The context is an enhanced and increasing defence budget, but one that is still challenged, for the reasons that the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport highlighted, such as the changing threat environment.

I stress to all hon. Members, especially the three hon. Members representing the city of Plymouth, that we have heard the message very clearly. That message will be conveyed back to the Department. I look forward to the result of the Modernising Defence Programme and, in due course, a decision being made on the basing of the Type 26 frigates, which are a world-class capability.

Question put and agreed to.

Shipbuilding Strategy

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Wayne David]

That is precisely the concern with including the arbitrary figure of £250 million. I hope that the Minister will be able to dispel those concerns and clarify the situation.

Secondly, the national shipbuilding strategy correctly states that there is a potential export market for light frigates—the Type 31e. Much of that is for the purchase of a light frigate designed for construction in the market, not by means of traditional production. How is the Government’s exporting enthusiasm for that going? How many orders have they received? How many do they now think are likely? That key question was also raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport.

My third point is that, sadly, less than half the steel in the new Type 26s will be British. That is a crying shame, and I hope the Government will ensure that as the shipbuilding strategy develops, it is increasingly seen as an integral part of industrial strategy in this country, and that there will be complementarity with other parts of British industry.

My fourth question is about delays to the Type 26 programme. There is a great deal of concern among the workforce. Apprentices have been laid off and have had to find training elsewhere. Can the Minister say anything about that?

We are all proud to have seen the launch of the Queen Elizabeth carrier, which was formally commissioned into the fleet in December. We now look forward to the launch of the Prince of Wales carrier. The construction and fitting of both vessels has taken a great deal of commitment and dedication from a well-skilled workforce.

It is important to ensure that those skills are not lost but continually put to good use, which is why we should focus on fleet solid support ships. The contract for three new FSS ships will be subject to international competition. The decision is due in early 2020. I am concerned that that stipulation may put off domestic competitors, as the hon. Member for Glasgow South West suggested. That follows the awarding of a contract for four tankers under the military afloat reach and sustainability—MARS—project to Daewoo, a South Korean company that is widely believed to have been given a tremendous amount of state aid that made its bidding far more attractive than it should have been.

We hope that those ships will be built in Britain because that would secure the maintenance of the skills that have been built up in the industry, and support local economies. It would also help to enhance the national shipbuilding strategy’s domestic capability and to make real the renaissance in shipbuilding that Sir John Parker refers to in his report.

On sovereign capability, I ask the Minister to comment on the report that appeared in yesterday’s Western Mail. It suggested that the Ministry of Defence will award a contract for mechanised infantry vehicles to the Germans without any competition. I give the Minister the opportunity to deny that story.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Guto Bebb)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Wayne David]

I will give the Minister plenty of time to respond.

Finally, I hope that the Government will demonstrate a real commitment to the Royal Navy and naval shipbuilding. This country has a proud maritime history—it had the largest and strongest Navy in the world at one time. That time is a long way behind us, but the challenge now is to ensure that our Navy can successfully meet the new threats and dangers that our country faces.

Exiting the EU: Businesses in Wales

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Wednesday 14th December 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. I, too, extend congratulations to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) on securing the debate, and on winning a by-election in Ogmore —a task that was beyond my capacity back in 2002.

This has been a good, detailed debate, but it has been lacking in constructiveness. Its title on the Order Paper is “Effect of exiting the EU on businesses in Wales”, but throughout the debate, an acknowledgement of Wales’s strong position has been sorely lacking. There has been no mention of the fact that, in the past year, Wales has performed extremely well on jobs. On every single measurement of employment, the Welsh performance has been positive, and it has been in the top three of the 12 UK regions and nations. As we debate our exit from the European Union, we are in a strong position, both as regards employment levels and how businesses are performing in Wales. It is a shame that those comments have not been made in this debate.

There has been acknowledgment of the strength of various parts of Welsh industry and of success stories in parts of Wales, but we need to look at the overall performance of the Welsh economy since 2010. Wales’s employment growth has been well above that of the UK as a whole. We have seen unemployment in Wales fall, and I am happy to say that that is because of a constructive relationship between the UK and Welsh Governments. That is something we should hear a bit more about, rather than the scaremongering we hear when people continually ask whether there will be job losses as a result of leaving the European Union.

[Wayne David]

Does the Minister agree that the most disappointing aspect of this debate has been the absence of a single speech from a Conservative party Member of Parliament for Wales?

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention.

Leaving the EU: Wales

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman must understand that initially, in the immediate aftermath of the referendum, the Government gave a commitment to support EU funding up to the autumn statement; but a further Treasury commitment has been made since then. Those letters have been delivered to the Welsh Government. Indeed, I assure the hon. Gentleman that the First Minister of Wales has given a genuine welcome to the Treasury’s commitment to trying to ensure that there is a commitment to the 2020 programmes in a Welsh context. Opposition Members should be aware that in claiming, in contrast with the Labour spokesman, that there is no commitment up to the exit from the EU, they are doing the people of Wales and their constituents a disservice.

[Wayne David]

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that there will be a guarantee, but only for those projects that “meet UK priorities”. That is a qualification, surely.

[Guto Bebb]

It is a terrible thing for hon. Members to speak from a position of lack of knowledge. The commitment that has been given is very clear. Where a project is considered to be a Welsh Government priority it will be accepted by the Treasury as a priority for the UK Government as well. I recommend that Opposition Members read the comments by the Treasury. Some of them have raised the issue of a south Wales metro, and I recommend that they read the comments about that made by the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs yesterday. It will be well worth their while. The Welsh Government need to get on with that project, because if the scheme is in place in good time the money will be forthcoming from the EU. If it is signed off before our exit from the EU, again, the Treasury will give a commitment. Opposition Members peddle scare stories about the commitments we have given. It is important for them to get their facts right.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David]

My right hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. He has tremendous experience in these matters—far greater than I have—and I would certainly bear out what he has said. A common sense way to approach disputes between different legislatures in the United Kingdom is to sit down and talk, and use the established structures, and not resort to expensive, time-consuming legal processes that are very obtuse to most people. That is one lesson to be learned.

We must also learn the lesson that we need a different model. We need a reserved powers model to form the bedrock of our developing devolution settlement in the United Kingdom.

[Guto Bebb]

I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s comments, and to those of the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), who is on the Opposition Front Bench. If the Labour proposal is to move to a reserved powers model, which is clearly the case judging from the arguments presented today, do Opposition Members believe that the report they envisage should look at the consequences for the largest part of the United Kingdom, which is England, because not once has any Opposition Member talked about any potential impact on the English electorate?

[Wayne David]

I have no qualms at all about talking about England, because we are a United Kingdom, but if I deviated from my notes and spoke at length about England, you would take me to task pretty quickly Madam Deputy Speaker.

It is important to recognise that the Local Government Byelaws (Wales) Act was not a one-off. We have seen an attempt—perhaps most significantly, politically—to prevent the Welsh Government from carrying through their legislative plans for the agriculture sector. That is a far more emotive issue, particularly for workers who are directly affected by this Bill—or, as may happen, the lack of it. However, that reinforces the constitutional point that the current situation is unsatisfactory, facing as we do ongoing legal challenges on the basis of politics, rather than, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) said, Members sitting down together where there is a genuine dispute between the two legislatures and working things out.

The conclusion I come to is that we need a system that transcends party politics: a constitutional arrangement that is seen to be fair to everybody, and that respects the integrity of the United Kingdom but also the development of devolution in Wales; a settlement based on a reserved powers model that is far more intelligible to people in Wales, and that will help them to understand far more easily the basis of our devolution arrangements in Wales and the United Kingdom as a whole.

Elections (National Assembly for Wales)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

I am sorry to say that the right hon. Gentleman shows the arrogance of Labour. The Labour party did not create the Assembly. The people of Wales created the Assembly. I accept the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans); the decision of the people of Wales to say yes to the Assembly was based on the offer made. It was not a gift from the Labour party. It was a decision taken by the Welsh people, and the Welsh people are not the same as Welsh Labour. Some Opposition Members should remember that.

To return to the key issue, we are discussing a Green Paper. What surprises me is the fact that the Opposition do not seem to understand the word “consultation”. They do not accept that the document is for consultation. The hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones), for example, highlights the possible difference of opinion between the Assembly Member for Clwyd West and the Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). I have not heard the Minister state his opinion on the issue, but I have seen him present the Green Paper.

I am proud to stand here on behalf of the party that has democratic debate among its members. We are willing to debate the issue and contribute to the Green Paper and consultation, because the issue is of concern to the people of Wales. We are asking whether we want a system similar to that in Scotland, with boundaries for the Scottish Parliament that are not the same as the Westminster boundaries. That question is worthy of discussion. I am the MP for Aberconwy, a constituency that, under the proposals for changes to the Westminster boundaries, will probably disappear into a seat called “North Wales Coast.” We shall see whether that is the ultimate resolution.

There is no doubt but that there was a manifesto commitment to change the Westminster boundaries, and as a result of that commitment, there is an issue as to whether constituency boundaries need to be coterminous. I need to be persuaded that the change is needed, but I am not running away from the debate, because there is a debate to be had. What is disappointing about the discussion so far today is that there seems to be unwillingness even to grasp the need to have that debate.

A key problem is the growing disconnect between the people who elect us and the democratic process. We need to think about that issue carefully. Do people want to elect a Member for Anglesey and Bangor for Westminster and for Anglesey alone for the Assembly? That discussion is worthy of this House and the wider polity in Wales.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

How does the hon. Gentleman explain the fact that the Government have already brought forward a standing order for the delegated legislation procedure that has been agreed by the House, allowing the next Assembly elections to be fought on the existing boundaries?

[Guto Bebb]

I am happy for that issue to be clarified by the Minister in due course.

The key thing, in my view, is that there is a debate to be had. There are disagreements within the parties. I believe that some members of the Labour party would be fairly happy with a change. We have heard a lot from the former Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Torfaen, about the need for two Members to be elected from a single constituency. That view has been talked about this morning. I find it incredible that the Labour party can talk about political advantage and put forward a plan for two Members for one constituency, which would also be a partisan change.

The other thing that I am surprised by this morning is the fact that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned the fact that there were two options in the Green Paper: the status quo and the change to 30:30. In my reading of the Green Paper the status quo is not an option, because option No. 1 is to keep 40 constituencies but to have them equalised. I have some concern about that proposal: one of my key concerns about any changes to the Welsh Assembly is the need to ensure a buy-in to the concept of the Welsh Assembly in all parts of Wales. I represent a constituency in north Wales, including parts of the north Wales coast, and there is often a feeling that Cardiff does not concern itself, or take as much interest in, the affairs of north Wales as those of south Wales and Cardiff in particular. That may or may not be fair. Some past Assembly proposals have led to that perception. However, it is important to point out that equalisation, for example, would probably result in fewer Members from north Wales and west Wales.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful for that intervention; it is an issue that I shall touch on later, but yes, I welcome the fact that the intention is to ensure significant public engagement. However, we have experience in Wales of public consultation in relation to the Assembly that resulted in a pint and a curry and very few people turning up. It is important, therefore, that we have proper consultation on the commission.

Some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) need clarifying. We hear a lot from Opposition Members about the cuts being imposed upon the Welsh Assembly by the Westminster coalition Government, but often those cuts are not placed in any context—no recognition that we face a financial crisis or recognition of the £150 billion deficit this financial year. I do not blame all those things on the previous Labour Government, but to make those comments about the cuts to the Welsh Assembly budget without any recognition of the context is irresponsible.

[Mr David]

My point is simple. Where there is demonstrable need, as in much of Wales, it is morally wrong for this Government, up here in London, to introduce cuts that will impinge upon the lives of ordinary, decent, hard-working people.

[Guto Bebb]

It is interesting to note that the Labour Government in Cardiff Bay were planning for 3% cuts per year for four years, yet, as we saw from the settlement granted by the coalition Government, the actual cut is in the region of 2% per year. That would be manageable in any small or medium-sized business in Wales, so I see no reason why it should not be manageable for the Welsh Assembly Government.

Some Members will have noticed that when the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) was commenting on the boundary changes, indicating, once again, that Wales was being extremely harshly treated, he refused more than once to allow me to intervene. The reason I wanted to intervene was that I was of the opinion that the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) had been promoted to the Opposition Front Bench as a result of his superb understanding of financial matters, because it transpires that he has written in a pamphlet that there is a need to reduce the number of Welsh MPs. However, the shadow Secretary of State for Wales argues otherwise, so now we understand why there has been a change on the Opposition Front Bench. The reason is simply because of disagreements between the two spokespersons.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

Indeed; we should not be surprised by any of the actions taken by the Labour Administration.

[Mr David]

The principle that brought about that change was quite simple. It was that an individual should not stand for two types of seat. Why should they have two bites of the cherry? That would be undemocratic.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the system was changed specifically as a result of pressure within Labour party. There was no call for such change from the Welsh public. It has been argued that change should be made as a result of demand from the Welsh people, and I recollect no such demand.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

That is an interesting clarification, which is contradicted somewhat by an article by one of the Plaid Cymru leadership contenders that appeared in the Daily Post last week, and in which it was stated that the constitutional aspiration of the party of Wales was clear. It was not a very clear statement, I thought.

[Mr David]

In case the hon. Gentleman is thinking of joining the Labour party, may I just tell him that it is full?

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful for that intervention, but the Labour party has no hope of having me as a member.

S4C

Debate between Guto Bebb and Wayne David

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

That is an interesting contribution. The viewing figures are a cause for concern in many ways. There are good reasons to defend some of them, but we have a situation in which occasionally as few as 19% of programmes manage a figure of more than 10,000 during peak time viewing. That is a real concern. As a result, there has been a serious discussion about whether S4C can justify the funding that it receives. I believe passionately that S4C can justify that funding.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in accepting interventions. Whatever we might think about the viewing figures or the funding formulae that have been used in the past, today’s announcement has been made without any consultation whatsoever with S4C. He surely must agree that that is reprehensible and possibly leaves the matter open for a judicial review.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman should possibly allow the Minister to explain what sort of discussions have taken place. If there have been no discussions, I am sure that will be made clear in no time at all.

[Mr David]

What is the hon. Gentleman’s view?

[Guto Bebb]

My view is obviously that any decision of this nature should involve a degree of consultation. We need to be aware of the fact that there is a question mark over the matter, when the viewing figures indicate that the contribution of the channel to the Welsh language is not as important as it should be. So, we are where we are and we need to think carefully about the way forward.