Guto Bebb
Main Page: Guto Bebb (Independent - Aberconwy)Department Debates - View all Guto Bebb's debates with the Wales Office
(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Chris Ruane
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention —the freeze or cut in the public sector has been bad for workers and families in my constituency as well. Parents cannot even plan to pick up their children the following day or week because of zero-hours contracts, which bring no stability or security. Families do not even want to go in for mortgages, because they are not sure about employment in a year’s time, so they are forced to stay in private rented accommodation.
The net impact on families is a hit on their well-being and mental health, which is so unnecessary. Nor is it only the private sector that is extending the use of zero-hours contracts; the public sector is increasingly being hollowed out by the outsourcing of functions that councils used to do in-house to the private sector, the past masters in the use of zero-hours contracts. At the same time, Tory MPs and the press vilify public sector workers for having “gold-plated pensions”, saying they are mollycoddled and cosseted.
The real situation could not be further from the truth. I speak for the 4,500 public sector workers who work for Denbighshire county council and the 4,500 who work for ysbyty Glan Clwyd—teachers, nurses, doctors, social workers, care workers, all doing their best in difficult times. Workers in secure jobs are being forced to become self-employed and to take a hit on their hard-won rights on holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy, and maternity and paternity pay. The rise in the number of self-employed has not resulted in an army of Richard Bransons, Alan Sugars or Nicola Horlicks; it has resulted in workers being thrown from security into insecurity.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
I have listened to the hon. Gentleman with interest, but the way in which he just described self-employment is a disgrace to any politician in north Wales. In my constituency, which has the highest percentage of self-employed people in north Wales, such individuals are making a real difference, creating not only a job for themselves, but jobs in the wider economy. The hon. Gentleman should applaud them, not imply that self-employment is a dark option forced on them by the Government.
Chris Ruane
The hon. Gentleman totally misrepresents me. I am not talking about those small business people who want to go into business or about entrepreneurs, whom I applaud; I am talking about people who were in secure employment but were told, “We’re sacking you now—you can go and get a job in the private sector, which will take away all your rights.” They have been forced into self-employment. Those are the self-employed whom I am talking about. I pay tribute to the Federation of Small Businesses, especially the FSB in north Wales, and I will come on to the CBI in a moment.
The net effect of all that uncertainty, low pay and zero-hours contracts in my constituency is that, according to the citizens advice bureaux, the Vale of Clwyd has the highest level of insolvencies in the whole UK and the highest percentage of people seeking debt advice through the CAB. That is the legacy of five years of Tory rule.
Chris Ruane
I agree entirely. The impact on mental health and well-being can only be detrimental.
Going back to the CBI, I pay tribute to John Cridland. He has made a brave intervention on this matter and I hope the Conservatives heed his wise words.
The next aspect I will look at is the impact of public sector cuts, especially cuts to local government. I have the statistics from the House of Commons Library. English local authorities have had cuts of up to 43%: Kingston upon Thames, Bournemouth, West Berkshire and Brighton and Hove have all had cuts of 43%. Those cuts to local government come from this Tory central Government.
Chris Ruane
No, the hon. Gentleman has had one bite of the cherry.
The cuts that English local authorities have experienced are more than decimation. The same research says that the Welsh Government have largely protected Welsh local authorities from those cuts over the past five years. According to that research, in my own county of Denbighshire there has been an increase in funding of 3% from the Labour Welsh Government. That protection has now ceased, however, as the Welsh Government feel the full impact of a £1.7 billion loss to their budget because of the Tories here in Westminster.
Chris Ruane
No!
Welsh local authorities are implementing cuts that in my county will see the closure of the pest control department, the ending of help with school uniforms for low-income families and the loss of jobs for those who help children with psychological problems. I do not blame the local authorities—not the officers, and not even the Tory councillors. The finger of blame has to point at those at the top of this Conservative Government, who decided that, of all the departments in the UK, local government should have the biggest cuts. They planned for 27% but have implemented 43%.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I turned up to the debate thinking that we would at least have a reasonable discussion of the facts, but what we actually heard was a pre-election rant from the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). That is a real shame because, outside the Chamber, he is often thoughtful and constructive; in the Chamber, however, he becomes blatantly partisan and can see good only within the confines of the Labour party in Wales.
Listening to the hon. Gentleman reeling off the record of significant investment in his constituency, one wonders whether there really is a shortage of money in the Welsh Assembly. If there is, that is probably because the money has been spent in Vale of Clwyd. If nothing else, therefore, we will have to compliment him on his ability to lobby his political colleagues in Cardiff.
The title of the debate is “Employment in Wales”, and any politician who takes themselves seriously should at least acknowledge that the employment figures in Wales are most encouraging.
Mark Tami
Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that, even if we do accept that more jobs are coming in, we are also losing jobs? A few days ago, we had the announcement that 120 jobs were going at the Shotton paper mill. Although I welcome all jobs, replacing those quality, highly skilled jobs with minimum wage jobs is not the same thing.
Guto Bebb
I accept entirely that we would be disappointed to see job losses in any part of Wales. I know full well how the north Wales economy works, and a number of people who work in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency live in mine. People travel to work down the A55 corridor, whether that is from east to west or west to east. Even though the road makes that difficult, I often meet people who work in Chester or in Alyn and Deeside when I am out canvassing. I accept that any job lost is a concern, but it is important to remember that although the Labour party has been highlighting the doom and gloom, and saying that Wales will never recover from public sector job cuts, the number of jobs created in the private sector in Wales has far exceeded the number lost in the public sector.
In that respect, we need to respond to the slur made by the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd regarding Government Members’ attitude towards public sector workers. I have never heard a Government Member criticise anybody who works in the public sector. The one simple point we have made is that we need to have fairness between those who work in the public sector and the majority—even in Wales—who work in the private sector. Do public sector workers have gold-plated pensions? No, they do not in terms of what they get out of their pensions, but in comparison with the situation for somebody in my constituency who is self-employed, “gold-plated” is a fair description. The changes the Government have brought in simply move the balance of pension contributions slightly from the taxpayer to the recipients of the significant pensions in the public sector. The Government’s changes on pensions are to be applauded because they have ensured that we retain a degree of support for those who opt to serve in the public sector, and that support is well beyond what is available to those who work in the private sector.
The hon. Gentleman should remember a simple point: even on trade union figures, the average public sector pension is about £8,000, and that is equivalent to a pension pot of roughly £120,000. If Labour Members do care about people in Wales, they should be aware that the average pension pot for somebody in the private sector in Wales is £30,000. Even the trade union figures still imply that people in the public sector have a fund that is four times more than that of somebody in the private sector, but I see no concern among Labour Members about the situation faced by the vast majority of Welsh workers.
It is important to highlight that Labour Members have said time and time again that there is concern about youth unemployment. What we have seen, however, is that there is a difference between what happens when Labour is in power and what Labour thinks happens when it is in power. In my constituency, for example, youth unemployment has fallen by almost 50% since 2010. That fantastic achievement is the result of this Government’s attitude that people are better off in work than not working. Under the previous Government, youth unemployment went up and the benefits system picked up the strain. Nobody who is young should be on benefits; they should be able to be trained and to get work, and that is exactly what we are seeing in Aberconwy as a result of the Government’s changes.
Susan Elan Jones
It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman is posing as Mr Egalitarian between the public and private sectors. Is he not part of a Government party that spent millions of pounds of our money contesting a court case so that bankers in this country could get extra bonuses? Where does that put him? We are not talking about the difference between the public and private sectors when it comes to ordinary jobs in north Wales, but about a Government who act fundamentally against the interests of people in north Wales when they take such actions.
Guto Bebb
I am constantly amazed at Labour Members’ hatred of the entrepreneurial spirit. The simple fact of the matter is that we need a successful economy to pay for the public services we need. The Labour party has always believed that money derives from thin air; it does not understand how the economy actually works. To have a strong health service, we need a strong economy. To have employment growth, we need a strong economy. To have a strong economy, we need a strong entrepreneurial spirit. This Government understand that simple fact; the Labour party clearly does not.
The key issue we need to look at is employment rates. Employment rates in Wales are notoriously low by UK standards, but they are going in the right direction. I was interested to note from the debate pack that the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd once tabled a question requesting employment figures for north Wales constituencies. Remarkably, in comparison with the glory days of the Labour Government, the employment numbers for all of them are higher than they were when Labour was in power. We hear rhetoric from the Opposition, but when they are in power we always see failure. Everyone in UK politics knows that not once has a failed Labour Administration left government with unemployment lower than it was when they came to power. That has always been true—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) suggests that that is an old chestnut, but he knows that where there is unemployment, there are Labour Members. The eight constituencies represented by the Conservative party in Wales have a lower unemployment rate than the Welsh average. Suffice it to say, the areas of hard-core unemployment are typically represented by the Labour party, which despises enterprise and is not willing to recognise the work that the self-employed do. Labour Members say that they will change things, but vote for exactly the same fiscal position as the Government.
Guto Bebb
I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I will ask him a question. We heard of a litany of cuts that are unacceptable to the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan—[Hon. Members: “Vale of Clwyd.”] I apologise. I would not have expected any such nonsense from the Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns).
The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd gave a litany of complaints about cuts, but I want the shadow Secretary of State to tell us which of the cuts Labour would reverse, because I understand that the Labour party is conducting a zero-sum spending review. That means that there will be no additional spending, and that any cuts that are reversed will be achieved by making cuts to another area of activity. We have been told that local government cuts were the wrong decision—the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd made that very clear—so where, in the zero-sum spending review, would be the right place to cut to make right the local government cuts that he believes were too great?
Alternatively, is all that we are getting from Labour rhetoric? The truth is that when there was a vote last week on spending plans for the forthcoming Parliament, the official Opposition—fair play to them—recognised the reality and voted to support the Chancellor’s view that £30 billion of additional cuts are needed. Labour Members can claim to represent people who are typically of the view that they have been served by that party, but all their rhetoric is trumped by the reality of their support for the Government changing the economy in the right way.
We should be proud of our record on employment and the re-emergence of entrepreneurial spirit in north Wales. We need a continuity of purpose. The dead hand of Labour has damaged Wales time and again and should not be allowed to derail the economic recovery, which is giving hope of full employment in Wales for the first time in a generation.
Simon Hart
Let me make it clear early on that I probably will not give way to the hon. Gentleman, unless I have a sudden attack of good will. That does not mean that I will not give way to anyone, but I will not be persuaded to do so just yet.
We also heard the contradiction of the hon. Gentleman condemning the coalition’s spending proposals in almost the same week that his party voted in favour of them. Is it any wonder that we question the economic literacy of his case when the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer—perhaps the hon. Gentleman will have some comments to make about this—told us not long ago that interest rates would go up when in fact they have done down, that inflation would go up when in fact it has gone down, that fuel prices would go up when in fact they have gone down, and that unemployment would go up when in fact it has gone down? Is it any wonder that when the hon. Gentleman starts pontificating about a gloomy prognosis for Wales, we take it with a pretty big pinch of salt?
Simon Hart
My hon. Friend makes a good point. Sometimes we think that we can get away with saying things in the Chamber because we seem to think that we exist in a bubble and that people are not watching, or listening to and examining the words that we say, whereas in fact, of course, the opposite is the case. That leads me quite neatly to a point that I wanted to make: there is ideology at play here. The Conservative ideology is that we tackle poverty through the creation of jobs and opportunity, yet we heard this morning the Labour ideology that poverty should be tackled simply by swelling the welfare state. If the former is an ideology, I am pretty happy to go along with it, as the route out of poverty is obviously through the creation of jobs. A proper welfare state looks after people who need assistance, not those who simply choose to use it as a lifestyle choice. That is an important ideology, so if an accusation is being pointed at me, I will happily plead guilty to it.
I am offended every time I hear people describe certain jobs in my constituency as somehow unimportant and not proper jobs. I can tell hon. Members that no one feels more patronised than those working in my constituency, whether in agriculture, tourism or engineering, or in a multitude of small and medium-sized businesses, when they hear people from the Labour party describing their jobs as somehow unimportant, unrewarding or unreal. Those jobs are the absolute opposite of those things—they are important.
I remember only too well taking home my first pay packet when I had my first job, which would probably have been described as low-paid, irrelevant and unimportant by one or two Opposition Members. To me, it was the opposite of that. That was the most important moment of my life. The money for that job may not have been as much as I might have got elsewhere, the hours may not have been very special and the terms of my employment may not have been particularly good by today’s standards, but I did not half appreciate it and it put me on the road to a decent work ethic and a hard-working life. That was all because someone gave me the chance to do the job. No one talked down my job in those days, and I do not think that we should talk down people’s jobs today, either.
As we approach the election, it seems to me that Labour’s electoral fortunes depend on fear and failure. It seems that the more fear and failure there is, the more electoral opportunity there is for the Labour party. I find it quite offensive that we should go into an election with one party almost promoting fear and failure as a means to success at the ballot box, and I think that that will reflect badly on it come May.
I put down a challenge to the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd, so I will take an intervention now if he wants to make one. He condemned pretty well everyone, it seemed, for this country’s economic direction, strategy and success, yet the voters’ attitude seems to suggest that there is precious little confidence in his own party leader in terms of the economic future of the country. Opinion polls clearly show more confidence in the Cameron leadership of the country, in terms of its economic direction, than the Miliband leadership. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to comment on the confidence that he has in his own leader in terms of economic competence and the future of the country.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)
It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) on securing this important debate. We have heard a range of contributions. It was certainly interesting to hear that of the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd, although of course my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) highlighted the impact of the dead hand of Labour on the Vale of Clwyd and every other constituency. He also reminded us that Labour signed up to the public spending commitments set out by the Government for the forthcoming years; whenever the Opposition criticise this Administration’s cuts, they must demonstrate which they would make instead of ours.
The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) highlighted the fragility of the private sector in Wales. I challenge some of the points that he made about that fragility, as the private sector is thriving in terms of creating employment, but the greater stability and security that we can offer such businesses will allow the sector to be more robust than ever. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) highlighted a host of contradictions made by some Opposition Members and discussed Labour’s tactic to grow wealth by swelling the welfare state, which is clearly economically illiterate and does not stack up. My hon. Friend was absolutely right.
The hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) focused on welfare reform, and seemed to complain about the benefit cap of £23,000 proposed this morning by the Prime Minister. I remind him that many people in Wales who work hard day in and day out do not earn that much salary. If he does not support a £23,000 benefit cap, the money saved by such a cap would need to be found in cuts elsewhere, which I hope Labour will outline.
The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) covered a range of issues. He seemed to suggest that public sector jobs were good and private sector jobs were bad, which I absolutely reject. He also highlighted the issue of zero-hours contracts. The Government are tackling the abuse of zero-hours contracts, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Labour party itself, and even Labour MPs, use zero-hours contracts. He rightly focused on the living wage and minimum wage. We encourage as many employers as possible to live up to the living wage, but I point out that a number of Labour-run local authorities in Wales do not pay the living wage, and I encourage Labour Members to consider that within their budget plans and affordability measures.
The hon. Gentleman closed on the minimum wage and said that the Labour Government would increase it; I think that the latest policy to which they are committing is £8 an hour. However, a Labour former Cabinet member has highlighted how unambitious that is; even under past projections, by 2020 it will not buy much. If historical increases in the minimum wage were projected forward, they would go well beyond that. In reality, Labour is talking about cutting the minimum wage for hard-working people.
Guto Bebb
Although I aspire for people to be paid more than the minimum wage, it is important when we discuss it not to forget that many of those on the minimum wage pay significantly less tax as a direct result of this Government’s policies to ensure that people keep more of the money that they earn.
Alun Cairns
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making an extremely important and valid point. Some of the data and statistics highlighted by Opposition Members were somewhat selective, and we need to take the totality of Government changes into account; doing so highlights the progress that has been made.
It is also important to remember the context in which this debate is taking place. We need to remember that when Labour came to power in 1997, Wales was not the poorest part of the United Kingdom. Since then, sadly, there has been a complete shift in culture. That is simply illustrated: in a population of 3 million, there are 200,000 people in Wales who have never worked. The Government needed to act. We were simply not prepared to allow the previous trends to continue, whereby, sadly, the economy of Wales was being compared to those of Romania and Bulgaria; whereby parts of Wales were blighted with worklessness; and whereby a third of the working-age populations of some communities were claiming out-of-work benefits.
We have taken key steps to deal with that legacy of worklessness and a welfare system that encouraged dependency. As a Government, we have put in place a long-term economic plan to deal with the situation that we inherited—in 2010, Wales was, sadly, the poorest part of the UK. That fact will always come back to haunt Opposition Members. They talk about wealth, prosperity and growth, but they left Wales as the poorest part of the UK, despite receiving in 1997 an economy that meant Wales was not the poorest part of the UK.
We developed a plan to stabilise the country’s economy, to deal with years of financial mismanagement under the last Labour Government and to get the people of Wales and Britain back to work. That long-term economic plan is paying dividends. It surprises me that during the last hour or so I have listened to Opposition Members playing down the progress of the labour market in their constituencies.
For example, in the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd’s constituency, unemployment more than doubled between 2005 and 2010; there was a rise of 105% under the last Administration. Since 2010, unemployment in Vale of Clwyd has dropped by a third. Surely he welcomes that as a positive outcome.